Ruby knights, swift hunters and... Psionics?

[Ethelesin]

Greetings once again forum, seeing as the last time i hit a snag you were so kind to come to my timely rescue, i thought i`d test my luck and once again ask for assistance amongst the people here as my google-fu has been failing me and im facing dilemmas/questions to wich i dont have answers yet again.

Ruby Knight Vindicators, theres alot of talk about this class floating around here (and on optimization boards) i`ve taken a look at it and... Well all i get from it is that its the initiator/cleric way of becoming what the paladin should have been in the first place. Would anyone be as kind as to enlighten me as to why and how it has earned the "windicator" nickname and what exactly about its features is so game-breaking. (Aside from divine spellcasting)

Swift Hunters, what exactly is this? I´ve heard some people call it "the saving grace of archery" and similar stuff but i`ve never actually been able to find the class itself. Could anyone point me to it or atleast explain what makes this the "heres what you roll if you wanna be an archer" class in a game system that seems like it hates the bow and arrow.

Psionics, im trying to figure out what exactly is the difference between Psions and Wilders, i get theres some class feature stuff in there, (wild surge, wilder gains less powers stuff like that) but im just not getting it, might be a comprehension thing on my part. Any clarification on their diversities would be much appreciated as the Wizard/sorceror analogy just aint working for me.

Thanks in advance!

[lsfreak]

RKV: You can trade Tu attempts for swift actions. There's no limit to how often you can use it per round, so if you've got the uses, you could blow your entire Nightstick-boosted turning pool in a single turn. (On the other hand, since it doesn't actually have a listed action, by strict RAW it's a standard action to activate.)

Swift Hunter: Feat in Complete Scoundrel that lets ranger levels and scout levels stack for Favored Enemy and Skirmish. EDIT: The point is near-full-BAB skirmish with the ranger archery spells (skirmish being powered like normal, either Greater Multishot or a cloistered cleric dip for Knowledge + Travel Devotions).

Psions versus Wilders: There's not a huge difference to get.

[Psyren]

Psions get no real class features to speak of. However, they get bonus feats and more powers known.

Wilders get fewer powers known, but have a class feature called Wild Surge that lets them increase their ML (caster level), and thus the potency of their powers, at-will. They run the risk of suffering backlash ("psychic enervation") for using this ability, resulting in a risk/reward gameplay style. With Wilders, you want to focus on powers that have increased effects with a higher ML such as most direct-damage powers.

[Shloogorgh]

It''s also important to note that swift hunters allow for skirmish damage to apply to favored enemies, even if they are normally immune to precision damage, such as undead, contructs, elementals, and plants

[Kennisiou]

To add to the further addition about swift hunter, what that means is that because there are only five favored enemy types that default to being precision-damage immune (oozes, plants, undead, constructs, and elementals) this means you'll be able to skirmish on anything that is immune to precision damage by creature type if you get 20 total levels in scout and ranger. Still can't hit anything that's precision-damage immune for other reasons, though (which I believe means that if that lich is wearing fortification armor you still can't skirmish him even with swift hunter).

Also, swift hunter isn't only for ranged attackers! It's also one of the best uses of two-weapon fighting. Whereas archery swift hunters can do without the CC dip, TWF Swift Hunters basically need a dip for Cloistered Cleric for travel domain + a turning pool to power it or a dip of spirit lion totem barbarian from complete champion for pounce. Wildshape rangers can also swift hunt rather well, usually taking one level dip in master of many forms for humanoid forms (nice utility to disguise and ****) and shifter's speech (basically necessary for any build that wants to spend all its time in wildshape). You nab yourself a wilding clasped monk's belt and use your BaB to power out manufactured unarmed strikes as a fleshraker (iirc, these attacks also have fleshraker's poison, but could be wrong), then fire off all of your natural attacks. While pouncing to do this in a charge. And also follow with a trip and a grapple for free. And all of the damage here procs skirmish. Generally it's not considered as strong as wildshape ranger into full MoMF + Warshaper since you wind up trading versatility for damage (And not necessarily even that, since you can wildshape into a cryohydra and probably outdamage wildshaping swift hunters).

So yeah, basically swift hunter enables really strong builds for both ranger variants, which are often considered to otherwise be very, very bad weapon damage builds (archers that aren't swift hunters or factotums tend to suck and TWF in general is pretty bad but swift hunting with it is a very nice way to change that), and also enables a strong if not optimal build for wildshape rangers. All in all it's probably the best thing to happen to the scout class and the ranger class, since without it the two classes tend to be pretty mediocre but swift hunters are pretty solidly tier 3 territory.

Edit: It's also worth noting that wilder uses cha as its manifesting stat, not int, letting them multiclass differently to make different (but not necessarily better) SAD builds than a psion would. I've heard people claim Wilder's make better Thrallherds than psions because of that single-attribute dependancy, but I have trouble believing it since I'm not sure that's worth trading away 23 powers known (more for erudite psions compared to Wilders).

[Ethelesin]

RKV just immediatly struck me as "the" way to go if you wanted to play a paladin archetype, sure you loose out on the free mount but, lets face it; it`s not gonna matter how fast you get to the site of the big bads fortress if your just gonna be dead weight, no matter how flashy your moral code or righteous your cause.

I must admit the swift hunter concept intrigues me, i`ve always been a fan of bow builds and my first character ever was a bow wielding drow ranger. (In my defense, i was young, and had never heard of a certain chaotic good scimitar wielding rebel) And was sorta heartbroken when i found out how bad a state 3.5 archery was in, could anyone provide an example build?

Psionics continue to catch my interest, whenever im trying to brew up builds to pass the time the XPH and CPsi just keeps popping back into my head, that being said not sure im too keen on trading powers and feat customization in exchange for a class feature im not sure is a net postive... hmph maybe im just too much of a control freak to leave things to chance but yeah, anyone wanna sweep my feet away from under me with a winning arguement for the case of the wilder?

[Kennisiou]

Standard Swift hunter is either Ranger 16/Scout 4 or Ranger 15/Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1 The build looks something like this usually:

Ranger 1 Point Blank Shot (precise shot if you have bonus feats)
Ranger 2
Ranger 3 Nab another archery feat you qualify for here (far shot, precise shot, etc)
Ranger 4
Ranger 5
Ragner 6 Greater Manyshot or improved rapid shot (depending on if you dip cloistered cleric or not, then depending on if you want to have more power when activating travel devotion or the ability to still skirmish while not travel devoted
Scout 1
Scout 2
Scout 3 Swift Hunter
Cleric 1/Ranger 7 (if cleric nab knowledge devotion and travel devotion)


Then you just take ranger levels until you decide you'd rather have the scout bonus feat (usually for improved initiative) than have Ranger's +1 Base Attack Bonus. You also nab Improved Skirmish at level 12 for more damage. If you take the cleric dip it's important to have 12 ChA since that gets you four turning attempts, meaning you get three uses of travel devotion a day. On these builds Int is also important for knowledge and travel devotion damage. If you're not taking the dip, dex, str, and con are important, wis should be at least 12 at the start with your items/levels taking you to around 14-16, and cha is a pure dump stat.

[SciChronic]

the thing about RKV is that it gives full BAB (which may not matter), Maneuvers (which give combat versatility), and advances your divine spell casting, at max you lose out on 2 divine spellcasting levels, but that still would allow you to get 9th level casting if you are taking a full spellcasting class such as cleric or ur-priest.

Here (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html) is a handbook on swift hunter.

Wilder can be compared to sorcerer where psion can be compared to a wizard. Wilders can do more throughout the early levels through the use of wild surges, but as they level, the psion just becomes stronger.

for astral construct builds, wilders can be very nice, though personally i'd still use a psion.

[Maginomicon]

The Psion "must" specialize in a psionic discipline. Unlike when a wizard specializes, this gives the psion access to learn from an additional set of powers that no one else can access (unless that power also happens to be part of a psionic mantle).

[GreenETC]

The build looks something like this usually:
This surprises me. Usually when I play Swift Hunters, I aim for getting the feat as fast as possible, usually doing it as Scout 1/Ranger 3/Scout 3, getting Swift Hunter at 6 and Improved Skirmish at 7.

[Kennisiou]

This surprises me. Usually when I play Swift Hunters, I aim for getting the feat as fast as possible, usually doing it as Scout 1/Ranger 3/Scout 3, getting Swift Hunter at 6 and Improved Skirmish at 7.

That's not abnormal either and gives better skill points. It's honestly probably better than what I suggested, but the one I suggested is still the build I see most often since people apparently like rushing to get their greater manyshot/greater rapid shot.

[lsfreak]

That's not abnormal either and gives better skill points. It's honestly probably better than what I suggested, but the one I suggested is still the build I see most often since people apparently like rushing to get their greater manyshot/greater rapid shot.

People rush to Greater Rapid Shot? I mean, manyshot yes.

I was rather certain most of the swift hunter builds I'd seen go scout first, and the cleric dip is really soon too. I mean, personally I'd probably go Scout3/Ranger1/Scout1/Cleric1/Ranger15. Qualify for Swift Hunter at 4th level, get it with your last scout level at 5th level, which qualifies you for Improved Skirmish as your 6th level feat (and you get all your devotion feats then too). Any archery feats you picked up that are provided by ranger levels are retrained, or the ranger feats are chaos shuffled into something level-appropriate.

[SciChronic]

iirc only the first attack counts for skirmish damage though, right?

[Greenish]

iirc only the first attack counts for skirmish damage though, right?Haha, no, if you've moved, all attacks get skirmish (unless an ability specifies otherwise, such as Manyshot).

[SciChronic]

Haha, no, if you've moved, all attacks get skirmish (unless an ability specifies otherwise, such as Manyshot).
ah, then

People rush to Greater Rapid Shot? I mean, manyshot yes.
its understandable why people might go for improved rapid shot, it becomes a strong single target removal ability, and reducing the penalties always helps.

also i don't think you can chaos shuffle the combat style feats. you are simply treated "as having" the feat while in light or no armor. you don't actually gain the feat like it says with endurance.

[lsfreak]

its understandable why people might go for improved rapid shot, it becomes a strong single target removal ability, and reducing the penalties always helps.
It's Weapon Focus + Improved Weapon Focus rolled into one, limited by action type instead of weapon (though granted it's an action type you want a lot of). But it's still nothing compared to the improvement you get by upgrading to Greater Manyshot. Maybe retrain a 12th level Improved Precise once you get Improved Precise from ranger levels, but we're talking 15/16th level at that point. There's too many necessary feats that come earlier.


also i don't think you can chaos shuffle the combat style feats. you are simply treated "as having" the feat while in light or no armor. you don't actually gain the feat like it says with endurance.
Yea stupid moment on my part. Retraining the Rapid Shot you picked up at 1st/3rd level, then, once you get Ranger 2, and your 12th level Improved Precise at Ranger 11.

[SciChronic]

Yea stupid moment on my part. Retraining the Rapid Shot you picked up at 1st/3rd level, then, once you get Ranger 2, and your 12th level Improved Precise at Ranger 11.

taking rapid shot at 1st/3rd seems silly to me, considering the build. You'll probably be taking able learner if you're human so you can rank disable device without taxing your other skillmonkey duties, so that's out the window. And you need PBS to get rapid shot so that's your 1st level feat. taking rapid shot at 3rd level means skipping precise shot so you're attacking at a -6 penalty already. Also rapid shot is a full round action and you don't have travel devotion yet so you have to choose between getting 2 attacks or skirmishing (which is doing a higher avg dmg at this point). so unless you're taking flaws, i'd just hold off on rapid shot until you get it via ranger 2.

assuming Scout 3>Ranger 1>Scout 4>CC 1> Ranger X> Something Y, you should have gotten travel devotion at level 6 and rapid shot at level 7. At level 7 your BAB is still 5, meaning before then it would have been fine to move>standard attack and you wouldn't be sacrificing anything in doing so and get skirmishes in return. Now that you're level 7 with rapid shot and travel devotion you can start move>full attacking.

what are your thoughts on having total class levels being Scout 4/Ranger 13/ CC 1/Swordsage 2? Past 17 effective scout/ranger levels you dont gain more skirmish damage or favored enemies, all you'd get is 1 AC and the final favored enemy is locked off due to the CC level. giving you 2 levels to mess around with. I'm always partial to the late-game swordsage dip on skillmonkeys for the extra utility boosts. You can even take the Child of Shadow stance and gain concealment whenever skirmish which is much better than 1 AC

[SassyQuatch]

Wilders were designed to be Psions that suck. Take a gamble that after your handful of powers are marginally boosted that you won't be crippled. Wooo....

Double their powers known and I might consider the class, or recommend it to a player for their build. Otherwise the response will always be "play a Psion and fluff the rest".

[lsfreak]

taking rapid shot at 1st/3rd seems silly to me, considering the build.
Depends on the level. That was, in part, another stupid moment (I think my nap earlier did more harm that good). But if your damage is being boosted by something, or multiple somethings, rapid shotting may well be giving you more damage than skirmishing until you get the 2d6/+1 skirmish at 5th level. Also means you can start rapid shot-skirmishing at 6th instead of 7th level, though it's not a huge difference.


You'll probably be taking able learner if you're human so you can rank disable device without taxing your other skillmonkey duties, so that's out the window.
More than the other stuff that's been mentioned, this is very DM-dependent. The presence of traps, and moreso of traps that can't be defeated except by Disable Device, swings widely by DM. But certainly the need for any role that has to be filled by you beyond damage-dealing is going to impact your feat selection; personally more than Able Learner I'd be missing Darkstalker for... well... doing the class name, scouting, which in the games I've played has been a more important role than trap-disabler.


And you need PBS to get rapid shot so that's your 1st level feat
Well, you need it anyways since Precise Shot requires it, and in the hypothetical we're sort-of talking about, Improved Rapid Shot requires it as well.


so unless you're taking flaws, i'd just hold off on rapid shot until you get it via ranger 2.
Agreed depending on situation. If I had to skillmonkey and/or had no bard giving me +2 damage from level one, absolutely.


what are your thoughts on having total class levels being Scout 4/Ranger 13/ CC 1/Swordsage 2?
My one concern would be spells. 14th level of ranger nets you 4th level spells, and 15th level gives you your first "real" spell slot of it. Now, except for freedom of movement 4th level ranger spells aren't all that great, but some of the 3rd level ones and the 4th level wizard spells from Sword of the Arcane Order are. Normally if I was playing a game long enough to consider finishing with two levels of ranger or swordsage, I'd also consider taking swordsage much earlier than that (you want your 20% miss chance much earlier than 19th level). But considering the poor synergy between swordsage maneuvers and a ranged swift hunter (few if any ranged strikes, conflict between Travel Devotion and any counters/boosts) I'd probably just stick out with ranger 2 on a ranged build. Especially given the ability to get the stance in item form for all of 3000gp. A melee build maybe, but I don't play games that reach that level so I can't really comment (really I'm of the belief that the game once 9ths are reached is nearly as DM-dependent as epic, so you can only talk about it in a rather broad an non-specific fashion without knowing how the DM handles things at that level).

[SciChronic]

the 2 level of sword sage gives maneuver options like turning invisible for a the whole round regardless of attacks (the maneuver doesn't state "as invisiblity"), teleporting 30 ft and other boosts/counters.

i can see your point about the spells, like freedom of movement and SNA IV for the unicorn healing, but i'd hope that by that level you have freedom armor and a better healer

i managed to fit in darkstalker at level 9, content to wait for manyshot at Ranger 6 (CL11) making my CL12 feat greater manyshot since i would just use rapid shot skirmishes for more damage anyway.