V really should have this in the bag [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

tigerhawkvok

2013-12-07, 03:30 PM

V has initiative -- Laurin and Tarquin are overconfident, and Laurin used her turn to simply dismiss V's hand.

Laurin is a spellcaster who has taken damage. She's all-but-guaranteed to have under 100 HP, and it's all but impossible for her to have 151+.

:vaarsuvius: turn 1: Power Word Stun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordStun.htm) -- stun no less than 1 round, most likely 2d4 rounds (~5 rounds)
Laurin turn 1-2d4: ...
:vaarsuvius: turn 2-(2d4-1): Disintegrate. Even if Laurin saves every single time (spellcaster won't save that fort save every time), that's looking at a most probable minimum ~25d6 damage = 87 damage over her likely stun time, and easily (likely!) quite a bit more (more like 30d6ish per round)

V should finally be able to demonstrate her newfound appreciation for smart, more tactically optimized, combat. (Not to mention L has been hemorrhaging PP)

shockeroo

2013-12-07, 03:32 PM

Has anybody worked out exactly what V has left for spells?

orrion

2013-12-07, 03:41 PM

tigerhawkvok

2013-12-07, 03:45 PM

What part of "OOTS is not optimized" do you not understand?

I could be wrong, of course, but my instinct for this story is to throw out the most obvious and/or optimized way for a battle to take place on principle.

We know V has Power Word Stun, and keeps it prepared -- she's used it before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html), in a case where there was no real reason to prepare it other than as a standard assortment.

And even a slight amount of optimization would be completely in line with V's character development after her fight vs. :xykon:.

Kish

2013-12-07, 03:46 PM

V should finally be able to demonstrate her newfound appreciation for smart, more tactically optimized, combat.
Vaarsuvius has no such newfound appreciation. In one strip, s/he said s/he wanted to play more of a supportive role rather than dominating the battlefield--which a remarkable number of people parsed as, "Vaarsuvius is finally going to quit blasphemously being a blaster wizard and start acting like a proper Batman!" It didn't last the strip, and since rejoining the party this most recent time, Vaarsuvius has fought, as s/he always has--as a blaster wizard.

bguy

2013-12-07, 04:02 PM

We know V has Power Word Stun, and keeps it prepared -- she's used it before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html), in a case where there was no real reason to prepare it other than as a standard assortment.

I was making the same argument earlier in the battle. However, the fact that V didn't break out PWS in strip 927 (where stunning Laurin would have saved Roy) or in strip 928 (where stunning either Laurin or Miron probably would have won the battle for the Order) makes me thing she doesn't have it prepped today. (She likely changed her spell layout before heading out into the desert, given that she would have been expecting to fight Xykon who PWS would not work against, rather than Team Tarquin.)

kgato503

2013-12-07, 04:06 PM

Although I think V will win, I do not think it will be so easy. To me, Laurin does not look that damaged (no visible red lines/marks), and although she has been using a lot of PP, we do not know how many she has total, or what items she has at her disposal. At the very least, V will be hurt in this exchange.

Also, we need to remember Tarquin is still there, armed, and out to destroy Elan's team. He could complicate things by also attacking V, providing flanking for Laurin, going after Haley and/or Elan, or doing all of the above. Hopefully, Blackwing will be able to manage this via distraction methods, or getting help, but it may still be a bit of a problem.

So, overall, I think that we can expect 2 or three updates worth of comic dealing with the casterfight, at least. Which, I might add, I am looking forward to :smallbiggrin:.

orrion

2013-12-07, 04:06 PM

We know V has Power Word Stun, and keeps it prepared -- she's used it before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html), in a case where there was no real reason to prepare it other than as a standard assortment.

And even a slight amount of optimization would be completely in line with V's character development after her fight vs. :xykon:.

Maybe PW:S was the only 8th level spell V had at the time. Wizards only get 1 spell slot at level 15. However, V then spent days in a place with a pretty large library. It's not outside the realm of possibility that V scribed more 8th level spells since, so there's no guarantee that it's prepared today.

Besides, boring. Also, how do you know V prepared that many Disintegrate spells? By your own argument it's unlikely that V prepared every 6th level spell as Disintegrate.

Vaarsuvius has no such newfound appreciation. In one strip, s/he said s/he wanted to play more of a supportive role rather than dominating the battlefield--which a remarkable number of people parsed as, "Vaarsuvius is finally going to quit blasphemously being a blaster wizard and start acting like a proper Batman!" It didn't last the strip, and since rejoining the party this most recent time, Vaarsuvius has fought, as s/he always has--as a blaster wizard.

Well, to be fair, I think a blaster wizard was the most effective way to handle a bazillion mooks, and at least V was strategically employing other spells (Prismatic Spray).

Kish

2013-12-07, 04:16 PM

Well, to be fair, I think a blaster wizard was the most effective way to handle a bazillion mooks, and at least V was strategically employing other spells (Prismatic Spray).
Prismatic Spray is not a blasting spell? Even if I agreed with that, which I don't, Vaarsuvius has (three times out of three, unless I'm forgetting one) used it as one. And Vaarsuvius had to choose her/his spells when s/he prepared them--not at the time of realizing, "Oh, we need to fight an army." S/he chose to prepare her/his usual, an array of mostly blasting spells.
Understand, I do not consider what I'm saying to be at all critical of Vaarsuvius. S/he is a blaster wizard. That's what s/he wants to be. There's nothing wrong with that.

Donald

2013-12-07, 05:08 PM

Also, it's a story so the combat will go the way Rich feels is best for the strip.

Bulldog Psion

2013-12-07, 05:13 PM

Also, it's a story so the combat will go the way Rich feels is best for the strip.

True, but that makes for pretty dull forum speculation.

"Well, my speculation about the fight is that it will go however Rich writes it."

"Yep, you've definitely nailed it. Thread over."

"Ayup."

shockeroo

2013-12-07, 05:17 PM

Vaarsuvius has no such newfound appreciation. In one strip, s/he said s/he wanted to play more of a supportive role rather than dominating the battlefield

Just because V still uses a lot of DD spells, which makes sense as has spent most of his career optimising for them, does not mean that he lacks a new appreciation of tactics and resource since his fight with Xykon. He sums it up well in #764, saying, "I am only learning now that careful management of resources is more effective than brute force."

For example:

- V went through a large-scale battle, still holding on to:
Prismatic Spray, Disintegrate, Lightning Bolt, Hold Monster, Two Bugsby's Hand Spells - plus he clearly has something left in the tank to fight Laurin. He could easily have burned the first three to little effect during the battle if he was just throwing power at everything. He memorised the latter three in preference to more mindless blasting.

- He gets three team-members off the battlefield by himself during their retreat.

- When dealing with Tarquin, instead of throwing a Disintegrate in his face, he instead uses a Bugby's hand spell to shove him out of the way - a much better use of magic.

Quartz

2013-12-07, 05:20 PM

Besides, boring. Also, how do you know V prepared that many Disintegrate spells? By your own argument it's unlikely that V prepared every 6th level spell as Disintegrate.

V could have used 7th level slots too.

Kish

2013-12-07, 05:23 PM

I do not believe either maintaining some of his spells during a large-scale battle with low-level mooks, or not using Disintegrate as his go-to spell against a probably-epic fighter, is a display of tactics that would have been above first-strip Vaarsuvius. (Elan commented on it, as being unusual, the one time Vaarsuvius did cast all her/his spells during a single rather tough battle, against the green ogre/troll creatures, if you recall. And Vaarsuvius responded by explaining why s/he wouldn't need any more spells that day, not by saying, "Bah, conserving spells is for conjurers!")

If you think those demonstrate a trend toward optimizing in a way Vaarsuvius didn't earlier--then we disagree. That's not to say that Vaarsuvius isn't growing at all, just that "optimize better" is not the nature of that growth.

sims796

2013-12-07, 05:24 PM

We also have Roy who'll be raring and ready for the fight shortly enough.

shockeroo

2013-12-07, 05:27 PM

If you think those demonstrate a trend toward optimizing in a way Vaarsuvius didn't earlier--then we disagree.

I disagree that there was ever a suggestion that V was going to optimise his character build differently. I always took his change to mean that he is going to be more tactical and resource-aware in how he applies his powers than before.

orrion

2013-12-07, 07:01 PM

I disagree that there was ever a suggestion that V was going to optimise his character build differently. I always took his change to mean that he is going to be more tactical and resource-aware in how he applies his powers than before.

That was my interpretation as well.

That's why I cited Prismatic Spray despite it being a blaster spell, Kish. I thought it was a smart tactical usage of the spell.

Ridureyu

2013-12-07, 07:16 PM

Gust of Wind on Tarquin, followed by Call Lightning when he grabs a rope or chain to hang on.

tigerhawkvok

2013-12-07, 07:20 PM

Besides, boring. Also, how do you know V prepared that many Disintegrate spells? By your own argument it's unlikely that V prepared every 6th level spell as Disintegrate.

I agree it's unlikely she has *that* many, but I'd be surprised if she doesn't have more than one (and we know she has *at least* one). It's long been one of her favorite spells, period. Just 2 failed fort saves is ~60d6 damage. And V has plenty of other spells. Just because she's being smarter doesn't mean she's not a blaster still, just a smarter, more tactical blaster.

Also, RE: PW:S, it's certainly not impossible it'd work on Xykon anyway. Liches get d12s but no CON bonus, so 6.5x(level) is going to be a good approximation of X's HP. On average, 23 HD will mean it'd still hit him (so, yes, unlikely not not impossible).

Besides that, it has an good chance of hitting Redcloak (@17*5.5 = 93.5, he'd need a CON of 18+ to boost him past 150 HP). I think it's totally reasonable for V to have it prepared.

orrion

2013-12-07, 07:38 PM

I agree it's unlikely she has *that* many, but I'd be surprised if she doesn't have more than one (and we know she has *at least* one). It's long been one of her favorite spells, period. Just 2 failed fort saves is ~60d6 damage. And V has plenty of other spells. Just because she's being smarter doesn't mean she's not a blaster still, just a smarter, more tactical blaster.

Had at least one, you mean? 'Cause V burned one against Miron.

I'd say it's reasonable if V had one more Disintegrate.

Shale

2013-12-07, 07:40 PM

I'm hoping V just hammers Tarquin with disabling spells, forcing Laurin to dispel over and over and over until she runs out of PP or fails a check and the Order/crew/both can finish him off.

Souhiro

2013-12-07, 07:47 PM

I think that the Mighty Maiming Tarquin Raiders won't be defeated, not by Human, nor Elf (Nor vampire, for that matter)

They will be defeated... by HIM.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-e3PZ8xen60c/UlXIgQXZEoI/AAAAAAAAAqs/V3UqSd7Z_iM/w448-h404-no/BELKAR.jpg

angry_bear

2013-12-07, 07:48 PM

We also have Roy who'll be raring and ready for the fight shortly enough.

Not to mention that Belkar is probably chugging a restoration potion, and Durkon is getting his spells back right now.

V doesn't have to beat Laurin at all, he just has to keep her occupied for several rounds.

ScrapperTBP

2013-12-07, 07:59 PM

Kish

2013-12-07, 08:02 PM

That was my interpretation as well.

That's why I cited Prismatic Spray despite it being a blaster spell, Kish. I thought it was a smart tactical usage of the spell.
But do you think that's something Vaarsuvius wouldn't have done since the beginning? If so, we have a disagreement; s/he's unwise, s/he's often terrible, even, but s/he's never been stupid.

It does occur to me that one thing Vaarsuvius could do, that pre-splice Vaarsuvius would not have done, is prioritize getting a message to Roy, Belkar, Durkon, and the NPCs below decks.

ScrapperTBP

2013-12-07, 08:28 PM

It does occur to me that one thing Vaarsuvius could do, that pre-splice Vaarsuvius would not have done, is prioritize getting a message to Roy, Belkar, Durkon, and the NPCs below decks.

Perhaps but if that was her priority Elan might have been out for the count and Haley might be dead if Laurin got her mental hands on her. Both Elan and Haley were down and alone against two epic level enemies when she noticed. Now she has dealt with the immediate threat she can send Blackwing to get Roy and the others while she occupies Laurin for a few turns.

[Edit] V now stresses making the best use of her abilities and by trying to cut the number of threats in half by pushing T off the ship I think she made a good first move.

Bovine Colonel

2013-12-07, 08:32 PM

Not to mention that Belkar is probably chugging a restoration potion, and Durkon is getting his spells back right now.

V doesn't have to beat Laurin at all, he just has to keep her occupied for several rounds.

Durkon needs a good 15 minutes to prepare a portion of his spells, or an hour to prepare the lot.

Of course, he could still show up right now and smash someone's face in.

orrion

2013-12-07, 08:41 PM

Not to mention that Belkar is probably chugging a restoration potion, and Durkon is getting his spells back right now.

V doesn't have to beat Laurin at all, he just has to keep her occupied for several rounds.

Durkon needs longer than that and potions are only for 3rd level spells, or below. Restoration is a 4th level spell.

Orm-Embar

2013-12-07, 08:50 PM

bguy

2013-12-07, 08:52 PM

Also, RE: PW:S, it's certainly not impossible it'd work on Xykon anyway. Liches get d12s but no CON bonus, so 6.5x(level) is going to be a good approximation of X's HP. On average, 23 HD will mean it'd still hit him (so, yes, unlikely not not impossible).

The Power Word spells are all mind affecting effects, so liches are immune to them.

Besides that, it has an good chance of hitting Redcloak (@17*5.5 = 93.5, he'd need a CON of 18+ to boost him past 150 HP). I think it's totally reasonable for V to have it prepared.

True, but I doubt V is giving Redcloak much thought. V has gone up against Xykon twice and in neither battle did Redcloak seem to do much of anything. (And in the second battle, he was driven from the fight by a single hit from O'Chul armed only with a metal bar.) V's going to want her highest level spells for what she perceives as the real threat not to waste them on the cowardly lackey who will probably flee as soon as Ms. Starshine hits him with an arrow.

Souhiro

2013-12-07, 09:01 PM

I'd like to see Roy at full hit points take Tarquin on equal footing. While the caster fight rages, of course.

But I don't believe this is going to be a walkover for V. Laurin is the only reason Tarquin is even still in this.

You know what? It could end in a nice way...

Laurie used here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/ksfo3jwpjwoifjbwopegs2e928.gif) a no-save power. It must be a no-save, since everybody got hit. Should it allow a FORT save, Roy should have endured, a REX save and Haley would have used evasion, and a WILL save and V would have been okay. But it set stunned everybody, save for Tarquin. He must have a Mind Shielding ring or something.

Then, only then... Haley (and her broken arm) could get near him, use Sleight of Hand, and take his ring. Combat solved.

Laurie would control Tarquin, and offer The Order a truce: She isn't precisely Tarquin's nº1 fan. She's just an associate.

Silva Stormrage

2013-12-07, 09:04 PM

Kish

2013-12-07, 09:08 PM

Also, Evasion doesn't apply to every "REX" save.

King of Nowhere

2013-12-07, 10:57 PM

While some people criticize the casters in oots for lacking some powers, I tend to be bothered by the opposite: that they always seem to have all the right spells for the day.
In my D&D career I tried to go batman wizard several times, but it never worked well. yes, when I spot the enemy I'm an all-powerful death machine. But after I cast the first spell, I already start running out of options. Many encounters only need you to repeatedly spam the best spell against that paricular foe. with batman wizard I don't have multiple copies of the same spell, or at least no more than 2. I quickly run out of that and need to use something less optimal. On the second encounter, I already am much weaker.
Also, being prepared means having plenty of spells "just in case". and if the "case" never happens, those are wasted spell slots. I end up being useless with still half my spells; because i prepared a protection from arrows and no one is using arrows, because i prepared a protection from magic and I faced no wizard, I prepared two fireballs but we're fighting single foes in melee, I prepared an extra stoneskin if the first gets roken/dispelled, whatever. That's why I always favored sorcerers: I still keep all my versatility with half my spells spent.
Yes, I'm sure someone more skilled than me can do better. but some of those are intrinsic limitations. you want to be prepared for everything, then many of your spell slots will end up being useless because that "everything" is not happening today.

What has that to do with V? V cast already many spells today. He's bound to have limited choices. He can't have many high level spells left and there's no guarantee that they are the right spells for this situation. maybe he prepared dispel magic and true sight because he was expecting to spend the day searching fo the pyramid? maybe he has mostly aoe balsting left?
Ok, V spent aoe against the army so he's bound to still have most of his single target spells ready. but still he can't have many, and he's already used a polymorph, a prismatic spray, a disintegrate, two or three hand spells.

Of course also laurin must be running pretty shortk, so they may be balanced. tarquin may end up being the most dangerous foe here; as a fighter, he don''t have to worry about exhausting spell slots.

Gnome Alone

2013-12-07, 11:10 PM

I regard the main threat as being that the vile "evil for the sake of my loved ones" Laurin seems to be as munchkin-y and broken as I've sometimes heard psions described as. As to whether they are generally such, elephino, but the L-trocity seems to be.

MesiDoomstalker

2013-12-07, 11:30 PM

You know what? It could end in a nice way...

Laurie used here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/ksfo3jwpjwoifjbwopegs2e928.gif) a no-save power. It must be a no-save, since everybody got hit. Should it allow a FORT save, Roy should have endured, a REX save and Haley would have used evasion, and a WILL save and V would have been okay. But it set stunned everybody, save for Tarquin. He must have a Mind Shielding ring or something.

Then, only then... Haley (and her broken arm) could get near him, use Sleight of Hand, and take his ring. Combat solved.

Laurie would control Tarquin, and offer The Order a truce: She isn't precisely Tarquin's nº1 fan. She's just an associate.

I'd like to disagree with you here. We see Elan* (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html)is the first one to recover from the effect. It is arguable to say that V and Belkar had recovered, though V did not show taking any actions and Belkar only able to move before being curbstomped. Elan, however, shows to have fully recovered, without the head swirly. That suggest to me he made his save, or he got REALLY lucky on his duration roll.

*Technically, Tarquin and Durkon are the first to recover, since they were completely unaffected. Durkon most likely due to his Undead typing and Tarquin probably due to an item granting Mind Blank or similar.

Haar

2013-12-08, 12:40 AM

I thought V always kept one invisibility spell handy as a getaway. Kind of worthless with Tarquin's ring, and maybe s/he isn't as predictable as I thought.

I think V will win but it will be difficult. Roy is away and unaware of danger, Durkon is meditating, Haley is out for the count and Elan can't go 1 on 1 with Tarquin. V has to deal with them both really.

What I will do is repeat what the forums have been saying for a while: Laurin has used a lot of PP.

(I am guessing what powers were used because I know nothing about psionics. Based on a quick SRD search also assuming she is a Telepath)

10x Wormhole (2ed I've seen people say)
1x Mind Probe on Nale
1x Energy Stun on Haley
1x Brain Lock on Roy
1x Body Adjustment on self
1x Psionic Blast on everyone
1x Dispel on Durkon (seemed like a special specific one for Malack based on her speech)
1x Telekinetic Force on the whip
1x Recall Death on Julio (really didn't know with this one)
1x Disintegrate on the hand

That is a lot of power points. 10 wormholes is no joke people.

Not sure if it makes any difference but there was a second disintegrate used on Nale's corpse.

SteveDJ

2013-12-08, 02:59 AM

Of course also laurin must be running pretty shortk, so they may be balanced. tarquin may end up being the most dangerous foe here; as a fighter, he don''t have to worry about exhausting spell slots.

Oh, now wouldn't that be funny -- here we are ready for a "caster fight", and watch as we find out they are both out of spells... :smallbiggrin:

mootoall

2013-12-08, 03:18 AM

Prismatic Spray is not a blasting spell? Even if I agreed with that, which I don't, Vaarsuvius has (three times out of three, unless I'm forgetting one) used it as one. And Vaarsuvius had to choose her/his spells when s/he prepared them--not at the time of realizing, "Oh, we need to fight an army." S/he chose to prepare her/his usual, an array of mostly blasting spells.
Understand, I do not consider what I'm saying to be at all critical of Vaarsuvius. S/he is a blaster wizard. That's what s/he wants to be. There's nothing wrong with that.

Prismatic Spray is very much not a blasting spell. It's mostly save or suck/lose.

Jade_Tarem

2013-12-08, 03:19 AM

Also, being prepared means having plenty of spells "just in case". and if the "case" never happens, those are wasted spell slots. I end up being useless with still half my spells; because i prepared a protection from arrows and no one is using arrows, because i prepared a protection from magic and I faced no wizard, I prepared two fireballs but we're fighting single foes in melee, I prepared an extra stoneskin if the first gets roken/dispelled, whatever. That's why I always favored sorcerers: I still keep all my versatility with half my spells spent.
Yes, I'm sure someone more skilled than me can do better. but some of those are intrinsic limitations. you want to be prepared for everything, then many of your spell slots will end up being useless because that "everything" is not happening today.

Point of order: past a certain level, being properly prepared as a wizard means not having spells that will go to waste if a particular condition is not met. Also, the contention of most srs-bsns wizard players is that after level X you should be devoting a couple of divinations or something each day to know what spells you'll need.

But yes, V is in trouble here. Laurin appears to have infinite power points and Tarquin has yet to take a lasting hit.

SlashDash

2013-12-08, 06:29 AM

Prismatic Spray is not a blasting spell? Even if I agreed with that, which I don't, Vaarsuvius has (three times out of three, unless I'm forgetting one) used it as one.
When one refers to blasting spells, they refer to direct damage.
In fact, V uses spray not for direct damage, remember she used it the first time to turn the demon into stone. That isn't a direct damage, that's a save or die situation.

Also, for the record, it is more than possible V didn't prepare power word stun since the order was expecting the possibility of fighting a certain undead lich that is immune to that sort of thing...

Kornaki

2013-12-08, 09:28 AM

The combination of V taking a more backseat approach and Blackwing's utter excitement demands that either they both run out of spells, or more likely to me V diss something to delay Laurin and Tarquin long enough for the rest of the Order and possibly Julio to rejoin the fight.

MesiDoomstalker

2013-12-08, 10:04 AM

When one refers to blasting spells, they refer to direct damage.
In fact, V uses spray not for direct damage, remember she used it the first time to turn the demon into stone. That isn't a direct damage, that's a save or die situation.

Also, for the record, it is more than possible V didn't prepare power word stun since the order was expecting the possibility of fighting a certain undead lich that is immune to that sort of thing...

I should note that V cannot control the effects of Prismatic Spray. Its a random effect based on the color. Notice in the last use, that each individual was hit by a broad ray of a single color. This is indicating the color that hit that individual. If I were V, I'd have preferred the "Make go away" option on Tarquin if I had a choice. Which I'm not and I wouldn't.

Spoomeister

2013-12-08, 12:49 PM

V could have this in the bag if they switch dance partners a bit. Which may even be foreshadowed by Blackwing egging her on for a caster fight, making it a dramatic twist when V goes out of her way to do the opposite instead.

Haley's sneak attack backstab may not have been enough to seriously affect Tarquin, but might be enough to take out Laurin. Or occupy her until a potioned-up Roy pops out from below decks and sees if that caster-slaying heirloom sword of his works just as well on psions.

And V taking on Laurin head-on might be messy and take half the ship with them, but she could blast Tarquin enough times at range until he fails a save or two. Or, she can try again to dump Tarquin over the side. His reaction at nearly getting thrown over the railing suggests that he doesn't have Feather Fall or a similar contingency, and Roy's storyline establishes that a high enough fall can kill even a high level fighter.

spambi

2013-12-08, 01:48 PM

V could have this in the bag if they switch dance partners a bit. Which may even be foreshadowed by Blackwing egging her on for a caster fight, making it a dramatic twist when V goes out of her way to do the opposite instead.

I was thinking the same thing. V's best move is to finish pushing Tarquin over the edge. Even if Laurin goes and gets him, Tarquin takes the fall damage and she has to use 2 more manifestations. And they no longer have the element of surprise. Of course, bad guys never grab onto the edge of a cliff just so they can get pushed off immediately after.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-08, 06:31 PM

Laurin appears to have infinite power points
People keep saying this and I have yet to understand why. At her absolute minimum stats of Int 16 and level 13, and assuming her pool is unboosted by feats or items, Laurin would have a pool of 166 power points. If wormhole is a level 9 power her absolute minimum stats change to Int 19 and level 18 (it'd be level 17, but she was level-drained and lost access to one of her highest-level powers) she would have a pool of 316 power points.

If wormhole is indeed level 9, and Scrapper's list or powers manifested is accurate aside from missing a disintegrate, then Laurin has spent at most...316 power points. Huh. Her minimum is, of course, much lower.

10x Wormhole (2ed I've seen people say): 170
1x Mind Probe on Nale: 9
1x Energy Stun on Haley: 18
1x Brain Lock on Roy: 3
1x Body Adjustment on self: 17 (spending 18 would be pointless)
1x Psionic Blast on everyone: 17 (spending 18 would be pointless)
1x Dispel on Durkon (seemed like a special specific one for Malack based on her speech): 10
1x Telekinetic Force on the whip: 18
1x Recall Death on Julio (really didn't know with this one): 18
2x Disintegrate on Nale and the hand: 36

Souhiro

2013-12-09, 04:23 AM

But yes, V is in trouble here. Laurin appears to have infinite power points and Tarquin has yet to take a lasting hit.

The "Laurie has infinite PPs" should be a meme, in these forums! It would be fun to see the camera zooming into Laurie's dress, and revealing that it's composed entirely of PearlsOfPower-like items that grant her extra PP.

But I keep thinking that while loyalty in the Order is beyond any shade of doubt (Including Belkar) The Mighty Maiming Tarquin Raiders aren't that dedicated, it's just more a compromise: Elan and Durkon heals the party because they're friends. Laurie heals the Raiders because they're their group.

And THAT is what will be Tarquin's fall: He forgots that you cannot force someone as being the protagonist, and that a good group is more than the sum of its components.

---

PS: Sorry for my awful english. Non Native English speaker :p
Also, I wrote the "REX" save typo from my cellphone... sorry!

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-09, 04:30 AM

But I keep thinking that while loyalty in the Order is beyond any shade of doubt (Including Belkar) The Mighty Maiming Tarquin Raiders aren't that dedicated, it's just more a compromise: Elan and Durkon heals the party because they're friends. Laurie heals the Raiders because they're their group.
Hmm? So far, Laurin hasn't healed anybody but herself. Not that she's needed to, what with Miron's contingency keeping him alive and Tarquin's ring going beyond troll-like and swooping into Tarrasque-like levels of regeneration.

Souhiro

2013-12-09, 04:35 AM

Hmm? So far, Laurin hasn't healed anybody but herself. Not that she's needed to, what with Miron's contingency keeping him alive and Tarquin's ring going beyond troll-like and swooping into Tarrasque-like levels of regeneration.

Tarquin has a ring of regeneration? He has a ring of True vision, one of Regeneration... an ring of Mind Blank... how many hands does he have?

Domino Quartz

2013-12-09, 04:43 AM

Tarquin has a ring of regeneration? He has a ring of True vision, one of Regeneration... an ring of Mind Blank... how many hands does he have?

He has six fingers (total), like any other OotS-verse human.

Trillium

2013-12-09, 04:58 AM

Dracon1us

2013-12-09, 05:07 AM

I can imagine Laurin and V wasting all of their PP/spell-slots on counterspelling and then going into a girly catfight, screaming and ripping each other's hair out. Would be a mighty fun. :smallbiggrin:

Hilarious!

anyway, if I'm V, I'd immediately go with a disintegrate to the head.
Laurin must be taken out asap, and deal actual damage to her is crucial, so even a julioteer can kill her

Souhiro

2013-12-09, 05:25 AM

What about both of them expending all and every of their spell and points (even tricks!)

Then, Mr Scruffy enters and puts and end the fight using with "La Magnifica Lonchadora!" (The Magnificent Slicer)

http://www.nock-gmbh.com/es/img/produkte/rundmesser-schneidemaschinen/detail-schweinlachs-gesch-g.jpg

Kish

2013-12-09, 06:44 AM

Tarquin has a ring of regeneration? He has a ring of True vision, one of Regeneration... an ring of Mind Blank... how many hands does he have?
"Tarquin has a ring of Mind Blank" was someone on this board. There is no indication of that in the comic*.

*Before someone says something about his ignoring Laurin's power that blasted everyone: That is an indication of something, sure. Could be that Tarquin has some item that blocked it. Could be that Laurin chose who it affected. But it's certainly not an indication of a ring of Mind Blank, specifically.

Souhiro

2013-12-09, 07:33 AM

Trillium

2013-12-09, 07:36 AM

Nimin

2013-12-09, 07:38 AM

He has six fingers (total), like any other OotS-verse human.

In D&D you can wear only one magical ring per hand, so unless he's Goro in disguise 2 is the maximum number he should normally wear at the same time.

Trillium

2013-12-09, 07:44 AM

BTW, can't one wear magic rings on your toes? I mean, some oriental cultures wear rings there, so why not?

PS: IIRC , in Epic Handbook for 3.5, there was a feat which allowed wearing additional magic items, above common limits. If Tarquin is low-epic, he may have that exact feat.

Kish

2013-12-09, 07:46 AM

Come on! if something has four legs, tail, a snout and barks, then it's a dog.

We saw clearly that Tarquin (And Durkon) were targeted by Laurie "Everybody's stunned or something" power but they were undeterred, their faces didn't show any effort. It's almost written that Tarquin currently wears a ring (or maybe a DOZEN, being Tarquin) of mind blank
This is a ridiculous claim. I'm sorry, but it just is. Saying "Come on!" does not take the place of providing any actual evidence that the particular explanation for a scene is the one you've arbitrarily decided to champion. Your claim is exactly as good, which is to say exactly as bad, as if you were saying it was "almost written" that Laurin's power only affected people she wanted it to target or that Tarquin had Moment of Perfect Mind or that he had a belt that made him immune to all magical/psionic effects below eighth level, except that then you wouldn't also be able to treat one of the pieces of evidence against Tarquin having a Ring of Mind Blank as though it was a story inconsistency.

Tarquin has mentioned having a Ring of True Seeing and a Ring of Regeneration. Those are the rings there is positive evidence that he has. He may have switched one of them out for a different ring or he may have the epic feat that lets him wear three rings at once. The preceding sentence is pure speculation, and nothing in it should be treated as more than speculation.

Storm_Of_Snow

2013-12-09, 08:30 AM

I think V will win but it will be difficult. Roy is away and unaware of danger, Durkon is meditating, Haley is out for the count and Elan can't go 1 on 1 with Tarquin. V has to deal with them both really.

What I will do is repeat what the forums have been saying for a while: Laurin has used a lot of PP.

(I am guessing what powers were used because I know nothing about psionics. Based on a quick SRD search also assuming she is a Telepath)

10x Wormhole (2ed I've seen people say)
1x Mind Probe on Nale
1x Energy Stun on Haley
1x Brain Lock on Roy
1x Body Adjustment on self
1x Psionic Blast on everyone
1x Dispel on Durkon (seemed like a special specific one for Malack based on her speech)
1x Telekinetic Force on the whip
1x Recall Death on Julio (really didn't know with this one)
1x Disintegrate on the hand

That is a lot of power points. 10 wormholes is no joke people.
+1 Disintegrate on Nale's corpse (ok, other people have beat me to it on that one :smallsmile: ), and the two Dimension Doors, one away from Durkon's grasp, one back to Tarquin to blast Julio (7 each, with +6 each if she used them for move actions). Plus anything she might have used prior to the first wormhole (maybe one more wormhole to bring herself and Miron to Bleedingham to pick up Kilkil and the dramatic revelation corps).

And I'd assume she'd keep enough for a Wormhole or Teleport (assuming she can manifest it) home as an emergency reserve. So she's maybe got 50-60 points left to fight with.

If Durkon were still on the deck (and considering they've only just gone below, Roy, Durkon and Belkar could be back the moment they hear the fighting) and the Order had got to the point where they wanted Laurin dead rather than just being absent from her surroundings, I'd suggest Power Word: Stun into Dimensional Anchor into Durkon hanging off her throat.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-09, 09:00 AM

BTW, can't one wear magic rings on your toes? I mean, some oriental cultures wear rings there, so why not?
In D&D, the toes are part of the Feet item slot, while rings must be worn on the Hands. Tarquin could, however, have a custom slotless item that grants mind blank, or be wearing a hand of glory around his neck, with a ring of mind blank on it. Or he could just have through-the-roof saves.

Snails

2013-12-09, 11:41 AM

The "Laurie has infinite PPs" should be a meme, in these forums!

Unlike Wizards, very Psion appears to have infinite Power Points, up until the moment they have none.

If that becomes a factor, we get to see how well Laurin planned her backup psionic items. Casters worn down to wands/dorjes is not something we have ever seen in the OotS.

orrion

2013-12-09, 12:21 PM

But yes, V is in trouble here. Laurin appears to have infinite power points and Tarquin has yet to take a lasting hit.

Eh, the Sneak Attack wound is still here.

What Laurin has done is perfectly reasonable for a high level Psion. That is their strength - not a ton of variety, but they can do whatever they chose to do until they can't do anything at all.

Dracon1us

2013-12-09, 02:01 PM

ehi we all know what spell V is gonna cast first: Evan's spiked tentacles of forced intrusion!!! on Tarquie

Kornaki

2013-12-09, 02:07 PM

ehi we all know what spell V is gonna cast first: Evan's spiked tentacles of forced intrusion!!! on Tarquie

They're close enough to each other for Laurin and Tarqin to both get hit by it.

Also for all the blah blah blah here are their spells/power points remaining, here are their levels etc. this fight is a coin flip. Either one could use a single disintegrate and get lucky and win the fight immediately. Analysis is pointless.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-09, 02:21 PM

Either one could use a single disintegrate and get lucky and win the fight immediately.
Erm, this is practically the one thing that is guaranteed to not happen.

Lord Torath

2013-12-09, 02:44 PM

While some people criticize the casters in oots for lacking some powers, I tend to be bothered by the opposite: that they always seem to have all the right spells for the day.
In my D&D career I tried to go batman wizard several times, but it never worked well. yes, when I spot the enemy I'm an all-powerful death machine. But after I cast the first spell, I already start running out of options. Many encounters only need you to repeatedly spam the best spell against that paricular foe. with batman wizard I don't have multiple copies of the same spell, or at least no more than 2. I quickly run out of that and need to use something less optimal. On the second encounter, I already am much weaker.

Also, being prepared means having plenty of spells "just in case". and if the "case" never happens, those are wasted spell slots. I end up being useless with still half my spells; because i prepared a protection from arrows and no one is using arrows, because i prepared a protection from magic and I faced no wizard, I prepared two fireballs but we're fighting single foes in melee, I prepared an extra stoneskin if the first gets broken/dispelled, whatever. That's why I always favored sorcerers: I still keep all my versatility with half my spells spent.
Yes, I'm sure someone more skilled than me can do better. but some of those are intrinsic limitations. you want to be prepared for everything, then many of your spell slots will end up being useless because that "everything" is not happening today.Rich went into this quite a bit in the commentary in one of the Books (I think it was No Cure for the Paladin Blues, when V got turned into a Small Purple Lizard). The Vancian spellcasting system worked great for Jack Vance (and other authors) as they control the narrative and provide opportunities for any or all of the wizard's memorized spells. As an RPG system, it's... less than optimal. So no, I'm not sure someone "more skilled than you" can really do better, unless they use the 8th level Clerical Spell (this was back when clerics only got 7th level spells) Peek in the Module while the DM's in the Bathroom (the natural progression for the 2nd level spell Idea and the 4th level spell Genius).

Composer99

2013-12-09, 03:32 PM

Kish's analysis with respect to Tarquin's rings is entirely correct.

We have positive evidence of two magic rings known to be in his possession.

While there are ways he can get around the rules limit of using 2 magic rings at a time, there is no positive, confirmatory evidence that Tarquin is using any of them.

At present we have no way of knowing if he swapped out one of his rings for a ring of mind blank, has gotten around the limit by item or feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#additionalMagicItemSpace), or what have you.

(Not to say that the speculation isn't fun, which is probably the point of undertaking it.)

----------

With respect to the possible V-Laurin fight, in addition to disintegrate, V has (IMO) some other good options:

1. Telekinesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm)
If V wants to knock Tarquin off rather than hit Laurin, a good choice would be telekinesis to hurl Tarquin over the edge (he gets a Will save to resist) - or bull rush him over, since there is no save but rather an opposed Intelligence (for V) vs. Strength (for Tarquin) check for which Tarquin might be at a disadvantage in his current state.

He could even use the "hurl" option on more than one target as long as he doesn't go over 375 pounds, so he might be able to hurl Laurin over, too, although that's much less likely given her higher Will save.

2. Baleful polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) on Laurin.

3. Flesh to stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm) on Laurin.

4. Perhaps even reverse gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm)? This one might not be such a good pick since Tarquin & Laurin could probably just grab onto the Mechane's air bladder and as far as I can see it does not keep Laurin from acting.

Of course what will actually happen is beyond my ability to guess, although I suspect Vaarsuvius will cast different spells, on account of us having already seen petrification and baleful polymorph effects in-comic and, per zimmerwald's comment, it could allow (at The Giant's discretion) the battle to rage on for additional drama.

Edit: Also, (casterfight!)

Scow2

2013-12-09, 03:41 PM

2. Baleful polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) on Laurin.
VENGEANCE FOR BLOODFEAST!

Zubrowka74

2013-12-09, 04:28 PM

Speaking of PP, Psions can heal but can they restore drained levels ? Durkula did lower her levels by two.

Shale

2013-12-09, 04:29 PM

Psionic Restoration exists and functions like the divine version. As always, we don't know if Laurin would choose to actually learn the power, given that she had a cleric in the team.

dancrilis

2013-12-09, 05:06 PM

Well I imagine that in a game with a character that powergames the Psion's default option is use magic device.

So if this happened V is doomed.
1. Teleport away from Durkon.
2. Use Magic Device on a scroll to generate an anti-magic field.
3. Return to Tarquin.
4. Access ship.

Laurin did say she wanted to get her buffs sorted before the battle.

I deem this a low probability outcome of course.

MtlGuy

2013-12-09, 06:19 PM

Maybe this calls for another casting of 'Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion'.

Rogar Demonblud

2013-12-09, 07:50 PM

In re Tarquin's magic item loadout, remember that some effects can be placed somewhere other than a ring. His helmet could have the mind shielding effect built in, or it could be a Helm of True Seeing.

Zubrowka74

2013-12-09, 08:30 PM

Maybe this calls for another casting of 'Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion'.

PW:S on lauren then this.

Most likely you'll have Roy and Belkar back healed, perhaps not to 100 % but still. Plus Durkula, even without spell he can still level-drain, wich is not to scoff at.

I call that Julio will climb back at the most opportune moment to foil Tarkin!

malloyd

2013-12-09, 08:42 PM

Maybe this calls for another casting of 'Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion'.

Well it's low enough level V has plenty of slots left it could be in, and it'd be a fun callback to see it again sometime. But on the downside a low level spell is probably not going to be very effective, and using it on a female humanoid target is sure to touch off a flamewar among the fanbase. So probably not.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-09, 11:00 PM

Storm_Of_Snow

2013-12-10, 04:23 AM

Definitely a ring for True Seeing, and when Tarquin got hit by the psi-blast that flattened the order, he wasn't wearing his helmet, so Mind Blank can't be on that either.

Could regeneration be on his armour though? Tarquin does say that the glamer is one of his armour's enchantments.

137beth

2013-12-10, 04:37 AM

In D&D you can wear only one magical ring per hand, so unless he's Goro in disguise 2 is the maximum number he should normally wear at the same time.

Well, you can wear more than one per hand...they just won't have any effect.

Nimin

2013-12-10, 08:07 AM

This. Plus, I'm pretty sure the Giant is on record as not wanting to make a joke of *ahem* gross sexual imposition.
But that's okay if it's a male getting it?
Bleh.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-10, 08:17 AM

But that's okay if it's a male getting it?
Bleh.
Fascinating, isn't it, the marvelous alchemy that transforms "the Giant doesn't want to make light of a painful issue" into "some people's pain is more worthy than others"?

Nimin

2013-12-10, 08:24 AM

I agree, seeing how he already did that once with the male manticore.

Quartz

2013-12-10, 08:29 AM

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-10, 08:34 AM

I agree, seeing how he already did that once with the male manticore.
Yes, this was a thing that happened. I'm saying that it's not going to be repeated, and heck, I'd go far as to speculate that the Giant probably regrets ever writing the scene that way in the first place. I suspect that the only reason the scene as written made it to print in the first place was that message in those days took a back seat to comedy, and because the audience was small enough that it wouldn't matter much what message the strip conveyed. Nowadays the audience is larger and more varied, and the Giant has long since established that he's interested in making a point with his tale.

Trillium

2013-12-10, 08:43 AM

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.png "Evan's Spiked Tentacles!"
:elan: "Minor Image!"
:haley: "Elan, honey, why the hell did you caused my clothes to look like... schoolgirl's?"
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png "Good job, son! THAT's how things are done!"
:elan: "Besides, didn't you say that some flaunting was in order?"

Souhiro

2013-12-10, 09:00 AM

2. Baleful polymorph on Laurin.VENGEANCE FOR BLOODFEAST!I agree with this!
Vengeance for the Extreme-Inator! (Altough it was Miron who did the deed)

I was thinking about this...
IRRC Baleful Polymorph transform the victim in a harmless critter. And some high attitude, wiser-than-thou elves see humans as little more than animals. Could a Elven Sorc or Wizard Baleful Polymorph a Tyranosaurus into a human baby (And failling his Will save) then raise him, teach him everything, and when he's mature enough, give him a magic item that can undo the transformation, for a time.

You have a Tyranosaurus that could understand you, that can be 100% loyal to you, and he can unmorph and help you in your daily duties as a friend.

Trillium

2013-12-10, 09:07 AM

I was thinking about this...
IRRC Baleful Polymorph transform the victim in a harmless critter. And some high attitude, wiser-than-thou elves see humans as little more than animals. Could a Elven Sorc or Wizard Baleful Polymorph a Tyranosaurus into a human baby (And failling his Will save) then raise him, teach him everything, and when he's mature enough, give him a magic item that can undo the transformation, for a time.

You have a Tyranosaurus that could understand you, that can be 100% loyal to you, and he can unmorph and help you in your daily duties as a friend.

:eek: That... is... genius... OMG...

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-10, 09:18 AM

Could a Elven Sorc or Wizard Baleful Polymorph a Tyranosaurus into a human baby
"Animal" isn't just a descriptive term. It is a creature type. Human babies have the humanoid type - or, if you follow the Giant's method of statting babies, they have no type.

Kish

2013-12-10, 09:26 AM

I think Baleful Polymorph would treat human babies as "immature Medium-sized creatures," despite their currently falling within the size range for Small-sized creatures.

Clove

2013-12-10, 09:55 AM

Rich went into this quite a bit in the commentary in one of the Books (I think it was No Cure for the Paladin Blues, when V got turned into a Small Purple Lizard). The Vancian spellcasting system worked great for Jack Vance (and other authors) as they control the narrative and provide opportunities for any or all of the wizard's memorized spells. As an RPG system, it's... less than optimal. So no, I'm not sure someone "more skilled than you" can really do better, unless they use the 8th level Clerical Spell (this was back when clerics only got 7th level spells) Peek in the Module while the DM's in the Bathroom (the natural progression for the 2nd level spell Idea and the 4th level spell Genius).

One basic thing a wizard does is have scrolls with spells that are sometimes essential, but often not needed: Invisibility, Knock, Tongues. Wands are superior, but a few scrolls are far cheaper and a better option for keeping things on hand you might never use.

Often the caster level of these utility spells is largely unimportant, so casting from an item is fine. Attack spells usually are better casted from daily allowance rather than from an item. And you typically like having more than one of each. So load up on them. :)

Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are a bit of a conundrum. Caster level is important, so you want to memorize them. But also, they are sometimes not useful. I end up forgoing memorizing this spell because even memorized you can still fail an opposed casting roll. Especially against a big bad guy, who is typically higher level than the party.

DeliaP

2013-12-10, 11:02 AM

Well it's low enough level V has plenty of slots left it could be in, and it'd be a fun callback to see it again sometime. But on the downside a low level spell is probably not going to be very effective, and using it on a female humanoid target is sure to touch off a flamewar among the fanbase. So probably not.

Heh, even talking about whether or not the Giant might use it seems to be getting people provoked.

But the issue is not whether it's a female or humanoid (or both) target. It was a one off joke back from the days of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. One of many things that the Giant portrayed back then, that almost certainly wouldn't be portrayed if the Giant was writing DCF now.

orrion

2013-12-10, 11:30 AM

The tentacle spell was a one-off joke/parody.

I'm reminded of the Giant's recent "wow, you things you guys will find to argue about" comment.

Kaerou

2013-12-10, 12:50 PM

Every psion I have ever played has had a terrible reflex save, V probably has the advantage in that regard.

OPM

2013-12-10, 01:45 PM

The tentacle spell was a one-off joke/parody.

I'm reminded of the Giant's recent "wow, you things you guys will find to argue about" comment.

It's based on a real spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm). They face a grapple check of caster level + 8 for 1 round/level and take damage until they win the check or the spell ends. The tentacles themselves cannot be damaged.

Dunno if V will use it, but it would be interesting.

Scow2

2013-12-10, 01:53 PM

orrion

2013-12-10, 01:58 PM

It's based on a real spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm). They face a grapple check of caster level + 8 for 1 round/level and take damage until they win the check or the spell ends. The tentacles themselves cannot be damaged.

Dunno if V will use it, but it would be interesting.

Of course it's based on a real spell. That's partly why it's a freaking parody.

Doesn't change what I said.

Metahuman1

2013-12-10, 02:00 PM

I dunno, on the one hand, I would LOVE to see Laurin and T just get gob-smacked out of existence right here and now by a lone T-1 caster breaking the story simply cause he doesn't care about the story, that would be awesome.

On the other hand, I think Laurin's build is using some combo of one of the assorted Power Point Recharge Tricks and One of the assorted action Economy abuse Tricks to make sure she can secretly recharge her power points to full for the start of her turn every turn so that she can Nove as much as she pleases and not worry about it. It's the sorta obnoxious thing a member of T's party would do.

Kish

2013-12-10, 02:03 PM

On the other hand, I think Laurin's build is using some combo of one of the assorted Power Point Recharge Tricks and One of the assorted action Economy abuse Tricks to make sure she can secretly recharge her power points to full for the start of her turn every turn so that she can Nove as much as she pleases and not worry about it. It's the sorta obnoxious thing a member of T's party would do.
It might be, but there's no evidence she is because, contrary to annoyingly persistent rumor, there is no way a level 18+ psion who's done only the things we've seen her do would be out of power points yet.

Snails

2013-12-10, 02:12 PM

As a one-off joke, it was plenty successful. As part of a (often) more serious ongoing campaign/story, it does not add anything.

If we want to see Laurin owned in an embarrassing fashion, she could die from Quickened Magic Missile + Disintegrate. (Then Gust of Wind if we really want to rub it in.)

Nimin

2013-12-10, 02:15 PM

And society has changed
Just no.

and Burlew has matured a lot more since those days as well. I think he's on record saying that he regrets that joke now... as well as regret over Haley's incessant slut-shaming once he was called out on it and explained how damaging the 'jokes' are.

"Damaging" in what sense? :smallconfused:

Metahuman1

2013-12-10, 02:17 PM

It might be, but there's no evidence she is because, contrary to annoyingly persistent rumor, there is no way a level 18+ psion who's done only the things we've seen her do would be out of power points yet.

And she might not be, but this thing of I don't have to worry about my PP is kinda annoying if she does have a hard cap on her daily PP allotment.

On the other hand, why not nova and throw them around alike candy if you can fully recharge no matter what at the start of the next turn?

And again, it would be the sorta thing a member of T's party would do.

Bovine Colonel

2013-12-10, 02:25 PM

"Damaging" in what sense? :smallconfused:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16450188#post16450188

orrion

2013-12-10, 02:33 PM

And she might not be, but this thing of I don't have to worry about my PP is kinda annoying if she does have a hard cap on her daily PP allotment.

On the other hand, why not nova and throw them around alike candy if you can fully recharge no matter what at the start of the next turn?

And again, it would be the sorta thing a member of T's party would do.

How do you even know she has one of the abilities that going nova entails?

Perhaps she does worry about her PP but Wormhole has still been the best use of her abilities every time she's used it?

Or perhaps she doesn't worry about her PP because if she were like 20th level she may have used only half of them?

Lamech

2013-12-10, 02:58 PM

Laurin is probably:
a) Epic Level
b) Has a full array of int and con boosts
c) completely topped off on everything that can be recovered after she got forced out temporarily.
d) may be using power point recovery tricks

She may be above 150 HP, and I would be surprised if she wasn't over 100. So to answer the OP, Power Word stun would be a waste (action+spell for action), or worse. She probably has a goodly amount of PP left as well.

Just as in the fight between Tarquin and Roy Laurin almost certainly has the upper hand. However one well placed off-hand sneak attack can really turn things around.

P.S. Tarquin probably has inane saves, and for that matter should be mind blanked. Malack can and should cast it on both of them each and every day.

Math_Mage

2013-12-10, 03:01 PM

"Damaging" in what sense? :smallconfused:
The idea is that this particular trait of Haley's wasn't portrayed as a wart, but rather as 'just another trait of a heroic character', which isn't the best message to send. It's not a major thing, but it did come up. (I also think 'incessant' is the wrong word to use; 'occasional' is more accurate.)

Nimin

2013-12-10, 03:07 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16450188#post16450188

Holy hell, that was painful to read. :smalleek:
I can't believe some people would feel offended by catfights slut shaming, which is something that not only happens but is actually natural during fights, regardless of sex.
Truly "political correctness" is the most harmful trait of our society.

You've nothing to be ashamed of or to apologize for. Saying the leads can't do something because it 'sends a bad message to young women' sounds very silly to me. You're a writer of fiction, not a moral tutor for the audience.

Characters' flaws are what makes them interesting in the end of the day. Might as well remove her greed while she's at it since it's also a bad message to send.

And as soon as I start regretting not being there at the time, someone says the exact same words I would have.
Thank you Cerussite, this is for you.
http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1378/35/1378354016723.png

/End of the OT, thanks for clarifying me what this was all about

Math_Mage

2013-12-10, 03:17 PM

Holy hell, that was painful to read. :smalleek:
I can't believe some people would feel offended by catfights slut shaming, which is something that not only happens but is actually natural during fights, regardless of sex.
I'm not sure how one would go about distinguishing 'natural' from 'heavily socialized' in this case. It being common doesn't make it either natural or laudable.

Truly "political correctness" is the most harmful trait of our society.
This statement is rather frustrating because it's impossible to dispute at length without wandering off into forbidden territory...but let's just say there are some rather severe problems with society that come ahead of that one in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Ridureyu

2013-12-10, 03:17 PM

Man, I feel like somebody needs to say something really offensive to derail the thread further.

Well, okay...

"We should kill all the members of a social group To which I do not belong, for they are responsible for many of society's ills!"

That should cover it. Argue away!

Kish

2013-12-10, 03:20 PM

Truly "political correctness" is the most harmful trait of our society.
It's very nice to have enough privilege that you can believe that, isn't it?

Ridureyu

2013-12-10, 03:22 PM

Let's phrase it this way:

Do any of you want people to scream racial slurs at Roy during a fight? If so, could you please leave now and never bother decent people again with your racist garbage? Thanks.

Likewise, it's for the best that the comic stops constantly using terminology that degrades women into meat. If you disagree with this, see my statement above and replace "racist" with "rape-culture sexist."

This is not a gray-area issue. It is as black and white as stabbing children.

Nimin

2013-12-10, 03:41 PM

I'm not sure how one would go about distinguishing 'natural' from 'heavily socialized' in this case. It being common doesn't make it either natural or laudable.
Ever been in a fight? It comes perfectly natural and instinctive to throw fits and insults at your opponent even if it doesn't end up physical, the human equivalent of animals growling at each other.

This statement is rather frustrating because it's impossible to dispute at length without wandering off into forbidden territory...but let's just say there are some rather severe problems with society that come ahead of that one in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Well it's obviously varying from person to person, but to me "political correctness" and "censorship" are among the worst.

It's very nice to have enough privilege that you can believe that, isn't it?

I'm just a Dwarf in the Playground, so... no? :smallconfused:

But seriously, I already said I want this OT to end. If you wanna continue please PM me.
The end, for real.

Kornaki

2013-12-10, 03:49 PM

I'm just a Dwarf in the Playground, so... no? :smallconfused:

Yup, the number of posts you have on giantitp.com/forums is directly correlated with your social status. Good observation.

The word privilege here means the benefits society endows upon you over others who do not share similar traits to you (typically gender, race, sexual orientation etc)

Scow2

2013-12-10, 03:54 PM

Do any of you want people to scream racial slurs at Roy during a fight? If so, could you please leave now and never bother decent people again with your racist garbage? Thanks.From my own observation, there are lots of people who would scream racial slurs at Roy in a fight. Furthermore, all of them share his skin color (Or are even darker).

multilis

2013-12-10, 03:54 PM

Likewise, it's for the best that the comic stops constantly using terminology that degrades women into meat. If you disagree with this, see my statement above and replace "racist" with "rape-culture sexist."

This is not a gray-area issue. It is as black and white as stabbing children.
I think we need to build more maximum security jails. People who stab children go there.

We have worlds of people who wear high heeled shoes (damage own feet to act as "meat" eye candy), music industries, advertising, etc.

Worse than even Roy being insulted is those dumb blond jokes, they insult both blonde hair race and usually females. I suggest we throw anyone telling such a joke into jail for at least 5 years, and permanently ban from internet. Lets not underreact, this is similar to stabbing children!

PS: If you don't think blonde hair is a race... have you seen how many parts of worlds don't have many natural blondes?

PPS: Yo mamma may not be a race, but please don't insult her gland condition either!

PPPS: If V wants to defeat T, all V needs to do is insult his abillity to be studly man-meat. Then his feelings will be so hurt he will be forced to try and seduce Haley rather than kill her.

Bulldog Psion

2013-12-10, 03:56 PM

Huh, unless I'm much mistaken, this thread just took a turn onto the road marked "Heading South Fast. Next Stop: Disaster, NG*. Distance, shorter than you'd like."

(*NG = New Gobbotopia. My first impulse was to use my own state abbreviation, then I realized any state abbreviation I used might be offensive to someone. So, I made one up based on the comic, hopefully bringing a tiny speck of levity to my otherwise rather alarmed post.)

Greatmoustache

2013-12-10, 04:09 PM

I think we need to build more maximum security jails. People who stab children go there.

We have worlds of people who wear high heeled shoes (damage own feet to act as "meat" eye candy), music industries, advertising, etc.

Worse than even Roy being insulted is those dumb blond jokes, they insult both blonde hair race and usually females. I suggest we throw anyone telling such a joke into jail for at least 5 years, and permanently ban from internet. Lets not underreact, this is similar to stabbing children!

PS: If you don't think blonde hair is a race... have you seen how many parts of worlds don't have many natural blondes?

PPS: Yo mamma may not be a race, but please don't insult her gland condition either!

PPPS: If V wants to defeat T, all V needs to do is insult his abillity to be studly man-meat. Then his feelings will be so hurt he will be forced to try and seduce Haley rather than kill her.

umm... i'm pretty sure that the ridureyu, who said "it's black and white as stabbing children" actually meant, "it's not in a gray area. it's so very obviously a bad thing to do. just as the act of stabbing children is." and not "racist/sexist jokes equals/similar to belkar'ly child stabbing bonanza!"

now i'm sure ridureyu for themselves (perhaps i'll be swordsage'd by him/her when i will have posted this.) but it just hurts to see that part of your post so i couldn't help interfering.

Zubrowka74

2013-12-10, 04:13 PM

Wow.

The shoving down the throat of extreme points of view made me not want to comment this thread anymore.

Please take it down a notch or two...

Composer99

2013-12-10, 04:14 PM

multilis

2013-12-10, 04:21 PM

umm... i'm pretty sure that the ridureyu, who said "it's black and white as stabbing children" actually meant, "it's not in a gray area. it's so very obviously a bad thing to do. just as the act of stabbing children is." and not "racist/sexist jokes equals/similar to belkar'ly child stabbing bonanza!"

now i'm sure ridureyu for themselves (perhaps i'll be swordsage'd by him/her when i will have posted this.) but it just hurts to see that part of your post so i couldn't help interfering.
(I know, I was demonstration exaggeration there, the whole post was not meant to be taken too seriously but rather a parody of common heated arguments... similar to saying a blonde joke about was nasty to all blondes, etc. Comic has also insulted men - eg Belkar's burn jokes on Roy with his girlfriend similar to joking about Haley's flying tramp adversaries, both aren't reflection on views of all people. If taken to an extreme, "no shades of grey" means one punishment for all crimes.)

Scow2

2013-12-10, 04:35 PM

I'm wondering how V cast the spell in the first place, given that it's from her barred school.

Nimin

2013-12-10, 04:44 PM

I'm wondering how V cast the spell in the first place, given that it's from her barred school.

Well, it is clearly homebrewed. I'm not that familiar with the rules on spell-making, but V couldn't have made it evocation based?

Zubrowka74

2013-12-10, 04:50 PM

Well, it is clearly homebrewed. I'm not that familiar with the rules on spell-making, but V couldn't have made it evocation based?

It's Pathfinder and she can still cast spells from barred schools.

Nimin

2013-12-10, 04:57 PM

Wait, how?

orrion

2013-12-10, 05:02 PM

I'm wondering how V cast the spell in the first place, given that it's from her barred school.

Rule of Funny trumps rules, and that was extremely early in the comic. Early enough that the restrictions may not have been in place yet.

warrl

2013-12-10, 05:18 PM

I think Baleful Polymorph would treat human babies as "immature Medium-sized creatures," despite their currently falling within the size range for Small-sized creatures.

Well, THAT objection could be fixed by transforming Bloodfeast into a Halfling infant.

(No comment on any other objections.)

CombatOwl

2013-12-10, 05:43 PM

I think V will win but it will be difficult. Roy is away and unaware of danger, Durkon is meditating, Haley is out for the count

She has two arms and can still sneak attack with a melee weapon.

and Elan can't go 1 on 1 with Tarquin. V has to deal with them both really.

Elan only needs to distract Tarquin for a round or two while V Wizards Laurin to death.

What I will do is repeat what the forums have been saying for a while: Laurin has used a lot of PP.

(I am guessing what powers were used because I know nothing about psionics. Based on a quick SRD search also assuming she is a Telepath)

10x Wormhole (2ed I've seen people say)
1x Mind Probe on Nale
1x Energy Stun on Haley
1x Brain Lock on Roy
1x Body Adjustment on self
1x Psionic Blast on everyone
1x Dispel on Durkon (seemed like a special specific one for Malack based on her speech)
1x Telekinetic Force on the whip
1x Recall Death on Julio (really didn't know with this one)
1x Disintegrate on the hand

That is a lot of power points. 10 wormholes is no joke people.

+ disintegrate on Nale too.

Storm_Of_Snow

2013-12-11, 05:16 AM

And, as I pointed out earlier, the two Dimension Doors to get away from Durkon and to get back to Tarquin so she could psi-blast Julio.

But all we really know for certain is that she's manifested a lot of abilities in the last 20-30 minutes and had two levels drained by Durkon, which will knock off some powers (sadly wormhole wasn't one of them), hit points and psi-points.

End of the day, Laurin will run out of power points when she runs out of them (although my personal feeling is she's not too far off empty, maybe under 100 or so, and she'll keep some to escape if necessary).

Grey_Wolf_c

2013-12-11, 09:57 AM

End of the day, Laurin will run out of power points when she runs out of them (although my personal feeling is she's not too far off empty, maybe under 100 or so, and she'll keep some to escape if necessary).

A psion with 100 points can still manifest four level-9 spells before having to retreat. V doesn't have anything that even compares to that first thing in the morning, never mind this late in the day.

That said, she may have lost all level-9 powers she had other than wormhole, so instead she could potentially cast five level-8s + wormhole. I suspect that still gives her quite the edge above V, but the fact that she chose to preserve the wormhole power suggests that her heart is not on the mission, and that she'd rather have a way out than a way to win. Like in many battles, it is easy to underestimate the effect of morale, and in this case, no matter how many PP powers she has left, Laurin might just be running on fumes when it comes to loyalty and dedication.

Grey Wolf

Zubrowka74

2013-12-11, 10:53 AM

Rule of Funny trumps rules, and that was extremely early in the comic. Early enough that the restrictions may not have been in place yet.

Hence the blue text. :smallwink:

orrion

2013-12-11, 11:46 AM

Hence the blue text. :smallwink:

I wasn't quoting you, and Scow's text wasn't blue.

Silverionmox

2013-12-11, 12:35 PM

Yes, this was a thing that happened. I'm saying that it's not going to be repeated, and heck, I'd go far as to speculate that the Giant probably regrets ever writing the scene that way in the first place. I suspect that the only reason the scene as written made it to print in the first place was that message in those days took a back seat to comedy, and because the audience was small enough that it wouldn't matter much what message the strip conveyed. Nowadays the audience is larger and more varied, and the Giant has long since established that he's interested in making a point with his tale.And society has changed, and Burlew has matured a lot more since those days as well. I think he's on record saying that he regrets that joke now... as well as regret over Haley's incessant slut-shaming once he was called out on it and explained how damaging the 'jokes' are.

I don't see why using certain elements in your story or not indicates support to use them in society. Because then the Giant would be a supporter of mass murder of innocents - quod non.

Specifically, the serial slut-shaming showed perfectly well how arbitrary it is, so I don't any reason to regret that. I see no reason for self-censorship. In fact, the overreaction towards the spiked tentacles was funny in its absurdity: burning someones face off and electrocuting them is okay, but forced intrusion is somehow worse? Next you're going to accuse him of supporting necrophilia and filicide because he didn't censor that.

Fish

2013-12-11, 12:38 PM

MesiDoomstalker

2013-12-11, 01:31 PM

I suspect the fight will go like this:

Laurin: I will use my psionic power to discern your greatest weakness and...
:vaarsuvius: Problem?
Laurin: You killed a quarter of the black dragons in the world ... with one spell ... and that's your greatest weakness?
:vaarsuvius: Yes.
Laurin: ... It's all you, Tarkie. Bye.

While funny and awesome, I don't supsect this will happen mainly because I don't think V would be so non-chalant about it. Even if Laurin is her enemy, I don't think V would want her to know. Its kind of embarrassing on an epic scale. A shameful embarrassing but embarrassing nonetheless.

Bulldog Psion

2013-12-11, 02:48 PM

While funny and awesome, I don't supsect this will happen mainly because I don't think V would be so non-chalant about it. Even if Laurin is her enemy, I don't think V would want her to know. Its kind of embarrassing on an epic scale. A shameful embarrassing but embarrassing nonetheless.

Well, there's no "want" involved in that scenario, though. :smallwink: It's Laurin going in directly to detect V's greatest weakness, and finding the death of 25% of one of world's most powerful creatures as that weakness, and fleeing in terror.

It would be hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

Composer99

2013-12-11, 04:19 PM

Wait, how?

Assuming you are referring to the blue-text remark about Pathfinder, a Pathfinder wizard (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/wizard.html#_wizard) who specializes in a single school of magic:

must select two other schools as his opposition schools, representing knowledge sacrificed in one area of arcane lore to gain mastery in another. A wizard who prepares spells from his opposition schools must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell. For example, a wizard with evocation as an opposition school must expend two of his available 3rd-level spell slots to prepare a fireball. In addition, a specialist takes a –4 penalty on any skill checks made when crafting a magic item that has a spell from one of his opposition schools as a prerequisite. A universalist wizard can prepare spells from any school without restriction.

(If you are not referring to the Pathfinder remark, please disregard, unless you like trivia about Open Game D&D variants.)

MesiDoomstalker

2013-12-11, 04:27 PM

Well, there's no "want" involved in that scenario, though. :smallwink: It's Laurin going in directly to detect V's greatest weakness, and finding the death of 25% of one of world's most powerful creatures as that weakness, and fleeing in terror.

It would be hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

Of course, barring the Will save, there is nothing V can do to prevent Laurin finding out. My point is V wouldn't be all "Yup" V'd freak out because she found out V's secret and open a Magical can of WHOOP in embarrassment. Or breakdown crying again. One of the two.

Lamech

2013-12-11, 07:03 PM

I could totally see that happening. Followed by V freaking out or going on about her shame. Followed by Laurin noping the hell out, and the party being impressed by it, and V having an even bigger freak out.

Fish

2013-12-11, 07:34 PM

I don't know about nonchalant, but I could see it happening nevertheless. V is prepared to confess; perhaps steadfast is a better emotional descriptor. We'd then get to see Roy ask, "Who the what the what now?" after Laurin buggered out.

SavageWombat

2013-12-11, 08:08 PM

I'm wondering how V cast the spell in the first place, given that it's from her barred school.

Just say that V was casting Shadow Conjuration and we're OK.

Incidentally, why should V be the one to defeat Tarquin, since it's not V's story?

Elan will be the one to defeat Tarquin. The question is what form that defeat will take.

Ridureyu

2013-12-11, 08:19 PM

It can be argued that much of this arc is V's story, what with the self-realization about how and when to confront guilt, the revelation over Familicide, and v's new combat role.

Scow2

2013-12-11, 08:26 PM

Incidentally, why should V be the one to defeat Tarquin, since it's not V's story?Because being defeated by Elan is what Tarquin wants. Being bumped off by V is the most narratively underwhelming thin that can happen to Tarquin, and thus the most fitting for a narrative-obsessed villain.

Dash

2013-12-11, 08:28 PM

I'm not too sure about a mind probe, but the very least, Vaarsuvius is going to have to win in a creative way, because he's actually low on spells:

1:
2: Protection from Arrows, Scorching Ray
3: Fireball, Lightning Bolt x 3
4: Wall of Fire, Stoneskin, Fly
5: Overland Flight, Passwall, Hold Monster
6: Greater Dispel Magic, Forceful Hand, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning
7: Prismatic Spray, Bugsby’s Grasping Hand
8:

These are the spells that Vaarsuvius has already cast today. (Minus any I missed, which would only further decrease what's available!) The only real trump card seems to be whatever 8th-level spell he's sitting on (be it Power Word Stun or something unknown).

Even if Vaarsuvius had all spells remaining, Laurin still has, what, 4 or 5 levels on him? Possibly even with the level drain factored in? (Given that Malack's ECL was 20 and Tarquin's is evidently 21 or more.) I do want Vaarsuvius to win, but despite the implication of the most recent update's last panel I don't think this will be the same sort of straight-up "caster fight" we saw with Zz'dtri or whomever else, just because V has so few spells left and a level disadvantage besides.

But then, these sort of fights in the comic are usually won with teamwork (e.g. the Silicon Elemental) or unexpected outside-the-box thinking that requires creative resource management (e.g. Zz'dtri), or, of course, "plot," or all of the above. It's never as simple as a 1-on-1 with the outcome determined by whether or not one of them is "outmatched" from a mechanics point of view. Vaarsuvius is definitely in a position to get outside help from a teammate, too-- as is Laurin.

CombatOwl

2013-12-11, 08:34 PM

Ridureyu

2013-12-11, 08:40 PM

Who says they'll allow Belkar to drink any healing potions? Roy might say no.

CombatOwl

2013-12-11, 08:44 PM

Who says they'll allow Belkar to drink any healing potions? Roy might say no.

Uhh, after Mr. Team Player was so helpful and daring by fighting on with 1hp? Yeah, right. We already know Roy wants Belkar healed anyway, he said as much a few comics back.

Kish

2013-12-11, 08:49 PM

Whatever anyone's opinion of Roy's going out of his way to keep Belkar alive this long, he's not suddenly going to start acting like Tarquin and tell a member of his team who has actually be showing rudimentary traces of a conscience, "No healing potions for you. Hurry up and finish dying!"

Ghost Nappa

2013-12-11, 08:54 PM

Belkar is going to come running out of the storage area of the ship, charge Tarquin and the two of them will fall to their deaths.

On a more serious note, it's 4v2. Julio should be perfectly capable of having a mid-air rope battle with Tarquin if needed.

Scow2

2013-12-11, 09:41 PM

MesiDoomstalker

2013-12-11, 10:18 PM

Healing potions won't work on Belkar: He's technically at Full Health.

Unfortunately, his "Full Health" is what's been destroyed, suffering -5 for each Negative Level he took, and -5xLevel for each HD he has.

We don't really know where Belkar is in terms of his HP and his new maximum. He's surely taken some damage since being suckled on, so he's at least below his current maximum. Negative levels don't actually lower your maximum HP. The -5 per level is representation of how much HP you wouldn't have if you were a level lower. His lowered Constitution, however, would. Depending on his rolls for his levels, he can have a fair number of HP. Not great, especially at his level, but not low enough to be offed by any attack at max.

SavageWombat

2013-12-11, 10:26 PM

Because being defeated by Elan is what Tarquin wants. Being bumped off by V is the most narratively underwhelming thin that can happen to Tarquin, and thus the most fitting for a narrative-obsessed villain.

Being defeated by Elan on Tarquin's terms is what Tarquin wants. Elan has to defeat Tarquin on Elan's terms.

Just because Tarquin sees a narrative (wrongly) doesn't mean there isn't a narrative present - Rich's narrative. And this part of Rich's narrative is Elan's story.

Whatever happens to Tarquin at this point is going to be due to Elan coming to some sort of decision - not V outmaneuvering him tactically. Mark my words.

orrion

2013-12-11, 11:35 PM

If V were optimized, this would be a gimmie. But that is not the case, and I suspect that V will end up being as useless as normal for story reasons. Obviously TT is going to have a problem here, because Roy and Julio will both be back int he fight very shortly. Possibly Durkula too. Even if V can do nothing but keep Laurin busy, Tarquin will not be able to win against a fully healed Roy and Belkar, and a somewhat damaged Julio and Elan.

I find it odd that you think V will be "as useless as normal for story reasons." This has been set up as a time when V can actually showcase his power because he's facing his opposite number that is just as powerful.

If ever there were a time when V wasn't going to be suppressed for story reasons it's now.

We don't really know where Belkar is in terms of his HP and his new maximum. He's surely taken some damage since being suckled on, so he's at least below his current maximum. Negative levels don't actually lower your maximum HP. The -5 per level is representation of how much HP you wouldn't have if you were a level lower. His lowered Constitution, however, would. Depending on his rolls for his levels, he can have a fair number of HP. Not great, especially at his level, but not low enough to be offed by any attack at max.

Roy states that Belkar is "a crossbow bolt away from dying," and he hides from the Silicon elemental because he's afraid that 1 hit will indeed kill him.

We haven't seen him take any lethal damage since the draining.

By all indications he's got a Con of 1 right now and is in single digits for health from that and the drain.

MesiDoomstalker

2013-12-11, 11:57 PM

I find it odd that you think V will be "as useless as normal for story reasons." This has been set up as a time when V can actually showcase his power because he's facing his opposite number that is just as powerful.

If ever there were a time when V wasn't going to be suppressed for story reasons it's now.

Roy states that Belkar is "a crossbow bolt away from dying," and he hides from the Silicon elemental because he's afraid that 1 hit will indeed kill him.

We haven't seen him take any lethal damage since the draining.

By all indications he's got a Con of 1 right now and is in single digits for health from that and the drain.

At current. His MAX HP however, could be higher, enough to take 2 or 3 blows. I was responding someone stating Belkar's MAX HP is low enough to be one shotted so being healed wouldn't matter. I pointed out that his MAX HP (can I stress the MAX there more?) is probably higher than "Completely worthless" so healing would be prudent.

orrion

2013-12-12, 01:05 AM

At current. His MAX HP however, could be higher, enough to take 2 or 3 blows. I was responding someone stating Belkar's MAX HP is low enough to be one shotted so being healed wouldn't matter. I pointed out that his MAX HP (can I stress the MAX there more?) is probably higher than "Completely worthless" so healing would be prudent.

Belkar was the only member aside from V (who appeared to be at full) who didn't guzzle any of the potions Durkon had both (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html) we saw potions being used.

The second time you can argue Roy drank the last of them, but there's no reason not to have given Belkar a potion the first time around. They didn't know they would be fighting again. The likely explanation is that a potion wouldn't have done Belkar any good.

Darn typos.

Scow2

2013-12-12, 02:27 AM

We don't really know where Belkar is in terms of his HP and his new maximum. He's surely taken some damage since being suckled on, so he's at least below his current maximum. Negative levels don't actually lower your maximum HP. The -5 per level is representation of how much HP you wouldn't have if you were a level lower. His lowered Constitution, however, would. Depending on his rolls for his levels, he can have a fair number of HP. Not great, especially at his level, but not low enough to be offed by any attack at max.
Negative levels DO lower the maximum HP on top of penalties to max HP from negative constitution modifiers: A wizard with a CON of 8 is still getting slapped with a -5 HP for each Negative Level, despite a maximum possible HP gain of 3 per level, and he's hit with a CON-Draining attack, he loses another HP per level per modifier lost, to a minimum of 1 HP per Hit Die... which is further lowered by 5 HP per Negative Level.

Niknokitueu

2013-12-12, 07:17 AM

Composer99

2013-12-12, 09:03 AM

For the record with respect to negative levels/energy drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#energyDrained):

Energy Drained
The character gains one or more negative levels, which might permanently drain the character’s levels. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, he dies. Each negative level gives a creature the following penalties: -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks; loss of 5 hit points; and -1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities). In addition, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from the highest spell level castable. [Subtitle formatting original.]

and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060620a):

Energy Drained: If you take a look at Complete Psionic (page 100) or the sidebar included here, you'll find some rules for dealing with negative levels.

From page 100 of Complete Psionic:

Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks; deals 5 points of damage; and gives a -1 penalty to effective level (for determining the duration, DC, and other details of powers or special abilities). Additionally, a psionic manifester loses a number of power points equal to his original manifester level. Negative levels stack. Power point losses for each subsequent stacked negative level are calculated from the effective (lowered) level each time. [Emphasis mine here, otherwise all italics/bold are original.]

Furthermore, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from the highest spell level available to him. If two or more spells fit this criterion, the caster decides which one becomes inaccessible. The lost spell becomes available again as soon as the negative level is removed, providing the caster would be capable of using it at that time.

MtlGuy

2013-12-13, 01:11 PM

Ok, I'm now a little sorry I brought up the tentacle spell. I just thought it was a funny joke. I didn't realize it was such a contentious issue.

Nimin

2013-12-13, 01:44 PM

Ok, I'm now a little sorry I brought up the tentacle spell. I just thought it was a funny joke. I didn't realize it was such a contentious issue.
Don't worry, it still is a funny joke. :smallsmile: There's nothing to feel bad about.

Silverionmox

2013-12-13, 02:42 PM

Ok, I'm now a little sorry I brought up the tentacle spell. I just thought it was a funny joke. I didn't realize it was such a contentious issue.It's only contentious for people who like contention. Don't let them make you paranoid.

Spoomeister

2013-12-13, 03:12 PM

...Unless Rich decides to do so for comic effect. Again.

Seroiusly, though, I feel the resolution will not be an Epic Caster Fight. Maybe a quickly-resolved Caster Fight (including possibly very impressive application of a spell or two), just not a really long one.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

It occurs to me that there might be a third way - Laurin and V having an Epic Casterfight in the background, with only colors and drawings for reference and no spell names shouted out, while Tarquin, Elan and whoever else are skirmishing and talking in the foreground.

That would be semi-viciously mean on Rich's part, because it could spin off MONTHS worth of speculation threads. "What were V and Laurin casting in 935 Geekery, page 40 of 57..."

orrion

2013-12-13, 03:17 PM

It occurs to me that there might be a third way - Laurin and V having an Epic Casterfight in the background, with only colors and drawings for reference and no spell names shouted out, while Tarquin, Elan and whoever else are skirmishing and talking in the foreground.

That would be semi-viciously mean on Rich's part, because it could spin off MONTHS worth of speculation threads. "What were V and Laurin casting in 935 Geekery, page 40 of 57..."

They were having tea and biscuits.

David Argall

2013-12-13, 05:03 PM

Laurin has lots of power points. She is not even close to being drained or she would not be on the ship.

It is pretty easy to imagine the scene...
Tarquin: Gate us onto the ship.
Laurin: I can gate you if you want, but I won't be going. I'm too close to empty, and could not get off once I got on. And I am your partner, not your minion. So forget it.

So Laurin has plenty of PP for this fight. She may well be low at the end, but she has enough to kill the entire party and gate to safety while the ship crashes.

Fish

2013-12-13, 05:58 PM

No. About the most you can logically infer is that Laurin thinks she has enough to deal with the threat she thinks she's up against, in a way that suits her. She needn't be correct.

Her methods for dealing with the Order may not include defeating all in single combat. I cannot assume she's committed to fight to the end. She doesn't owe Tarquin anything. She's fighting for "a favor." She may decide she doesn't need it that badly. Or she may be leading Tarquin in over his head, knowing she can get out.

There's more than one conclusion than "she has lots of power points, enough to defeat everybody and escape."

Bulhakov

2013-12-13, 06:57 PM

David Argall

2013-12-13, 07:44 PM

No. About the most you can logically infer is that Laurin thinks she has enough to deal with the threat she thinks she's up against, in a way that suits her. She needn't be correct.
She is, however, the leading expert on how many power points she had, has used, and has remaining, as well as what goodies she is carrying. Our own guesses may be off by hundreds. When she acts like she has plenty left, we have to defer to her judgement until we have other evidence.

Her methods for dealing with the Order may...
Again, we are dealing with complete speculation. We know she willingly walked into a hostile environment vs at least one more or less equal, and several strong enough to be bothersome. We know she is there as a mercenary. All this says she has the weapons to take care of herself.

Or she may be leading Tarquin in over his head, knowing she can get out.
Now this is just going from the baseless speculation to outright against the evidence. They have been partners for decade[s]. They may not be warm friends, but they have been able to keep a complicated scheme on track for a long time without many getting wise. Any idea of her stabbing him in the back just denies this history.

There's more than one conclusion than "she has lots of power points, enough to defeat everybody and escape."
True, she might have enough to defeat them twice, or 3 times, or...

orrion

2013-12-13, 08:31 PM

She is, however, the leading expert on how many power points she had, has used, and has remaining, as well as what goodies she is carrying. Our own guesses may be off by hundreds. When she acts like she has plenty left, we have to defer to her judgement until we have other evidence.

Her judgment could be wrong. Neither side is proven without more evidence, which makes either one plausible.

Bulldog Psion

2013-12-13, 09:07 PM

Since it's unlikely Laurin would be as blinded / suicidal as Tarquin, I suspect at least she has a plan. My current idea - she portals the whole ship. Possibly crashing it into the middle of Tarq's army.

That would be masochistically satisfying, I suppose, like a Victor Hugo novel. :smallbiggrin:

gorocz

2013-12-13, 09:21 PM

In D&D you can wear only one magical ring per hand, so unless he's Goro in disguise 2 is the maximum number he should normally wear at the same time.

Nope, not me... Also, he's most likely Hinjo in disguise (obviously), check the quote by Tock Zipporah in my sig :smallbiggrin:

Fish

2013-12-13, 10:43 PM

She is, however, the leading expert on how many power points she had, has used, and has remaining, as well as what goodies she is carrying.
She is not a leading expert on how many points she's going to need in this specific fight. She is, as I said, making her best guess based upon a) what she plans to do, which is based upon b) what she wants to achieve.

You assume she has "lots of points" because you assume a) she would need to defeat them all personally and b) she intends to. There is no evidence for either assumption, only supposition. She has known Tarquin for years, and worked with him, but there is no evidence that they have worked harmoniously. Or selflessly. No evidence.

I'll give you another free speculation that is equally probable to yours: she says, "I defeated Roy for you. You owe me one. Goodbye, Tarkie — I never agreed to fight these others."

Rodin

2013-12-14, 12:36 AM

One suggestion that I haven't seen raised is that Laurin warned about how low on PP she is, but Tarquin insisted on going up and convinced Laurin that the Order is on its last legs. This would be consistent with Tarquin's underestimation of the Order throughout this entire fight - he believes he can solo the entire group at this point.

As to why Laurin came through despite being low on points, she's more rational than Tarquin and came because she isn't underestimating her opponents. There's a Wormhole saved to get them both out of trouble if things go south.

She's cautiously optimistic - either Tarquin is right, and she gets her favor, or Tarquin is wrong, and they retreat.

Niknokitueu

2013-12-14, 04:26 AM

Or she may be leading Tarquin in over his head, knowing she can get out.
Of your many arguments, this one is definitely wrong. She is doing this in exchange of a favour, which she has already decided upon (can complete before the day is out). She has a vested interest in Tarkie surviving this fight, so would not deliberately lead him in over his head.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. Like the idea of an epic casterfight going on in the background. Allows Rich to big-up V without having him dominate the main Tarquin/Elan confrontation. (Unless, of course, it is time to finally permanently throw Tarquin's plot off-track and have a non-family member kill him. Which by my reckoning will be in about another 150 comics.)

orrion

2013-12-14, 11:24 AM

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. Like the idea of an epic casterfight going on in the background. Allows Rich to big-up V without having him dominate the main Tarquin/Elan confrontation. (Unless, of course, it is time to finally permanently throw Tarquin's plot off-track and have a non-family member kill him. Which by my reckoning will be in about another 150 comics.)

I question how you would have an epic caster fight going on "in the background" of the deck of an airship. I mean, do you think Laurin is going to obligingly cast some sort of Fly spell, then they both fly off the deck and mutually decide not to cast dispels at each other? Sounds a bit far-fetched.

David Argall

2013-12-14, 01:01 PM

She is not a leading expert on how many points she's going to need in this specific fight.
She is THE leading expert.

She is, as I said, making her best guess based upon a) what she plans to do, which is based upon b) what she wants to achieve.
And that means she is not going to run dry or anything close to it.

You assume she has "lots of points" because you assume a) she would need to defeat them all personally and b) she intends to. There is no evidence for either assumption, only supposition.
Far weaker assumptions still lead to the conclusion she has lots of PP and is not going to run out. She has enough to escape, with Tarquin [since his death negates her motive for going at all]. She has enough to protect herself for several rounds since she is not suicidal. She has enough to allow being hit by Durkon at least once. ... The simple fact she come on board says she has PP to spare.
But let's say she is about to run dry. Why did she risk her life like that? She doesn't seriously worry about the party getting away, no skin off her nose. Tarquin might have lost all sense in keeping after Elan like this, but she has been entirely rational. She expects to win here, and when your life is on the line in a fight you could avoid by doing nothing, "expects" means 99-1 odds in your favor. Even then, you have a very good[bad?] chance of never surviving to grandmotherly years because that 1% does happen. So if Laurin is running dry, she is highly confident that Tarquin will handle the lot of them by himself. And she remains far more knowledgeable on the subject that we.

She has known Tarquin for years, and worked with him, but there is no evidence that they have worked harmoniously. Or selflessly. No evidence.
This is the lawyer version of "no evidence", which means merely that there is no evidence I can't try to ignore, not that there is any actual lack of evidence.
Tarquin and Laurin have been working together for 20? years. If there was a credible chance of a breakup, it would have happened years ago.

I'll give you another free speculation that is equally probable to yours: she says, "I defeated Roy for you. You owe me one. Goodbye, Tarkie — I never agreed to fight these others."
Speculations are not equally probable even when supported by no evidence. A simple example of this would be "Sabine will kill Tarquin" vs "Sabine will kill Tarquin after seducing him". She might kill him several other ways. and so the first theory is more likely than the 2nd. No evidence is needed to conclude that.
But our free speculation is flawed on other grounds as well. If Tarquin dies here, she can only lose from going in the first place. Also, quibbling is a very bad tactic when you are talking about a favor. If Laurin makes Tarquin mad, she is not getting that favor, no matter what she says she offered.
So our two speculations are not equally probable, not even close.

orrion

2013-12-14, 04:55 PM

She is THE leading expert.

Which doesn't count for much. How often do you think Laurin has faced a party of 6 adventurers, anyway?

Math_Mage

2013-12-14, 08:24 PM

She is THE leading expert.

And that means she is not going to run dry or anything close to it.
...until something unexpected happens. Because, y'know, Laurin isn't omniscient. Nor is she a genius (as far as we know). It IS possible that she's, y'know, not accounting for everything that could happen.

Scow2

2013-12-14, 08:43 PM

Nor is she a genius (as far as we know).Actually, she is by definition and class restriction: She's capable of manifesting 9th-level powers, which requires at least a 19 in INT.

Sir_Dr_D

2013-12-14, 08:55 PM

I have only read part of this thread. But it would be within character for V to cast in the first round
- quickened (something or other)
- dimensional anchor

Then Laurin would be stuck, and might actually start to panic.

V would also need to protect him/her self from another mind blast. I don't know if their is a wizard spell for that. But he will probably do so by keeping her distance.

Math_Mage

2013-12-14, 08:55 PM

Actually, she is by definition and class restriction: She's capable of manifesting 9th-level powers, which requires at least a 19 in INT.
Oh, whoops, misremembered which mental attribute she ran on.

Still, geniuses miscalculate all the time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) So I don't think that's too much of an issue for my point. :smallsmile:

David Argall

2013-12-14, 09:27 PM

Which doesn't count for much. How often do you think Laurin has faced a party of 6 adventurers, anyway?
Oh around 150. Of course, that counts a number of fights where she faced less, but more powerful, foes, and she probably fought a lot of monsters too, but an adventurer faces about 9 combats per level, and a 20th level thus has faced hundreds of foes. If she mostly fought weaker foes like the Order, she could have faced 300 battles.

She is one of the best in the world, just like Tarquin is the best fighter of his generation. Of course, she has a lot of skill and experience.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-15, 06:59 AM

I have only read part of this thread. But it would be within character for V to cast in the first round
- quickened (something or other)
- dimensional anchor

Then Laurin would be stuck, and might actually start to panic.
Dispel psionics is much cheaper than wormhole. Or disintegrate, for that matter.

kylealdrete

2013-12-15, 09:42 AM

did anyone remember when haley picked up a ton of wands from the dead drow?

i think that may come in handy now that haley only has one usable arm.

i think the caster fight may be more a..."everyone blast her with surprise attacks"

also the crew of the airship might help also. (it IS a pirate ship isnt it?)

warrl

2013-12-15, 10:25 AM

As to why Laurin came through despite being low on points, she's more rational than Tarquin and came because she isn't underestimating her opponents. There's a Wormhole saved to get them both out of trouble if things go south.

She's cautiously optimistic - either Tarquin is right, and she gets her favor, or Tarquin is wrong, and they retreat.

However, there's a pretty good chance that she's one more Durkon-slam from losing the ability to wormhole out. She has another power for teleporting herself, but it isn't clear that she can take Tarquin with her or can go all the way back home (or even back to Tarquin's army) with it.

Edit: Some teleport powers are quite short-range, so that other power, whatever it is, might not be able to take her all the way to the ground.

Kish

2013-12-15, 10:42 AM

did anyone remember when haley picked up a ton of wands from the dead drow?

However, there's a pretty good chance that she's one more Durkon-slam from losing the ability to wormhole out.
Hey. I just realized.

Zz'dtri probably wasn't carrying a certain wand which Nale used on Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html), but if he was, Durkon wouldn't need to interrupt his meditations and/or realize the battle is still ongoing for Laurin to lose her ability to wormhole out.

orrion

2013-12-15, 10:58 AM

Oh around 150. Of course, that counts a number of fights where she faced less, but more powerful, foes, and she probably fought a lot of monsters too, but an adventurer faces about 9 combats per level, and a 20th level thus has faced hundreds of foes. If she mostly fought weaker foes like the Order, she could have faced 300 battles.

She is one of the best in the world, just like Tarquin is the best fighter of his generation. Of course, she has a lot of skill and experience.

You do realize that Tarquin is the only one we've heard call himself the greatest fighter of his generation, right?

Remember the Giant mentioned that Tarquin likes to embellish, such as when he states their party's entire plan was his idea?

David Argall

2013-12-15, 01:01 PM

You do realize that Tarquin is the only one we've heard call himself the greatest fighter of his generation, right?
We have had the others not dispute it, and confirm it indirectly. Nale is thrilled to have Tarquin as fighter. Malack denounces T for playing when he merely equals most of the party, and T apologizes for not making a serious effort. We can argue he is only #10 instead of #1, but he, and the rest of his party, are near the top, if not there, and well qualified to judge the situation. When they take major risks to take out a fleeing foe, the odds are they are right and the foe will lose.

A basic point to recall here is that drama loves David vs Goliath. That requires "David" to have as little rational chance as possible. After the fact, he may have a fine chance, but when he steps into the ring, the reader should be thinking of what to wear to "David's" funeral.
Here, the party, as often, is "David", and thus is a major underdog according to the "facts" known to the audience. Any analysis that gives the party the basic advantage is almost certain to be wrong.

orrion

2013-12-15, 01:27 PM

We have had the others not dispute it, and confirm it indirectly. Nale is thrilled to have Tarquin as fighter. Malack denounces T for playing when he merely equals most of the party, and T apologizes for not making a serious effort. We can argue he is only #10 instead of #1, but he, and the rest of his party, are near the top, if not there, and well qualified to judge the situation. When they take major risks to take out a fleeing foe, the odds are they are right and the foe will lose.

Nale is thrilled? Please show me (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) because I see nothing there to indicate that Nale is thrilled. Surprised, perhaps, but not thrilled. There's no "Yes! This is awesome!" or anything similar from him that would indicate he is "thrilled." "Thrilled" means "a sudden feeling of excitement or pleasure." I see no excitement or pleasure in Nale's bearing anywhere in that comic.

Nale is unlikely to challenge the "greatest fighter" thing so as not to rock the boat - he's on the edge of death there, remember? - and because he knows it would be pointless. Malack is just as unlikely for the latter reason and also because he's Tarquin's best pal. Can you cite someone who is not a family member or best friend not disputing Tarquin's boast?

Any analysis that gives the party the basic advantage is almost certain to be wrong.

I don't see that anyone has claimed the Order has the basic advantage. I just see a perfectly reasonable interpretation that Tarquin and Laurin could be mistaken in their level of superiority.

Reddish Mage

2013-12-15, 04:03 PM

I don't see that anyone has claimed the Order has the basic advantage. I just see a perfectly reasonable interpretation that Tarquin and Laurin could be mistaken in their level of superiority.

I did claim the Order has the advantage and will make a point of drama that Tarquin has lost his cool and the illusion that he is in control of the situation. No matter how many levels he may have the laws of the actual drama (rather than the one inside Tarquin's head) dictate his defeat.

Math_Mage

2013-12-15, 04:07 PM

Niknokitueu

2013-12-15, 06:29 PM

I question how you would have an epic caster fight going on "in the background" of the deck of an airship. I mean, do you think Laurin is going to obligingly cast some sort of Fly spell, then they both fly off the deck and mutually decide not to cast dispels at each other? Sounds a bit far-fetched.
Why do they need to do any of that?
The deck appears to be easily large enough for V and L to have an involved magical fight without needing to impose it upon the rest of the combatants.
You are the one suggesting that they are going to go off and not cast spells at each other. I am suggesting that they could (and I really must emphasise could) have a spellcaster vs spellcaster combat whilst the focus of the ongoing frames is on the 'Tarquin vs rest of OotS' fight.

I accept that what is more likely to happen is T&L will beat down upon the party until victory seems almost inevitable before Durkula comes back into the affray (possibly with Belkar, possibly without, possibly with him Restored, possibly not, and possibly to fulfil the prophecy).

There is even a quite likely possibility of someone killing Elan (or appearing to) in order to derail Tarquin's attempted plot railroading. Maybe even Elan throwing himself to his death in a heroic sacrifice.

All we can ever really do is to wait and watch.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Skorj

2013-12-15, 07:30 PM

I don't think it's reasonable to argue David's point by saying Laurin isn't an experienced adventurer. Team Tarquin didn't get to where they are by sitting around in palaces, that's just how they rest on their laurels. However, just because Laurin is an experienced adventurer doesn't make her an infallible calculator of encounter outcomes.

To emphasize this a bit: while the Giant has said repeatedly that the characters in OOTS don't get to read the rules before making build choices, a veteran team of adventurers in an outcome-oriented group like Team Tarquin are going to be well optimized by 20, even if they weren't at 1.

But I don't get the sense they've been adventuring in a while, and so while they may have good builds and good survival-oriented habits, actual on-the-spot judgment is likely clouded by not having faced a challenge in quite some time. They are likely higher level and better equipped than the OOTS, but if they're over-confident and don't take the fight seriously, it could go bad for them.

I think Laurin's burning PP like they don't matter, like Tarquin's not bothering to get a real sword, is a symptom of foolish over-confidence.

orrion

2013-12-15, 09:02 PM

Why do they need to do any of that?
The deck appears to be easily large enough for V and L to have an involved magical fight without needing to impose it upon the rest of the combatants.
You are the one suggesting that they are going to go off and not cast spells at each other. I am suggesting that they could (and I really must emphasise could) have a spellcaster vs spellcaster combat whilst the focus of the ongoing frames is on the 'Tarquin vs rest of OotS' fight.

Er, no, I did not suggest they go off and "not cast spells at each other." Reread that sentence - I mentioned dispels and not spells.

That would quite suck if the Giant used Blackwing to call attention to an imminent fight and then had the whole thing take place off-panel, as it were.

Skorj

2013-12-16, 01:12 AM

If V has learned anything in the past book, it won't be a caster fight, it will be a team sport. I'm eagerly awaiting this test of her devotion to not soloing the bosses any more.

Niknokitueu

2013-12-16, 03:54 AM

Er, no, I did not suggest they go off and "not cast spells at each other." Reread that sentence - I mentioned dispels and not spells.

That would quite suck if the Giant used Blackwing to call attention to an imminent fight and then had the whole thing take place off-panel, as it were.
Ah, my apologies.

So you were saying that they would decide to fly off and then agree not to cancel each other's flight spells? I can see where you had a problem. Lucky for us then that they do not need to fly off the ship.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Lamech

2013-12-19, 04:09 PM

V bagged it! The real question is how hard she was bluffing.

Of course if she wasn't bluffing I don't think T has long for this world.

Kish

2013-12-19, 04:15 PM

V bagged it! The real question is how hard he was bluffing.

Of course if he wasn't bluffing I don't think T has long for this world.
While I think betting on Tarquin alone against everyone now on the ship would be a sucker's game, Laurin demonstrated a couple big weaknesses here that Tarquin doesn't necessarily have:
1) Apparently "Nova with no conservation of power points" is the only tactic she knows.
2) She's unwilling to get hurt or affected in any way; as long as Vaarsuvius stayed on the attack, she would stay purely on defense. Vaarsuvius might well be dead now if she'd taken a slightly longer view and gone, instead, "Cone of Cold? Oh well, there goes 10% of my hit points, now eat Disintegrate!" or, "Dimensional Anchor? I guess I'd better decide to retreat the round before I actually retreat then, but for now, eat the stunning attack I've already seen incapacitate you!"

Fish

2013-12-19, 04:20 PM

She is THE leading expert.
Apparently she isn't. Nor are you. I said:

About the most you can logically infer is that Laurin thinks she has enough to deal with the threat she thinks she's up against, in a way that suits her.
And I was right: she thought she had as many as she needed (not many) to deal with the threat she thought she was up against (one wizard low on spells) in a way that suited her. And she was not correct.

Speculations are not equally probable even when supported by no evidence.
You should keep this as your signature, just to remind you.

Shale

2013-12-19, 04:25 PM

2) She's unwilling to get hurt or affected in any way; as long as Vaarsuvius stayed on the attack, she would stay purely on defense. Vaarsuvius might well be dead now if she'd taken a slightly longer view and gone, instead, "Cone of Cold? Oh well, there goes 10% of my hit points, now eat Disintegrate!" or, "Dimensional Anchor? I guess I'd better decide to retreat the round before I actually retreat then, but for now, eat the stunning attack I've already seen incapacitate you!"

I think she was playing the same game as Vaarsuvius, trying to run her opponent out of spellcasting power through sheer attrition. Except she didn't realize that V sat out almost all of the fights the party had been in that day, and started more or less fresh when the army attacked.

Ridureyu

2013-12-19, 04:37 PM

If V has learned anything in the past book, it won't be a caster fight, it will be a team sport. I'm eagerly awaiting this test of her devotion to not soloing the bosses any more.

V has learned nothing! V failed in the fight, and hir actions just cost the party dearly! Everybody died... oh, wait.

Lamech

2013-12-19, 05:25 PM

While I think betting on Tarquin alone against everyone now on the ship would be a sucker's game, Laurin demonstrated a couple big weaknesses here that Tarquin doesn't necessarily have:
1) Apparently "Nova with no conservation of power points" is the only tactic she knows.
2) She's unwilling to get hurt or affected in any way; as long as Vaarsuvius stayed on the attack, she would stay purely on defense. Vaarsuvius might well be dead now if she'd taken a slightly longer view and gone, instead, "Cone of Cold? Oh well, there goes 10% of my hit points, now eat Disintegrate!" or, "Dimensional Anchor? I guess I'd better decide to retreat the round before I actually retreat then, but for now, eat the stunning attack I've already seen incapacitate you!"

It does depend heavily on what spells V still has. If she tosses another forcecage at T... well that's that. He's a sitting duck for days. He's target practice at that point. A particularly tough target, but still just target practice.

veti

2013-12-19, 05:53 PM

It does depend heavily on what spells V still has. If she tosses another forcecage at T... well that's that. He's a sitting duck for days. He's target practice at that point. A particularly tough target, but still just target practice.

Appealing as that image is... I just don't see it happening.

Seems to me that Tarquin has four options at this point:

Bail. Take the 20d6 falling damage, walk away and live to haunt the plot again.
Try to tank the whole ship. Die pointlessly.
Pull some Evil shenanigans (along the lines of hostage-taking, or sabotaging the whole ship).
Surrender to Elan. Drama ensues.

The best part of (1) would be imagining the scene where he spends several rounds fumbling through his pockets for his Ring of Feather Falling, 'cuz he doesn't know Haley palmed it. But it means he's yet another recurring villain/loose end that needs to be tied up later. Basically, an upgraded, more menacing version of Nale.
(2) would be kinda anticlimactic, therefore against both his MO and Rich's.
(3) would be in character, but basically strings out this already-overstretched arc through yet another cliffhanger, and honestly isn't it high time we moved on?
So my money's on (4).

LogicalOxymoron

2013-12-19, 10:48 PM

Appealing as that image is... I just don't see it happening.

Seems to me that Tarquin has four options at this point:

Bail. Take the 20d6 falling damage, walk away and live to haunt the plot again.
Try to tank the whole ship. Die pointlessly.
Pull some Evil shenanigans (along the lines of hostage-taking, or sabotaging the whole ship).
Surrender to Elan. Drama ensues.

The best part of (1) would be imagining the scene where he spends several rounds fumbling through his pockets for his Ring of Feather Falling, 'cuz he doesn't know Haley palmed it. But it means he's yet another recurring villain/loose end that needs to be tied up later. Basically, an upgraded, more menacing version of Nale.
(2) would be kinda anticlimactic, therefore against both his MO and Rich's.
(3) would be in character, but basically strings out this already-overstretched arc through yet another cliffhanger, and honestly isn't it high time we moved on?
So my money's on (4).

I don't think 2 is all that out of character for Tarquin. Sure, he believes in a climactic story, but he believes that this isn't yet the climax: that he is the main villain to Elan's story when, in reality, he's just a side villain to Roy's, so I don't think he'll expect to die in that battle. Besides, he's starting to become more and more crazed as he loses control, so I can totally see him doing some things that the more reserved Tarquin never would have done.