Improving a Gray Renderer

[Jgosse]

I am giving a 20th level npc a Gray Renderer Cohort and I need to decide weather I should just give him 3 extra monster hit die or if I should give him class levels. If I give him class levels should i just go fighter 2 barbarian 1 or something else?

[Fouredged Sword]

It is listed as advancing by racial HD, so I would do that unless there is something special about this grey render.

[Canine]

Dungeonscape has the Beast Heart Adept prestige class, which eventually allows you to take a Gray Render as a monstrous companion (like animal companion), that might give you some ideas. Otherwise just decide how powerful you want it to be and use that to figure out if it needs MHD or class levels.

[Jgosse]

It is listed as advancing by racial HD, so I would do that unless there is something special about this grey render. raised by a Dwarf who became a king , Is the kings pet/bodyguard.


Dungeonscape has the Beast Heart Adept prestige class, which eventually allows you to take a Gray Render as a monstrous companion (like animal companion), that might give you some ideas. Otherwise just decide how powerful you want it to be and use that to figure out if it needs MHD or class levels.

well I want to give it armor, as it has no dex I was thinking full plate so I was thinking class levels best way to give it proficiency.

[Red Fel]

I am giving a 20th level npc a Gray Renderer Cohort and I need to decide weather I should just give him 3 extra monster hit die or if I should give him class levels. If I give him class levels should i just go fighter 2 barbarian 1 or something else?

Step one, we have to decide how your NPC has his Gray Render. Are you saying he simply has the Gray Render, the way a King may have servants without taking Leadership, or does this NPC have a Gray Render as a Cohort pursuant to Leadership? The former is fine for an NPC, so if that's the case, skip step one; if the latter, we have to calculate the NPC's Leadership score to determine the base level of his cohort. His Leadership score will be his base level plus his Cha modifier, plus any additional bonuses from being an awesome ruler. Since he's level 20, his Cohort is at least level 14, plus any Cha modifier. A Gray Render has a cohort LA of +5, which gives you at least 9 levels with which to play.

Step two, playing with a Gray Render. Since it has an Int of 3, it is eligible to take class levels, although not spellcasting classes. According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm), its ability scores are Str 23, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 8.

Given that Int and Cha are basically its dump stats, let's steer away from those. Let's also steer away from any skill-oriented classes, since its hideous Int basically keeps it from learning anything.

Fighter and Barbarian are solid choices. Particularly Barbarian. Let's look at what you could do.

You could give it the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian ACF. At level 1, you replace Fast Movement with Pounce, letting your precious pet do full attack on a charge - that's its bite and two claws, until you teach it to fight with weapons. Next, give it the Spell Sense ACF, and swap out the useless-to-a-Gray-Render trapsense for a more practical bonus against spells. By level 9, your precious has +9/+4 BAB (which means it's probably still better off with its natural weapons), some feats, Pounce, Rage 3/day, Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 1/-, and Spell Sense +3.

Or go with Fighter. I'd give the first-level Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip anyhow, but then switch to Fighter 8. Don't bother with weapons; have your pet take Multiattack to reduce the to-hit penalty on its natural weapons, maybe Improved Natural Attacks to increase its damage dice. After that, simply decide what your Gray Render is doing in combat.

For example, if it's a bodyguard, give it feats like Stand Still which let it stop things from getting near you. If it's more of an enforcer, you might want to make it into an offensive machine. Power Attack is an option, or if it's charging a lot, perhaps Powerful Charge to add to its damage. The nice thing about Fighter is how customizable it is.

[Know(Nothing)]

Stand Still is good, but for a Large or larger creature, Large and in Charge is a better choice. Instead of trading your AoO damage to stop them, you damage them and make opposed strength checks to stop them. Pump his strength, increase his reach, and nothing should get anywhere near it or you without extra effort.

War Hulk class levels are fun too, as are Hulking Hurler.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would be tempted to go warhulk as well. He would be very good at grabbing targets and pulling them into a grapple, then rending them. Hit bite would hit multiple targets each swing, and everything he hit would be pulled into a grapple, taking the rending damage.

[Jgosse]

Step one, we have to decide how your NPC has his Gray Render. Are you saying he simply has the Gray Render, the way a King may have servants without taking Leadership, or does this NPC have a Gray Render as a Cohort pursuant to Leadership? The former is fine for an NPC, so if that's the case, skip step one; if the latter, we have to calculate the NPC's Leadership score to determine the base level of his cohort. His Leadership score will be his base level plus his Cha modifier, plus any additional bonuses from being an awesome ruler. Since he's level 20, his Cohort is at least level 14, plus any Cha modifier. A Gray Render has a cohort LA of +5, which gives you at least 9 levels with which to play. his Leadership score is 28 so he can have a level 18 cohort now I thought with the LA5+10MHD i would only get 3 more levels to play with for ECL 18 Cohort


Step two, playing with a Gray Render. Since it has an Int of 3, it is eligible to take class levels, although not spellcasting classes. According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm), its ability scores are Str 23, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 8.

Given that Int and Cha are basically its dump stats, let's steer away from those. Let's also steer away from any skill-oriented classes, since its hideous Int basically keeps it from learning anything.

Fighter and Barbarian are solid choices. Particularly Barbarian. Let's look at what you could do.

You could give it the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian ACF. At level 1, you replace Fast Movement with Pounce, letting your precious pet do full attack on a charge - that's its bite and two claws, until you teach it to fight with weapons. Next, give it the Spell Sense ACF, and swap out the useless-to-a-Gray-Render trapsense for a more practical bonus against spells. By level 9, your precious has +9/+4 BAB (which means it's probably still better off with its natural weapons), some feats, Pounce, Rage 3/day, Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 1/-, and Spell Sense +3.

Or go with Fighter. I'd give the first-level Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip anyhow, but then switch to Fighter 8. Don't bother with weapons; have your pet take Multiattack to reduce the to-hit penalty on its natural weapons, maybe Improved Natural Attacks to increase its damage dice. After that, simply decide what your Gray Render is doing in combat.

For example, if it's a bodyguard, give it feats like Stand Still which let it stop things from getting near you. If it's more of an enforcer, you might want to make it into an offensive machine. Power Attack is an option, or if it's charging a lot, perhaps Powerful Charge to add to its damage. The nice thing about Fighter is how customizable it is.

I would probably want to go for a heavy damage option as later he will be fighting along side the king and the PC against a massive army.

[Zombulian]

All I imagined was a computer program that rendered all color graphics to black and white. A gray renderer.

[lunar2]

it's got a racial wisdom bonus, make it a cleric. its deity is its master (cleric of a cause), with some appropriate domains./joke

nah, warhulk is good. you don't have enough free levels to be an effective caster. also, remember you can change its feats, too.

[Know(Nothing)]

Monster of Legacy template fits pretty thematically, I believe.

[lunar2]

ooh, i just remembered something. NPCs don't have LA. LA is specifically for PCs and the cohorts of PCs. you have 5 more levels to work with.

i'd still say warhulk 8.

[Jgosse]

ooh, i just remembered something. NPCs don't have LA. LA is specifically for PCs and the cohorts of PCs. you have 5 more levels to work with.

i'd still say warhulk 8.

in this case where it is a cohort and the Gray Renderer LA is specifically a a cohort LA would that not still apply?


I would be tempted to go warhulk as well. He would be very good at grabbing targets and pulling them into a grapple, then rending them. Hit bite would hit multiple targets each swing, and everything he hit would be pulled into a grapple, taking the rending damage.
I was looking at class levels for the proficiencies as much as the strength boost.

Stand Still is good, but for a Large or larger creature, Large and in Charge is a better choice. Instead of trading your AoO damage to stop them, you damage them and make opposed strength checks to stop them. Pump his strength, increase his reach, and nothing should get anywhere near it or you without extra effort.

War Hulk class levels are fun too, as are Hulking Hurler.

Hulking Hurler seems like it would be a fun visual. He could just scoop up soldiers and throw them away.

[gorfnab]

A level of the Soul Eater prestige class would be an interesting option for a grey render.

[D-naras]

Actually RAW the Render counts as a 15 lvl Cohort. 10 for it's Hit dice and +5 Level adjustment. So by the book you can add another 3 levels or hit dice to it and stay withing the rules. Since this is for an NPC though, and you are the DM you don't have to stay rules legal for this.

If you want to do this RAW, I suggest adding monk levels to it. First off, you may use another array to change the monster's ability scores. Put some in Wisdom to increase it's AC. You get +3 to all saves, evasion, Wisdom to AC, Improved Unarmed Strike, +2 to Will vs enchantments, 1d8 unarmed strike damage, +10 ft of movement, flurry of blows and your choice of either Stunning Fist (free save or suck in this case) or Improved Grapple (Gray Renders are natural grapplers) and Combat Reflexes (good with reach) or Deflect Arrows. You can flurry for 2 unarmed strikes at 1d8+Strength, followed by all natural attacks as usual plus Improved Grab if you get to bite someone. Plus, the Render gets to be quite more durable with Wis to AC, +3 to all saves and evasion. If you spend gold on it, it gets even better.

[lunar2]

in this case where it is a cohort and the Gray Renderer LA is specifically a a cohort LA would that not still apply?


I was looking at class levels for the proficiencies as much as the strength boost.


Hulking Hurler seems like it would be a fun visual. He could just scoop up soldiers and throw them away.

1. nope, ECL is specifically meant for PCs. the only thing that matters about NPCs is CR and HD.

2. with a gray render's low BAB, simply boosting your natural weapons is going to be a better route than worrying about weapons. you get three attacks, use them. gos traight into warhulk, put your highest stat into strength, and go to town. if you really want armor proficiencies, 1 level of barbarian is fine. that get's you medium, which covers your mithril full plate. but seriously, pump your strength with warhulk and go to town.

3. hulking hurler is nice, but if he's the pet of a dwarf king, he'll likely be spending most of his time underground, in relatively cramped spaces. in that environment, melee is better. i'd say take one level of hulking hurler for really throw anything, but don't worry about the next two levels.

[Jgosse]

1. nope, ECL is specifically meant for PCs. the only thing that matters about NPCs is CR and HD.

2. with a gray render's low BAB, simply boosting your natural weapons is going to be a better route than worrying about weapons. you get three attacks, use them. gos traight into warhulk, put your highest stat into strength, and go to town. if you really want armor proficiencies, 1 level of barbarian is fine. that get's you medium, which covers your mithril full plate. but seriously, pump your strength with warhulk and go to town.

3. hulking hurler is nice, but if he's the pet of a dwarf king, he'll likely be spending most of his time underground, in relatively cramped spaces. in that environment, melee is better. i'd say take one level of hulking hurler for really throw anything, but don't worry about the next two levels.

so what your saying is just because he is an NPC he can have a cohort who is effectively 3 levels higher then he is? where would I find this ? I know for advancing a monster each appropriate CL adds one to it's cr, so a Render cr8 +8 barbarian levels would be CR 16 but this is not intended to be a party encounter but an Allie.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm a big fan of sticking on a couple of ToB levels on piles of HP like the gray render. Since half of their racial HD will count as initiator levels, they can pick up some decent maneuvers with only two levels of Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader.

[lunar2]

so what your saying is just because he is an NPC he can have a cohort who is effectively 3 levels higher then he is? where would I find this ? I know for advancing a monster each appropriate CL adds one to it's cr, so a Render cr8 +8 barbarian levels would be CR 16 but this is not intended to be a party encounter but an Allie.

doesn't matter if it's an enemy or ally, ECL is exclusively for the PCs and their cohorts. NPCs don't even need to to take the leadership feat. it is also something meant for PCs. and no, a grey render x 8 is not 3 levels higher than a 20th level NPC, it is 2 levels lower. it only has LA if it is a PC or PCs cohort. for NPCs, LA does not exist. it is perfectly fine for your CR 20 NPC to have a CR 15 pet.

[Yogibear41]

It has an INT of 3, so while it advances by racial hit die it is smart enough to gain class levels. What you have to ask yourself is whether or not the dwarf took the time to actually teach it anything, or have someone teach it something, if not then just monster hit die.

[PraxisVetli]

Black blood cultist?