Reach weapons, why even bother?

[Kaeso]

Some experience with reach weapons has made me doubt their usefulness. Let me explain by giving an example. In one campaign, I played a cleric with a longspear, and decided to use it against a bandit. I expected combat to go something like this.

1. Bandit moves in to engage
2. I hit him with my reach weapon as he moves in
3. If I hit him with my AoO, I hit him again with my attack. If I miss, I take a 5 ft. step back, then attack him.
4. The bandit closes in once more, giving me another AoO.

But in actuality, combat went something like this.

1. Bandit moves in to engage
2. I hit him with my reach weapon as he moves in.
3. I hit him with my AoO, so I hit him again on my turn.
4. The bandit uses a 5 ft. step to close the distance, making my longspear useless and forcing me to fight with my gauntlets.

This raises the question why any melee character would even bother with a reach weapon. Is that one Attack of Opportunity you get against an opponent really worth it? Wouldn't you be better off with the large selection of non-reach weapons that have better damage?

[Stux]

Don't forget you can 5-foot step too. On your turn you take a 5-foot step away from your target, which doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, and then attack with the spear.

[Kaeso]

Don't forget you can 5-foot step too. On your turn you take a 5-foot step away from your target, which doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, and then attack with the spear.

But then my opponent can 5 ft. step back into range and attack. It's just like a normal melee fight, except with a 5 ft. tango thrown in.

[Stux]

You are controlling the 'tango' though. Either he is withdrawing, or he is moving the direction you want him to move in.

[avr]

You got one free attack at the start of the combat, then each combatant gets their usual attacks until the end of the combat, barring other factors. Did you expect more?

[Pex]

The idea with reach weapons is to force enemies to provoke as many attack of opportunities as possible so you get many attacks at your highest BAB. In addition, you would want to trip your opponents or otherwise prevent them from attacking you, but you can still attack them at an advantage. If you don't build your character around the tactic, not necessarily the only thing you do, then just having a reach weapon doesn't really mean anything. At best it allows you to attack creatures with 10 ft reach of their own without you provoking an AoO to move within 5 ft attacking with a normal weapon and to attack from the second flank against the enemy in a choke-hold environment with your party member in front of you attacking as well.

[herrhauptmann]

Some experience with reach weapons has made me doubt their usefulness. Let me explain by giving an example. In one campaign, I played a cleric with a longspear, and decided to use it against a bandit. I expected combat to go something like this.

1. Bandit moves in to engage
2. I hit him with my reach weapon as he moves in
3. If I hit him with my AoO, I hit him again with my attack. If I miss, I take a 5 ft. step back, then attack him.
4. The bandit closes in once more, giving me another AoO.

If you've got the room for the feats, get Knockdown. It's in the deity section of the SRD, but it doesn't require Divine Rank (god-hood) to take it. When you hit someone for 10 points of damage, you have a chance of tripping them.

Now, buy some steadfast boots in MiC. When you've got a 2hander, and someone charges you, you get to hit them as soon as they come into range, at double damage. This does not eat an AOO, and is separate from an AOO, so it works even if their reach is equal to yours.
If your reach is superior, you also get the movement AOO.

A small investment, but 2 attacks that have the potential of doing triple the damage your character is already doing.

Get weapon enhancements taht do more than just damage, activating per hit. Perhaps the souldrinker in the DMG (38k, normally on a +1 axe). Check my sig for "Weapon Effects."

[Greenish]

You can also do stuff like disarm. If the enemy is using a one-handed weapon, you've got +4 advantage, +8 if he's wielding a light weapon. You can also disarm stuff other than weapons, if there's an obvious potion hanging from his belt, for example.

You won't provoke, since he's not threatening you. Whether he can attempt to disarm you back if you fail is debatable (he can't reach you), but, well, locked gauntlet.

[Stux]

If you really want to own the battlefield within your reach, take Martial Study for any Devoted Spirit maneuver then Martial Stance for Thicket of Blades. This means enemy 5-foot steps provoke attacks of opportunity from you, so if the enemy keeps moving up to attack you then you are getting an extra attack each time. It takes 2 feats, but the Devoted Spirit maneuver you pick up as the prerequisite may end up being very useful to you in its own right!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Extra attacks are good. And you can optimize it with knock down, stand still, et cetera.

But just consider a high dex/high str low level meleer with a reach weapon versus a bunch of kobolds. Each free attack he gets is basically another kill, and he could get quite a few.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I am not versed in 3rd Edition but couldn't you buy poisons to apply to your weapon and cause that AoO to possibly really screw up the turn of the person that comes into your range?

[lsfreak]

Wouldn't you be better off with the large selection of non-reach weapons that have better damage?

You're talking about a damage difference of 1-2 points. That's completely insignificant compared to the damage of a second attack.

The other big thing is that you're generally tripping with your AoO, not making an attack. That's followed up by an attack triggered by Improved Trip, at an effective +4 bonus (because they're prone). If they stand up, they trigger another AoO, and if they don't, they can't attack you because you're out of reach.

Even if you're not tripping, a lot of encounters have multiple smaller enemies rather than a single large one. Getting reach (especially once you go beyond just reach weapons, such as Deformity (Tall) + Enlarge Person on top of a reach weapon) means you're making attacks against multiple enemies every turn just for their movement because you can cover a large portion of the battlefield. And in addition it lets you overcome melee's inherent weakness of not being able to switch targets after one dies with any sort of ease; normally, if you drop a target on your first attack, the rest of your turn is wasted unless something else happens to be 5 feet away from you.

Plus, reach + tripping is about the only effective way to "tank" in 3.5. There's simply no effective way for a martial character to keep enemies away from your allies except to lock them down with reach and tripping.

[herrhauptmann]

I am not versed in 3rd Edition but couldn't you buy poisons to apply to your weapon and cause that AoO to possibly really screw up the turn of the person that comes into your range?

Poisons are generally 1 time use.
They're expensive.
Risk of poisoning self.
Super "Evil."
A lot of creatures are immune, unless you get ravages (or afflictions, I forget), which aren't poisons. But work just like them.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Poisons are generally 1 time use.
They're expensive.
Risk of poisoning self.
Super "Evil."
A lot of creatures are immune, unless you get ravages (or afflictions, I forget), which aren't poisons. But work just like them.


Oh well nevermind then, if something is too expensive...

[herrhauptmann]

Oh well nevermind then, if something is too expensive...

There's ways around it, which is generally Minor Creation for certain poisons. There's also the fact that the DCs are pretty low

[Slipperychicken]

This raises the question why any melee character would even bother with a reach weapon. Is that one Attack of Opportunity you get against an opponent really worth it? Wouldn't you be better off with the large selection of non-reach weapons that have better damage?

It's "only" one extra attack if you didn't make any investment whatsoever. Even without investing in the fighting style, that extra attack can mean the difference between victory and defeat.

A reach weapon's damage is about the same, maybe 2 fewer points on average than a Greatsword, but that's ultimately a worthwhile tradeoff once you have a good damage bonus (like from twohanding and power attack).

If you put some feats into it, such as Knockback, Knock-Down, and Stand Still, and try to apply status effects like tripping, then that AoO gets better since it means action denial. If you get the guy prone, then you can score another AoO while he's trying to stand up.

If you ready an action against a charge, then you deal double damage against the guy, and still get your AoO in on top of that. That's huge damage.

If you ride a mount, use a lance (which is a reach weapon), and charge, then you deal double damage. This doesn't require any feats -just a lance, some skill-points in Ride, and a mount.


So yeah, I'd say reach weapons are worth it.

[Scow2]

If you're Large, they can't 5' step to get into melee range unless they have a reach weapon - they have to move at least 15' (... then again, you can't 5' step back if they get within 5' of you to attack).

[EugeneVoid]

http://i.imgur.com/YYJ2P1x.jpg

Bigger is Better.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At level 1, a decent reach weapon plus a decent Str score plus Combat Reflexes will outright win plenty of fights to make it worthwhile. A Glaive with Str 14 deals 1d10+3, average 8.5, versus most opponents' <6 hp. In this case you kill an opponent before they even get close enough to hit you, multiple times per round.

Later on you should use clever positioning, plus the reach weapon gives you a free attack on an opponent the first time they move up to you. If everyone is only making one attack each round anyway, it basically gives you a free turn's worth of hits on each opponent. You can use the 5-ft. step trick to lure him into a position where your allies can flank him, or he can stop pursuing you. D&D is a tactical game, and having a reach weapon just gives you more options.

Just face an opponent who has a natural 10 ft. reach, such as an Ogre or a Troll or a Hydra, and you'll be glad you brought a reach weapon. Giving one of those opponents a free hit (or a free full attack for a Hydra) is not something you want to be doing. Having a longer reach is an advantage, facing an opponent who has a longer reach is a disadvantage. Just play smart and use the tools your character has, and remember that this is a tactical game.

[EugeneVoid]

Have the man with the funny hat to make you bigger.

[MirddinEmris]

There is also the fact that thre are plenty of monsters with big natural reach and ifyou are not using reach weapon, you'll provoke an AoO from them every time you try to close up.

[gorfnab]

The other thing to consider when using a reach weapon is to have something like Improved Unarmed Strike, Spiked Gauntlets, or Armor Spikes so that you can threaten at 5ft and 10ft and not have to worry too much when the opponent takes a 5ft step to be in an adjacent square.

[Gwendol]

Or use a spiked chain. Reach and AoO's are among the most powerful options for martial characters to develop since it allows attacking out of turn, and thus directly influence enemy actions. Combat reflexes is one of the best (martial) feats in the game.

[ericgrau]

It is in fact only good for one extra attack. And if you go first sometimes not any attacks. Or if you went second you're flat-footed and can't make attacks of opportunity anyway so still not any attacks. You can hold position and go after a foe comes to you, but he's more likely to go towards someone less armored. So you don't even get an extra attack against the first foe. Sometimes you might get one against a second foe, but he'll probably go after someone else too. More realistically a reach weapon protects an area from foes going through it.

So it's not as good as it's hyped up to be because foes don't walk into the scenario that everyone touting reach weapons hopes they will. But you can work to exploit reach and intentionally block a large area to protect allies, use trip or stand still to lock that area down even better, increase the size of that area with more reach, spring attack, use it to protect yourself when in fact you want to stay out of melee and do something one-handed at range, etc.

It takes some work but like anything you can exploit it and do something with it. The one thing you can't do with it is get tons of free attacks, because enemies aren't stupid. But you can take advantage of the fact that they're moving to avoid giving you free attacks, or make the alternative to free attacks even worse. For monsters it is in fact free attacks because everyone in a group tends to have reach, but not for PCs. Well, even then PCs have 50 ways around the AoO, but it's slightly more likely to work.

[nedz]

In a one on one fight it hardly matters, but in a fight against multiple opponents it can allow you get multiple extra attacks especially with Combat Reflexes. It is also good for setting up flanks, fighting from the second rank and, as other have said, works really well with Trip attacks. There are a number of lockdown builds which allow you to control an area of the battlefield though you really want 15' reach for this.

The tactical options are quite varied, but if you don't exploit your opportunities then you will gain no benefit.

[Greenish]

There are a number of lockdown builds which allow you to control an area of the battlefield though you really want 15' reach for this.20' reach is usually easier to get, with just Large size and reach weapon. 15' reach would require stuff like Willing Deformity which is a bit off the beaten path (well, for most games I've been in).

[Eldariel]

Basically, in order:
1) Yes, the single AoO is worth it.
2) For each additional creature, additional AoO.
3) If enemies try to disengage or go hit one of the reach fighter's allys, usually even more extra AoOs.
4) If you Tumble out or retreat you can get more AoOs if enemy wants to close in.
5) If you have ways to restrict enemy movement (Trip & al.) they might never get to hit back.
6) It's a move action to draw another weapon, doesn't provoke AoO. Switch to your short range melee weapons if you don't want to 5' step backwards.
7) If you get even bigger, yeah, it gets better.


But to answer your question, yes, the one extra attack is easily worth it. On low levels it can be lethal and even higher up, a single attack hurts like hell.


20' reach is usually easier to get, with just Large size and reach weapon. 15' reach would require stuff like Willing Deformity which is a bit off the beaten path (well, for most games I've been in).

Well, there's always Huge Bipedal with non-reach weapon or a Gargantuan Quadroped.

[Sam K]

In one campaign, I played a cleric with a longspear

I think I've found the problem.

If you could get a non-magical item that cost a couple of gold, that doubled the range of all your divine spells and give your touch range spell a 5 or 10 foot range, that would be pretty awesome for your cleric, right? If you could get that item on a fighter, it wouldn't do much good though. Reach weapons are a bit like that.

Reach weapons allow martial characters to apply their combat feats, like the previously mentioned (improved) trip, at twice (or more) their normal range. If you dont have such feats, the benefits are fairly minor. Still, it's not like a longspear will break your budget, right? Just use a higher damage, no range weapon when the spear isn't giving you any advantages.

[Eldariel]

Reach weapons allow martial characters to apply their combat feats, like the previously mentioned (improved) trip, at twice (or more) their normal range. If you dont have such feats, the benefits are fairly minor. Still, it's not like a longspear will break your budget, right? Just use a higher damage, no range weapon when the spear isn't giving you any advantages.

I dunno if the advantages are so minor, really. Level 1 Fighter averages 12 HP. 18 Strength Longspear hit averages 10.5 damage. Getting an extra attack that's about 50% to hit & 30% of the hits gonna one-shot one of the tougher classes (looking at +4 to hit from 18 Str 0 BAB and 15 AC from 12 Dex and Scalemail). That's a pretty good free bonus to have (let alone if the enemy doesn't have maxed HD and 14+ Con).

In general, fights on lower levels are brutal; two-three attacks can drop anyone even if the attacks aren't anything special. The one with more attacks and the first hit (both edges from a reach weapon) is god by comparison. And higher up, of course, the impact lessens since it takes a bit more work to kill someone by whacking them in the head, but it's still pretty much pure bonus (and of course, tripping doesn't require Improved Trip especially if you're doing armed trips and thus don't risk AoO so if you can get a Guisarme, go for it and use as appropriate).

[Morph Bark]

For groups of characters, use a reach weapon in combination with an ally to stand between you and your target and attack it at the same time.

Alternatively, play a character with Powerful Build or that is functionally Large and grab the Knock Back feat so that you knock attackers coming at you back. Combine it with Combat Reflexes and nobody will ever come within 5 ft of you.

[nedz]

20' reach is usually easier to get, with just Large size and reach weapon. 15' reach would require stuff like Willing Deformity which is a bit off the beaten path (well, for most games I've been in).

Hmm, maybe we've been playing this wrong then ?
In any event the greater the reach, the greater the benefit.

[ericgrau]

I am not versed in 3rd Edition but couldn't you buy poisons to apply to your weapon and cause that AoO to possibly really screw up the turn of the person that comes into your range?
Drow knockout poison could work hilariously for that and it's only 75 gp a use. It tends to be the best one in general. knocks foes unconscious on a failed save, i.e. about 25% of the time. Other poisons can work well with hit and run tactics, but good luck finding a gaming group patient enough for that.

The thing with poisons is that people vastly underestimate non-actions. Poisons are amazing. Even when the give you the weakest most unreliable effect, it's a friggin' non-action. You still deal full damage too. They are great at levels 5-10 when you can easily afford all the doses you'll ever need and yet foes aren't passing their saves on a roll of a 2 yet.

[Greenish]

Reach weapons allow martial characters to apply their combat feats, like the previously mentioned (improved) trip, at twice (or more) their normal range. If you dont have such feats, the benefits are fairly minor.Well, you can still use the combat maneuvers even without feats, since if your enemy can't reach you, he can't make the attack of opportunity. It's a bit more dicey, is all.


Hmm, maybe we've been playing this wrong then ?
In any event the greater the reach, the greater the benefit.Reach weapons double the creature's natural reach. Small and Medium creatures' reach is 5', and becomes 10'. Large (tall) creature's reach is 10', and becomes 20'.

[Angelalex242]

Nice thing about Drow Knockout Poison?

Book of Exalted Deeds specifically mentions it is non evil to use, because it does no damage.

[Evandar]

I actually quite like the crushing advantage you get at low levels with reach weapons. I've screwed around with a few armed martials arts, and more recently fencing, and weapons that provide reach were a giiiiant advantage to beginners, whereas more experienced fighters even the playing field very quickly.

That tiny bit of what I perceive as realism probably falls apart rapidly when levels advance though, but that's all right. I generally only expect to make real world comparisons between characters leveled 1-3.

The weird spiked chain builds and stuff just seem super cheesy though. I almost rolled a spiked chain tripper on my newest fighter but didn't have the Int for it.

[Dalebert]

I'm playing a 1st level witch right now and this thread just inspired me to swap out my short spear for a long spear. I was a little surprised I could use it actually. I was mildly discouraged by its weight for a bit but it's worth it (8 STR and small ratfolk). At least, it's worth it at these very low levels. That extra attack against an approaching low-level enemy might be what takes them out before they can hit me. At higher levels, I might be able to still make it worth it by enchanting it with spell storing.