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TheCryingApple
2013-12-08, 01:03 AM
so im VERY new to D&D, and so is my group.
the dungeon master knows a bit about it, but the situation is pretty much a substitute teacher attempting to control a group of wild 12 year olds. not litterally.
anywho... ive been reading order of the stick for a while, and ive read every single page. i think im getting a hang of how stories are supposed to go, but my character needs some work. we are all in the planning stage, and we want to get this done by the next 2 weeks.

my character, is a hobgoblin bard, who is a silly little kermudgin. or idiot, depending on how lightly you want to put it. he plays the stick.
his backstory is, that in the homeland of the hobgoblins, there is currently a caste system. hobs are at the top, while goblins are lower down. my hob was asked about his position on the caste system, because he was thought of as a "philosopher". he started a speech about how we should all share and care for each other, and not be mean. this was taken as "OVERTHROW THE PROLETARIAT, LONG LIVE THE BOURGEOIS GOBLINS", so he was banished.

later on, he was taken in (abducted) by a foreign merchant, and abourd his ship, he learned many things.
rope tastes better than maggot bread.
every time they throw you overboard, swim. sharks dont want hugs.
and most importantly, you cant hear them dangle a guy who threatened mutny overboard if you drown out the sound with music.
he found a stick onboard, and began playing it. he liked it, and thought it brought peace to his mind. (turns out he was playing a song of insanity, and got himself thrown overboard for the last time)

so he finds himself floating ashore on the mainland of a new contintent, populated by gnomes. he gets captured by thugs, and brought further inland. he easily escapes, and finds himself being recruited somehow. we havent worked on that yet.

his ability scores are:
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 17 with hobgoblin racial bonuses.

i assigned these skills, and since it was my first time, i dont know, they seemed smart.

Performance +7, Handle Animal +7, Listen +2, Spot +2, Tumble +6, and Intimidate +7. with racial bonuses. (i neglected to put swim, even though it was in my backstory. sue me.)

what feats should i get?
dungeon master said i could get 2, because im a hobgoblin, just one has to be fighter. not gonna question that, it gives me a bonus.

he recommended "wild cohort" because im gonna have animal taming, cause glib glib is one giant ball of happiness and cuddles. glib glib is the hobgoblins name.

now this part is so the dungeon master doesnt see yet. im scheming. ill let him in on it later though. i know he uses these forums, so i want him not to know. anyone replying to this specific part, please put in spoiler. scheming is an important part of the game i assume.

i want my character to slowly become evil and be drawn to bloodlust, due to his violent nature. ill slowly get him to increase offensive ability, but early on i want him passive and peaceful. what feats would let me build power and become violent and enraged that i could take later game? something that would let me beat a dwarven warblade, elven rogue, and a factotum (of spellcasting variety)? note, warblade has no obvious weaknesses in his personality, but the elf is a drug dealer, and the factotum is pretty much insane from being part demon. we decided that my song of insanity would allow me to make others go crazy, but give clarity to him, and increase his power. possibly a song of clarity will cripple him mentally? and i could make bounty hunters attack the elf, or get him high on his product, and then take him out in his impaired state. the warblade will be a problem.

Chaltab
2013-12-08, 01:12 AM
My advice would be... don't. Just don't. It's your first D&D game. Until you're very familiar with the rules and the group you're playing with, any intra-game drama and conflict is likely to just drag the game down into a morass of unfun backbiting.

TheCryingApple
2013-12-08, 01:18 AM
ive known the group for years, and i always wanted to backstab them a few times. ill just pick up the rules as i go along, im only gonna start the drama half way through when we are all familiar with whats going on.

Gizladlo
2013-12-08, 02:18 AM
Antisocial behavior in a social setting is typically frowned upon, and persistence usually results in exclusion.

ngilop
2013-12-08, 02:54 AM
I have to 3rd the side of "Just don't and pretend you never wanted to"

Ive known campaigns between years longs friends that ended because oen guy wanted ot be 'that guy' who backstabs somebody for the lulz. but that was mostly becuase jerk-head just sprang it upon all of us-even the DM, maybe a heads up at the startw ould not have angered so many.

If you are seriously wanting to play the ' betray the party cuz imma jerk' guy then for the love of all, let them know what you plan to do with your character, just don't be a mega jerk and out of the blue do whatever shady bakc alley deal of jerking voer your friends you have planned.

TheCryingApple
2013-12-08, 03:16 AM
I have to 3rd the side of "Just don't and pretend you never wanted to"

Ive known campaigns between years longs friends that ended because oen guy wanted ot be 'that guy' who backstabs somebody for the lulz. but that was mostly becuase jerk-head just sprang it upon all of us-even the DM, maybe a heads up at the startw ould not have angered so many.

If you are seriously wanting to play the ' betray the party cuz imma jerk' guy then for the love of all, let them know what you plan to do with your character, just don't be a mega jerk and out of the blue do whatever shady bakc alley deal of jerking voer your friends you have planned.

alright. it seems this was a poorly thought out idea. i guess we should actually think up of a story before i go ahead and think of betraying people, it probably wouldnt end well anyway. i wouldnt want to be a douche to the people who planned their characters for so long, and i guess i wouldnt want them to do it to me (i am expecting it from the factotum though, his story is just silly, and i know hes gonna pull something eventually)

anyways ive discussed with the dungeon master party roles, and i decided i would be a sort of lookout/ buffer, and i would be the one who makes sure people dont get jumped.

any feats regarding insomnia/ awareness of surroundings?
specifically any fighter feats that help protect people, whilst i buff with music.
also, wild cohort is still something im interested in. would i be able to ride my familiar into battle, and would it have to be a specific animal to be a mount?

and if i go with mixing classes, what would be a good compliment to bard? im thinking archer, because of my high dexterity, and then i would take mounted archery as a feat.

SowZ
2013-12-08, 12:15 PM
Antisocial behavior in a social setting is typically frowned upon, and persistence usually results in exclusion.

It all depends on group expectations. Intrigue, opposing motives, and betrayal from time to time are all expected in my games yet I have to turn people down when I start a new campaign from over-interest. Different strokes.

Airk
2013-12-08, 04:55 PM
In all depends on group expectations. Intrigue, opposing motives, and betrayal from time to time are all expected in my games yet I have to turn people down when I start a new campaign from over-interest. Different strokes.

This, but ALSO seconding (fourthing?) the "Just don't do it." people. With the caveat of "---this time."

Seriously. You need to set expectations here - is it OKAY if people's character's fight one another and struggle and betray each other? Or is everyone expected to be a good guy team here? And since you are here asking this question on a random internet forum, it's obvious that no level setting of expectations was done for this game. (Don't feel too bad. Most people never even realize they need to. This is why gaming groups explode and people have hard feelings.)

STILL want to to do it? Okay. It's time for advanced roleplaying 201. TELL your group "I'm interested in having Gronk (you never even gave us the name of your character?) succumb to bloodlust and eventually turn evil/betray the party. What would be a totally awesome way to make that happen?" Secrets are bad. Cooperating to tell an awesome story is good. If your group isn't mature enough to help you work out an awesome betrayal and make it happen with their full knowledge, there is NO WAY they are mature enough to handle a surprise one without hard feelings.

There. There are some options. But if you pick Option 0: "Surprise everyone with your betrayal even though no one agreed that sort of behavior is okay", don't be surprised when people get upset.

Honest Tiefling
2013-12-08, 05:00 PM
I've never seen this work well for a first time playing DnD. Through it sounds like your group might also be planning on it. I advise speaking with the DM to get a clear idea of what he is expecting.

And if you are doing so for drama and RP, why do you care who wins? Through I admit, I wonder what you mean by evil nature.

TheCryingApple
2013-12-08, 09:14 PM
This, but ALSO seconding (fourthing?) the "Just don't do it." people. With the caveat of "---this time."

Seriously. You need to set expectations here - is it OKAY if people's character's fight one another and struggle and betray each other? Or is everyone expected to be a good guy team here? And since you are here asking this question on a random internet forum, it's obvious that no level setting of expectations was done for this game. (Don't feel too bad. Most people never even realize they need to. This is why gaming groups explode and people have hard feelings.)

STILL want to to do it? Okay. It's time for advanced roleplaying 201. TELL your group "I'm interested in having Gronk (you never even gave us the name of your character?) succumb to bloodlust and eventually turn evil/betray the party. What would be a totally awesome way to make that happen?" Secrets are bad. Cooperating to tell an awesome story is good. If your group isn't mature enough to help you work out an awesome betrayal and make it happen with their full knowledge, there is NO WAY they are mature enough to handle a surprise one without hard feelings.

There. There are some options. But if you pick Option 0: "Surprise everyone with your betrayal even though no one agreed that sort of behavior is okay", don't be surprised when people get upset.

when i said i was gonna eventually betray them, i never meant suddenly and out of nowhere. i gonna tell them partway through the quest, when my character was actually feeling this, that the stick was talking to him and telling him to kill the others. and we most likely were gonna have some internal conflict, because back when i was planning to have my character be a bear (just a bear and nothing else. he was gonna be a rogue who disguised himself as a human whenever in public, and bluff to speak. that was frowned upon by the dungeon master, and after a good 20 other ideas, i settled for hobgoblin.) we decided the factotum was the one who sealed my mind inside of a bears body, and then his memory was lost and he succumbed to insanity. i was gonna discover that fact and stuff would happen. we never worked that plot line out, as i was encouraged to not be a bear. i prepared rigorously for that role. i ate raw salmon, walked around naked, and hibernated for a month, which isnt really that different than my regular schedule.

also, his name is glib glib. it was in the original post. second to last paragraph, excluding the spoiler.

TheCryingApple
2013-12-08, 09:21 PM
I've never seen this work well for a first time playing DnD. Through it sounds like your group might also be planning on it. I advise speaking with the DM to get a clear idea of what he is expecting.

And if you are doing so for drama and RP, why do you care who wins? Through I admit, I wonder what you mean by evil nature.

he was gonna start hearing voices from the stick. As his music was causing insanity around him, he was slowly being affected, though unknowingly. eventually the stick started appealing to his hobgoblin ancestry, and even though he wanted to be peaceful and lovable, he couldnt help but see the inferiority of the other races, particularly the other party members.

the religion of the hobgoblins was based on them being the apex race, these emotions arent my own, im not trying to say something to my party members indirectly.

also, im definitely NOT expecting that to work. i wanted to see how it would go wrong, and what it would accomplish.


and i completely tossed the idea anyway, im just looking for lookout- style feats now, any ideas?

MonochromeTiger
2013-12-08, 09:37 PM
he was gonna start hearing voices from the stick. As his music was causing insanity around him, he was slowly being affected, though unknowingly. eventually the stick started appealing to his hobgoblin ancestry, and even though he wanted to be peaceful and lovable, he couldnt help but see the inferiority of the other races, particularly the other party members.

the religion of the hobgoblins was based on them being the apex race, these emotions arent my own, im not trying to say something to my party members indirectly.

also, im definitely NOT expecting that to work. i wanted to see how it would go wrong, and what it would accomplish.


and i completely tossed the idea anyway, im just looking for lookout- style feats now, any ideas?

improved initiative, allows you more chance of running to alert the group without taking a hit if you're away from them, alternatively it allows you to use a bardic performance or buff spell to better effect as you're more likely to go first.

Sebastrd
2013-12-09, 01:30 PM
I recommend you skip D&D altogether and just play Paranoia.

Airk
2013-12-09, 02:10 PM
and i completely tossed the idea anyway,

Good, because after the last post, I was starting to wonder if I should be taking you seriously at all.


im just looking for lookout- style feats now, any ideas?

Alertness? Stalwart Sentinel?

TheCryingApple
2013-12-09, 11:51 PM
Good, because after the last post, I was starting to wonder if I should be taking you seriously at all.



Alertness? Stalwart Sentinel?

the whole thing is half silly.
i mean, the only person doing regular old roleplay is the dwarf warblade.
the factotum's story involves his grandmother finding and raping a demon. the demon was stunned that she accomplished the deed, and just let her go.

the elf was a weapons dealer to the gnomes who got kicked out of elvish government when they found out, and took refuge with the gnomes. he does copious amounts of drugs.

i was gonna be the bear, and the factotum would pretty much be the only one who could communicate with me, but only through hitting me with a stick.

now, im just a really dull hobgoblin that doesnt know his music drives people insane, literally.

i think the dungeon master initially thought we were gonna play a super serious game, but the people in our group are not the people who you would expect to play seriously.

and in any case, this game is pretty much a trial run. we will see how it goes, learn the ropes.

Honest Tiefling
2013-12-10, 12:40 AM
What if instead of killing the party, you tell your DM that you want your party to redeem your character or to break the curse?

Evo_Kaer
2013-12-10, 07:28 AM
I don't know what you guys all have. I think that's a really great idea and a lot of awesome roleplaying potential.

As soon as I read slowly become evil and be drawn to bloodlust, I imagined the Hobgoblin slowly becoming crazier and more and more violent. Going from shy and peaceloving to offensive and sadistic.

So if you do it right, your friends should see it coming long before you would turn on them. What they do then is all up to them. But you actually don't have to tell them anything. Just it sip through how your character changes. E.g. first he starts to fight instead of just staying in the background and playing his stick. Further he starts enjoying hurting prisoners, should you even make them. All the while starting to talk to him self in a more and more crazy tone.

Start low and end high. In the end it should really hit them in the face, that something is awefully wrong with you. Which should make them cautious. If they don't get it, you can still, as you are going to turn on them, talk to yourself and cackle while moving towards their sleeping bags to stab them. Still gives them a chance to wake up and survive.

tl;dr: Awesome idea, But execution is essential. I get why most here are against it


What if instead of killing the party, you tell your DM that you want your party to redeem your character or to break the curse?

That's up to the other players. I wouldn't outright tell them though. I would let them figure out themselves how they want to handle the "crazy Hobo".

Starchild7309
2013-12-10, 11:24 AM
I have found, lile with most things, if you and a group are just learning something, keep it simple. Its ok to have a backstory but make it simple, friendly and without insanity. Best thing you could do is go with you have amnesia. You have your skills and abilities but you forgot your past. That way later on if you want to do something once you all have your feet under you, you can fill it in later. Lets you judge how the party is going and if your other players are going to be avle to handle inner party conflict and not break the game.

Rhynn
2013-12-10, 11:42 AM
The problem, I think, is here:


anywho... ive been reading order of the stick for a while, and ive read every single page. i think im getting a hang of how stories are supposed to go, but my character needs some work. we are all in the planning stage, and we want to get this done by the next 2 weeks.

It's a weird little paradox: we get our inspiration for settings, characters, locations, and events from novels, movies, comics, and so on...

But none of those are a game. A RPG is a game first, and isn't about telling a specific story (except when it explicitly is, which mostly isn't the case with D&D).

Originally, the stories were sort of told afterwards: just like in real life, a series of events becomes a story when someone tells it later. The series of events is what takes place during play; the story is what you recount later to others, what you reminisce about, or what someone records after play (a campaign journal).

As the hobby went along, more and more people started using RPGs to tell specific stories, but the medium conflicts with the purpose. Of course it can be done - all forms of storytelling (movies, comics, etc.) can be used in a way that conflicts with the medium, and to great effect if done well. The thing is, hardly any GM is going to do it well first time out, or even the tenth; it takes skill, and skill comes with experience.


So, for starting out with D&D, stop thinking about telling stories; think about playing a game. A cooperative game. You wouldn't stab your teammates in the back in football; don't do it in a RPG, either. If or when everyone explicitly agrees to play a game/campaign where backstabbing and treachery are part of the game, then it's fine. Otherwise, don't.

Toofey
2013-12-10, 03:30 PM
More than just saying "don't" I'd like to make a point that it take a lot of people years to actually grasp.

You're not, in any way, in competition with the other players. They're your cohorts as you face a likely hostile world.

Adversarial play leads to failed games WAY more than it works because of this. Ultimately even if your characters have different objectives, the players all want to have a good time when they play. Once it gets adversarial, and people become suspiscious, it becomes tense, and less fun for everyone, the overwhelming majority of the time. Often even players who are looking for this end up in games that are adversarial that fail because they don't consider how the added stress impacts the fun of the game.

It can be difficult to keep the game going and fun in the best of times, once things get adversarial it gets much harder to keep the game successful in terms of the players having a good time.

TheCryingApple
2013-12-10, 08:01 PM
I don't know what you guys all have. I think that's a really great idea and a lot of awesome roleplaying potential.

As soon as I read slowly become evil and be drawn to bloodlust, I imagined the Hobgoblin slowly becoming crazier and more and more violent. Going from shy and peaceloving to offensive and sadistic.

So if you do it right, your friends should see it coming long before you would turn on them. What they do then is all up to them. But you actually don't have to tell them anything. Just it sip through how your character changes. E.g. first he starts to fight instead of just staying in the background and playing his stick. Further he starts enjoying hurting prisoners, should you even make them. All the while starting to talk to him self in a more and more crazy tone.

Start low and end high. In the end it should really hit them in the face, that something is awefully wrong with you. Which should make them cautious. If they don't get it, you can still, as you are going to turn on them, talk to yourself and cackle while moving towards their sleeping bags to stab them. Still gives them a chance to wake up and survive.

tl;dr: Awesome idea, But execution is essential. I get why most here are against it



That's up to the other players. I wouldn't outright tell them though. I would let them figure out themselves how they want to handle the "crazy Hobo".

i think this idea is actually good for a sidequest now. the party comes to notice little qwib qwib isolating himself and gibbering to mr. stick. he stops playing music and starts clubbing people. he begins to believe in his native religion's "hobgoblin supremacy" theory.

the party goes to meet an oracle to "find clues on the main quest" while they actually ask questions about how to break the curse on my stick, and what was the story behind it. it cant be coincidental i just found a magic musical stick. meanwhile, i ask for information on how to get stronger, and the oracle tells me about a feat that will use my insanity and make me much more powerful.

the group goes on a quest where they slowly learn that hundreds of years ago, the factotum (who in his past was a horrible warlock, who lost his memory to age) set a curse on the stick to cause havok and chaos. he tied the curse to a rune, and set an image of himself to gaurd it for eternity.

we fight the image, who is substantially stronger than the original, because he hasnt aged a bit. my character has very strong internal conflict. the image sees this, and makes me fight a battle against myself in my mind, and thus completely incapacitating me in a comatose state.

as the battle rages on outside, inside my mind the peaceful bard fights the malicious warlord. this can go many ways.
-bard wins, he comes out to fight, and with his music re-invigorates the team and they triumph, the warblade smashing the stone and releasing the curse.
-the bard holds out until they defeat the image, and the illusion is broken, so he returns to his mindless gabbering state and tries to stop the warblade from destroying the rune. rune gets destroyed and qwib qwib goes back to his old state.
those are just a few ideas.

then, the factotum absorbs his image, gaining power. he enchants my stick to give it the ability to play music. the warblades sword is strangely affected by the rune, and it becomes more powerful. we go on our merry way and continue on our quest, each one becoming slightly stronger.


this solution has much less backstabbing/ fighting the team, and provides a nice little story to add background on characters, and makes everyone stronger for the story ahead

Evo_Kaer
2013-12-11, 02:37 AM
Okay, just to be clear:

What you just wrote is partly up to your comrades and mostly up to your DM. Interesting ideas, but still you should talk to your DM about them, since he's basically the storyteller ;)

Rhynn
2013-12-11, 04:39 AM
What you just wrote is partly up to your comrades and mostly up to your DM. Interesting ideas, but still you should talk to your DM about them, since he's basically the storyteller ;)

The DM can't control the other players/PCs, either.

RPGs are not a medium in which you can construct stories to tell that involve anyone else's reaction (except the NPCs', if you're the game master), which means you can pretty much only construct a premise and let it loose and see what happens.

TheCryingApple, just focus on playing the game for now. It's pretty dang fun.

ngilop
2013-12-11, 03:33 PM
Yeah, I have to agree with everybody saying 'just play and learn the game for now'

what is going to happen is you are going to get dozens of awesome sounding storylines in your head ( and if your like me half of them when played out are going to not be anywhere as good as in your head)

Id just take the time to learn the game and see how mechanically the various ideas in your head can work within the game before you start in on your story ideas.

write these ideas down and make sure you skip lines so you can write in notes as your learn the mechanics of the game to better work your story.

SowZ
2013-12-11, 04:01 PM
You will likely have a much more satisfying roleplaying experience if you know your character and let him develop naturally according to the situations he's put it. If you plan it all out ahead of time, the actual experiences and sessions become meaningless to the actual character in all but very specific circumstances.

It's not a book. The organic nature is half the fun! It is why the backstories of my characters aren't terribly long. I want to create that backstory as I go along.

TheCryingApple
2013-12-11, 09:38 PM
yeah, i guess i am getting to much into it as if it were a book. i always wanted to be a writer, and i plan on starting to write as soon as i get out of college.
i just get really exited trying to make my character have an interesting story.
either way, i doubt the dm will let it happen, since i already know the story, and there is no fun in telling the dm what to do. and i know the other players can be very unpredictable. i honestly doubt they would go on a quest to break a curse etc. they are more likely to tie me up and wear me like a backpack, until we finish.

Rhynn
2013-12-12, 12:40 AM
It's not a book. The organic nature is half the fun! It is why the backstories of my characters aren't terribly long. I want to create that backstory as I go along.

This is gold, too.

I don't think I'd bother reading over a page, and really, a paragraph should be enough. In HeroQuest, you create a character by writing 100 words, and that has to cover everything about your character that will enter play. (Literally: you write it, and then you underline words that will go on your character sheet as abilities, or that reference keywords - culture, profession, religion - with pre-defined lists of abilities.)