Dread necromancer and Animate Dead

[Harbinger]

How come the cleric, a healer/holy warrior type class gets animate dead three levels before the class that has that spell as its bread and butter? It doesn't make much sense to me.

[Silva Stormrage]

Bad game design and the fact that arcane casters normally get it as a 4th level spell. Its easy to houserule it as a 3rd level spell though.

Also its debatable but you might be able to get it at 4th level with Advanced learning if you take it from the death master's spell list (Its a 2nd level spell there). Sure it says the spell must be on the cleric/wizard list and it IS but it just happens to be at a lower level on another list :smalltongue: Not sure if that works RAW but as a DM I would allow it just because DN's need Animate Dead earlier.

[Fates]

This has always bugged the crap out of me. In my games, I houserule it as a 2nd or 3rd level spell for them.

[JaronK]

I think the issue is that Dread Necromancers are pretty darn strong at low levels, so a low level Animate Dead was seen as a bit much. You're supposed to get your undead with Rebuke Undead until then.

With that said, it is still rather odd.

JaronK

[The Viscount]

It's possible they also didn't want to present players with the dilemma of acting at say level 6 to quickly animate minions or delaying 2 levels to make them stronger.

[OldTrees1]

Why does it matter? A Dread Necromancer wants to start animating at level 1 via Fell Animate.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How come the cleric, a healer/holy warrior type class gets animate dead three levels before the class that has that spell as its bread and butter? It doesn't make much sense to me.

Umm... that's not what a cleric is... or at least that is probably the most narrow and ideologically hidebound definition. I dare you to try and call a Cleric of Vecna that he's a healer/holy water type class and see what happens next...

Besides, with a few metamagic reduction tricks, you can have free unlimited zombies by level 4, via Fell Drain + Fell Animate on Kelgore's Grave Mist.

[Just to Browse]

People have pretty much gone over why dread necros don't get animate dead till too late. But that being said...

Never use animate dead. It's basically a hole that you just throw expensive onyx into. You take dread necro to eight levels for an uncomfortably large number of HD worth of controlled minions, and just carry around night-caller, seek out undead to rebuke, pick up fell animate.

WotC had an oversight in their class-generation, and a further oversight in thinking that it was important enough to matter.

[The Viscount]

Besides, with a few metamagic reduction tricks, you can have free unlimited zombies by level 4, via Fell Drain + Fell Animate on Kelgore's Grave Mist.

There is a limit on the zombies animated via fell animate. Or are you assuming consumptive field or similar tricks for arbitrarily high cl?


Never use animate dead. It's basically a hole that you just throw expensive onyx into. You take dread necro to eight levels for an uncomfortably large number of HD worth of controlled minions, and just carry around night-caller, seek out undead to rebuke, pick up fell animate.

WotC had an oversight in their class-generation, and a further oversight in thinking that it was important enough to matter.

An overwhelmingly large number of people would disagree with you.

[Optimator]

I guess casting the spell with arcane components is a lot more complicated, given the energy-channeling nature of the spell.

[Just to Browse]

An overwhelmingly large number of people would disagree with you.
Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There is a limit on the zombies animated via fell animate. Or are you assuming consumptive field or similar tricks for arbitrarily high cl? The only limitations on Fell Animate are:

* not more than twice your HD per creature
* You can't create more than twice your CL per spell

That's really it. Well, and your control cap, but that's something that Dread Necros don't generally have a problem with.


An overwhelmingly large number of people would disagree with you.And they'd also be choosing sub-optimal strategies. There are so many other ways to create minions that don't involve throwing Onyx at it.

[lsfreak]

Fell animate is not nearly as reliable for getting minions as animate dead. Even if you're trying to get most of your minions through fell animate, you'd be really stupid to risk losing a good minion because the onyx is a "money sink" (which it isn't, unless you're not picking and choosing what to animate but throwing it at every 1HD-humanoid you run across). Plus it's zombie-only, that's a pretty harsh limitation. And relies heavily on metamagic reducers. Night Caller is also zombie-only, and limited to two per user, and as far as I can tell gets none of the benefits of anything like Undead Mastery, the Corpsecrafter feats, etc.

[Venger]

The only limitations on Fell Animate are:

* not more than twice your HD per creature
* You can't create more than twice your CL per spell

That's really it. Well, and your control cap, but that's something that Dread Necros don't generally have a problem with.

And they'd also be choosing sub-optimal strategies. There are so many other ways to create minions that don't involve throwing Onyx at it.

the line immediately after that in libris mortis is that:


The standard rules for controlling undead (see animate
dead, page 198 of the Player’s Handbook) apply to newly created
undead gained through this metamagic feat.

so there is a finite amount of zombies you can make via fell animate. DNs have a much higher animate dead cap than normal, but it is still a cap

[ShneekeyTheLost]

the line immediately after that in libris mortis is that:

I do believe I mentioned the control cap already, and why DN's don't have as many problems with that. In fact, it's the very last line you quoted before responding...

There's also Spellstitching (particularly something that generates actually useful undead like Animate Skeletal Champion).

In short, Animate Dead is a sucker's bet.

[The Viscount]

While there are often methods that wok better than animate dead, they are often situational or have more restrictions on their use. While animate dead may not be the best for every situation, its reliability makes it too useful to simply ignore, especially for a Dread Necromancer.

[OldTrees1]

Animate Dead is subpar.
Animate Dead(sp) is the 3rd-4th best source of undead control.
A Dread Necromancer really ought to use all the top 5 means of control [in no order]: Rebuke, Command Undead(Spell), Animate Dead, Leadership & Animate Dread Warrior.

[Silva Stormrage]

Animate Dead is subpar.
Animate Dead(sp) is the 3rd-4th best source of undead control.
A Dread Necromancer really ought to use all the top 5 means of control [in no order]: Rebuke, Command Undead(Spell), Animate Dead, Leadership & Animate Dread Warrior.

Eh, Rebuke is dependent on items for the most part so that can be difficult low levels. Command undead requires either the DM sending mindless undead against you or animate dead/fell animate (Which is zombie only) so you can make them then command them. Leadership is often banned and Animate Dread Warrior is level 12 minimum and takes XP to cast (Spellstiched fixes this but still some DM's don't like that).

So animate dead is not the best way to animate creatures but it is the most reliable.

[OldTrees1]

Eh, Rebuke is dependent on items for the most part so that can be difficult low levels. Command undead requires either the DM sending mindless undead against you or animate dead/fell animate (Which is zombie only) so you can make them then command them. Leadership is often banned and Animate Dread Warrior is level 12 minimum and takes XP to cast (Spellstiched fixes this but still some DM's don't like that).

So animate dead is not the best way to animate creatures but it is the most reliable.

Animate Dead is indeed the backbone. However the other pools are useful and have their own pros/cons.

Command Undead(Spell) is the first sizeable pool available, scales quadratically but has few targets that you do not create yourself

Leadership is often sidelined/banned. It will probably give you bragging rights/ prestige but no combat benefits.

Animate Dead is the next sizeable pool to come available. It costs gold (until you get around that). Very reliable but only scales linearly (except for single classed Dread Necromancers)

Rebuke Undead is a small pool but is the earliest option for decent Intellegent undead minions.

Finally there is Animate Dread Warrior which comes late but helps make undead minions remain viable in combat. It does cost xp though so use it sparingly (do not avoid the xp cost).

[Harbinger]

Umm... that's not what a cleric is... or at least that is probably the most narrow and ideologically hidebound definition. I dare you to try and call a Cleric of Vecna that he's a healer/holy water type class and see what happens next...

I know that the cleric is open enough that it can basically be whatever it wants, but that's the very base generic archetype of the class. And if I were to meet an evil cleric of an evil god in real life I think I would be smart enough not to provoke him into killing me and using that spell that he gets three levels before the DN to turn me into his personal undead butler. :smalltongue:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy.
1. Despite his wording "An overwhelmingly large number of people" we can assume he means the majority of posters on this forum, the closest thing there are to experts in the field. So it's actually closer to an Appeal to Authority, which isn't necessarily a fallacy.

2. Unless you're challenging the claim that there is a general consensus, the burden is still on you to back up your claim, since you are recommending that people change their opinion from the majority opinion to your own.

3. Actual Argument; stock 1-2 HD medium humanoid zombies and skeletons are bad and aren't worth 50-100gp, but a small number of large+ skeleton/zombies make excellent fodder pretty much any giant, animal, magical beast or dragon that was close to an equal CR encounter will be worth the price of a potion to animate.

[Silva Stormrage]

Animate Dead is indeed the backbone. However the other pools are useful and have their own pros/cons.

Command Undead(Spell) is the first sizeable pool available, scales quadratically but has few targets that you do not create yourself

Leadership is often sidelined/banned. It will probably give you bragging rights/ prestige but no combat benefits.

Animate Dead is the next sizeable pool to come available. It costs gold (until you get around that). Very reliable but only scales linearly (except for single classed Dread Necromancers)

Rebuke Undead is a small pool but is the earliest option for decent Intellegent undead minions.

Finally there is Animate Dread Warrior which comes late but helps make undead minions remain viable in combat. It does cost xp though so use it sparingly (do not avoid the xp cost).

Um... Isn't that exactly what I said? :smallconfused: Though I would disagree with the rebuke comment, as its really kinda difficult to get intelligent minions with rebuke until mid levels where you can boost your rebuke level with items and reduce undead's turn resistance. A ghoul has effectively 3 HD you need to be a level 6 DN to control a CR 1 minion with rebuke... Not the best use of your time.

[OldTrees1]

Um... Isn't that exactly what I said? :smallconfused: Though I would disagree with the rebuke comment, as its really kinda difficult to get intelligent minions with rebuke until mid levels where you can boost your rebuke level with items and reduce undead's turn resistance. A ghoul has effectively 3 HD you need to be a level 6 DN to control a CR 1 minion with rebuke... Not the best use of your time.

Your reply to my post made me feel that either I had not been clear or that you disagreed with me. So I made a clearer post.

Rebuke Undead was listed 4th since it becomes useful at mid level (after Animate and Leadership). Animate Dread Warrior is the only thing that comes in later.

I do not feel like Rebuke is meant for tough/strong undead. I use it more for utility or support undead. Which is precisely the place Animate Dead is lacking. Of all the undead pools, Animate Dead and Rebuke Undead do the best at covering each other's weak points.

[Silva Stormrage]

Your reply to my post made me feel that either I had not been clear or that you disagreed with me. So I made a clearer post.

Rebuke Undead was listed 4th since it becomes useful at mid level (after Animate and Leadership). Animate Dread Warrior is the only thing that comes in later.

I do not feel like Rebuke is meant for tough/strong undead. I use it more for utility or support undead. Which is precisely the place Animate Dead is lacking. Of all the undead pools, Animate Dead and Rebuke Undead do the best at covering each other's weak points.

Ah now I understand I misunderstood your original post as I thought you were saying most people shouldn't use Animate Dead. My apologies.

The thing with rebuke undead is that you can end up control some REALLY powerful creatures with the correct items. For instance, Lyre of Restful Soul + Rod of Defiance combined with rod of the netherworld at level 9 will allow you to rebuke and command a level 14 bone creature wizard. Without the items to boost your rebuking level sky high ya it's probably better for utility and some incorporeal undead.