Better Reflex Saves?

[1pwny]

I've always wondered about reflex saves. I feel like they aren't used correctly. How it should work is something similar to this:

1. Sword coming at you? Reflex check. If you succeed and notice the sword, you dodge it.
2. Caster casting at you? Reflex check. If you succeed, then you get a free move action in a given direction to try to avoid the spell.
3. Ghost Touch'ed Blade coming at you from the Etheral Plane? Reflex Check.

I'm not sure how much of this already exists for reflex saves. I haven't really looked into it. But in real life, highly trained martial artists can instantly react to a change in shoulder position, focus of the eye, or tensing of the muscle.

So why aren't reflexes as useful in D&D/Pathfinder?

[lorddrake]

Not reflex per se, but you add dex to AC, which means the agility in avoiding attacks and dodging.

That's why in some cases you lose dex to AC, for example...

[AstralFire]

FWIW, Star Wars Saga noted this and makes no distinction between Reflex Defense and Armor Class (although what we think of as AC now also has benefits to Fortitude Defense.)

[Slipperychicken]

You could use the rolled AC variant rule, where you subtract 10 from Armor Class, and add a d20 roll. When you roll for defense, you feel more like the guy's dodging.


Not reflex per se, but you add dex to AC, which means the agility in avoiding attacks and dodging.

That's why in some cases you lose dex to AC, for example...

Dex to AC absolutely is reflexes. It represents a character's ability to parry and dodge incoming attacks.

[TuggyNE]

So why aren't reflexes as useful in D&D/Pathfinder?

Because it would be super-annoying to have to roll twice for every attack: once to see if they dodged, and once to see if you got past their armor or whatever. It gets worse if you can parry, of course.

[HylianKnight]

My favorite example is the Rogue walking around in street clothes. He turns the corner where *bam* a Wizard and Archer have the jump on him. The Wizard fires a bolt of lightning, thus literally traveling at the speed of light. Rogue completely dodges it no problem in the blink of an eye. The archer then fires an arrow flying at a fraction of the speed..."sh*t" :)

[Greenish]

My favorite example is the Rogue walking around in street clothes. He turns the corner where *bam* a Wizard and Archer have the jump on him. The Wizard fires a bolt of lightning, thus literally traveling at the speed of light. Rogue completely dodges it no problem in the blink of an eye. The archer then fires an arrow flying at a fraction of the speed..."sh*t" :)Rogues do get Uncanny Dodge, though.

[Edit]:
a bolt of lightning, thus literally traveling at the speed of light.I'm pretty sure bolts of lightning don't travel literally at the speed of light. Light is pretty fast, after all.

[OldTrees1]

My favorite example is the Rogue walking around in street clothes. He turns the corner where *bam* a Wizard and Archer have the jump on him. The Wizard fires a bolt of lightning, thus literally traveling at the speed of light. Rogue completely dodges it no problem in the blink of an eye. The archer then fires an arrow flying at a fraction of the speed..."sh*t" :)

Archers can aim at a bullseye.
Evokers can barely hit the broad side of a barn.

Hence the reason the unaimed laser was easier to dodge than the aimed arrow.

[Spore]

I'm pretty sure bolts of lightning don't travel literally at the speed of light. Light is pretty fast, after all.

[Scrubbed due to sillyness, light isn't lightning bolt. I am a dolt]

[Bavarian itP]

They travel a little slower: 99,97% of light speed in vacuum because air. Still pretty much light speed. (If we go for game physics, the speed is infinite because there is no TIME between casting, firing and impact).

299,703.146 m/s (air) / 299,792.458 m/s (vacuum) = 99.97%

University of Illinois (http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=533) disagrees.

[HylianKnight]

Archers can aim at a bullseye.
Evokers can barely hit the broad side of a barn.

Hence the reason the unaimed laser was easier to dodge than the aimed arrow.

Except Lightning Bolt isn't a ray - it's not a ranged touch attack. It's reflex for half which means that in game mechanic terms it's going to hit you, all that is determined is how squarely you get hit.

Except that 2nd level Rogue is so well trained and skilled that he can even avoid the guaranteed-to-hit bolt of lightning. Yet none of this applies to a stick with a pointy end flying at him.

[OldTrees1]

Except Lightning Bolt isn't a ray - it's not a ranged touch attack. It's reflex for half which means that in game mechanic terms it's going to hit you, all that is determined is how squarely you get hit.

Except that 2nd level Rogue is so well trained and skilled that he can even avoid the guaranteed-to-hit bolt of lightning. Yet none of this applies to a stick with a pointy end flying at him.

I never said it was a ray. I said it was a poorly aimed diffused laser.

[ericgrau]

Not reflex per se, but you add dex to AC, which means the agility in avoiding attacks and dodging.

That's why in some cases you lose dex to AC, for example...
Pretty much this. Dodging is your touch AC, which also adds to your regular AC.

It is odd that touch AC scales more by items than by level, while saves scale more by level than by gear. I never liked that.

The difference between a reflex save and touch AC is mainly an area vs. a single target. The "instant" spells aren't truly 0.00 seconds instant nor are they truly instant after a delay. Pieces of the spell are appearing bit by bit until they cover the area. Most folk are going to get hit no matter what because the effect covers the whole area and it's only a matter of averting most of the damage. I imagine evasion as being so nutso that as you're avoiding the later parts of the spell you can split-second move into where the early parts of the spell are fading or where the effect is moving away from. A little like matrix moves against a hail of pieces of an attack.

[molten_dragon]

The Wizard fires a bolt of lightning, thus literally traveling at the speed of light.

Lightning doesn't travel at the speed of light. It travels very fast (something like 3700 miles per second), but still a lot slower than the speed of light.

[Spore]

University of Illinois (http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=533) disagrees.

This MAY be because I accidentally substituted lightning bolt with light. The answer is simplified however. Some parts are quite slow (the building charge) while some come closer to light speed. It all depends on electric charge, current and potential.

Electrons have mass and thus cannot be accelerated to lightspeed. Photons are mass less and thus can.