Help me with fleshing out this roleplaying concept for a Big Bad, please.

[gorilla-turtle]

How does this sound:

A man had an encounter with the creator of the universe over a hundred-thousand years ago, and has since become unable to completely die. His soul does not go to rest in the proper afterlife based on his actions while he lived, but instead reincarnates itself with all of his memories and experience intact. He can recall all of his past lives, good or bad, from Ogre Barbarian to Halfling Druid to Orc Wizard; he's had a long life to live.

After about half of this span, he started going very crazy... but within the latest stretch of his existance, the man regained his sanity, and began preparing each of his successive incarnations to be better prepared for their lives as he planned a way to change his destiny by acquiring the power that he encountered earlier, and making it his own.

Once this power is gained, it will be acted upon in one or two ways. The easiest goal is to use it to kill himself and destroy his own soul, finally severing his bond to the living world and achieving peace in non-existance.

The alternative: to bear the responsibility his extreme knowledge and experience provide, and command that power. Having been exposed to civilizations or the evils of mortal men, deciding once and for all to bring an end to their fighting and differences, be it under a tight fisted reign or as a benevolent god king in human flesh; be it in a structured and unified society, or by changing the fundamental rules that the living have autonymously set for themselves.

-----------------------------

What alignment does such an entity peg as? And is this backstory justification beyond "I say so" for a Story Enemy who starts off with Venerable Stat Bonuses in a non-venerable body, ontop of Level Up and Inherent Bonuses to his stats already, those things having all been paid for and accounted for in recent past lives.

Additional Question, should I decide to roll him as a Cleric (obviously he need not require a deity to be able to prepare spells): What would be the ramifications for this character being able to access the Good, Evil, Law and Chaos domains at the same time (provided he could gain 4 domains at once)? How exactly would/should that mess with affects that rely on targets needing specific alignments? Immunity? Extra weaknesses?

[OldTrees1]

You have merely detailed his curse. His alignment would be determined by more information.


Yes, the story justifies +3 to all mental stats at the minimum.

[EugeneVoid]

His alignment is:
Whatever you want it to be.
I'd say true neutral, because he's undecided and he's lived so long, he's really past the point of good, evil, lawful, and chaos.

But, really, the alignment system in D&D can really be stretched to any interpretation.

[Crake]

He could just set up contingent mind rapes just before he's about to die which completely wipe his memory?

[Evandar]

I'd call it True Neutral because he has probably transcended anything else.

The Mind Rape thing is probably valid given some precise planning, but it'd really be better to pretend the spell doesn't exist than ruin a perfectly good character.

And yeah, his backstory totally justifies hugely increased mental stats. He can be obscenely overpowered and the protagonists will find a way, as they are wont to do.

[Killer Angel]

What alignment does such an entity peg as?

I would say heavily neutral



And is this backstory justification beyond "I say so" for a Story Enemy who starts off with Venerable Stat Bonuses in a non-venerable body, ontop of Level Up and Inherent Bonuses to his stats already, those things having all been paid for and accounted for in recent past lives.

Go with it! :smallwink:

[Corinath]

We're on the verge of getting deeply philosophical this morning. :)

I'd say either True Neutral, or Neutral Evil, or Neutral Good, depending on the following.

As with everyone else, his incredible age puts him past law and chaos. He very likely doesn't embody either discipline on account of his insanely deep perspective. Weather or not he is Good, Neutral, or Evil depends on the interpretation of the following:


Once this power is gained, it will be acted upon in one or two ways. The easiest goal is to use it to kill himself and destroy his own soul, finally severing his bond to the living world and achieving peace in non-existance.

The alternative: to bear the responsibility his extreme knowledge and experience provide, and command that power. Having been exposed to civilizations or the evils of mortal men, deciding once and for all to bring an end to their fighting and differences, be it under a tight fisted reign or as a benevolent god king in human flesh; be it in a structured and unified society, or by changing the fundamental rules that the living have autonymously set for themselves.

If he acquires this power in an obsessive manner, wherein he becomes shortsighted and ego-centric (Because, perhaps, he's seen so many lifetimes worth of death and destruction that it means nothing), and he's willing to sacrifice others for his own goal (self-destruction), then it's pretty much the RAI of an Evil alignment.

(Side note, I've always interpreted "Evil" as "Ego-Centric". In this regard, I could bend Paladins to be Evil by maybe forcing their belief's onto others under the guise of "Saving their souls". Not everyone wants to be rescued.)

If he acquires this power in a slow paced, but incredibly detached manner. One in which he knows that time is on his side, ergo he doesn't have to rush. But also, having seen too much, likely doesn't get involved in the world. That's about as True Neutral as you can get.

If he's somehow acquired the belief that everything is precious, no matter what, and that perfection lay in the moment (a very "monk" philosophy, if you will), while still wishing to enter non-existence, and tends to help others who aren't "cursed" with immortality the way he is, then he's diving into Neutral Good.

[Emperor Tippy]

True Neutral. While in many ways chaos holds the greatest reign over him (due to the randomness of reincarnation), he has seen and been everything and has simply moved beyond Law and Chaos, Good and Evil. At least unless he has chosen to firmly commit himself to some alignment or code.

[Grayson01]

If s/he goes with the first option I would go with TN.

If s/he goes with the conquest of the world Option it would depend on which of the sub options and means as to which s/he attains this NWO and in what way he reigns. I would acctually like to hear more about this option.

[cakellene]

Reminds me of Planescape: Torment.

[gorilla-turtle]

@ cakellene: I missed that reference.

@ grayson01: Relatively simple in both regards: Having spent multiple life times silently mastering arcane magic, divine magic, psionics and the like, and having no more affect on himself, even epic level magic, than simply slitting his own throat, he believes that only the power of a God itself can end his condition ultimately. In this setting, the first creator god was split into 10 fragments: 6 of them form a general pantheon that oversees the people, 3 take the place of what would essentially be the Devil, and 1 fragment, more powerful than the remaining 9 fragments combined, belongs to that of the original god, now catatonic and supporting all of creation merely by existing. By accessing that one last fragment, the bit that unknowingly cursed him (possibly 1-2 others as well, actually), this character feels he can finally free himself from being bound to existance, and allow himself to disappear all together.

If not, then with that same power, bringing all of the gods together and having each of them answer for their own self-centered adjendas and the state of war and chaos the world suffers from in an attempt to serve the gods would be the first task of this character upon obtaining his godhood. After that, he would assimilate each one of them into himself, becoming the new creator god reborn. From here, the living world left behind would be tested: to prove that they can and do deserve to continue living as is, or be subject to instrumentality.

@ Corinath: So long as moderators feel no need to close anything down, this shouldn't be a problem.

As for how he intends to obtain this power, he has litterally lived a thousand life times (and has even found ways to speed up the time between his reincarnation's birth and that species' adult hood, aided by follows sympathetic to his plight or coherced/convinced to serve him). He is not above betrayel nor murder, but he is also willing to assist others, and even sacrifice his own life (though that is a minor tribute when you already know it to be something you can not lose) to further his plans.

Ultimately, his path is most likely pragmatic: His potential desire for a world of peace, even at the risk of the loss of all things just, free, righteous, or horrible, is the second to only backup thought (the first being an everlasting peace for himself) to do anything at all, rather than succumb to insanity and just perpetually die, enjoying relative peace only while in the form of a newborn, briefly incapable of being cognosent of his own plight. I'm not sure whether or not life could be seen as precious to him: if anything, those who can perform achievements in the blink-of-an-eye timespan (to him) that the average being lives in are special, beings that do not age and await only a return to the same primal forces that spawned them are pitiable, and those who seek to be immortal or beyond time and space (like himself) are fools.

@ Crake and Evandar: He has even delved into Epic Level Magic to attempt just to free his mind. The only result of it is remembering that he tried to mindrape/programmable-amnesia himself, with little to no avail.

@ Anyone else not specified: True Neutral (Neutral Evil) was about the range I intended for this character to go (once having tried to sell his soul in hopes that the demons would torture him to insanity, only to find out upon his next resurrection that the transaction could not be processed; the usurption of the gods and the complete underminding of civilized society, possibly even the end of the world is also not generally a good thing), so I'm glad that was largely the most common response back. One additional mechanical question was added to the op, along with this explination.

[Dalebert]

But, really, the alignment system in D&D can really be stretched to any interpretation.

I have to second this. The alignment system drastically oversimplifies character motivations. A friend of mine is running a system without alignments so there is no such spell as detect villain. Sorry, I mean detect evil.

I think a lot of people have things they feel principled about and other things they don't feel so principled about. Morality is inherently complex. Else why would we have so many arguments about what's right and wrong? Doing away with alignments is a good first step toward not having cartoonish stereotypes for most characters.

[Vanitas]

Reminds me of Planescape: Torment.

My thoughts exactly.

[WbtE]

Looking at this backstory, the antagonist seems like he could be arbitrarily powerful. I get a vibe that the PCs aren't meant to smack this guy down so much as reason with him, so why should it matter what his stats are? If that is the set-up that you have in mind, then his alignment should be neutral.

As an aside...


Doing away with alignments is a good first step toward not having cartoonish stereotypes for most characters.

From my experience games without alignments (such as those devised by Mr. Rein.Hagen), I can assure you that cartoonish stereotypes are not a consequence of the alignment system. A far more likely explanation is widespread exposure to cartoons at a formative age. :smallwink: I do agree with you to some extent, but I think the problem is that we have the rules for 1e style alignment-as-allegiance combined with the fluff of 2e and onwards alignment-as-personality. D&D needs to pick one and stick to it.

[gorilla-turtle]

@ cakellene and Vanitas, I have finally investigated Planescape: Torment a bit. And while the situation is a bit different in a few areas, the comparison is understandable. As I understand it, the Nameless One once committed some awful attrocity, and sought immortality to have enough time to redeem himself of this sin. In doing so, he was cursed to be reborn after each death, but being unable to remember his previous lives, and during the game, your job is to see him regain his memories, in doing so regaining control over his mortality. Is that the general jist of it?

@Dalebert and WbtE, I'm not sure about nixing the alignment system myself, if only because quite a bit of the mechanics are founded on it and lots of players enjoy it. The Order of the Stick uses it, and I honestly think that both the jokes they've thrown in, and the story in general certainly isn't hurt by it. That said, this is decent food for thought, and I thank you for it.


Looking at this backstory, the antagonist seems like he could be arbitrarily powerful. I get a vibe that the PCs aren't meant to smack this guy down so much as reason with him, so why should it matter what his stats are? If that is the set-up that you have in mind, then his alignment should be neutral.
I have always seen reasoning with him as an option, though it would require quite the feat to change the mind of someone who has been alive, in a sense, for over a hundred thousand years, and has been planning his latest movements for a solid milenium, to the point of playing both the forces of good and evil in various empires and organizations to his benefit, either through his incarnations or by those who are coerced / forced / persuaded to working under him. I'm not sure how persuasive you can be toward someone to whom your existance is the equivalent of a blink, let alone a breath, and to whom not even death is an end. I'd say it might be more likely for them to agree with his rationale and start supporting his efforts themselves, though I doubt a theistic cleric would support this man becoming a God and absorbing the other Gods into himself too much...

That said, if something exists in game, there's a 50% chance minimum that -someone- will try to attack it. And them killing him in his current form and causing him to become a reoccuring enemy to them until they figure out how to put him down for good or succumb to him is just as viable an option.

I actually just realized I'm not sure how the Gods would respond to this man, either. Surely they would be aware of his existance, but, as how the Gods normally are in most games, they can't directly act on the material plane, and he would have little problem (with an estimated Intelligence of anywhere from 30-40) covering his tracks and dealing with, passively or violently, any Cleric that came his way. Would issues between the Gods of Good (and Neutrality) against the Gods of Evil be a just reason for this man to not be an active target of theirs?

Or even for his own existance of a fragment of the original God be justification for the deities not being able to touch him directly? How would one deal with a man who can never be permanently killed off and can kill himself to escape permanent punishment on the mortal realm? I like the idea of one of his younger lives, after trying and failing to get the Gods of Good to end his misery, attempting to sell his soul to one of the Evil Gods in hopes that eternal torture would be able to completely revoke his sanity and that the God would be able to overcome his condition, but not even that would pan out, his soul unable to be collected before it is reborn into society again....

[Corinath]

@ Corinath: So long as moderators feel no need to close anything down, this shouldn't be a problem.

As for how he intends to obtain this power, he has litterally lived a thousand life times (and has even found ways to speed up the time between his reincarnation's birth and that species' adult hood, aided by follows sympathetic to his plight or coherced/convinced to serve him). He is not above betrayel nor murder, but he is also willing to assist others, and even sacrifice his own life (though that is a minor tribute when you already know it to be something you can not lose) to further his plans.

Ultimately, his path is most likely pragmatic: His potential desire for a world of peace, even at the risk of the loss of all things just, free, righteous, or horrible, is the second to only backup thought (the first being an everlasting peace for himself) to do anything at all, rather than succumb to insanity and just perpetually die, enjoying relative peace only while in the form of a newborn, briefly incapable of being cognosent of his own plight. I'm not sure whether or not life could be seen as precious to him: if anything, those who can perform achievements in the blink-of-an-eye timespan (to him) that the average being lives in are special, beings that do not age and await only a return to the same primal forces that spawned them are pitiable, and those who seek to be immortal or beyond time and space (like himself) are fools.



To the first point, to me, that's the definition of an evil character. His actions are purely predicated on weather or not someone else can help them, and not through a greater sense of empathy or social responsibility. That's one reason why I move up the "alignment" ladder in that regard. Chaotic Good characters have absolutely the best intentions for the world, and the people around them. And the perseverance of life, but, hey, occasionally you break an egg that needs to get broken.

His goals don't seem to be close to alignment with that.

Also, "World Peace" is a relatively obscure goal, unfortunately. There will never be world peace, ever. There can be a complete obfuscation of war, or the nature of war, but even when no one sheds blood in the name of a country, wars are waged in the form of economy. He's likely seen, in his innumerable lifetime, the word "war" become so muddled that it means little to him. There will always be war. And, simultaneously, there will always be peace. It's sort of an ebb and flow thing.

We, as humans, are natural teachers and are naturally socially aligned. Just because billions of children have existed in the world, doesn't mean we will start treating children differently. He could be shown to become a "good" aligned character by embracing the notion that his burden is a "destiny". Perhaps his mission is an endless journey to better the lives of those around him, for theirs are brief and ephemeral in nature, which, perhaps, he yearns for, and his is not. Bittersweet in that regard.

In such a way he could acknowledge the pain and burden of immortality, while also being shown the "light".

This would make for a very interesting dynamic, and possible outcome for the character.

The true "carrot on the stick" for this character is how he is handling the burden of his immortality, which, despite his many lifetimes, it seems he hasn't done yet. He's likely fallen in love millions of times, and lost every single one of them. Had countless families that he's possibly visited in separate lifetimes, and been unable to explain his plight to them. Or even address them as sons and daughters. His pain could just as easily stem from a desire to love as it could from the monotony of countless lifetimes.

What is the solution for him then?

True Death, in which he descends into the amorality of his inward, dark journey. Identifying with no one. Nothing. Forcing the heroes to kill him while he, perhaps, begs for a lasting death.

Or, perhaps…

True Life, in which the heroes redeem him. Find a way to establish a continuity of lifeline for him in the same way we regard the Dali Lama as the reincarnation of Buddha (iirc). Ergo, when he, perhaps, rejoins the world in a new form, it is no longer a shell shocking experience to re-assimilate into society. They know who he his. As does he.

Long post is long.

[Trunamer]

"Not above betrayal and murder." "Coerces / forces others to do stuff."

Yeah, he's definitely some flavor of Evil.



Or even for his own existance of a fragment of the original God be justification for the deities not being able to touch him directly? How would one deal with a man who can never be permanently killed off and can kill himself to escape permanent punishment on the mortal realm?
Same way you deal with Wolverine: you simply restrain him. If he's restrained, he can't kill himself.

[WbtE]

I have always seen reasoning with him as an option, though it would require quite the feat to change the mind of someone who has been alive, in a sense, for over a hundred thousand years, and has been planning his latest movements for a solid milenium, to the point of playing both the forces of good and evil in various empires and organizations to his benefit, either through his incarnations or by those who are coerced / forced / persuaded to working under him. I'm not sure how persuasive you can be toward someone to whom your existance is the equivalent of a blink, let alone a breath, and to whom not even death is an end.

Realism has to make some space for heroic fantasy. An impassioned speech that stresses some particular reason for changing course should, at least, provoke the Ancient to let the characters prove it. (This could create a very interesting quest!)


That said, if something exists in game, there's a 50% chance minimum that -someone- will try to attack it. And them killing him in his current form and causing him to become a reoccuring enemy to them until they figure out how to put him down for good or succumb to him is just as viable an option.

Perhaps. I would recommend that the party be simply defeated on their first attempt, but that the Ancient not make any real effort to slaughter them. They shouldn't be allowed to defeat an opponent like this without researching its weaknesses.


Would issues between the Gods of Good (and Neutrality) against the Gods of Evil be a just reason for this man to not be an active target of theirs?

This, along with other concerns about the Gods, depends too much on what these entities are like in your milieu for me to help.

[Xintas]

Feels that he is right above all others, wants others to justify their actions and existence to him, seeks vengeance or dominance.

Ya, definitely Evil. Not "beyond understanding, bonkers evil", but the more sinister "I can totally see how you got there but you are still all kinds of scary" evil.

In this case, he is working within the system and is very methodical. I'm going to take a step out and say that he is very Lawful Evil.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would call him LE and give him +3 to all mental stats, a spattering of odd bonus feats, and able learner + nymphs kiss. He has been there, done that, and knows how to talk to people.

[Xintas]

Unless I missed "but he's good pals with this Fey creature; they totally go way back", I do not know why he would have Nymph's kiss.

Able learner, I totally get. Bonus mental skills, eh? Is he really more Charismatic or does he sometimes forget that it isn't the 4th century and put his foot in his mouth talking about "Back in my day, there were no female adventurers, only wenches!"

I'm not trying to make him sounds like a crazy old hermit or anything, but I would say that in this case, the rules have already been thrown out the window. Give him what is appropriate.

[Fouredged Sword]

I was thinking that an extra skill point per level and +2 to charisma based skills seemed like it was appropriate, irrespective of the fluff and prereqs. I would ignore those. He seems like a leader type, and that much practice and guiding people seems like he would be good at it.

[AMFV]

The I-Say-So should definitely be enough, also how would your players know he had the venerable stat boosts, without you telling them directly? That seems unnecessary. I think that living forever tends towards evil in the D&D universe at least in some periphery sense, it requires looking less at the small things and that makes for a more evil bent anyways. He might still be neutral, but I doubt it, since he's willing to exploit others to reach his ends.

[malmblad]

A character concept like this can't exist without impacting the cultural flavor of the world, and I'm curious if any world flavor has been fleshed out?

I'm making assumptions but he probably didn't give much thought to hiding his immortal existence for quite some time. And during his mad period he probably did't care about hiding it. Going back over a hundred thousand years he would seep into the basest aspects of culture.

How do parents react to discovering their child is this powerful being? What kind of mythos would that create in the world? Would there be legends of crib swapping changelings? Would people believe a "Rosemary's Baby" is born to ever generation. Or would the pattern of reincarnation be part of a mythos more like the Dalai Lama?
What sort of orders and/or sects would develop from this? Are there ceremonies to ward off the "crib swappings" or chroniclers following the many lives of this cursed/holy individual.

[gorilla-turtle]

@ Corinorath: About the first point, I may or may not have miscommunicated about him (though then again, days of reading these posts and trying to apply the concepts brought from them may have also retconned things previously mentioned about him; I hope that is not the case). Watching and learning through time that everyone you have ever known and loved has long since moved on from this plane while you are permanently stuck in an eternal limbo filled with the wars and corruption of living beings may have stripped him of much of his morality, but he is not unwilling to assist someone just because they can not help him. "Just Passing Through" / "Villains Out Shoping" (I personally see him going Neutral Evil through the ends not justifying the means or the end itself being misguided if he is unable to self terminate and starts seeking Godhood) / "Think Nothing Of It" are genuine excuses for this situation, but for a good tens of thousands of years, he's had no goal. Staving off insanity / Final Death has been his only real objective until just recently, and wandering the planes, living and learning everything, has helped in all such fields.

If anything, the wars fought between and for the gods, and the corruption of the devils tanting the world, and all of the violence and bloodshed caused because of it, would have him be more likely to intervein when convenient, at least, even if he doesn't go out of his way to be a martyr. You're right in that he does not feel any social responsibility to assist anyone; seeing in the grand scheme of things that the average actions of others lives are, for the most part, inconsequential, and his own actions being relevant only because he has had exponentially longer than anyone else to see them completed, ruins any chance of him having alligances with others, and because he knows how fleeting the existances of his families are, he really can't even feel social regard toward the groups he is born into, quickly becoming a loner and a wanderer as soon as possible.

As for World Peace, this is ultimately a recent plan of mine for him. I have been trying to figure out how to make this character, who will be an incredibly powerful opponent, have some reason for impacting the plot of what would otherwise be a sandbox game. I also wanted this secondary goal to be adjustable / vague enough that, from a certain point of view, this villain can be seen eye to eye with, and even potentially agreed with, and yet just as easily been seen as wrong and disagreed with. And an Assimilation Plot based on the Evils of Free Will, with world peace coming as a result of eliminating laws and regulations that artificially chain people down, individual desires and selfish goals that come without judgement of the grand scheme of things, and the arbitrary alliances invisioned by the self righteous and the corrupted that lead to even further bloodshed; that is the most coherent answer I have to this question.

Your dynamic of a way he could be played as an entirely good character is an excellent idea, though. Maybe if talked down or stopped from killing himself or causing instrumentality, and redeemed rather than permanently sealed away somehow, this could be his final destiny. This game is being designed for a friend, and that friend's player character is the exact kind of person willing to try for this end. On the other hand, I am a terrible writer, as you may not have guessed, and I am not sure what you mean by "carrot on the stick". Though the rest of that thought, you are quite accurate. Love loses a bit of the value it holds when you know you will be permanently seperated from everyone you care about, only occasionally getting to him due to the weakness of the body and spirit, yearning for affection and intimacy even against what one believes is right.

... I am very grateful for opening this thread. Ideas are excellent.

I think I might be taking your comment about True Death too literally, though, since that is his current base goal: find a way to kill the part of him that is tethered to creation and unable to truly stay dead. How does forcing the party to kill him do this, when, unless they found some way to subvert this aspect of him, they would just end up slaying his current body? If anything, such a setback would be an annoyance at best to him.

@ Trunamer: Neutral characters are willing to kill and trick enemies, too. Not that I'm defending that part of your analysis; just staying. I will say that coerced probably was not the correct word when thinking about him having Leadership, though I suppose that is still an option, too. South of neutral does seem right for him.

However, I do not see restraining a near epic spellcaster who has an intelligence rivaling or greater than that of any genius that has ever lived, unwittingly protected by the power that fueled creation itself, to be an option on the table. Though, at least as it stands, I see no reason why being permanently sealed away somehow would not work... then again, this sort of thing is why he would have allies to assist him: those who have been saved by his hand, have benefited from his knowledge, or who believe in his message, could potentially seek to undo the work of the players.

@ WbtE, oh, definitely an option. Both before, and after accessing the creator (but probably not much of an option once he assimilates the other deities), talking to him and being convincing enough is always on the table. In fact (in part because of Trunamer), the option of convincing him, should he be unable to kill himself even when he can access the power of the creator, to leave things as they are and simply sleep for eternity (ie voluntarily fail a temporal stasis save or the like, and have his body unable to be accessed, at least without extreme difficulty) would be a good ending to his story.

While I am not sure that this character will have any specific weaknesses to exploit, persay, I have no intention of him slaughtering the pcs, or anyone really, unless forced. And to force him to do anything would require a great deal of power on their part.

I am still figuring details concerning the exact nature of the gods in the setting... perhapse this thread belongs in a different section of the forum? World building, maybe?

@ Xintas, Lawful Evil... I am not sure how true it is that he works within the system, given that his existance predates any and all modern systems, and without certain steps taken, will exist even after the system has long since been ravaged by time inmemorium, but a code of ethics known to and only followed by himself could justify that viewpoint...

As for what is appropriate... the highest I think I could go is +5 Inherent to each stat, and +3 Aging to his mental stats, along with his 5 level up points preapplied to his intelligence. His mind remembers each injury, cut, bruise, and death his body has suffered, and his body is far easier to strengthen than the average mortals because of it. With the right combination of classes and race, along with level up bonuses, I potentially see a stat spread of 14 / 22 / 22 / 34 / 16 / 16 in Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha. Throw on a Belt of Magnificence for an excellent stat array. At the very least, the increased aging and a slightly higher than average base set seems justified, if the former is too outrageous. 10/16/16/26/12/12, factoring in level up and aging, I think.

@ malmblad, no, I have not worked on the world as much yet. I figure I should plan villains first, and let what they do and want help lay the foundation for the rest of the setting. And this was the first to be focused on. I do see him as having a rather large affect on the world itself, though. The Epic of Gilgamesh has not gone unnoticed in the real world, and I feel that the Ancient One would have had impact on the world in a similar manner. I also see him as having had enough life times to be able to practice and perfect any craft of his choice, swordsmanship, archery, magic of both divine and arcane nature, even psionics and the martial arts (though rarely ever more than once per life time). The exploits of each of these incarnations of his would probably be famous for those achievements, and their methods may or may not be what spread the most throughout the world.

...though I have also toyed with most of the history before he became wise enough to conceal his existance and attempt to end it to have been muttered due to the clashing of the forces of good and evil after the gods bound themselves to keep the arch fiends from being able to affect the world any further. The stories from that point would be sparce at best.

To clarify, as a child he is actually normal (as normal as a child can be expected to be in D&D, anyway), baring the dreams and nightmares of his past. His memories lie only in his subconcious until he becomes old enough that, at a certain point, they and their full weight flood into his concious being. His abilities would be above the standard norm, yes, but, to take an example from recent popular culture, I doubt that he would be quite publically known as "The Avatar", persay. I can see the pieces of his lives, similar characterizations and appearances throughout different races possibly having some meaning to them, potentially tracked, but I had not put thought into it quite being chronicled by any specific force yet.

I hope I have not been wavering back and forth from one set of thoughts to the next. These have all been excellent ideas, and have helped me think a great deal about him and the setting in general. I appreciate all input greatly.

[Kol Korran]

The problem I would see as a player with this is how didn't he get his goal already? 100,000 years is a very long time, and this guy had been accumulating knowledge, power and more through out his lives. It stands to reason that if he remembers the past lives and powers, then he is an epic multiclass in many classes and more, and his knowledge is unfathomable.

If I may suggest, you need to give this guy some serious draw back to make it plausible and believable for the players to be able to confront him. I have an idea (Which undoubtedly comes from some other source, can't remember)- Some of the craziness remain, and the guy has a true split personality, due to his split lives. He is in fact a sort of a community of lives. He doesn't have one alignment, but rather he has all of them, with the various interpretations, for different characters. They at the same time fight each other, work with each other to fulfill the goal, where all have come to the conclusion that attaining the god's power is the only way to achieve the different goals, working towards it while trying to assert influence at what the final goal will be.

The different personas can have different interactions with the PCs, and they may have different classes, powers and such. I'm not sure how the personas might alternate between them, but some of it may be intentional, some of it may be not so much, possibly with the PCs able to find the "triggers" for personality changes. But all personas are determined that getting the god's power is the right thing to do. On this they agree.

I think it might prove alike a very interesting "multi villain", and work in an interesting way.

[Tim Proctor]

X = lives saved by batman
Y = lives saved by person that killed batman's parents

Y = X-2.

Guy who killed batman's parents is CG, his actions have saved countless lives minus the two parents.

I don't think RAW matters, you don't need to roll the guy at all. Give him the stats you want and leave it at that. If they player enjoy the story and it is a good match up then you did a good job as a DM.

[gorilla-turtle]

The problem I would see as a player with this is how didn't he get his goal already? 100,000 years is a very long time, and this guy had been accumulating knowledge, power and more through out his lives. It stands to reason that if he remembers the past lives and powers, then he is an epic multiclass in many classes and more, and his knowledge is unfathomable.

In my head, I had invisioned him coming back in different forms each time. Different cultural backgrounds, different genders, and different races and classes. The main reason it was for 100,000 years is because of Elves: To beings capable of living for almost 1000 years themselves, 100,000 only seems like a few generations. I suppose if he was just human each time, then that time period could likely be shortened to make a bit more sense.

And while his remembering everything enables him to learn and develop each life even faster than before, every time his soul reincarnated (as opposed to being revived through magic at his immediate death like Raise Dead), I had always figured he would come back as a 1st level character each time, struggling to regain the power each life possessed and more.

That said, 10,000 years is still a long time for one's plans to go completely unopposed... perhapse being vunerable to being sealed away might work in my advantage for the sake of a story...


If I may suggest, you need to give this guy some serious draw back to make it plausible and believable for the players to be able to confront him. I have an idea (Which undoubtedly comes from some other source, can't remember)- Some of the craziness remain, and the guy has a true split personality, due to his split lives. He is in fact a sort of a community of lives. He doesn't have one alignment, but rather he has all of them, with the various interpretations, for different characters. They at the same time fight each other, work with each other to fulfill the goal, where all have come to the conclusion that attaining the god's power is the only way to achieve the different goals, working towards it while trying to assert influence at what the final goal will be.

The different personas can have different interactions with the PCs, and they may have different classes, powers and such. I'm not sure how the personas might alternate between them, but some of it may be intentional, some of it may be not so much, possibly with the PCs able to find the "triggers" for personality changes. But all personas are determined that getting the god's power is the right thing to do. On this they agree.

I think it might prove alike a very interesting "multi villain", and work in an interesting way.

This seems incredibly difficult to write about, but the idea is one I find fascinating. Multiple lives all straining the same soul at once over time, some seeking to save the world, some to reset, some to rule, and some to destroy, all together both competing for and working toward the singular goal of obtaining Godhood... very nice.


X = lives saved by batman
Y = lives saved by person that killed batman's parents

Y = X-2.

Guy who killed batman's parents is CG, his actions have saved countless lives minus the two parents.

I don't think RAW matters, you don't need to roll the guy at all. Give him the stats you want and leave it at that. If they player enjoy the story and it is a good match up then you did a good job as a DM.

The vote of confidence is assuring, but I do not think that a criminal whose only interests were to steal from a family and ends up killing them can be called Good, just because his actions produced one of the greatest heroes of the world. If anything, such a character could only be called Ironic.