[3.X] Question: Master of Many Forms, worth?

[Yael]

So, I know that taking this class will delay your spellcasting by every level you take (1-10). But I've been seeing that the bonus granted by the PrC is quite good (I mean, if you really want to speciallize into wild shape).

This class offers the Shapeshifter's Speech (which solves the comunication problems), and even if your MoMF levels don't allow more hours per day with your wild shape on, maybe the extra uses per day would be worth that time (even though you don't get to be shaped more time than a standard druid)? Also, you get to the forms earlier (such as plant, or elemental).

If this class is worth, is there any way to optimize it? Maybe Druid Avenger? And some rage feats (Reckless Rage)? What do teh playgrounders think about the MoMF class, and how would you make it worth for the spells?

[MeeposFire]

Wild shape ranger is best. You get BAB and lose nothing of worth but gain a lot. As a druid you always will feel like you lost out by taking that class but the wild ranger is perfect especially if you like warshaper or natures warrior.

[Kaje]

Wild Shape Ranger 5 / MoMF 3 / Warshaper 5 / MoMF 7 really is amazing. Feel free to turn into different creature every 6 seconds all day long.

[MeeposFire]

Wild Shape Ranger 5 / MoMF 3 / Warshaper 5 / MoMF 7 really is amazing. Feel free to turn into different creature every 6 seconds all day long.

To make use of that you could pick up some wild feats to use up your many uses of wild shape that you are otherwise not likely to use. I forget if there are any that are really worth it. Pounce maybe if you otherwise pick a creature that does not get it?

[Grod_The_Giant]

To make use of that you could pick up some wild feats to use up your many uses of wild shape that you are otherwise not likely to use. I forget if there are any that are really worth it. Pounce maybe if you otherwise pick a creature that does not get it?
Flight is always good. I had a player whose main combat form was a flying giant octopus.

[eggynack]

Master of many forms is not better than a straight druid, pretty much ever. A druid has spells, and MoMF does not have spells, and that's all of it. However, it is equally as good as a master of many forms. It's basically just its own thing, separate from just being a druid. Going into MoMF through wild shape ranger isn't particularly better, from a mechanical perspective, but it feels better, and that makes it seem actually better. As for pounce, you can pick that up through lion of talisid, if you are so inclined. So, yeah. Master of many forms is great if you want to wild shape, and less great if you want to be a tier one super-being. It's not really my style, but to each his own.

[Turk Mannion]

I am currently a Druid 9/MMF 2 and loving it. I spend most combats in cave troll form, buffed by my druid spells. I am halfway to MMF 3, at which time war troll with a Goliath great hammer will be the combat form of choice. I will then have to decide between leveling as druid for the spells or war shaper for the nice abilities. Highly recommended for what it is.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As many have already said, Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) is what you want to start out with if making a dedicated shaper going into MoMF. I'd try to get to MoMF 7 as quickly as possible, then start taking Warshaper afterward, but never take the fifth level of Warshaper.

[eggynack]

As many have already said, Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) is what you want to start out with if making a dedicated shaper going into MoMF. I'd try to get to MoMF 7 as quickly as possible, then start taking Warshaper afterward, but never take the fifth level of Warshaper.
I don't really see why, outside of how bad the transition from druid to MoMF feels. You get a couple more skill points, a couple of mediocre abilities, and a better BAB, and in return you lose a ton of reasonable utility spells, and a far superior animal companion. It's a bit of a toss up, but I wouldn't call it significantly advantageous to enter as a ranger.

[bekeleven]

I don't really see why, outside of how bad the transition from druid to MoMF feels. You get a couple more skill points, a couple of mediocre abilities, and a better BAB, and in return you lose a ton of reasonable utility spells, and a far superior animal companion. It's a bit of a toss up, but I wouldn't call it significantly advantageous to enter as a ranger.

Yep. The reason people go Ranger into MoMF is because it feels like an upgrade instead of a downgrade (because that's what it is). 5 levels of druid > 5 levels of ranger any day, especially in a build not reliant on iterative attacks. Druid has the 5th strongest spell list in the game, after Sorc, Wiz, Archivist and (probably) Cleric.

Druid is tier 1, while ranger is tier 3. A MoMF is high tier 3 and can edge into tier 2 using a number of dirty tricks (Dire Tortoise, Shaedling, Sarkith Thrane, Ushemoi, Dire Elephant, Dusk Giant, Nagahydra, Gorynych, Darktentacles, and Crystalline Troll to name a few). Then add on Frozen/Exalted Wild Shape and the whole thing gets rather silly. For optimizing druid abilities after classing out, consider natural bond or practiced spellcaster.

[NeoPhoenix0]

yes, druid is strictly better than wild shape ranger. Even if you take master of many forms as soon as possible, access to level 1, 2, and 3 druid spells blows anything you get from wild shape ranger out of the water.

[Twilightwyrm]

yes, druid is strictly better than wild shape ranger. Even if you take master of many forms as soon as possible, access to level 1, 2, and 3 druid spells blows anything you get from wild shape ranger out of the water.

That's a rather...bold claim. Do you mean in terms of just the Wildshape Ranger class, or are we including the abilities gained by Master of Many Forms?

[bekeleven]

That's a rather...bold claim. Do you mean in terms of just the Wildshape Ranger class, or are we including the abilities gained by Master of Many Forms?

Neo is talking about using it as entry to MoMF.

[eggynack]

That's a rather...bold claim. Do you mean in terms of just the Wildshape Ranger class, or are we including the abilities gained by Master of Many Forms?
I think he was referring to what I was referring to. A druid going into MoMF can do more than a wild shape ranger going into MoMF. Straight druids are also much better than wild shape ranger/MoMF's, though I always hesitate to toss out things like strictly better. It has connotations and stuff.

[Aliek]

It is a clear downgrade from druid, that's for sure.
Thing is, if your concept is a beastly shapeshifter, master of many forms/warshaper is actually a very solid choice.

What I like about MoMF is, it's one of those few PrCs where, tough it's a clear decrease in power in most areas, you do become better at what you intend to do - Shapeshift for victory.
A worthy trade off? Surely not. Flavorful mechanics which won't let you end up gimped, even if you lost power? That's where it's at.

[Twilightwyrm]

I think he was referring to what I was referring to. A druid going into MoMF can do more than a wild shape ranger going into MoMF. Straight druids are also much better than wild shape ranger/MoMF's, though I always hesitate to toss out things like strictly better. It has connotations and stuff.
Alright, if that is the case, that makes more sense. I'm still not sure it is absolutely true, but it seems more legitimate.

[eggynack]

Alright, if that is the case, that makes more sense. I'm still not sure it is absolutely true, but it seems more legitimate.
It's close enough to absolutely true, I think. Just consider some of the long duration spells you get access to from five levels of druid. For a quick list, you get snowsight, heart of air, luminous armor, obscuring snow, primal hunter, wild instincts, heart of water, greater magic fang, primal instinct, scales of the sealord, and frigging venomfire. That's just a compilation of the reasonable buffs that you can use, assuming that you don't have natural spell. I'm not even listing all of the long duration buffs, though longstrider might actually deserve a slot.

Moreover you add a ton of utility options for out of combat use, like omen of peril, spider hand, wood wose, whispering flame, circle dance, favorable wind, path of the exalted, plant growth, weather eye, and whispering sand. If you add in natural spell, the druid levels become even better, because there are some spells, particularly the ones with quick casting times, that basically never get bad. Here, you get spells like blockade, instant of power, nature's favor, friendly fire, and best of all, alter fortune. Those are just a few swift or immediate action ones. All of these spells I've listed are spells that mostly never really go bad, and that don't interfere with your functioning as an MoMF at all. On top of that, you get a significantly better animal companion, which is helpful at the levels where wild shape rangers just spend their time being useless. If you haven't noticed by this point, druids are pretty frigging sweet.

[Grod_The_Giant]

then start taking Warshaper afterward, but never take the fifth level of Warshaper.
Why? Multimorph means your Wild Shape ir more-or-less at-will, especially once you start taking MoMF and can shift into different humanoids if you need to look like an intelligent creature.

[Red Fel]

If you really want a class that advances Wild Shape while advancing spellcasting as well, why not go Moonspeaker? It advances spellcasting 12/12 levels, and you can treat your Moonspeaker levels as Druid levels for Wild Shape (or Moonspeaker -4 if you already have Wild Shape). Additionally, it allows you to treat any item creation, metamagic, or wild feats as shifter feats, which really boosts your shifter abilities, and it gives a massive boost to your summoning spells.

[Chronos]

I would still say that a ranger/MoMF is better than a druid/MoMF. Either way, your spellcasting and animal companion are going to be negligible by level 15, but your BAB, skills, and Track feat won't be, at least not completely.

Either is, of course, weaker than a straight druid, but that's a different matter.

[eggynack]

I would still say that a ranger/MoMF is better than a druid/MoMF. Either way, your spellcasting and animal companion are going to be negligible by level 15, but your BAB, skills, and Track feat won't be, at least not completely.
I disagree. That list of spells I cited is far from negligible at level 15. Assuming a wisdom of 16, which is trivial by level 15, you get 4 firsts, 3 seconds, and 2 thirds. So, let's start actually preparing stuff. I'm going to assume no natural spell, because I don't want more investment into this stuff than I need. So, let's say we put heart of water into one of the third level slots, and heart of air into one of the seconds, and maybe toss luminous armor there as well. You're already packing a highly efficient FoM effect, light fortification, effective swimming, some heart of air stuff, and armor that's significantly better than you'd get otherwise because some wild shape forms get high dexterity.

After that, I'll add primal instinct as the second third level spell, and maybe add primal hunter for the uncanny dodge effect. These spells barely count against spells/day if you do something as simple as pick up a lesser metamagic rod of extend, and you should. That's +5 initiative over just about anything the ranger is bringing to the table, and it costs just about nothing. As firsts, you can prep wood wose, omen of peril, and then maybe two BFC's, cause sometimes that stuff is useful, even at high level. This is all just a basic level of stuff that you get, and it can be altered on a daily basis, and it gets even better with natural spell. You get access to a significant amount of out of combat ability beyond your ranger brethren, as well as some numerical power that's probably much better than what a ranger gets. Also, a riding dog gets track for free, so that's not a big deal. So, yeah, not negligible at all.

[SimonMoon6]

Personally, I think MoMF just isn't worth it without the early entry trick (Mulhorandi divine minion). Being a druid is just so much better than giving up spellcasting to be a slightly better wildshaper. Or just be a wizard and get polymorph... and the entire wizard spell list.

But I do like the divine minion trick. The only problem is that you end up with a wildshaper who can't turn into most animals, which is kind of weird. Still, being able to change into giants (of up to 13 HD) at ECL 4 is still pretty slick.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I like master of many forms. The main reason i like it is turning into things like the sea drake or a roc.

Also, you still count as humanoid so I think enlarge person still works on you. Regular druids can't become colossal pre-epic and i think it is awesome.

Finally, yes saying druid entry is better than wild shape ranger entry is a bold claim, but I think it is true. Yes the ranger gets more skills than the druid, that is the main area where ranger entry is superior. However, I think those skill points, the +1 BAB, and track feat are worth those powerful utility spells, like stone shape. Plus, your animal companion can have the track feat if you want to get one with it, or you or anyone else in the party can take it.

[eggynack]

I like master of many forms. The main reason i like it is turning into things like the sea drake or a roc.

You can technically become a roc as a straight druid pre-epic. The way you accomplish that is through megalodon empowerment (Storm, 118), which enables you to take animal forms one size above normal. It comes online at level 15, at the same time as an MoMF would be gaining the same ability, though the high HD of the roc means that you'll have to wait in either case, at least without items. You lose spellcasting through the spell, though that's not really a problem for the comparison, because you'd be losing that casting anyway. All that means is that while you can become a roc with the same efficiency as you otherwise could, you probably shouldn't.

[bekeleven]

Personally, I think MoMF just isn't worth it without the early entry trick (Mulhorandi divine minion). Being a druid is just so much better than giving up spellcasting to be a slightly better wildshaper. Or just be a wizard and get polymorph... and the entire wizard spell list.

But I do like the divine minion trick. The only problem is that you end up with a wildshaper who can't turn into most animals, which is kind of weird. Still, being able to change into giants (of up to 13 HD) at ECL 4 is still pretty slick.

The other problem with the divine minion trick, I would argue, is that it's illegal. And, if legal, undeniably overpowered. If Divine Minion qualification is in play, you can become a war troll at ECL 4. 31 Str, 16 Dex, 29 Con, 2 Claws 1D8+10, Bite 1D6+5, 40ft speed, 14 Natural Armor, Fort save or daze on every attack. And that's not even one of the more powerful options.


I like master of many forms. The main reason i like it is turning into things like the sea drake or a roc.

Also, you still count as humanoid so I think enlarge person still works on you. Regular druids can't become colossal pre-epic and i think it is awesome.

Finally, yes saying druid entry is better than wild shape ranger entry is a bold claim, but I think it is true. Yes the ranger gets more skills than the druid, that is the main area where ranger entry is superior. However, I think those skill points, the +1 BAB, and track feat are worth those powerful utility spells, like stone shape. Plus, your animal companion can have the track feat if you want to get one with it, or you or anyone else in the party can take it.

Wild shape never changes type or subtype (except for granting the aquatic subtype). There's also a spell that enlarges wild shape. MoMF can't become Colossal pre-epic in any way that a druid can't.


It comes online at level 15, at the same time as an MoMF would be gaining the same ability, though the high HD of the roc means that you'll have to wait in either case, at least without items.
There's a pair of magical items that buff your effective wild shape HD by 5. Largely required gear for a MoMF. At least not one cheesing his way into the class early.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Wild shape never changes type or subtype (except for granting the aquatic subtype). There's also a spell that enlarges wild shape. MoMF can't become Colossal pre-epic in any way that a druid can't.

How is a straight druid becoming colossal, pre-epic?

[eggynack]

There's a pair of magical items that buff your effective wild shape HD by 5. Largely required gear for a MoMF. At least not one cheesing his way into the class early.
True, and also to druids. Wild shape amulets are pretty crazy expensive though.

How is a straight druid becoming colossal, pre-epic?
How is an MoMF?

[Karnith]

How is an MoMF?
An Old (or older) Dragonwrought Kobold Druid 5/MoMF 10 qualifies for Colossal Wild Shape, I believe.

[NeoPhoenix0]

How is an MoMF?

Enlarge person on a gargantuan form.

[eggynack]

An Old (or older) Dragonwrought Kobold Druid 5/MoMF 10 qualifies for Colossal Wild Shape, I believe.
Yeah, that does sound like it works. However, if you're getting epic feats anyway, then isn't it possible for druids to just pick up both gargantuan and colossal? The feats could be tricky, but that doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem when you're breaking out cheese like that.

Edit:
Enlarge person on a gargantuan form.
What's stopping a druid from doing that? It's not like you're getting enlarge person from your personal spell supply, and megalodon empowerment will get the size you need. Also, druids actually can get themselves to that size natively, unlike MoMF's, by using animal growth on themselves after using aspect of the wolf.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Edit:
What's stopping a druid from doing that? It's not like you're getting enlarge person from your personal spell supply, and megalodon empowerment will get the size you need. Also, druids actually can get themselves to that size natively, unlike MoMF's, by using animal growth on themselves after using aspect of the wolf.

Megalodon empowerment and enlarge person seems sketchy, but i guess if you change into a new for you aren't benefiting from the enlargement aspect of it so you could argue enlarge person works.

For a druid doing it by themselves, aspect of the wolf + animal growth = large, and you can't use animal growth on yourself after using megalodon empowerment.

[eggynack]

For a druid doing it by themselves, aspect of the wolf + animal growth = large, and you can't use animal growth on yourself after using megalodon empowerment.
I've often heard it argued that the size increase from animal growth sticks around when you change forms, primarily because it's a magical effect that's separate from your person, and it just makes you one size larger.

[ahenobarbi]

I think Ranger actually is a better entry point for Master of Many Forms. With Wilshape Ranger and mystic Ranger you actually get comparative spells but get more BAB, skills and save a feat.

You miss on Animal Companion but it doesn't really matter since the prestige class doesn't progress it.

[eggynack]

I think Ranger actually is a better entry point for Master of Many Forms. With Wilshape Ranger and mystic Ranger you actually get comparative spells but get more BAB, skills and save a feat.

You miss on Animal Companion but it doesn't really matter since the prestige class doesn't progress it.
That is pretty good, though I'm not sure that it's better than what's offered by a druid. The list cuts out at second level spells, instead of third, and the list is significantly less broad, especially if you consider splat book stuff. It's a meaningful pair of differences, though the comparison is certainly closer.

[bekeleven]

I think Ranger actually is a better entry point for Master of Many Forms. With Wilshape Ranger and mystic Ranger you actually get comparative spells but get more BAB, skills and save a feat.

You miss on Animal Companion but it doesn't really matter since the prestige class doesn't progress it.

Mystic ranger is actually a lot closer to druid in power level. It's basically trading some proficiencies (who cares?), animal companion and 2nd favored enemy (you'll miss this if you chose human or arcanist for your first) for decent spellcasting, and you retain full BAB. You end with 2+Bonus 2nd level ranger spells, meaning things like ability buffs, camouflage, movement boosts (burrow speeds, move on snow, etc), pounce, and +5 Init.

Still not as good as druid, I think, but +2 BAB and skills help make up for the spell difference once it's smaller.

[Nihilarian]

As long as you don't mind coming online a bit later, the Shapeshifter PrC is an excellent entry into Master of Many Forms. It can be taken by any spellcaster or full BAB warrior class (Warshaper gets Concentration as a class skill and requires +4 BAB and shape changer subtype).

You need Oriental Adventures and Dragon Magazine 318, though, as well as Complete Warrior if you want Warshaper.