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Aximili
2007-01-15, 10:22 AM
Ok, I heard about a Character Build that could add up to 300 damage for each -1 penalty sufered from power attack. At first I simply dismissed it as no more than exagerated rumors. However, I can't tell how many times I've been surprised by what people can do with the rules, and, while this simply screams to me "not possible!", I thought it'd be better to just ask around.

So here I am. Have you heard of it?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-15, 10:23 AM
No, that's an exaggeration. You can get it up to 1:8-ish, though.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-15, 10:25 AM
Yeah, lemme see...
Start with the pally-standard Greatsword, held two-handed for a 1:2 ratio.
Add leaping attack ups that again for 1:3...

...and that's as far as I can take it. :P
Sorry, my min-max fu is weak.

Thomas
2007-01-15, 10:26 AM
Frenzied Berserker figures into it, obviously. Add Leap Attack. And... I think that's about it.

Aximili
2007-01-15, 10:37 AM
Well, I don't recall the exact numbers, by I remember you can get to double digits (though I remember the build was epic level). In fact, I wouldn't even asked this if I didn't know for sure you can get at least further than 1:20. But that third digit really scared me.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-15, 10:37 AM
Doesn't the Exotic Weapon Master have the option to do some nifty stuff with bonus damage? I can't remember and don't have the right book here...

WildBill
2007-01-15, 11:00 AM
How do you get as high as 1:10?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-15, 11:01 AM
Combine Power Attack, Leap Attack, the Battle Jump regional feat if you're allowed to take it, Combat Brute, and the Frenzied Berserker class. Sprinkle in things that multiply damage on a charge, like the Valorous weapon enhancement, and a pounce ability from somewhere.

Penguinizer
2007-01-15, 11:01 AM
Nothing close to hulking hurler. 1000d6 damage with a huge ball of lead ftw :P

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-15, 11:03 AM
Nothing close to hulking hurler. 1000d6 damage with a huge ball of lead ftw :P
Captain Ennet and his 150+ UMD-bearing crewmen with high-CL wands of fireball beg to differ.

...no, I'm not planning on doing that to my DM! That would be just AWFUL.

Coffee_Dragon
2007-01-15, 11:07 AM
There's some major disagreement whether things like Leap Attack follow the normal rules of multiplication or are applied sequentially to the Power Attack ratio. Supposedly WotC customer service even said that the FAQ is wrong and should/will be changed.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-15, 11:08 AM
Favoured Enemy Power Attack (and the 3.0 Shadowlands Power Attack it appears to be based off) lets you increase it but it's too specific.

Yakk
2007-01-15, 11:08 AM
Charging on Lances?

Ikkitosen
2007-01-15, 11:57 AM
Charging on Lances?

Leap-Attack Centaur? :smallfrown:

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-15, 12:19 PM
Frenzied Berserker goes as high as 4:1
Combat Brute brings it further to 5:1 or 6:1
Couple of Feats from Draconomicon will bring a weapon's multiplier up as much as 3 grades(so x4 becomes x7, for example), as high as 12:1
Leap Attack simply doubles everything, so 24:1

Note that all these presume you're either using a Heavy Pick or Scythe in both hands.

If you go by the Savage Species optional extra-hand-rule, you could further extrapolate the Power Attack progression, making it go up by 1 multiplier(*3 on basic PA with none of the above stuff yet) for the third hand, 2(*4) for using in four hands, etc. That's absolutely disgusting though.

menschenfresser
2007-01-15, 01:04 PM
but that 24:1 would only be on a critical then, or what ? 0_o ?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-15, 01:12 PM
That is indeed correct.

Ramza00
2007-01-15, 01:12 PM
A thri keen or similar build with multiple hands, all of which are used to manhandle one weapon?

Deathcow
2007-01-15, 01:28 PM
Hey, what books are Leap Attack and Shock Trooper from? CWar?

Thomas
2007-01-15, 01:33 PM
Hey, what books are Leap Attack and Shock Trooper from? CWar?

Yep, Complete Warrior.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-15, 01:33 PM
Leap Attack simply doubles everything, so 24:1

Is there a rules reference for why Leap Attack doesn't use the normal combining multiples rules?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-15, 01:56 PM
It reads "...you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack."

Zherog
2007-01-15, 02:02 PM
Leap Attack is from Complete Adventurer, not Complete Warrior. And the errata for the feat reads as follows:


Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:

If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

So, Leap Attack only doubles the normal damage of your weapon on a Power Attack. Or, in other words, it doesn't multiply the stuff from (for example) Frenzied Berserker.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-15, 02:08 PM
A thri keen or similar build with multiple hands, all of which are used to manhandle one weapon?

Pity the Hecatoncheires has trouble coordinating his hundred arms...

Ramza00
2007-01-15, 02:10 PM
So in sum leap attack just adds one more number to the power attack ratio.

Yakk
2007-01-15, 02:59 PM
Multipliers in D&D add, they don't multiply.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-15, 04:05 PM
So in sum leap attack just adds one more number to the power attack ratio.


Multipliers in D&D add, they don't multiply.

This is what I thought too. Thanks for the reference Zherog.

Aximili
2007-01-15, 04:27 PM
Ok, I'm putting together what's been said here, and I'll post it when it's over. Though it won't even get close to 1:300.

Where's the valorous weapon enhancement?

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-15, 04:27 PM
There's some major disagreement whether things like Leap Attack follow the normal rules of multiplication or are applied sequentially to the Power Attack ratio. Supposedly WotC customer service even said that the FAQ is wrong and should/will be changed.

This of course means the FAQ is perfectly correct in every way, as cust serv are dirty rotten liars.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-15, 04:35 PM
This of course means the FAQ is perfectly correct in every way, as cust serv are dirty rotten liars.

But what if they know we know they're dirty rotten liars, and so they're telling us the truth in hopes that we'll mistake it for a lie?

...Even worse, what if they know we know they know we know, and so they're lying again to pre-empt us? :smalleek:

Yes, that sentence really does follow the rules of English grammar and really does make perfect sense. Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

Aximili
2007-01-15, 04:48 PM
Here's the thing:

To improve directly the damage bonus from PA we've got:
Favored Power Attack (FPA) allows you to deal penalty*3 in damage;
Combat Brute (CB) allows you to deal penalty*3 in damage;
Frenzied Beserker (FB) increases the total bonus damage by 100%;(errata)
Leap Attack (LA) increases the total bonus damage by 100%;(errata)

To improve the total damage we've got:
Charging With lance, x2;
Charging feat, x3;
Cavalier class feature (lvl 2), x4;
With the Battle jump, x5.

Obviously the ones that improve damage are applied after (and separately) the ones that improved only the power attack.
1)1x3x3=5; 5+100%+100%=15
2)15x5=75

1:75, unless I did some bad adding or multiplying. Plese let me know if I did.

This would need some major alignment change and either great planning or epic level. But I'm really just looking for the numbers. 8 more levels of cavalier could get it to 1:90.

Zherog
2007-01-15, 05:25 PM
This is what I thought too. Thanks for the reference Zherog.

No problem.


Here's the thing:

To improve directly the damage bonus from PA we've got:
Favored Power Attack (FPA) allows you to deal penalty*3 in damage;
Combat Brute (CB) allows you to deal penalty*3 in damage;
Frenzied Beserker (FB) increases the total bonus damage by 100%;(errata)
Leap Attack (LA) increases the total bonus damage by 100%;(errata)

To improve the total damage we've got:
Charging With lance, x2;
Charging feat, x3;
Cavalier class feature (lvl 2), x4;
With the Battle jump, x5.

Obviously the ones that improve damage are applied after (and separately) the ones that improved only the power attack.
1)1x3x3=5; 5+100%+100%=15
2)15x5=75

1:75, unless I did some bad adding or multiplying. Plese let me know if I did.

This would need some major alignment change and either great planning or epic level. But I'm really just looking for the numbers. 8 more levels of cavalier could get it to 1:90.

Yeah, I think you calculated stuff wrong. Reread the Leap Attack errata.

"you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat."

With a two-handed weapon, your normal bonus damge is x2. So as I read it, Leap Attack would make it a x3 (by D&D math).

Now add Frenzied Berserker to that - again, +100% of the normal bonus, so we end up with a x4.

Adding in your other modifiers (lance, etc), I'm getting a total of x14. Not shabby, but far from x75.

Arbitrarity
2007-01-15, 05:33 PM
He's saying one multiplies PA damage, the other multiplies total damage, so (y+PAx5(or w/e))x5

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-15, 05:39 PM
In D&D a doubling of a doubling is always a tripling.

Always. It's how D&D works.

When you double something in D&D, you're not actually doing any multiplication; you're doing addition. So when you double it again you just add the same as you added before, so even though you 'doubled' it twice, you've only multiplied it by three.

Aximili
2007-01-15, 05:53 PM
Yeah, I think you calculated stuff wrong. Reread the Leap Attack errata.

"you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat."

With a two-handed weapon, your normal bonus damge is x2. So as I read it, Leap Attack would make it a x3 (by D&D math).

Now add Frenzied Berserker to that - again, +100% of the normal bonus, so we end up with a x4.



In D&D a doubling of a doubling is always a tripling.

Always. It's how D&D works.

When you double something in D&D, you're not actually doing any multiplication; you're doing addition. So when you double it again you just add the same as you added before, so even though you 'doubled' it twice, you've only multiplied it by three.
I am aware of that. But the way that the errata is written does not state any multiplication. In fact, it specifically adds 100% of your normal power attack damage. Someone might argue it's the same thing, but we're talking about a system in which two doublings is not the same as a quadrupling. And I really don't think they would have made the errata if it were the same thing.

When you used FPA and CB you normal bonus damage from power attack is 5. Since both LA and FB add 100% of your normal bonus damage, you get 15.

And I forgot to use the valorous special ability and the headlong rush feat. Which would increase the multiplier twice, only you would need some kind of tauric orc/horse to meet the headlong's requirements.

Zherog
2007-01-15, 06:04 PM
Your "normal" Power Attack numbers when wielding a lance 2-handed is 1:2. That is what gets multiplied in each instance - not the final value after everything else.

Yakk
2007-01-15, 06:18 PM
So, in theory, here is how it "should" work.

Two handed weapon lets you do penalty x2 in damage; x2
Favored Power Attack (FPA) allows you to deal penalty*3 in damage; x3
Combat Brute (CB) allows you to deal penalty*3 in damage; x4
Frenzied Beserker (FB) increases the total bonus damage by 100%;(errata) x5
Leap Attack (LA) increases the total bonus damage by 100%;(errata) x6

To improve the total damage we've got:
Charging With lance; x8
Charging feat, x9;
Cavalier class feature (lvl 2), x10;
With the Battle jump, x11.

Or a total of x11 to one's damage.

Aximili
2007-01-15, 06:32 PM
No, I insist, the bonus from charging is applied separate. Your damage in the round would be:
(power attack damage+other damage)*5
You add them both and then multiply. There is no way that the power attack wouldn't be multiplied by 5. The damage from power attack, STR, and weapon dice are already added up here, they are multiplied as one. Consequently, the Power attack is multiplied by 5. What you've got is an ability to add X points of damage per -1 modifier that you apply to attack, and that damage is later multiplied by 5.

So, even if the power attack adds up the way you said, you end up with 1:30.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-15, 06:38 PM
A little off topic, but this just screams dragoons from Final Fantasy... Leap attacking into the fray and doing lots of damage with a lance.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-15, 07:01 PM
Everyone knows Kain was a munchkin'er. He just wasn't as good at it as Cecil.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-15, 11:23 PM
Just a note. It's debatable what "normal bonus from Power Attack" means. For a Frenzied Berserker 10 zweihanding, "normal bonus from Power Attack" is BAB Penalty taken*4. So a Leap Attack from a Frenzied Berserker is 4*2=*8. If memory serves, Combat Brute's Momentum Swing changes the ratio to *3(vs *2), so it would be 2*(*4+*3)=*12. Multiplying this on a critical(because it's not "dice damage"), we get 4*12=48:1 ratio on your BAB penalty. This becomes 1120 damage to -20 AC with Shock Trooper.

If you go with the Dragondoom feat(I could be wrong) from Draconomicon, you get 7*12=84:1 ratio on a critical. Not too far from that magical third digit.

oriong
2007-01-15, 11:34 PM
No, the normal bonus from power attack is always the original 1:1 amount you sacrificed, because that's the bonus that you normally recieve.

Things like the frenzied berserker and other things say +100% in an effort to be more clear (in the erratta). When you have two things that grant +100% you have something that grants +200%, but it is all from the original value that you recieve when making your sacrifice of BAB.

Also I really don't know that criticals deserve consideration in this excercise. They certainly grant increased damage but it doesn't seem the sort of thing the OP was talking about.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-15, 11:52 PM
No, the normal bonus from power attack is always the original 1:1 amount you sacrificed, because that's the bonus that you normally recieve.

Even in core 1:1 is not the only "normal bonus" from Power Attack. There's also 2:1 for 2 handed weapons, for a simple example. Again it comes down to what the GM interpretes as "normal". I have not seen the errata on the Frenzied Berserker. Perhaps you could point me towards the file?

Edit: Nevermind, found it. That squelches a lot of damage multiplication.

JaronK
2007-01-16, 02:20 AM
Leap Attack has been gone over may times, and it doubles... it doesn't add. This was FAQed and looked over.

2:1 Power Attack returns from two handed weapons is not considered a doubling... that's the base amount. Thus, if you leap attack, you get 4:1. Frenzied Berserker gets you 6:1 returns.

JaronK

Seffbasilisk
2007-01-16, 03:12 AM
Ok, I'm putting together what's been said here, and I'll post it when it's over. Though it won't even get close to 1:300.

Where's the valorous weapon enhancement?

Aximili-Esgarrouth-Isthil?

Unapproachable East (3.5), p. 54
Valorous: Deals double damage on a charge.

Telonius
2007-01-16, 10:35 AM
Armbands of Might can bump it up by +2.

Aximili
2007-01-16, 02:39 PM
Aximili-Esgarrouth-Isthil?
Indeed. After quite some time, posting in two different forums, that's the first time someone's asked me this.

Anyway, if we consider that LA and FB really double, than here it is:
1:2 x1,5(CB) x1,5(FPA) x2(FB) x2(LA) = 1:8