Making a Gandalf (kinda)

[Blackhawk748]

Im gonna be DMing for a group of low experienced players, i rolled up random characters for them so they could all try something new and i plan on making an NPC that can "pull a Gandalf" and rescue them if they really need it, as one of them has a tendency to die. so heres the build right now

Sorcerer 4/ Monk 1/Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 7

Feats:
1st (,Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (quarterstaff)
3rd Dodge
Bonus Feat: Stunning Fist
6th Ascetic mage
Bonus Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Bonus Feat: Quick Staff
9th Practiced Spellcaster
12th Craft Contingent Spell

So at ECL 13 he has a Caster lvl of 10, with an effective CL of 13, so he has 4th level spells and a BaB of +10 with an effective monk lvl of 5 which gets him an extra +1 AC and will have his Ki Focus Quarterstaff doing 1d8 and has Cha to AC.
So right now i need some recommendations for spells to help pull the party out of the fire. Right now i was thinking Stone Shape, Wall of Fire, Scintillating Sphere, Shield (for Himself) and Haste.

NOTE: In this particular setting there are no wizards and all casters use Bard Progression, so the Spellcasting Prereq for Eldritch knight is dropped to 2nd lvl spells.

[Ansem]

How will you enter with Sorcerer 4 when you need access to 3th level spells?

Ahh I forgot the note.

[Tanuki Tales]

In before "Gandalf was a sixth level character" debate.

:smalltongue:

In all seriousness, this guy doesn't qualify for Eldritch Knight because of:


Weapon Proficiency

Must be proficient with all martial weapons.

So, you should probably switch that Monk level for a Fighter level.

[Yuki Akuma]

In before "Gandalf was a sixth level character" debate.

No, no, Gandalf is an angel. So he's obviously a Solar.

[Blackhawk748]

oh derp i forgot Martial Proficiency gives me one lol guess he gets a fighter lvl

[Xerlith]

Are you playing Pathfinder or 3.5? A PF Paladin would be awesome. And if you're making a Gandalf, go towards the Divine magic part, not Arcane.

ALternatively- a Swordsage might be better than Monk in your build. As would be Jade Phoenix Mage.

[Blackhawk748]

Its 3.5, and i just felt that Arcane Magic fit better

Well i know that swordsage is good, but i really dont want to upstage my players that much

[The Insanity]

inb4 DMPCs are bad and you should feel bad.

[Blackhawk748]

i run DMPCs all the time, usually they're the same level and are just my PC, in this case he is just there to prevent TPK via bad rolls/ bad decisions. Im not gonna have him walk with the party the whole time. Think Gandalf from The Hobbit

[Serafina]

I'd go with a Elven Staff Magus and use Hexcrafter to grab Prehensile Hair. Use your "Hair" appendage for casting, the Staff for defense and maybe tripping (with some feat investment) and your sword (proficiency gained from being an elf) for actual melee.


That gives you pretty much Gandalfs fighting style from the movies.
Sure, you are not as good at casting than a full Wizard - but you actually CAN get higher-level spells from 10th level onward, by putting them into your Staff and recharging it from your Arcane Pool. And it's not like Gandalf was throwing around fireballs.


.....neverwind, didn't notice that this was for 3.5. Still posted because it might interest others.

[The Insanity]

i run DMPCs all the time, usually they're the same level and are just my PC, in this case he is just there to prevent TPK via bad rolls/ bad decisions. Im not gonna have him walk with the party the whole time. Think Gandalf from The Hobbit
Ya, I got that. It was a joke.

[Benthesquid]

In before "Gandalf was a sixth level character" debate.


Gandalf soloed a Balrog at melee range.

[Phelix-Mu]

Gandalf is a celestial under the effects of Change Shape. Give him a magic sword and a staff that can cast light. Bam. Done.

Personally, I'd suggest something pretty high-caliber as the base for the celestial, but short of solar or planetar, methinks. Maybe one of the mid-rank devas? I've always been fond of astrals and movanics. If you are into porting 2e stuff, a high-HD agathinon might be even more appropriate. You just need to finagle a way to get Change Shape if whatever you pick doesn't have it, and a way to keep the right set of abilities while under the Change Shape.

This is a good way to approach it because

1.) In the lore, Tolkien wizards are actually more like celestials than D&D wizards.

2.) SLAs are a better approximation of how they actually seem to use their powers than prepared/spontaneous spells (especially the requirement to rest).

3.) Gandalf (and all of the maia) are pretty scary in melee. Actually, scratch that; every old person in Tolkien is scary in combat. Outsider HD nicely simulates this with a.) large HD, and b.) high BAB. Also, all good saves.

[TheDarkSaint]

Bad decisions should have bad consequences. What happens if the PC's figure out he's always there to save them? I think it is actually better to fudge/cheat on the dice as a DM rather than saving them with a DMPC. Regardless of intentions, if he is powerful enough to get them out of bad situations, he's going to be able to pretty much outshine them.

Why not have someone weaker accompany them who through dumb luck helps out? Could be a comic relief who always seems to get beat up or take the heavy hit. It would be even cooler if you directed devastating attacks on the NPC and the others started to feel sorry for him and work to defend him.

I say let them make their mistakes. Often, it's the only way to learn.

[Tanuki Tales]

Gandalf soloed a Balrog at melee range.

*whoosh*

Stupid 10char.

[The Insanity]

Bad decisions should have bad consequences. What happens if the PC's figure out he's always there to save them? I think it is actually better to fudge/cheat on the dice as a DM rather than saving them with a DMPC. Regardless of intentions, if he is powerful enough to get them out of bad situations, he's going to be able to pretty much outshine them.
Have you seen/read Lord of The Rings?

[Phelix-Mu]

Much is made of the problem of DMPC. I think it's largely overblown. As I see it, there is a strong emphasis in 3.5 for a character-centered campaign, individuals that forge their own destinies, blah blah blah. It's a good kind of dynamic, and one that allows players to feel more invested in a given character (along with the intricate set of character-building mechanics that are oft-overemphasized on internet boards).

But, that said, the "mentor/elder" motif in storytelling is an iconic archetype. It's less-than-handwave to come up with a reason "Gandalf" won't outshine the characters. Unless the characters really are the strongest people in the world, there are likely a host of powerful npcs that, for one reason or another, aren't doing the pc's work for them.

As to the Gandalf example specifically, the whole point of Gandalf being there was that he knew that he was not the one to save the day. He passed the test of the One Ring, but only barely. He was fit to guide it's bearer, but not to bear it himself. Conceit of the story, you say? Well, welcome to DMing. The whole thing is to make the conceit hard to see, which is largely down to sleight of hand.

Another part of the Gandalf thing was that he didn't make it all the way. A key part of the DMPC concept is that a mentor/elder can't be there all of the time. At some point, the party loses the training wheels, graduates, or what have you, and they have to make do on their own.

[Benthesquid]

*whoosh*


Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that blue text is used to imply humor or sarcasm. I'm also of the opinion that one shouldn't introduce a subject if one doesn't wish to have it discussed.

[Tanuki Tales]

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that blue text is used to imply humor or sarcasm. I'm also of the opinion that one shouldn't introduce a subject if one doesn't wish to have it discussed.

I reiterate:

*whoosh*

[Benthesquid]

I reiterate:

*whoosh*

On reflection, I have nothing to say to you that wouldn't violate one or more forum rules, so good day.

[Gnaeus]

Much is made of the problem of DMPC. I think it's largely overblown.

Another part of the Gandalf thing was that he didn't make it all the way. A key part of the DMPC concept is that a mentor/elder can't be there all of the time. At some point, the party loses the training wheels, graduates, or what have you, and they have to make do on their own.

On the contrary, I would say that it is radically understated. There is never a use for a DMPC which could not be handled better with another method. No. Not even then.
Never.

Another part of the Gandalf thing is that Writing a novel is different than running a game. Using a Mary Sue god proxy (or in the case of Gandalf, not even a proxy) in a book is nothing but weak writing. A a DM it is about the worst decision you can make.

Even a DMPC which is played responsibly by an excellent DM is still a Campaign bomb waiting to go off, and there is never a time when this is not true.

[Blackhawk748]

Bad decisions should have bad consequences. What happens if the PC's figure out he's always there to save them? I think it is actually better to fudge/cheat on the dice as a DM rather than saving them with a DMPC. Regardless of intentions, if he is powerful enough to get them out of bad situations, he's going to be able to pretty much outshine them.

Why not have someone weaker accompany them who through dumb luck helps out? Could be a comic relief who always seems to get beat up or take the heavy hit. It would be even cooler if you directed devastating attacks on the NPC and the others started to feel sorry for him and work to defend him.

I say let them make their mistakes. Often, it's the only way to learn.

Now i get bad decisions get bad stuff, thats how i DM, but its not really their decision making thats the problem, its his luck. I have never seen someone roll so many times below a 5, and thats what gets him into trouble. Now i can fudge my dice rolls, and i do, but i cant save him from his own terrible rolls, except maybe by having some back up.

Now im not gonna have "Gandalf" come flying in to save the day every time, thats stupid. Ill let them try whatever they can think of to get out of the problem, and im confident that they should be fine. He's gonna be my final resort my "they are going to die if i dont do something" button, and there will be times where i wont send him in to save them, i just dont want them dying for a stupid reason, like someone rolled a 1 on a random check or something equally stupid.


On the contrary, I would say that it is radically understated. There is never a use for a DMPC which could not be handled better with another method. No. Not even then.
Never.

Another part of the Gandalf thing is that Writing a novel is different than running a game. Using a Mary Sue god proxy (or in the case of Gandalf, not even a proxy) in a book is nothing but weak writing. A a DM it is about the worst decision you can make.

Even a DMPC which is played responsibly by an excellent DM is still a Campaign bomb waiting to go off, and there is never a time when this is not true.

I take it you had really bad experiences with DMPCs

[The Insanity]

Ima precog or somethin'.


Even a DMPC which is played responsibly by an excellent DM is still a Campaign bomb waiting to go off, and there is never a time when this is not true.
Except when it is.

[Tanuki Tales]

On reflection, I have nothing to say to you that wouldn't violate one or more forum rules, so good day.

Someone obviously is having a bad day and I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm also sorry that you obviously don't know the joke that Yuki did get.

[Drachasor]

Why not just make a straight-up Warlock? I think that can easily be made to handle everything you want. Since they aren't too powerful, they also allow the players to shine more easily. Blind/Nauseated and other effects are good for shutting down enemies.

[Blackhawk748]

Why not just make a straight-up Warlock? I think that can easily be made to handle everything you want. Since they aren't too powerful, they also allow the players to shine more easily.

That might work, and they are pretty gish-like already, they feel like a mage, though they are more limited. Are there any invocations that can make walls?

[XmonkTad]

Rather than a handholding DMPC consider one time use magic items of things like DDoor, wall of fire, and heal. Just give the most experienced player a few skull talisman of X's. If you really want to protect them, have them carry the talismans in their pocket and when something too big for them to handle starts beating on them have a talisman "serendipitously" break, and thusly save them.

[Blackhawk748]

I was actually going to do that, i was gonna have the above character make them a contigent acorn, and when they broke it something would happen, like dimension door or whatever.

[Drachasor]

That might work, and they are pretty gish-like already, they feel like a mage, though they are more limited. Are there any invocations that can make walls?

Call of the Beast (Complete Mage, Talk to/Command Animals)
Chilling Tentacles (Complete Arcane) or Caustic Mire (Complete Mage) are good for some crowd control.
Wall of Perilous Flame makes a Wall of Fire. (Complete Arcane)
Wall of Gloom makes a wall that can stop 6HD or lower creatures and blocks sight. (Complete Arcane)

There's a fair bit of other stuff. Granted they are more limited, but that also means they are easier to stat up and run. Also, less likely to completely overshadow the party.

[Angelalex242]

Best way to judge Gandalf:Since Balrog=Balor, you need him to be able to solo a Balor. Think of all the stuff he needs to do that. Then realize the Balor killed him too, so he needs to be about drawn with a Balor in single combat.

Balor click to see monster


Size/Type:
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)

Hit Dice:
20d8+200 (290 hp)

Initiative:
+11

Speed:
40 ft. (8 squares), fly 90 ft. (good)

Armor Class:
35 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 28

Base Attack/Grapple:
+20/+36

Attack:
+1 vorpal longsword +33 melee (2d6+13/19-20)

Full Attack:
+1 vorpal longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (2d6+13/19-20) and +1 flaming whip +30/+25 melee (1d4+6 plus 1d6 fire plus entangle); or 2 slams +31 melee (1d10+12)

Space/Reach:
10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with +1 flaming whip)

Special Attacks:
Death throes, entangle, spell-like abilities, summon demon, vorpal sword

Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing

Saves:
Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +19

Abilities:
Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26

Skills:
Bluff +31, Concentration +33, Diplomacy +35, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Hide +26, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Listen +38, Move Silently +30, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Spot +38, Survival +7 (+9 following tracks), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls)

Feats:
Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (telekinesis), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword)

Environment:
A chaotic evil-aligned plane

Organization:
Solitary or troupe (1 balor, 1 marilith, and 2-5 hezrous)

Challenge Rating:
20

Treasure:
Standard coins; double goods; standard items, plus +1 large vorpal longsword and +1 large flaming whip

Alignment:
Always chaotic evil

Advancement:
21-30 HD (Large); 31-60 HD (Huge)

Level Adjustment:
—

A balor stands about 12 feet tall. Its skin is usually dark red. It weighs about 4,500 pounds.

Combat

Balors love to join battle armed with their swords and whips. If they face stiff resistance, they may teleport away to loose a few spell-like effects at the foe.

A balor’s +1 flaming whip is a long, flexible weapon with many tails tipped with hooks, spikes, and balls. The weapon deals bludgeoning and slashing damage, in addition to fire damage.

A balor’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Death Throes (Ex)

When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Entangle (Ex)

A balor’s +1 flaming whip entangles foes much like an attack with a net. The whip has 20 hit points. The whip needs no folding. If it hits, the target and the balor immediately make opposed Strength checks; if the balor wins, it drags the target against its flaming body (see below). The target remains anchored against the balor’s body until it escapes the whip.

Spell-Like Abilities

At will— blasphemy (DC 25), dominate monster (DC 27), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 23), unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—fire storm (DC 26), implosion (DC 27). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Vorpal Sword (Su)

Every balor carries a +1 vorpal longsword that looks like a flame or a bolt of lightning.

Summon Demon (Sp)

Once per day a balor can automatically summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrous, or one nalfeshnee, glabrezu, marilith, or balor. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

Flaming Body (Su)

The body of a balor is wreathed in flame.

Anyone grappling a balor takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round.

True Seeing (Su)

Balors have a continuous true seeing ability, as the spell (caster level 20th).

Skills

Balors have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.


Now that we know what Gandalf has to be able to kill (as Gandalf the Grey, mind you. He gets an upgrade as Gandalf the White...)

We might then conclude Gandalf is a shapechanged Planetar as Gandalf the Grey, and gets upgraded to shapechanged Solar as Gandalf the White. Yes, that means Saruman is a corrupted Solar (he was originally the White, after all...) Radagast, being nature boy, is a shapechanged Leonal. The Blue Wizards are probably shapechanged Ghales, Astral Devas, or Trumpet Archons. One of 'em.

Sauron himself? He's an Infernal out of the ELH.

[icefractal]

If you want to avoid overshadowing everyone, but still be able to have this NPC save the day when required, you could focus on escape-oriented spells. For example - walls, fogs, speed/flight buffs, teleportation, illusions, meat-shield summoning.

Would also explain why he's strong enough to help them in this case, but not involving himself more with their (presumably important) quests. He's a paranoid mage, great at escaping danger, not so great at charging into it.

[bekeleven]

what works on the page doesn't always work in a campaign. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=910)

[Phelix-Mu]

To be fair, I always got the impression that Shadowfax, a king among horses, got the other horses to run faster as well (not to mention longer)....

OMG. SHUT THE DOOR. I am now going to build a horse that is a bard! Why did I never think of this before??!!

[bekeleven]

To be fair, I always got the impression that Shadowfax, a king among horses, got the other horses to run faster as well (not to mention longer)....

OMG. SHUT THE DOOR. I am now going to build a horse that is a bard! Why did I never think of this before??!!

I just assumed he was an Asperi, with an option on Legendary horse, both from the MM2.

[Phelix-Mu]

I just assumed he was an Asperi, with an option on Legendary horse, both from the MM2.

There was an even better 2e monster, I think, that was basically just a total ripoff of Shadowfax and the other mythic horses from his line. Equaas or something? Oh my, that is quite the dusty archive I am attempting to access. Basically, they were just children of the horse god, and had some plane-hopping ability or something.

Personally, my favorite equine creature is the ecalypse (Manual of the Planes). A very, very nice bit of flavor and mechanic, even if it is a bit temperamental.

[EugeneVoid]

If your a DM, why don't you just built Gandalf as a Sorcerer Paladin with a bunch of Outsider Hit Dice.
He'll be tough, strong in melee.
He'll cast rudimentary "magic."
He'll make his allies immune to fear.
He'll have a magical horse.

[Osiris]

Gandalf isn't really a "wizard"
Things about Gandalf
1 He dual-wields his staff and his sword. A wizard with a sword. Mhmm.
2 He has a horse- maybe paladin mount? Dunno.
3 Spells he casts: ghost sound, animal messenger, shatter, daylight. Most of these require his staff. In addition, he has a staff of Produce Flame and light (centered on top of staff).

Yeah. . . Not really a wizard, IMO.
Suggested build: Paladin 5, Wizard 3, dunno about Animal Messenger.

Oh, and 4 He has a cool hat and cloak.

[Blackhawk748]

Well i said "kinda" about making Gandalf lol i just want him to fill the same general role Gandalf did, so a gish and mentor character.

[Drachasor]

A Bard is another really good option. Since they can buff up the players.

If you don't wank singing, that's easy enough to avoid. Just fluff it as a mysterious and subtle power. Lots of ways to build a bard to be really great at this stuff.

[ahenobarbi]

NOTE: In this particular setting there are no wizards and all casters use Bard Progression, so the Spellcasting Prereq for Eldritch knight is dropped to 2nd lvl spells.
Why would anyone pick Sorcerer rather than Bard?

[Blackhawk748]

Well more spells per day is one, i believe sorcerers also learn more spells and a better spell list

[The Insanity]

Why would anyone pick Sorcerer rather than Bard?
Flavor? aaaaaaa