Cthulhu Challenge

[Luciandevine]

Alright guys, my co-dm and I love a good challenge, so we're throwing one out there for you. We're looking for characters that can stand against and defeat the mighty Cthulhu p. 136 of Bestiary 4.. The rules are as follows.

1) Pathfinder books only, no 3.5, 3.0, Quintessentials, or 3rd party. So basically, hard cover official Pathfinder books only.

2) Characters must use the point buy system (epic). So 25 points with which to buy stats.

3) Character can be no higher than level 30.

4) Character can be no higher than Mythic Tier 10.

5) Leadership is allowed, primarily because Cthulhu is allowed to use his summon ability, and whatever he summons is allowed to use whatever abilities are available to them, and so on.

6) Gold for a level 30 character is 4,300,000, as per the ELH, as there is no other reliable source. However, for leveling beyond level 20, use the rules described on page 406 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Similarly, though you have epic gold, since Cthulhu wasn't built with epic spells or equipment in mind, nothing else from the ELH is allowed, including epic spell slots. Artifacts that aren't your mythic legendary item are also banned.

7) Both the character in question and Cthulhu know the fight is coming, and can thus be prepared (metagamed) against each other. So Cthulhu won't "waste" a turn using Dream of Madness on you if you're immune to mind-effecting effects, and so on. We also prefer that whomever is fighting as Cthulhu be suitably confident, skilled, and merciless in their use of him and whatever he summons. Open rolls with no punches pulled.

8) The fight takes place on an impossibly long and wide stretch of open terrain, and the combatants start at a distance of 1d6X100 feet apart.

9) Final note. Remember that when I say defeat Cthulhu, I mean dropping him once, thus forcing him to reform while staggered, and dropping him again while he's staggered, forcing him to return to his tomb in R'lyeh. You do NOT however, have to finish off everything that Cthulhu summons or the things that those summons might Gate in or summon themselves.

I'm almost certain that I've missed something, so by all means ask if you have any further questions. Should you defeat the mighty Cthulhu, we ask that you humbly tell us what kind of character and build you used to do so :). We are particularly interested in melee characters that manage the task, though spell casters are also naturally allowed.

[Luciandevine]

Edited the original post to remind potential challengers what the true meaning of defeat, in this case is.

[Benthesquid]

Monster levels and templates? Offhand, being a vampire seems like a good start (immunity to mind affecting spells, fear effects, and death effects takes care of a lot of Cthulhu's powers).

[turkishproverb]

I'm almost certain that I've missed something, so by all means ask if you have any further questions. Should you defeat the mighty Cthulhu, we ask that you humbly tell us what kind of character and build you used to do so :). We are particularly interested in melee characters that manage the task, though spell casters are also naturally allowed.

Fight's over before it begins, given Pathfinder made casters even more broken.

[AuraTwilight]

Even ignoring casters, I just took a look at Cthulhu. Holy crap, is he underpowered for his CR. The only real curveball is his immortality, but PERMANENTLY defeating him wasn't part of the challenge, right?

Heck, give me a 30 level melee character with sufficiently high Spell Resistance and Mind-Affecting immunity and the battle's just a matter of HP attrition.

Also, how the hell is Hastur of a lower CR? He has a Wish as an at-will spell-like ability.

[Benthesquid]

Fight's over before it begins, given Pathfinder made casters even more broken.

Perhaps- (though I'm not certain- most of the high end optimization for wizards seems to involve Ice Assassins at one point or another, and these do not exist in Pathfinder). On the other hand, they also gave Cthulhu Gate, Wish, SR 41, and a wide range of immunities.

(The Cthulhu in question (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/great-old-one-cthulhu)).

I'm not questioning that a caster of group of casters could beat him, especially by level thirty, but I'd like to see an actual build.

[Spuddles]

Fight's over before it begins, given Pathfinder made casters even more broken.

No it didnt. People keep claiming this, but all they can show me is a couple weaksauce mailman build, a quasi-rainbow warsnake, and that's... about it.

Can you save game crystal? Nanobot swarm? Chaingate? Mindrape? Shaechange to get free wishes? Gain immunity to all damage forever? Make an exact copy of another creature? Time travel? Be invisible, incorporeal, and undetectable to anything but truesight all day?

Spells got nerfed, hard, in PF. There also hasnt been enough time for power creep to happen. While your average player may find that the optimization floor for casters has gone up, the roof has just about caved in.

[Luciandevine]

Monster levels and templates? Offhand, being a vampire seems like a good start (immunity to mind affecting spells, fear effects, and death effects takes care of a lot of Cthulhu's powers).

No monster levels or templates.

[Luciandevine]

Also a note to all interested. I did say character, NOT group. You and your chort (if you have one) against Cthulhu and whatever he summons.

[Luciandevine]

Even ignoring casters, I just took a look at Cthulhu. Holy crap, is he underpowered for his CR. The only real curveball is his immortality, but PERMANENTLY defeating him wasn't part of the challenge, right?

Heck, give me a 30 level melee character with sufficiently high Spell Resistance and Mind-Affecting immunity and the battle's just a matter of HP attrition.

Also, how the hell is Hastur of a lower CR? He has a Wish as an at-will spell-like ability.

Permanently defeating Cthulhu is not part of the challenge, however, you do have to handle the part of his Immortality feature. So when you drop him the first time, the challenge is not over. When he comes back, you have to finish him off while he is staggered, thus sending him back to his tomb in R'lyeh.

[Benthesquid]

First off, I understand that it's generally preferred by the moderators if you avoid double or triple posting. If you want to quote multiple people at once, you can hit the little "+ symbol at the bottom of posts, and whoever you've designated that way will be quoted in your next post.

Anyways, not being to be a vampire does make this a bit harder. Let me see if I can come up with a list of what I need first. These are the ones to ensure, insofar as is possible, that I always get the desired result, regardless of die roll. Slightly lower modifiers still leave victory possible, but ever less certain.

1. +35, or as close as possible initiative and the ability to Cast Dimensional Anchor, or ability to cast Dimensional Anchor as an immediate action.
2. Either True Seeing always on, or the ability to turn it on by the time I cast Dimensional Anchor.
3. Either immunity to Mind Affecting Effects, or a +39 Will Save

There, that should get me through the first round. More to follow.

Let's see, if I'm an intelligently and ruthlessly played Cthulhu, then the first thing I do with my thirty-one intelligence when facing some punk adventurer on an impossibly vast empty plane is Greater Teleport a long distance away (like, solar systems) away. Then I burn a use of Gate, to get myself to another Plane, Astral Project myself, and my Astral self returns to the vast empty plain plane. If I as Cthulhu don't have a time limit, I'll probably instead use Wish to duplicate the effects of Create Demiplane, wait there for a day to recharge my SLAs, and then Astral Project from there.

However, as a player allowed to metagame, I know that Cthulhu will attempt this, and therefore I will use some of my vast wealth to prevent him from attempting this. Therefore, the first two components of my build will be the ability to beat Cthulhu in initiative (requiring a +35 to always beat his +15), the ability to cast Dimensional Anchor, and the ability to hit Cthulhu with a ranged touch attack.

To consistently be able to hit him, I'll need to be able to negate his fifty percent miss chance against all attacks. This requires me to have True Seeing either always on, or be able to activate it and cast Dimensional Anchor in the same round. In addition, I'll need either to be able to consistently make a DC 40 Will save or be immune to mind affecting effects.

Edit: I forgot a couple factors. A, if I start more than four hundred feet from Cthulhu, (which there is a 1/3 chance I will), I need to be able to close the distance in the first round to hit him with Dimensional Anchor. B, I need to be able to overcome his spell resistance.

[Luciandevine]

That is my bad on that, I will admit. I was answering each one in turn, since they each required a seperate thought process, lol. I defeated Cthulhu with a level 40 character, and now I'm going to try a level 30. It's one thing to make a character, but it's another to have to lay out rules for a challenge for other people, lol. So I do apologize for that.

And yes, you are more or less correct. What I was referring to specifically though, were the battle itself. The ability to summon 2d4 Star Spawn, which can each Gate in a Balor, which can each summon a Marilith or some other CR 19 or less demon ends up being a very sizable army of creatures to deal with, lol.

[Psyren]

A level 30 PF character can still chain-gate Solars (and even control them, at such a high level) - so just do that. Furthermore, Solars are immune to the Overwhelming Mind of his starspawn, and can make short work of them in battle.

Note however that it is harder in PF to become outright immune to mind-affecting.

[Alleran]

A powered up Mythic Augmented Channel Power Meteor Swarm that's been Maximised and Empowered? He only has 774 HP.

- Range of 1200 feet before CL boosters are taken into account.
- 6d10 bludgeoning per meteor.
- 10d10 fire per meteor.
- Channel Power adds +3d10 bludgeoning and +5d10 fire to each.
- Maximise means all the above is at full, for 960 damage (660 if you save against the fire damage, but it still ignores any resistance/immunity).
- Empowered adds an additional +3d10 bludgeoning and +5d10 fire per meteor.

You'd need to use Arcane Metamastery to apply Empower spell metamagic without increasing the spell level, along with a metamagic rod of Maximise. To make the save as difficult to beat as possible:

- 18 INT base
- +2/+4 racial (latter only if you can get a Peri-blooded aasimar with the alternate racial bonus of an additional +2 INT)
- +5 level
- +5 inherent
- +6 enhancement
- +10 mythic
- +3 age

That's a +19/+20 boost to the save DCs from INT. Channel Power is a -2 for Cthulhu, Potent is another -2. If you take Spell Focus in Evocation and then get Mythic Spell Focus, that's another +2 and the target rolls twice, taking the lower result. So Cthulhu already needs a 16 or better on his roll to beat the Reflex DC, and he still has to roll twice and take the lower. Finally, get Spell Perfection for Meteor Swarm, and any feat that allows you to add a numerical bonus to the spell (i.e. the Spell Focus and Mythic Spell Focus), those get doubled to +4. He needs an 18+ now. If you used Eldritch Heritage feats to get that Arcane School bonus from the Arcane bloodline, the +2 from that would also apply to Meteor Swarm, meaning Cthulhu is saving on a natural 20 and needs to roll two of them in a row in order to not take full damage. Although even with the half damage, there are still good odds that he's going to go down anyway.

When he pops back up with the staggered condition, just whack him with another one.

And yeah, I know that this is blasting and requires a 20th level Tier 10 blaster, but can anybody see any immediate holes?

[Psyren]

@ Alleran: you're outside of his aura so that's good. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately?), you'd also be outside true seeing range and therefore have his miss chance to contend with. Combined with his high-ish touch AC and your extreme range, this makes the bludgeoning damage not a sure thing. Also, his DR and fire resistance will apply to each meteor, plus he can surge his saves, or use Mythic Wish to simply make himself roll a natural 20. You don't appear to have a defense against his mental abilities, which means if you fail to 1-round him he will likely teleport on top of you and force several saves.

Personally I would consider optimizing force damage as he doesn't seem to have any defenses against that. It will also help if he attempts to retreat to the Ethereal Plane.

[Alleran]

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately?), you'd also be outside true seeing range and therefore have his miss chance to contend with. Combined with his high-ish touch AC and your extreme range, this makes the bludgeoning damage not a sure thing.
The miss chance is an issue. Although in the opening post, it's said that you start 1d6x100 apart (so anywhere from 100 to 600 feet). The 1200 foot thing is just a note on the maximum range.


Also, his DR and fire resistance will apply to each meteor...
That's not a problem. An augmented Meteor Swarm ignores all fire resistance and immunity possessed by the target. Channel Power does the same sort of thing (unless the target is explicitly immune to a particular spell/type of magic), and also allows it to instantly break through his SR (why I didn't bother with a CL check).


...or use Mythic Wish to simply make himself roll a natural 20.
That's partly why I'm making him do it twice. He could make one of them come up as a natural 20, but he still has to roll again anyway and then pick whichever is lower. Unless he can get a second one (admittedly statistically easier), he'll take the full damage, and even half-damage still has a good chance of putting him down.


You don't appear to have a defense against his mental abilities...
Indeed I don't. That's primarily because I was solely looking at just seeing if you can knock his HP down with a Win Initiative And Obliterate in one round.

Winning Initiative isn't hard. Assuming DEX 18 (start at a 13 and count Wish/Tomes, plus either the arcane discovery or mythic ability that stops physical scores from dropping with age), that's +4, Improved Initiative for +4, Mythic Improved Initiative for +10, Amazing Initiative for +10, and burn 1 Mythic Power for an auto-20. That's a +48 total.

[Psyren]

It's worth noting though that Cthulhu himself is MR 10. This means that 11 mythic abilities need to be added to his statblock.

[Alleran]

It's worth noting though that Cthulhu himself is MR 10. This means that 11 mythic abilities need to be added to his statblock.
I think that comes in under his Great Old One subtype, which grants him 10/day Mythic Power and means he counts as a MR 10 creature. He isn't actually one, he's just treated as one for spells/effects that require a specific rank for determining what they do.

[Honest Tiefling]

A level 30 PF character can still chain-gate Solars (and even control them, at such a high level) - so just do that.

Does one really need to convince Solars to preserve the Prime Material by not letting Cthulhu stomp around it breaking everything, or do they just need to control the Solars to stop them from running away in fear?

[Psyren]

I think that comes in under his Great Old One subtype, which grants him 10/day Mythic Power and means he counts as a MR 10 creature. He isn't actually one, he's just treated as one for spells/effects that require a specific rank for determining what they do.

Except it doesn't say "counts as rank 10 for {purpose.}" He simply counts as rank 10 mythic, so without anything being specified, he gets all the benefits associated with that rank.


Does one really need to convince Solars to preserve the Prime Material by not letting Cthulhu stomp around it breaking everything, or do they just need to control the Solars to stop them from running away in fear?

Yes.

[Alleran]

Except it doesn't say "counts as rank 10 for {purpose.}" He simply counts as rank 10 mythic, so without anything being specified, he gets all the benefits associated with that rank.
If that were the case then every mythic creature in B4, including the ones with actual mythic ranks (e.g. Colossi) rather than a subtype (e.g. Great Old One, Demon Lord), would be missing all their mythic abilities. I don't buy it.

[Psyren]

If that were the case then every mythic creature in B4, including the ones with actual mythic ranks (e.g. Colossi) rather than a subtype (e.g. Great Old One, Demon Lord), would be missing all their mythic abilities. I don't buy it.

How does that follow? The ones with mythic abilities in their statblock would obviously keep them.

Mythic rules clearly state that mythic subtyped monsters gain 1+rank abilities.

[Drachasor]

Hmm..

Can't you just craft 3 or so Stone Colossi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/colossus/colossus-stone) and Adamantine Golems (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-adamantine)? Antimagic field shuts down most of his abilities -- I'm assuming it shuts down his ability to fly, but I'm not sure. I thought there was some general rule on figuring out when flying was magical in nature, but I can't seem to find it.

Btw, a Scarab of Protection will block 12 rounds of Cthulu's Unspeakable Presence (since it is a death and fear effect). Buy a few and keep the extra in a haversack.

[Alleran]

How does that follow? The ones with mythic abilities in their statblock would obviously keep them.
Compare the various MR'd creatures in B4 to their statblocks. For example, the Iron Colossus is MR 8, so by your argument it needs to have nine mythic abilities. Where are they?

Or what about Bokrug? He's a GOO, but has no mythic feats (neither do Cthulhu or Hastur, for that matter, so they obviously don't get full MR benefits) and no mythic abilities.


Mythic rules clearly state that mythic subtyped monsters gain 1+rank abilities.
None of the three GOO statblocks include the mythic subtype.

[kardar233]

I remember someone posting a PF build that used a spell (a geyser of some sort, if I recall correctly) plus metamagics that could be used to Daze-lock a single target, and as Cthulhu isn't immune to Daze (that I can see) that should work, especially as that build wasn't Epic or Mythic.

[Drachasor]

I remember someone posting a PF build that used a spell (a geyser of some sort, if I recall correctly) plus metamagics that could be used to Daze-lock a single target, and as Cthulhu isn't immune to Daze (that I can see) that should work, especially as that build wasn't Epic or Mythic.

Yeah, it is Geyser (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/geyser) using http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic.

I've not looked at Mythic rules. How high can you pump your DC?
Hmm, normally you have +4 (Spell Perfection with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus), +14 (20 int, +5 inherent, +7 from levels, +6 from an item). That's a DC of 28 + Spell Level. Need another 10-20 points to have a decent shot. Heightened to 9th level helps some. That's 37 verses Cthulu's +29 Reflex. Proper Specialization (Diviner or Void) could get you another +2 (effectively).

Hmm, another +10 bonus from Mythic, gives you a DC of 47. Very hard for Cthulu to beat that. Good idea to toss on some other minor bits of pain into there if you can manage them with a move or swift action just to help make sure he stays stunned. The weakness of Geyser is that the duration is Concentration.

[Alleran]

Yeah, it is Geyser (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/geyser) using http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic.

I've not looked at Mythic rules. How high can you pump your DC?

A fair bit.

Include Mythic Spell Focus for another +1 and two Eldritch Heritage (Eldritch Heritage and Mythic Eldritch Heritage) Arcane feats for another +2. Elemental Focus and Greater Elemental Focus (and Mythic Elemental Focus) will grant another +3 total, and of course these can be doubled via Spell Perfection. Although only three of these feats are mythic.

[Psyren]

Compare the various MR'd creatures in B4 to their statblocks. For example, the Iron Colossus is MR 8, so by your argument it needs to have nine mythic abilities. Where are they?

Or what about Bokrug? He's a GOO, but has no mythic feats (neither do Cthulhu or Hastur, for that matter, so they obviously don't get full MR benefits) and no mythic abilities.

Statblocks are notorious for being out of sync with the rules, and PF is no exception (NPC Codex proves that easily.) The fact that you found non-GOO mythic creatures with errors actually lends credence to the idea that their omission in the GOO block could have been an oversight as well.

And even if you're right, this could have been an intentional attempt to keep B4 "mythic-light" for those DMs who haven't gone through MA yet.


None of the three GOO statblocks include the mythic subtype.

Of course they don't - they have the GOO subtype, which includes "Mythic (Su)" and grants them that subtype.

[Drachasor]

A fair bit.

Include Mythic Spell Focus for another +1 and two Eldritch Heritage (Eldritch Heritage and Mythic Eldritch Heritage) Arcane feats for another +2. Elemental Focus and Greater Elemental Focus (and Mythic Elemental Focus) will grant another +3 total, and of course these can be doubled via Spell Perfection. Although only three of these feats are mythic.

Ahh, cool. Then with something that provides one attack per round as a swift or move (or two such things), heightened to 8th or 9th combined with Geyser, and all the work is done.

Some Scarabs of Protections, those spells and a few Adamantine Golems and Cthulu is toast. Though, you might want something that is SR: Yes so the Golems don't have to worry about positioning. SR 41 if you are level 30 is pretty trivial.

[Alleran]

Statblocks are notorious for being out of sync with the rules, and PF is no exception (NPC Codex proves that easily.)
See, I might be tempted to buy that excuse if it was only a couple of creatures throughout and/or there was clear evidence that some creatures were done "right" and some were done "wrong" - but it's the case for every creature in the bestiary. That's not an oversight, that's a pattern.


Of course they don't - they have the GOO subtype, which includes "Mythic (Su)" and grants them that subtype.
Except it doesn't grant them the subtype. It only means they have a supernatural ability that allows them to be treated as if they possess a certain number of mythic ranks. They don't actually possess them, and so they don't actually get all the benefits from them.

[Spuddles]

Anyone have a Paizo account? They're usually decent at responding to stuff like this on their forums.

[Benthesquid]

A level 30 PF character can still chain-gate Solars (and even control them, at such a high level) - so just do that. Furthermore, Solars are immune to the Overwhelming Mind of his starspawn, and can make short work of them in battle.

Note however that it is harder in PF to become outright immune to mind-affecting.

First point- I assume that this is counting on Solar's ability to prepare spells as a cleric, as they don't have Gate as a spell like ability, and Wish cannot duplicate ninth level spells. Is there any basis for controlling what spells the Solar you summoned has prepared, being that Gate is not part of their usual line up?

Second point- if it is possible to Chain Gate Solars, it's worth noting that hilariously, Cthulhu can do it too.

[Luciandevine]

A powered up Mythic Augmented Channel Power Meteor Swarm that's been Maximised and Empowered? He only has 774 HP.

- Range of 1200 feet before CL boosters are taken into account.
- 6d10 bludgeoning per meteor.
- 10d10 fire per meteor.
- Channel Power adds +3d10 bludgeoning and +5d10 fire to each.
- Maximise means all the above is at full, for 960 damage (660 if you save against the fire damage, but it still ignores any resistance/immunity).
- Empowered adds an additional +3d10 bludgeoning and +5d10 fire per meteor.

You'd need to use Arcane Metamastery to apply Empower spell metamagic without increasing the spell level, along with a metamagic rod of Maximise. To make the save as difficult to beat as possible:

- 18 INT base
- +2/+4 racial (latter only if you can get a Peri-blooded aasimar with the alternate racial bonus of an additional +2 INT)
- +5 level
- +5 inherent
- +6 enhancement
- +10 mythic
- +3 age

That's a +19/+20 boost to the save DCs from INT. Channel Power is a -2 for Cthulhu, Potent is another -2. If you take Spell Focus in Evocation and then get Mythic Spell Focus, that's another +2 and the target rolls twice, taking the lower result. So Cthulhu already needs a 16 or better on his roll to beat the Reflex DC, and he still has to roll twice and take the lower. Finally, get Spell Perfection for Meteor Swarm, and any feat that allows you to add a numerical bonus to the spell (i.e. the Spell Focus and Mythic Spell Focus), those get doubled to +4. He needs an 18+ now. If you used Eldritch Heritage feats to get that Arcane School bonus from the Arcane bloodline, the +2 from that would also apply to Meteor Swarm, meaning Cthulhu is saving on a natural 20 and needs to roll two of them in a row in order to not take full damage. Although even with the half damage, there are still good odds that he's going to go down anyway.

When he pops back up with the staggered condition, just whack him with another one.

And yeah, I know that this is blasting and requires a 20th level Tier 10 blaster, but can anybody see any immediate holes?

Yup, I knew the flaws, lol. Mythic Adventures is really one of the best ways to go about it. Both melee characters and casters have the ability to drop him in 1 round if they're built right.

[Psyren]

First point- I assume that this is counting on Solar's ability to prepare spells as a cleric, as they don't have Gate as a spell like ability, and Wish cannot duplicate ninth level spells. Is there any basis for controlling what spells the Solar you summoned has prepared, being that Gate is not part of their usual line up?

Second point- if it is possible to Chain Gate Solars, it's worth noting that hilariously, Cthulhu can do it too.

Sure - you gate them in just before dawn or whenever it is that they pray for spells, and order them to swap out Storm of Vengeance for it. You'll only get 1 round of Solars that way, but Big C is potentially even more handicapped - He can only do 2d4 Star Spawns who will only get 1 each. You can prepare Gate in all your 9th-level slots and call a Solar with each one.

I'm not sure if MA has a way to convert lower-level spell slots to higher ones - does it?

[Alleran]

Anyone have a Paizo account? They're usually decent at responding to stuff like this on their forums.
I went and asked already:

I did indeed design the great old ones.

All of them, along with the demon lords and empyreal lords, are "mythic equivalent" creatures. They don't directly use the mythic rules for their powers (with the exception of some mythic spell-like abilities), but they absolutely count as mythic creatures for the purposes of resolving attacks from mythic characters.

They do not have the mythic subtype. Their stats, along with all the other stats in the book, are complete—you don't need to "finish" them by adding the benefits from the mythic subtype.
So moving on.


I'm not sure if MA has a way to convert lower-level spell slots to higher ones - does it?
You mean something like Versatile Spellcaster? I'm pretty sure that it doesn't. You can use Wild Arcana/Arcane Surge to cast lots of extra Gate spells, though, if getting more of them is all you want. You need to have one memorised in the case of Arcane Surge, and spend a use of mythic power regardless, since it's a mythic ability, but you can do it. At 10th tier, assuming no feats/abilities granting extra mythic power, that's an additional 23 Gates if you want to blow all your mythic power.