(PF) Battlefield Control Class

[M@XIM]

Hello, starting a new PF game and we're likely starting at level 1 (sadface). We've all been playing 3.5e so it's a little new for us.

So far we're looking at:
A Summoner who will be as OP as he possibly can be
A Battle Cleric/Healing/Tank of some kind
A (hopefully) Cavalier

There will be several others who haven't decided. Most of them will likely focus on Melee and/or SkillMonkey. One will likely be a Caster/Blaster.

I personally want to focus on Battlefield control and avoid being a primarily melee class. I'm not opposed to getting my hands dirty now and then, but I prefer standing in the back and doing large amounts of damage generally. I don't mind a supportive roll, but I do enjoy being optimized and causing lots of death and destruction.

Now here is somewhat of a hitch- I want to play one of the newer classes that wouldn't have been common in 3.5. Eg. Oracle which is what I've been looking at primarily.

Oracles look cool, but there's a lot to them and the mystery selection is really hard for me. JuJu seems awesome, but possibly not appropiate. Wind seems flexible, but maybe not very strong?

What suggestions can you offer? I want to build something optimized so even starting at 1.. I want to plan ahead and know what I can expect at level 5-10. I'm hoping we choose the fast progression.

*Oh and I want to try and only use the resources on the Paizo site (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd)

[JHShadon]

I hear the Witch (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/witch.html) is good for battlefield control, it has a good spell selection and the Misfortune Hex and Cackle are a great combination you can get at level one by using the feat Extra Hex (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#extra-hex).

[Zonugal]

Have you looked at the Alchemist class?

[klarg1]

Alchemists are quite good for battlefield control, and can dish out a fair amount of damage. A good alchemist also means your party need never fear swarms.

Clerics were bread and butter for 3.5 (and earlier), but you can build a reasonable effective controller around negative channeling and variant channeling, which will feel very different from a 3.5 cleric. (This will limit your range to 30', but it's a big area attack.)

I haven't explored oracle mysteries deeply enough to provide much insight.

[CombatOwl]

Hello, starting a new PF game and we're likely starting at level 1 (sadface). We've all been playing 3.5e so it's a little new for us.

So far we're looking at:
A Summoner who will be as OP as he possibly can be
A Battle Cleric/Healing/Tank of some kind
A (hopefully) Cavalier

There will be several others who haven't decided. Most of them will likely focus on Melee and/or SkillMonkey. One will likely be a Caster/Blaster.

I personally want to focus on Battlefield control and avoid being a primarily melee class. I'm not opposed to getting my hands dirty now and then, but I prefer standing in the back and doing large amounts of damage generally. I don't mind a supportive roll, but I do enjoy being optimized and causing lots of death and destruction.

Now here is somewhat of a hitch- I want to play one of the newer classes that wouldn't have been common in 3.5. Eg. Oracle which is what I've been looking at primarily.

Well, by far the best battlefield control in PF is a Sorcerer with the Dazing Spell metamagic feat. You can daze groups, while selectively targeting which saves you want them to make. I guess you could do this with witch, but it would be a lot worse.

None of the "new" APG classes are particularly good for battlefield control.


Oracles look cool, but there's a lot to them and the mystery selection is really hard for me. JuJu seems awesome, but possibly not appropiate. Wind seems flexible, but maybe not very strong?

Oracle is very hit or miss. Life oracles make great healbots, but healbotting is an awful strategy. There are some necromancy-type oracle builds that work, but clerics and necromancers still do it better.


What suggestions can you offer? I want to build something optimized so even starting at 1.. I want to plan ahead and know what I can expect at level 5-10. I'm hoping we choose the fast progression.

You're pretty much SOL on battlefield control in APG classes, other than summoner. If you already hae a summoner, take that off the list of things to consider, because the DM will just go crazy with that many summons on the field.


Alchemists are quite good for battlefield control, and can dish out a fair amount of damage. A good alchemist also means your party need never fear swarms.

They're kind of meh at battlefield control. The clouds don't have high enough DCs to be a problem, their poisons are in the same boat. Tanglefoot bombs are okay, but they don't have a wide enough AOE to really be suitable for a dedicated battlefield controller.

Alchemists are really only suited for two roles; melee smash characters (via mutagens and feral discoveries), and blasty bombers (two-weapon fighting chain and fast bombs). They can dish out more damage per round than any other class in the game, assuming non-mythic (mythic vital strike renders the alchemist mass bombings obsolete damage-wise).

[Karoht]

The problem I have with Summoner as a BFC (BattleField Control) platform is that almost all of their control relies on the targets being ground based. That is, not having access to flight. Can the target fly? Then it's going to ignore the Summoner's spells, making them quite a waste. If it doesn't fly? Create Pit and Tar Pool are AWESOME.

Oracle gets some excellent control spells. Winter Oracle I would highly recommend, you get Sleetstorm and you can get Snow Sight which allows you to see through it. Like Mists/Fogs? Get a Goz Mask, now you can see through them just fine. Take the feat Divine Intervention to force enemies to reroll something once per round.
@Healboting
The reason why Oracle healbot is good is because often, you can do things without impacting your standard action. Channel can be done as a move, Energy Body doesn't cost you an action to use, just to initiate, and it provides you some immunities as well.
If you can obtain any form of Fast Healing (IE-Celestial Blessed Template, only 1CR adjustment) Life Link becomes an AMAZING tool, which also does not cost you an action.
Oracle + Paladin (2 level dip at most) is an amazingly flexible healer, and because you can usually avoid using your Standard action to heal, it means you can still be a battlefield control or even do cool things like Spiritual Weapon/Ally + Toppling Spell, which is not only contributing damage but also acts as a Single Target Control spell.

I would totally agree with the recommendation of Witch. You'll always have something you can be doing, Winter Witch Archetype into the Winter Witch Prestige Class (which, to be even more confusing, stacks with Winter Witch, so you can Winter Witch while you Winter Witch, no seriously for reals, check it out) which gets some excellent single target control in addition to the BFC. And you have your regular hexes to back you up as well.

Cavalier with Trample/Overrun? Works great until you hit flying enemies. Size category differences are also kind of a pain. Also difficult to bring a mount into a dungeon some times. Most times really. YMMV.

[andreww]

Be a Heavens Oracle and colour spray everything you meet into oblivious. Grab Magical Lineage (Colour Spray) for the metamagic reduction and Widen Spell to hit a huge area. Make sure to invest in Persistent Spell to make saves unlikely and possibly Spontaneous Metafocus if you want your move action. Be a Human or a Half Elf for the extra spells Favoured Class Bonus. If you want real cheese then grab Paragon Surge for spontaneous access to your entire list. If wanting to break the game in half pick up Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) for spontaneous access to the Wizard list as well. Do make sure to grab some other useful spells in case you come up against something which is immune.

This was my last Oracle:

Female Human (Varisian) Oracle 10
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +16

--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 11, flat-footed 22 (+8 armor, +3 shield, +1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 83 (10d8+30)
Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +9
Weakness oracle's curses (blackened)

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +0/-5 (1d4+1/×2) and
+1 shortspear +5/+0 (1d6+2/×2)

Oracle Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +17):
5th (4/day)—mass cure light wounds, overland flight, plane shift (DC 22)
4th (6/day)—blessing of fervor (DC 21), cure critical wounds, rainbow pattern (DC 23), freedom of movement, summon monster iv
3rd (8/day)—cure serious wounds, invisibility purge, dispel magic, wall of fire, bestow curse (DC 20), blindness/deafness (DC 20), daylight, communal resist energy
2nd (8/day)—lesser restoration, remove paralysis, calm emotions (DC 19), hypnotic pattern (DC 21), cure moderate wounds, sound burst (DC 19), flaming sphere (DC 19), scorching ray, communal protection from evil, grace
1st (8/day)—liberating command, color spray (DC 20), remove fear, shield of faith, cure light wounds, burning hands (DC 18), sanctuary (DC 18), comprehend languages, obscuring mist, remove sickness (DC 18)
0 (at will)—guidance, stabilize, purify food and drink (DC 17), detect magic, mending, create water, detect poison, light, read magic

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 25
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 19

Feats Dazing Spell, Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Spell Focus (illusion), Widen Spell

Traits magical lineage (colour spray), reactionary

Skills Bluff +20, Diplomacy +23, Disguise +10, Fly +8, Heal +2, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (planes) +9, Knowledge (religion) +9, Perception +16, Spellcraft +5, Survival +6 (+8 to navigate in the wilderness, +8 to avoid becoming lost when using this)
Languages Common, Thassilonian, Varisian

SQ mysteries (heavens), revelations (awesome display -7, guiding star +7 [1/day], moonlight bridge [100'] [7/day] [dc 22])

Combat Gear Potion of cure light wounds (2), Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Mithral Agile breastplate, +1 Mithral Heavy steel shield, +1 Shortspear, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of mighty constitution +2, Circlet of persuasion, Cloak of resistance +4, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (11 @ 64.84 lbs), Headband of alluring charisma +4, Astrolabe, Compass, Crowbar, Everburning torch, Harrow deck, Ink, black, Inkpen, Journal, Oracle's kit, Silk rope, Spell component pouch (2), Star charts, Teapot, 859 GP, 8 SP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Awesome Display -7 (Su) Your Illusion (pattern) spells treat observers as 7 HD lower than their actual HD.

[CombatOwl]

The problem I have with Summoner as a BFC (BattleField Control) platform is that almost all of their control relies on the targets being ground based. That is, not having access to flight. Can the target fly? Then it's going to ignore the Summoner's spells, making them quite a waste. If it doesn't fly? Create Pit and Tar Pool are AWESOME.

Master Summoner, end of story. If you can lay down that many summons, you control the battlefield.


Oracle gets some excellent control spells. Winter Oracle I would highly recommend, you get Sleetstorm and you can get Snow Sight which allows you to see through it. Like Mists/Fogs? Get a Goz Mask, now you can see through them just fine. Take the feat Divine Intervention to force enemies to reroll something once per round.

That is firmly in the "kind of vaguely acceptable for the role" category spellcasting not, "a good choice for the role" spellcasting. Summoners are a vastly superior choice for this because of the array of wall spells if nothing else.


@Healboting
The reason why Oracle healbot is good is because often, you can do things without impacting your standard action. Channel can be done as a move, Energy Body doesn't cost you an action to use, just to initiate, and it provides you some immunities as well.
If you can obtain any form of Fast Healing (IE-Celestial Blessed Template, only 1CR adjustment) Life Link becomes an AMAZING tool, which also does not cost you an action.
Oracle + Paladin (2 level dip at most) is an amazingly flexible healer, and because you can usually avoid using your Standard action to heal, it means you can still be a battlefield control or even do cool things like Spiritual Weapon/Ally + Toppling Spell, which is not only contributing damage but also acts as a Single Target Control spell.

If you're healing damage, you're wasting actions, even if they're move actions. Even if it's just one standard action to start the effect. The best healer is the one that kills the enemy before they can deal damage.


I would totally agree with the recommendation of Witch. You'll always have something you can be doing, Winter Witch Archetype into the Winter Witch Prestige Class (which, to be even more confusing, stacks with Winter Witch, so you can Winter Witch while you Winter Witch, no seriously for reals, check it out) which gets some excellent single target control in addition to the BFC. And you have your regular hexes to back you up as well.

It's really the only APG class with good BFC mechanics... other than master summoners cranking out summons.


Cavalier with Trample/Overrun? Works great until you hit flying enemies. Size category differences are also kind of a pain. Also difficult to bring a mount into a dungeon some times. Most times really. YMMV.

Just play a small cavalier. This also opens up vital strike/spirited charge cheese. After all, mounted charges are the only kind of charge that you can vital strike during. Use a large mount with an easily removed item that does continuous reduce animal. This gets even more ridiculous with continuous lead blades.

[Karoht]

Master Summoner, end of story. If you can lay down that many summons, you control the battlefield.Query-What SLA's from Summoning would you recommend then?
Summons cost action economy to set them up in the first place. Is it worth waiting a round or possibly several rounds for? Is it worth having a gimped Eidolon?


That is firmly in the "kind of vaguely acceptable for the role" category spellcasting not, "a good choice for the role" spellcasting. Summoners are a vastly superior choice for this because of the array of wall spells if nothing else.Cleric/Oracle Spell List includes the following Wall Spells, spoilered for length. This is before factoring in Domains/Mysteries.

Wind Wall
Fickle Winds-Makes several walls, and mobile.
Holy/Unholy Ice-Functions as Wall of Ice but with other combat options
Wall of Stone-Quintessential wall spell.
Blade Barrier-Murders things and provides cover. Brutal Spell when used right. Summoners do NOT get it. Spell Resistance to ignore it yes, but Force Damage so it affects pretty much everything.
Symbol of Sealing-Triggered Wall of Force, clever usage makes this go quite far.


Summoners get...

Wind Wall-Same as Cleric/Oracle
Wall of Fire-Spell Resistance to completely ignore it, mid range damage, fire resist also bipasses it.
Wall of Ice-Often underrated.
Wall of Stone-Same as Cleric/Oracle
Wall of Iron-What does this do that Wall of Stone already doesn't? Fall on people?

So if you've got a major thing for the wall spells, Oracle/Cleric is looking pretty good. In addition to all of the other Cleric/Oracle BFC options. Though I will grant you, Summoner does get Aqueous Orb, which is a hilarious spell. Play Katamari Damaci with your enemies. Roll them into hazaards such as your pit spells or off of cliffs. Fun times.
(Cleric/Oracle can get that too, with the right Domain/Mystery)


If you're healing damage, you're wasting actions, even if they're move actions. Even if it's just one standard action to start the effect. The best healer is the one that kills the enemy before they can deal damage.I've never played in one of these magical parties where no one ever takes damage, or gets KO'd from a stray crit, or gets locked down by a paralysis effect. Or heaven forbid gets spammed with Fear. You're right though, it's totally better to ignore the rest of my party, let them get debuffed or killed, but take the killing blow against something. Yeup, good call.
Keeping other people alive is not a waste of actions if it keeps them able to fight and therefore preventing them from wasting their actions. By being unconscious/debuffed/dead.
And the point is, I can only cast spells during standard actions, so using my move/swift for something else isn't the end of the world. There is no real downside to healing AND casting a spell, unless you want to argue the lack of Quicken Spell as an option in that mix.
Finally, if you are doing it right, you won't need to use a move/swift all the time. In fact, if you're doing your job and using BFC correctly, healing probably won't come up. But when it does, oh look, you don't even need your standard to do it. Bravo.


It's really the only APG class with good BFC mechanics... other than master summoners cranking out summons.Here we agree, somewhat. Maybe I'm missing some critical SLA's or other abilities of some Summons, but I don't see any options that a normal summoner couldn't already have.


Just play a small cavalier. This also opens up vital strike/spirited charge cheese. After all, mounted charges are the only kind of charge that you can vital strike during. Use a large mount with an easily removed item that does continuous reduce animal. This gets even more ridiculous with continuous lead blades.One trick pony riding a pony. There are so many ways for a DM to prevent a charge. Most of them involve the BFC we've been discussing all thread, others include terrain. Bunch of archers hiding in trees or even some light bush? Good luck charging that.

[M@XIM]

Gah, now I want to be a Summoner haha. I don't think our DM could handle two Summoners. I looked at Witch and though I don't like the flavor (I'm not much of a cackler) , but it's worth looking at. Alchemist was surprisingly better than I expected, but not exactly my cup of tea. The bombs seem like an Alchemist's primary approach and they seem kind of boring when you're accustomed to doing a lot of damage. (Druid and DFA have ruined me)

As I said, I do like Oracles, but I'm somewhat indecisive and there are several different flavors of Oracles. On the Oracle side of things:
Anything that can deal surprising amounts of damage?
I don't mind healing and buffing, but I kind of don't expect that to be my primarily role/agenda so I need something that isn't all about heal/buff.

Summoners: Could there be two Summoners that focus on different things? Would it be too much for the average DM or reasonable? I don't want to be one of two people who both just spam/do the same thing no matter how effective it might be.

I've noticed a lot of optimized builds centered around Archers.. they're usually multi classing which isn't out of the question (if effective). Any promise here?

Thanks for everyone's help thusfar.

[Karoht]

As I said, I do like Oracles, but I'm somewhat indecisive and there are several different flavors of Oracles. On the Oracle side of things:
Anything that can deal surprising amounts of damage?
I don't mind healing and buffing, but I kind of don't expect that to be my primarily role/agenda so I need something that isn't all about heal/buff.
Spiritual Weapon + Toppling Spell. Watch as a weapon of force bludgeons something to death until you tell it to stop. Every time it hits it triggers a free trip attempt. When you get your BAB higher than 6, thats two attacks and two trip attempts every round.
You can summon multiple weapons and direct them around the battlefield as you see fit.

If you want more damage?
Take the feat Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline), and pick either a bonded weapon or a familiar. Your choice.
Be a half elf and take the spell Paragon Surge. It gives you 1 feat you qualify for, selected when you cast the spell.
If you want a Cleric spell that isn't on your list, select Extended Arcana, and pick any Cleric spell you want. Pretty cool right?
Past level 9, you use Paragon Surge to get the feat Improve Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline) which at that level will allow you to pick up to two spells from the Wizard/Sorc list and add them to your spells known, much in the same way Extended Arcana does.
Spell combo away! All kinds of damage options open up. Happy hunting!

[M@XIM]

Spiritual Weapon + Toppling Spell. Watch as a weapon of force bludgeons something to death until you tell it to stop. Every time it hits it triggers a free trip attempt. When you get your BAB higher than 6, thats two attacks and two trip attempts every round.
You can summon multiple weapons and direct them around the battlefield as you see fit.

If you want more damage?
Take the feat Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline), and pick either a bonded weapon or a familiar. Your choice.
Be a half elf and take the spell Paragon Surge. It gives you 1 feat you qualify for, selected when you cast the spell.
If you want a Cleric spell that isn't on your list, select Extended Arcana, and pick any Cleric spell you want. Pretty cool right?
Past level 9, you use Paragon Surge to get the feat Improve Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline) which at that level will allow you to pick up to two spells from the Wizard/Sorc list and add them to your spells known, much in the same way Extended Arcana does.
Spell combo away! All kinds of damage options open up. Happy hunting!

Sounds kind of fun, are you aware of any existing build/guides for this to use as reference?

[Spore]

Gah, now I want to be a Summoner haha. I don't think our DM could handle two Summoners. I looked at Witch and though I don't like the flavor (I'm not much of a cackler) , but it's worth looking at. Alchemist was surprisingly better than I expected, but not exactly my cup of tea. The bombs seem like an Alchemist's primary approach and they seem kind of boring when you're accustomed to doing a lot of damage. (Druid and DFA have ruined me)

As I said, I do like Oracles, but I'm somewhat indecisive and there are several different flavors of Oracles. On the Oracle side of things:
Anything that can deal surprising amounts of damage?
I don't mind healing and buffing, but I kind of don't expect that to be my primarily role/agenda so I need something that isn't all about heal/buff.

Summoners: Could there be two Summoners that focus on different things? Would it be too much for the average DM or reasonable? I don't want to be one of two people who both just spam/do the same thing no matter how effective it might be.

I've noticed a lot of optimized builds centered around Archers.. they're usually multi classing which isn't out of the question (if effective). Any promise here?

Thanks for everyone's help thusfar.

1) Oracles are a great way to control the battlefield but they don't actually deal that awesome amount of damage. You could go Elven Lorekeeper and cherrypick you favorite wizard spells. A Lore Oracle with that Archetype would make sense in your group since you probably lack EVERY knowledge skill besides Religion and Planes.

2) For on different things how? You both have Eidolons and a very limited amount of spells/day. If you play Master Summoner while he is an Synthesist you would lob creatures onto the field while he is fusing with his Eidolon into an ungodly war machine. Yeah, but the standard Summoner is best played with a few spells to hasten the party and up the AC of the Eidolon to then go to down with him.

3) Ranged characters do insane damage....but do not exert ANY control onto the battlefield. But honestly? Your group seems more than capable of controlling the environment. And what playing a Cavalier for half a year has to me then there is one thing that we suck at the most: Attacking flying creatures (my mount isn't trained for Airwalk, which uses up another trick slot and takes several days without 'expert trainer'). You're PERFECT for that!

I would suggest an Ancient Lorekeeper Lore Oracle or a bow based Inquisitor (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/inquisitor.html), perhaps Infiltrator (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcastingClassOptions/inquisitor.html#_infiltrator-%28archetype%29) Archetype (you could use a scout).



Past level 9, you use Paragon Surge to get the feat Improve Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline) which at that level will allow you to pick up to two spells from the Wizard/Sorc list and add them to your spells known, much in the same way Extended Arcana does.

Yeah you'd qualify for the Ancient Lorekeeper as Half-Elf as well but you need to be 11 to pick from either the 3rd or 9th level bloodline power.

I highly suggest picking Half-Elf Ancient Lorekeeper Lore Oracle (Haunted Curse gives Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Levitate, Minor Image, Telekinesis and Reverse Gravity). I think a spell list with all cure spells, make picked Arcane ones, then choosing the best divine ones while spending Skill Focus Knowledge Nature to get an Familiar (Eldritch Heritage Arcane) and Improved Familiar (UMD to cast spells for you) PLUS an Animal Companion on ECL -1 (Eldritch Heritage Sylvan + Boon Companion).

[Manly Man]

If you can use psionics, being a Psion (Nomad) is, as far as I can tell, great for battlefield control. Thrallherds are excellent too (flood battlefield with devoted minions), except that there's a huge amount of bookkeeping, since it's pretty much "Leadership: The Class", and based on that alone I doubt you'd be allowed to have it, even if psionics were permitted.

[CombatOwl]

Gah, now I want to be a Summoner haha. I don't think our DM could handle two Summoners.

Personally, I've never found a DM that even allows master summoner. It's just too much bookkeeping. Basically just army vs. army where the DM controls the battlefield.


I looked at Witch and though I don't like the flavor (I'm not much of a cackler) , but it's worth looking at. Alchemist was surprisingly better than I expected, but not exactly my cup of tea. The bombs seem like an Alchemist's primary approach and they seem kind of boring when you're accustomed to doing a lot of damage. (Druid and DFA have ruined me)

Alchemists optimized for bombing can outdamage most stuff in the game, and get to throw out useful effects as a part of that. There are a few narrow builds that can do better (mounted charging+power attack+vital strike+spirited charge with either paladin smite or cavalier challenge... preferably with a bard as a cohort giving morale bonuses to damage), but alchemists can reliably drop atomic weapons with very normal feat choices.

They can certainly beat PF-only druids in terms of damage.


As I said, I do like Oracles, but I'm somewhat indecisive and there are several different flavors of Oracles. On the Oracle side of things:
Anything that can deal surprising amounts of damage?

Oracle is a bad choice for damage. You really have to pick one thing and specialize as an oracle.


I don't mind healing and buffing, but I kind of don't expect that to be my primarily role/agenda so I need something that isn't all about heal/buff.

AFAIK, there is nothing in the APG that's really good at BFC while also being good at some form of direct combat. There's a lot of stuff that's great at combat (magus, cavalier, alchemist, etc) but very little that's good at BFC (witch, summoner). Neither of the good BFC choices are good combat choices, other than, again, master summoner. Which is hell on both you and the DM.


Summoners: Could there be two Summoners that focus on different things?

Yes. Synthesists are basically the direct opposite of a master summoner. They play entirely differently.


Would it be too much for the average DM or reasonable?

Eidolon-focused summoners aren't really a huge deal--no more than druids with animal companions. It's master summoners that become the headache.


I don't want to be one of two people who both just spam/do the same thing no matter how effective it might be.

There is a pretty wide variety of eidolon-based strategies. But none of them are great for BFC.


I've noticed a lot of optimized builds centered around Archers.. they're usually multi classing which isn't out of the question (if effective). Any promise here?

Extreme promise. But not for BFC. Archers can pump out a lot of damage. You get weak maneuver-based disabling with the Archer archetype for Fighter, but that's single target tripping and requires CMB checks against trip CMDs (which tend to be high for monsters).

Zen Archer with monk is also very good at archery, but you have to get a big pile of ki.

[Captain Morgan]

It may not be optimized enough for you, but the Dark Tapestry mystery has some fun ways to control the battle field for Oracles, and has a pretty kick ass flavor too. Black Tentacles rocks my socks.