A party full of Clerics? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 02:15 AM

Haha...ha...healing.

A party of 5 clerics would destroy pretty much everything they faced. You'll want a DMM cleric for the buffs, a Spell domain cleric for some sweet arcane mojo, a Kobold cleric for trapfinding, a War cleric with Zen Archery, and an undead-controlling necromancy cleric. Stick Inquisition, Divine Spellpower and Divine Defiance on one of them to shut down any other casters you face, and then just do wheelies around the universe until your DM sics an Elder Evil on you.

I'm the only Optimizer in the group.

Two of the others are capable mechanic wise are trying to learn how to optimize more however. But this will be their first optimized characters.

One of them has as much experience as the rest of us, but struggled greatly with learning the mechanics. To the point he need's help with leveling up still.

And one of them is brand new, this would be his first campaign ever. Of any edition.

In other words: The Build's can't all be optimized complicated.
Honestly in terms of build's the complexity levels I'd need would be...

-One with no limits/safe guards, give me everything you got.
-Two Optimized, but be cautious about getting too complicated on some things since they will be new optimizers.
-Two designed for someone who is new to the system.

Well, either it's a party of clerics of the same faith, in which case, they're the traveling "FOR GOD!" party...

Or it's a party of clerics of different faiths on an ecumenical journey. You could put clerics of Cuthbert, Heironeus, Pelor, Kord, and Elhonna in one party and see what happens.

For added Lulz, in the party of 5 different clerics, rule the same Domain may not be used among them twice. If Heironeus uses Good and War, no other cleric may use Good or War, etc.

If it's all the same god it really becomes a question of which. Any fun Gods you can think of?

If different Gods that makes that a bit easier. Though what if the Gods are all vastly different? Why would they be traveling together then?

For differing domains. Maybe, but that just seems a bit unneeded. :P

If you do go with it, make them all dwarves.

Is there a specific reason for this?

Mechanic reason? For kicks? In reference to "Order of the stick"?

Douglas

2013-12-08, 02:15 AM

If you do go with it, make them all dwarves.
As seen in this webcomic (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=247).

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 02:29 AM

As seen in this webcomic (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=247).

Funny. :smalltongue:
I'm gonna read more into this, if for nothing more than for kicks and to get some ideas.

cakellene

2013-12-08, 02:30 AM

Ooh, a new comic to read.

eggynack

2013-12-08, 02:39 AM

Catman

2013-12-08, 02:41 AM

I believe there was a D&D fantasy novel on this, The Cleric Quintet. Haven't read it, but maybe worth looking at.

Any ideas on why clerics of different faiths would work together?

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 02:46 AM

It is a reasonably good webcomic, though it's notable for having a pretty godawful art style for a good chunk of its run, as well as some pretty questionable decisions by what are ostensibly hardcore optimizers. Still, rather enjoyable I think.

As for the all cleric party, it should go just about perfectly. Clerics can fill just about any role in the game if they're specced for it, though some degree of coordination may be necessary if you don't want to leave something out. However, even without that coordination, as the comic itself notes, clerics basically have no weaknesses. They just run around, casting spells, and being amazing. As long as you have a good knowledge of the spell list, things really can't go too far off track.

To be fair, it's their first experience with 3.5

They're still learning the ropes of the new edition.
Plus I think it's a safe assumption that they only have access to the core books and wouldn't be using an online resource such as this to get advice and insight from other players.

Honestly, if not for this site and all you guys my D&D experience/know how would be far smaller and limited than what it is today.

I believe there was a D&D fantasy novel on this, The Cleric Quintet. Haven't read it, but maybe worth looking at.

Any ideas on why clerics of different faiths would work together?

Not sure if I'd read a whole novel though. :/
I'm not much of a book person...
Stuff like D&D gameplay books are exceptions to that rule.

But the Clerics of different faiths puzzles me. I can understand it if it's all branches of the same God (which the mechanics don't account for). But if it's all different religions all I can imagine is them fighting each other over which religion is true.

Granted, this is D&D and not real life where all the gods actually do exist. So maybe that concern is unfounded. But I would still be questioning of why they aren't fighting over which religion is best.

eggynack

2013-12-08, 02:47 AM

Any ideas on why clerics of different faiths would work together?
Why not?
"Ho there, traveler. I seek to put an end to this curse that has drained away at the heart of our kingdom. Will you join me on this quest?"
"Of course. The call to arms is universal, irrespective of faith." "Truly we live in troubling times."
"Quite so. Once the world returns to its former self, I can go back to indiscriminately killing anyone from other churches, regardless of their alignment." "That sounds completely reasonable. But for now, let us be off, for the kingdom hangs in the balance."

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 02:51 AM

Why not? "Ho there, traveler. I seek to put an end to this curse that has drained away at the heart of our kingdom. Will you join me on this quest?"
"Of course. The call to arms is universal, irrespective of faith." "Truly we live in troubling times."
"Quite so. Once the world returns to its former self, I can go back to indiscriminately killing anyone from other churches, regardless of their alignment." "That sounds completely reasonable. But for now, let us be off, for the kingdom hangs in the balance."

Yea... About that... :/

Our group has a tendency to be more evil than good.

(Un)Inspired

2013-12-08, 02:54 AM

I think you should play a twice betrayer of shar for your no limits build.

Show those new players what it means to be invincible

eggynack

2013-12-08, 02:57 AM

To be fair, it's their first experience with 3.5

They're still learning the ropes of the new edition.
Plus I think it's a safe assumption that they only have access to the core books and wouldn't be using an online resource such as this to get advice and insight from other players.
Nah, the real problems come up in campaigns that occur after the first one. The all cleric campaign relies on reasonably sound optimization principles. The problems start later on, with stuff like Joe advising that Dan ditch conjuration, or Joe ditching a significant number of caster levels for a lame stun lock trick. Also, they tend to have pretty broad book access. It wouldn't be all that problematic that Joe makes mistakes like that, but he's credited as some D&D super-genius who has completely memorized every book. I guess it can be explained as him being more knowledgeable about melee fellows, which he is, and those characters tend to be more logically formed if I'm not mistaken, but it's a bit of an unsatisfying solution to the problem, and it's never brought up in the work.

Yea... About that... :/

Our group has a tendency to be more evil than good.
"Ho there traveler. I seek to lay a curse on this kingdom to end the recent blight of good adventurers that have been plaguing our kingdom."

"Of course. The call to villainy is universal, irrespective of faith."

Basically, I'm saying that characters work together despite some differences all the time, whether they're clerics or not. It shouldn't make all that much difference.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 02:57 AM

I think you should play a twice betrayer of shar for your no limits build.

Show those new players what it means to be invincible

How does that work exactly?

I should also disclaim, although the builds have varying limits on how optimized/complicated they can be. I'm hoping for them all to be around the same power level so the less skilled players don't feel left in the dust and overshadowed.

cakellene

2013-12-08, 02:58 AM

I believe there was a D&D fantasy novel on this, The Cleric Quintet. Haven't read it, but maybe worth looking at.

Any ideas on why clerics of different faiths would work together?

Isn't that mainly about a single cleric and just called quintet since it's five books?

(Un)Inspired

2013-12-08, 03:07 AM

How does that work exactly?

I should also disclaim, although the builds have varying limits on how optimized/complicated they can be. I'm hoping for them all to be around the same power level so the less skilled players don't feel left in the dust and overshadowed.

The twice betrayer of shar uses DMM and serval tricks like ocular spell to persist spells weren't every meant to be persisted. I believe the grooviest of which is a persisted selective anti magic zone.

It's like a reverse roach motel for spells. They can go out but they can never come in.

georgie_leech

2013-12-08, 03:08 AM

Isn't that mainly about a single cleric and just called quintet since it's five books?

It touches on the interaction of differing faiths, but it's largely about one man's journey of discovery, yeah. It also serves as a fantastic example in power levels between the mundane and magical. Working together, using every bit of the environment they can, Drizzt and Wulfgar can slay a dragon, usually by the skin of their teeth.
Cadderly turns one into the group's personal Air Travel service.

Graustein

2013-12-08, 03:13 AM

I believe there was a D&D fantasy novel on this, The Cleric Quintet. Haven't read it, but maybe worth looking at.

Any ideas on why clerics of different faiths would work together?

The Cleric Quintet actually refers to there being five books in the series, although it does follow a cleric as the protagonist, and his party does have five members if I recall correctly. That said, it's very good, my favourite R.A. Salvatore work.

*cough* anyway, on-topic, I would have the clerics be all of the same religion, but be very lenient with domain choices; the point of having five characters of the same class is to try as much as possible not to tread on the toes of your fellow players, but also give an excuse for five highly devout characters to work together. Different religions can work, sure, but that'd be an RP challenge if you don't choose to just ignore the RP aspect.

Good thing the cleric has options! An elven zen archer cleric would be mighty cool, and casty and frontliney clerics are both very easy to build. There's tons of opportunity for variation within the "casty" subset, too. One thing that would be cool is to try and follow a Neutral god, so you can have both positive- and negative-channeling clerics in the team, just for a dash more variety. Throw a necro-cleric in the mix, maybe, if that's compatible with your RP aspects. Maybe an unarmed cleric (monk dip?) who uses spontaneous Inflict spells, that would also be quite cool, although I have no clue as to the feasibility of such a build.

Also consider prestige classes, if you want to diversify your cast even further.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 03:15 AM

The twice betrayer of shar uses DMM and serval tricks like ocular spell to persist spells weren't every meant to be persisted. I believe the grooviest of which is a persisted selective anti magic zone.

It's like a reverse roach motel for spells. They can go out but they can never come in.

I can see where this is going, and the undeniable power it has.

But it honestly sounds like a build that would cause me to completely overshadow the other players, and I'd rather avoid that.

(Un)Inspired

2013-12-08, 03:19 AM

That's fair. What kind of cleric are you interested in playing? Maybe we can pin these builds down based on player preference

JHShadon

2013-12-08, 03:20 AM

Perhaps you could be five evil clerics who worship different gods but work together to destroy all good, a bit like the IFCC from OOtS, you would probably all have to agree that stabbing each other in the back will have to wait until all good is gone.

Or perhaps they could've been teleported into a dungeon by a bored and powerful wizard and must overcome it's challenges with teamwork, then they decide to stick together because they work well together.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 03:20 AM

*cough* anyway, on-topic, I would have the clerics be all of the same religion, but be very lenient with domain choices; the point of having five characters of the same class is to try as much as possible not to tread on the toes of your fellow players, but also give an excuse for five highly devout characters to work together. Different religions can work, sure, but that'd be an RP challenge if you don't choose to just ignore the RP aspect.

Good thing the cleric has options! An elven zen archer cleric would be mighty cool, and casty and frontliney clerics are both very easy to build. There's tons of opportunity for variation within the "casty" subset, too. One thing that would be cool is to try and follow a Neutral god, so you can have both positive- and negative-channeling clerics in the team, just for a dash more variety. Throw a necro-cleric in the mix, maybe, if that's compatible with your RP aspects. Maybe an unarmed cleric (monk dip?) who uses spontaneous Inflict spells, that would also be quite cool, although I have no clue as to the feasibility of such a build.

Also consider prestige classes, if you want to diversify your cast even further.

So basically the roles so far are:

-Archer
-Spell Slinger
-Melee Fighter
-Necromancer
-Unarmed Cleric (Note: Monks not needed. A Monks Belt + Superior Unarmed Combat Feat works well here)

All seem cool, though I have to ask. Does a Cleirc do well throwing out damaging spells, or do most of their spells tend to just work well for summons and healing?

Prestige Classes are totally an option. They'd just have to be Prestige clearly designed for a Cleric to progress into so it still has the Cleric feel and functionality to it.

Also, I'm thinking of suggesting the spell point variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) to the group. That way we can be more flexible with the spells we cast, healing as evil clerics isn't as much an issue and personally I find the spell point/mana system more fun than spells per day.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-12-08, 03:23 AM

A Cleric can be built to fill any of the four party roles just fine:

Rogue/Trapmonkey: Kobold Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), Trickery and Kobold domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)s.

Fighter: Human Cleric of Zarus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=1), Strength and War domains. Go Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, pick up the Oracle, Law, and Destiny domains.

Wizard: (Wild or Snow) Elf Cloistered Cleric, Cold and Slime domains. Take Ruathar and dip Seeker of the Misty Isle then finish with Contemplative. Pick up the Travel, Spell, and Magic domains.

(Un)Inspired

2013-12-08, 03:24 AM

Angelalex242

2013-12-08, 03:28 AM

For 5 clerics of one god, can't beat Olidarma.

"The right holy traveling, drinking, and wenching society!"

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 03:29 AM

Oh before I forget, the two other Optimizing Players do have some of a concept so far.

One want's to be a Rogue/Cleric mix. I'm not sure of rogue levels are actually necessary. It simply needs to be a Cleric good with sneak attacks and stealth. Essentially he's trying to re-create and improve an old Black Flame Zealot Character he had.

The other one simply expressed a want to make a Charismatic, social character. Not necessarily the face, but when I reminded her of the group she was playing with she agreed it would probably be best if her character was also the face of the group.

That's fair. What kind of cleric are you interested in playing? Maybe we can pin these builds down based on player preference

Personally, like my sig says. I jump character concepts too often to be dead set on one. So most likely I'll fill a roll than none of the other four want.

But if I had to pick some I like more than others... It would have to be an Archer Cleric, Unarmed Cleric or a Necromancer Cleric.

Perhaps you could be five evil clerics who worship different gods but work together to destroy all good, a bit like the IFCC from OOtS, you would probably all have to agree that stabbing each other in the back will have to wait until all good is gone.

Maybe.

Though this group of players aren't evil for the sake of it. We're evil when there is benefit behind it (Outside of one player... I'll explain this case in the spoiler). We simply do it for stuff like profit, more power or revenge if we feel that someone had wronged us.

Also as evil as we get, our characters tend to have strong loyalties to one another and don't fight or stab each other in the back that often.

The one other case is the player who has experience but struggles mechanic wise to the point he still needs help leveling up.

Basically, he'll do destructive things simply cause he's curious or bored. For example, in one town he dump a ton of drugs in the towns water supply because "He wanted to see if the fish would get high". Then he light the tavern on fire (which spread through the whole town) because "He was curious" and at that point the rest of the party took advantage of the situation and robbed it blind.

At least part of the reason he's like this though is because he sometimes get's bored and frustrated with the mechanics and such. But part of is also because he is just that crazy and destructive at times.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 03:31 AM

Have you seen the movie Keeping the Faith? If you haven't, don't because it's terrible but it's basically about two clerics of different faiths hanging out and competing over a women.

It's all about how friendships can function across faiths because commonalities exist in all people and even clerics are more than just their religious predilections... Seriously don't see it though. It's really bad.

No I haven't :P

Though the point is very true.
I guess it just depends on how religious/devoted the Clerics end up being.

For 5 clerics of one god, can't beat Olidarma.

"The right holy traveling, drinking, and wenching society!"

I'll look it up more myself too. But if you don't mind me asking. what exactly kind of God is this?

Angelalex242

2013-12-08, 03:35 AM

God of Rogues and Wine and other things that might be appreciated by that kind of person. He's right there in the 3.5 PHB.

(Un)Inspired

2013-12-08, 03:41 AM

Well if you are at all interested in playing an unarmed cleric it hard to make a better choice than Sacred Fist. It's absolutely in my top 10 favorite prestige classes. I'm pretty sure I watched too much dragon ball z as a child but powering up with huge cleric buffs then rocketing into melee with your huge speed to kick the tar out of chumps is about as cool as clerics get.

Necromancy clerics are incredibly cool as well but whenever I build one it comes out as a better BBEG than as a playable character. It kinda sucks when the player next to you thinks his characters really cool cause he wields a greatsword and then looks over and sees that you wield an entire army.

I find archer clerics to be pretty interesting as a matter of fact. I played/co DMed in a 3.5 game a few years ago set on a magical version of modern day earth. My co DM sent a archer cleric with some rules slightly modified to function with guns as a sniper to hunt down my Wilder Gish. It was... Intense.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 03:48 AM

God of Rogues and Wine and other things that might be appreciated by that kind of person. He's right there in the 3.5 PHB.

Is this in regards to the one who wants to re-create the Black Flame Zealot like character? And what's the God's name exactly?

Well if you are at all interested in playing an unarmed cleric it hard to make a better choice than Sacred Fist. It's absolutely in my top 10 favorite prestige classes. I'm pretty sure I watched too much dragon ball z as a child but powering up with huge cleric buffs then rocketing into melee with your huge speed to kick the tar out of chumps is about as cool as clerics get.

Necromancy clerics are incredibly cool as well but whenever I build one it comes out as a better BBEG than as a playable character. It kinda sucks when the player next to you thinks his characters really cool cause he wields a greatsword and then looks over and sees that you wield an entire army.

I find archer clerics to be pretty interesting as a matter of fact. I played/co DMed in a 3.5 game a few years ago set on a magical version of modern day earth. My co DM sent a archer cleric with some rules slightly modified to function with guns as a sniper to hunt down my Wilder Gish. It was... Intense.

The class looks cool to say the least (Especially the fire fists *mouth waters*). But honestly most it looks like stuff I can replicated with the Superior Unarmed Combat feat and a spell or two. Plus the levels without a caster level... ouch :/

Necromancy. I have already played one before (slightly) who was a Sorcerer/Cleric/Mystic Theurge. Not the most effective spell caster, he mostly relied on Undead Leadership. I decided in the end it was too much paper work to track, and in the end I either used all the zombies with me causing a complete overshadow, or kept them all back which felt like I was shooting my character in the foot.

The Archer, honestly all I need is Zen Archery and a lot of it is covered. If I may ask, how was the archer cleric you faced against? Anything about him (Stat or RP wise) that might be cool to carry over to an Archer Cleric in this Cleric party?

Angelalex242

2013-12-08, 03:52 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olidammara

You've seriously never heard of a god detailed in a core rulebook?

You have failed your Knowledge:Religion check, sir.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 03:53 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olidammara

You've seriously never heard of a god detailed in a core rulebook?

You have failed your Knowledge:Religion check, sir.

Whenever I played a Cleric or Paladin I took the "Doesn't need to follow a God" route so it was never something I looked into. :smalltongue:

(Un)Inspired

2013-12-08, 04:10 AM

Whenever I played a Cleric or Paladin I took the "Doesn't need to follow a God" route so it was never something I looked into. :smalltongue:

That's what I do to. My only cleric was a solider of fortune/ gambler type. TN with the time and Trickery domains who tried to live every day like it could be his last.

The sniper cleric who went up against my wilder was raised to be the "sword" of his church. My character had committed some slight blasphemy and the sniper was a hunting dog coming after me.

As far as crunch goes lets see... I believe he was a serenity prestige paladin/ shiba protector/ zen archer. The bugger tracked me with divinations then took super buffed shots at me with his sniper rifle that got to have smite added to them somehow.

He was adding his level, his wisdom, his dex twice I think and at least one spell to his damage from a couple hundred feat away

Jon Everyman

2013-12-08, 04:14 AM

If you wanted a powerful character that doesn't completely overshadow the group, you could mix and match Cleric, Binder, and Anima Mage. Around level 13 it achieves a godlike level of power, but in an all cleric group you'll all break D&D's glass ceiling around then anyway. Before that point it's just a very powerful and versatile character.

Grayson01

2013-12-08, 08:59 AM

johnbragg

2013-12-08, 09:10 AM

I designed this for campaigns where Tier 1-2 is banned, but it could be a fit for your player who wants a Rogue-Cleric type.

I designed a cleric-type class or set of class features (the "Theophilite"--beloved of god) to gestalt with real classes, usually Warrior or Adept. It could gestalt with Rogue pretty easily. Basically, add Turn Undead, good Will save and Domain spells and powers from four domains. So one spell per day per spell level known, four choices.

(In general, I'm leery of the Rogue-Theophilite because it would overshadow the Rogue and not every rogue player wants a rogue-cleric blend. But that's not a problem here.)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318391

Faily

2013-12-08, 09:26 AM

I would perhaps suggest Radiant Servant of Pelor for the beginner (or the face of the group), as it is very easy to play, imo. Just fill in a few Domain-spells with good healing, and otherwise front-load on the Light-typed damage-spells... (I had great fun with that recently myself. "Imma firin' mah lazer" was said quite frequently)
Though I noticed you wanted Undead-controlling, so a Radiant Servant would probably not fit in. :smallbiggrin:

If the Unnarmed Monk got decent Charisma, one could also consider taking a one-level dip into Mystic Wanderer (Magic of Faerun) to get Charisma as a Sacred/Profane bonus to AC as well. It's nice since it keys off of not wearing armor, just like a Monk.

One day too, I will play in a pure Cleric-party. :smallamused: Just got to get it past the GM.

Schizek

2013-12-08, 09:49 AM

Good ideas for clerics specializing in different fields and not overpowering:

1. Knowledge and Social+ some wizardish(for advanced player)
Human Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor X
Domains:Knowledge,Spell, Illusion,Inquisition Domain
God: Mystra for good character and Savras for evil
Feats: Able Learner, Nymphs Kiss,Knowledge Devotion, Spontaneous Domains

2. Infiltrator and Fighter
Swordsage 2/Cleric 3/Ruby Knight Vidicator X
Domains: Undeath, Domination
God: Wee Jas, Clerics can be NE or NG
Feats: Martial Study,Martial Stance, Practiced Spellcaster, Darkstalker

3. Undead Destruction and Healing+ some DMM
Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor X
Domains: Planning, Sun
God: Amaunator, Clerics can be evil or good around neutral
Feats: Extra Turninig, Persistent Spell, DMM

4. War Machine
Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/X
Domains:War,
God: Many to choose from
Feats:Extra Turning,Law Devotion,Holy Warrior

5. Travel and Range
Ranger Elf ACF 1/Cleric 4/Seeker Of Misty Isle X
Domains: War,Elf, Travel, Trickery
God: Any Elfish
Feats: around archerly

6. Generic Cleric+ some Divinity
Cleric 5/Divine Oracle X
Domains: any useful but take Travel
God: Many
Feats: DMM Tree only:Extra Turninig, Persistent Spell, DMM

7. Summoner
Cloistered Cleric 5/Malconvoker X
Domains: Trickery, Magic?,Summonig
God: Many
Feats: Augment Summoning, maybe DMM for Twin spell

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 10:31 AM

I'm seeing some multi-classing here so I also feel the need to ask.

How many Non-Cleric levels (Prestige Classes not counting) do you think someone can take and still hold on to the Cleric kind of character/feel?

That's what I do to. My only cleric was a solider of fortune/ gambler type. TN with the time and Trickery domains who tried to live every day like it could be his last.

The sniper cleric who went up against my wilder was raised to be the "sword" of his church. My character had committed some slight blasphemy and the sniper was a hunting dog coming after me.

As far as crunch goes lets see... I believe he was a serenity prestige paladin/ shiba protector/ zen archer. The bugger tracked me with divinations then took super buffed shots at me with his sniper rifle that got to have smite added to them somehow.

He was adding his level, his wisdom, his dex twice I think and at least one spell to his damage from a couple hundred feat away

Sounds like with an Elf Paladin if it was using ranged Smite.

Extremely powerful build it looks like if the goal is good archery damage.

If you wanted a powerful character that doesn't completely overshadow the group, you could mix and match Cleric, Binder, and Anima Mage. Around level 13 it achieves a godlike level of power, but in an all cleric group you'll all break D&D's glass ceiling around then anyway. Before that point it's just a very powerful and versatile character.

How exactly does that combination make a powerful character?

I designed this for campaigns where Tier 1-2 is banned, but it could be a fit for your player who wants a Rogue-Cleric type.

I designed a cleric-type class or set of class features (the "Theophilite"--beloved of god) to gestalt with real classes, usually Warrior or Adept. It could gestalt with Rogue pretty easily. Basically, add Turn Undead, good Will save and Domain spells and powers from four domains. So one spell per day per spell level known, four choices.

(In general, I'm leery of the Rogue-Theophilite because it would overshadow the Rogue and not every rogue player wants a rogue-cleric blend. But that's not a problem here.)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318391

Seems interesting, but sadly the DM isn't allowing Gestalt.

I would perhaps suggest Radiant Servant of Pelor for the beginner (or the face of the group), as it is very easy to play, imo. Just fill in a few Domain-spells with good healing, and otherwise front-load on the Light-typed damage-spells... (I had great fun with that recently myself. "Imma firin' mah lazer" was said quite frequently)
Though I noticed you wanted Undead-controlling, so a Radiant Servant would probably not fit in. :smallbiggrin:

If the Unnarmed Monk got decent Charisma, one could also consider taking a one-level dip into Mystic Wanderer (Magic of Faerun) to get Charisma as a Sacred/Profane bonus to AC as well. It's nice since it keys off of not wearing armor, just like a Monk.

One day too, I will play in a pure Cleric-party. :smallamused: Just got to get it past the GM.

Those Prestige Classes are amazing... O_O
I'm so suggesting those to the group.

Also at Mystic Wanderer, there's nothing in it that implies being a Monk is needed. It's something that looks like a pure Cleric could take and still get the AC bonus from.

Good ideas for clerics specializing in different fields and not overpowering:

1. Knowledge and Social+ some wizardish(for advanced player)
Human Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor X
Domains:Knowledge,Spell, Illusion,Inquisition Domain
God: Mystra for good character and Savras for evil
Feats: Able Learner, Nymphs Kiss,Knowledge Devotion, Spontaneous Domains

2. Infiltrator and Fighter
Swordsage 2/Cleric 3/Ruby Knight Vidicator X
Domains: Undeath, Domination
God: Wee Jas, Clerics can be NE or NG
Feats: Martial Study,Martial Stance, Practiced Spellcaster, Darkstalker

3. Undead Destruction and Healing+ some DMM
Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor X
Domains: Planning, Sun
God: Amaunator, Clerics can be evil or good around neutral
Feats: Extra Turninig, Persistent Spell, DMM

4. War Machine
Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/X
Domains:War,
God: Many to choose from
Feats:Extra Turning,Law Devotion,Holy Warrior

5. Travel and Range
Ranger Elf ACF 1/Cleric 4/Seeker Of Misty Isle X
Domains: War,Elf, Travel, Trickery
God: Any Elfish
Feats: around archerly

6. Generic Cleric+ some Divinity
Cleric 5/Divine Oracle X
Domains: any useful but take Travel
God: Many
Feats: DMM Tree only:Extra Turninig, Persistent Spell, DMM

7. Summoner
Cloistered Cleric 5/Malconvoker X
Domains: Trickery, Magic?,Summonig
God: Many
Feats: Augment Summoning, maybe DMM for Twin spell

Awesome things here, just awesome! :)

I'm going to show all these to the others and see what they think.
I'm seeing several really powerful character builds here, not all of which are even that hard or complicated to do.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 10:58 AM

Ok, so now 3 of 5 players are on board (have yet to hear an answer from the last two). And we have a basic idea on our campaign goal too... To kill a god.

Any idea's/advice on how to do that?

Schizek

2013-12-08, 11:10 AM

Ok, so now 3 of 5 players are on board (have yet to hear an answer from the last two). And we have a basic idea on our campaign goal too... To kill a god.

Any idea's/advice on how to do that?

Get another god for help and find him a artifact to help with a task. There would be a lot knowledge checks then a spell guidance of avatar and item Scroll of Uncertain Provenance will help a lot.

You will do a lot of planar travel and a lot of traveling in general. You will need someone with cheap teleport, maybe like some planar ally. There is some gorilla demon that can use teleport to take someone with him.

Also if you want to play above 15 lvl you need consider a lot more during character creation like how you will protect against divination and how you will create your organization and followers.

Also you will need someone with max skill in Disguise because as clerics in one place you could have warm welcoming or need to run fast in another. Generally Disguise can also provide excellent protection against divination at least to some extend.

If the players are beginners I would recommend to play from 1lvl. Amount of spells that cleric can use is overwhelming. Look for some lists of all cleric spells and create exels then use mobile phones as prayer books :P to keep track of what is remembered in given moment.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 11:23 AM

Get another god for help and find him a artifact to help with a task. There would be a lot knowledge checks then a spell guidance of avatar and item Scroll of Uncertain Provenance will help a lot.

You will do a lot of planar travel and a lot of traveling in general. You will need someone with cheap teleport, maybe like some planar ally. There is some gorilla demon that can use teleport to take someone with him.

Also if you want to play above 15 lvl you need consider a lot more during character creation like how you will protect against divination and how you will create your organization and followers.

Also you will need someone with max skill in Disguise because as clerics in one place you could have warm welcoming or need to run fast in another. Generally Disguise can also provide excellent protection against divination at least to some extend.

If the players are beginners I would recommend to play from 1lvl. Amount of spells that cleric can use is overwhelming. Look for some lists of all cleric spells and create exels then use mobile phones as prayer books :P to keep track of what is remembered in given moment.

Good advice, and the Level 1 suggestion makes sense.
It's just that we have a prime of 3 weeks (will probably be 12 hour long sessions twice a week though) to do the campaign in, and I'm worried about it continuing after when people start college again. Which might mean we end it low level if we start at level 1.

Teleport and Plane Shift are easy to get as Cleric spells.
Disguise just needs a good skill check, easy. :P

Though, if we're going all evil clerics we're going to be somewhat restricted in our domains. Are there ways to pick up domains outside the ones in our deity?

Schizek

2013-12-08, 11:54 AM

Good advice, and the Level 1 suggestion makes sense.
It's just that we have a prime of 3 weeks (will probably be 12 hour long sessions twice a week though) to do the campaign in, and I'm worried about it continuing after when people start college again. Which might mean we end it low level if we start at level 1.

Teleport and Plane Shift are easy to get as Cleric spells.
Disguise just needs a good skill check, easy. :P

Though, if we're going all evil clerics we're going to be somewhat restricted in our domains. Are there ways to pick up domains outside the ones in our deity?

Teleport is only on Travel Domain list. There are some spells that can mimic effect like some tree travel from druid but they are not so efficient as Teleport. Also as domain spell you can cast It only once. In most cases you will need two teleports or even more if some wizard will be after you.

You have patron deity and have restricted domain list and You are part of church with gives plenty benefits. Or you can be cleric that only believe in certain ideas represented by domains.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

But this would stop you from going into some very nice Prc like Church Inquisitor or radiant Servant. The problem could be also with resurrection if you are non-believer.

If you prepare good cleric spell lists and know at least core spells you can start from higher level like 5-7.

Fax Celestis

2013-12-08, 12:05 PM

If you do go with it, make them all dwarves.

Indeed. Free weapon proficiencies, full speed in plate, and your standard clericzillaism stuff makes this beastly.

Schizek

2013-12-08, 12:15 PM

Indeed. Free weapon proficiencies, full speed in plate, and your standard clericzillaism stuff makes this beastly.

Yeah and with no Travel Domain, 20ft speed, no hiding skills or ranged attack they will get killed by flying enemy with CR-3.

Marlowe

2013-12-08, 12:33 PM

There is nothing a Cleric cannot do. Five of them in a party could shred and/or save worlds.:smalleek:

Fax Celestis

2013-12-08, 12:41 PM

Yeah and with no Travel Domain, 20ft speed, no hiding skills or ranged attack they will get killed by flying enemy with CR-3.

Ahahahahahano.

Thrown weapons. Celerity and Trickery domains. Scorching ray. Flame strike. Cloud of knives. Light of Lunia. Magic stone. Haste. Footsteps of the divine.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 12:50 PM

Teleport is only on Travel Domain list. There are some spells that can mimic effect like some tree travel from druid but they are not so efficient as Teleport. Also as domain spell you can cast It only once. In most cases you will need two teleports or even more if some wizard will be after you.

You have patron deity and have restricted domain list and You are part of church with gives plenty benefits. Or you can be cleric that only believe in certain ideas represented by domains.

But this would stop you from going into some very nice Prc like Church Inquisitor or radiant Servant. The problem could be also with resurrection if you are non-believer.

If you prepare good cleric spell lists and know at least core spells you can start from higher level like 5-7.

We'll probably go with the spell point variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) it should be able to be as many times we have spell points for, as long as I'm not missing something with that variant.

Indeed. Free weapon proficiencies, full speed in plate, and your standard clericzillaism stuff makes this beastly.

That's just a small damage die and AC bonus though. Not that much for late game. :/

Faily

2013-12-08, 12:55 PM

Also at Mystic Wanderer, there's nothing in it that implies being a Monk is needed. It's something that looks like a pure Cleric could take and still get the AC bonus from.

Monk is not needed though, but once you're already not wearing armor, you might as well also get Monk-bonus to AC (Monk's belt, Monk-dipping and/or progressing into Sacred Fist). The Class Ability of Mystic Wanderer is quite specific that it requires that you do not wear armor. But yes, you could go pure Cleric and still benefit from it, but not while wearing armor (as most Clerics prefer to do).

Magic of Faerun, pg. 36
Glory of the Divine (Su): A Mystic Wanderer who wears no armor gains a sacred (or profane, if her patron deity is evil) bonus to AC equal to her Charisma bonus (if any).

Though if you got really good Wisdom, Charisma and Dexterity, you could just skip the armor entirely and wear a Monk's Belt for the Wisdom bonus to AC.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 01:28 PM

Monk is not needed though, but once you're already not wearing armor, you might as well also get Monk-bonus to AC (Monk's belt, Monk-dipping and/or progressing into Sacred Fist). The Class Ability of Mystic Wanderer is quite specific that it requires that you do not wear armor. But yes, you could go pure Cleric and still benefit from it, but not while wearing armor (as most Clerics prefer to do).

Magic of Faerun, pg. 36
Glory of the Divine (Su): A Mystic Wanderer who wears no armor gains a sacred (or profane, if her patron deity is evil) bonus to AC equal to her Charisma bonus (if any).

Though if you got really good Wisdom, Charisma and Dexterity, you could just skip the armor entirely and wear a Monk's Belt for the Wisdom bonus to AC.

Oh I'm not arguing that monks belt doesn't work in the slightest. :P

I'm just stating that you don't to waste a character level on monk to gain the prestige classes benefit.

Schizek

2013-12-08, 02:15 PM

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.

With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.

We'll probably go with the spell point variant it should be able to be as many times we have spell points for, as long as I'm not missing something with that variant.

Even in spell point variant I doubt that any MG will let you cast more than one domain spell per spell lvl. Domain spells should be unique in a way that they give often a access to wizard/paladin/other spells.

Ahahahahahano.

Thrown weapons. Celerity and Trickery domains. Scorching ray. Flame strike. Cloud of knives. Light of Lunia. Magic stone. Haste. Footsteps of the divine.
Throw weapon use dex to hit where full plate dwarf will have score of 10 they are not suited to fight with flying enemies because of range increment.

Celerity Domain give Haste on lvl 4 and its domain bonus of 10ft speed bonus is not apply if you wear heavy armor.

All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.
Dwarf with haste will have 40ft speed with is still not very much. Celerity domain very rare and not many gods have it .

Light of Lunia- 2k6 with range 30 feet ? Again it is ranged touch on lvl 7 your dwarf will have +7 to hit with that.

Magic Stone again 1d6+1 and ranged attack to make with range increment of 20 feet.

Footsteps of the divine- 1 round per lvl but If your deity don't give fly by default it is only 1/2 lvl duration.

My point is that in any team there should be someone that can take care of flying enemies and team should have one or preferably more ways to escape from combat if they are not prepared enough.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 02:46 PM

Even in spell point variant I doubt that any MG will let you cast more than one domain spell per spell lvl. Domain spells should be unique in a way that they give often a access to wizard/paladin/other spells.

Then that would be the DM house-ruling on the variant.
Because as the variant is written, domains aren't limited to once per day.

johnbragg

2013-12-08, 03:09 PM

If you're using the Spell Point UA variant, do you think you should use the Spontaneous Divine Caster, where they have Spells Known as Sorcerer?

Lord Vukodlak

2013-12-08, 03:09 PM

If you do go with it, make them all dwarves.

I don't have a party of all clerics but I do have a party of all dwarves.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 03:15 PM

If you're using the Spell Point UA variant, do you think you should use the Spontaneous Divine Caster, where they have Spells Known as Sorcerer?

Cleric just seems more fun with all the stuff we can do and all the religion campaign ideas we can do with it.

Schizek

2013-12-08, 03:20 PM

A character who would normally receive bonus spells from a class feature (such as from wizard specialization or access to a domain) can instead prepare extra spells of the appropriate levels, domains, and/or schools. The character doesn’t get any extra spell points (and thus can’t cast any more spells than normal), but the added flexibility of being able to use the bonus spell more than once per day makes up for that.

You are right, Cleric in this variant could cast domain spell as much he want. But he will not get extra points for domain slots. In the end it is trade in more flexibility but less spells per day.

This variant is nice but only from higher lvls.
"Normal" Cleric lvl 5 will cast 5x 1lvl , 4x 2lvl, 3x 3lvl

Spell Point- Cleric lvl 5 with 17 Wis will cast 5x 3lvl spells or
3x 1lvl, 2 x lvl2, 3x3lv spells

From levels 8-10 where number of spells is not so important spell point variant for cleric will be much better.

D4rkh0rus

2013-12-08, 03:30 PM

I got an idea (But it requires some knowledge of the 40k lore), if your taking new storyline suggestions, that is.

Ahem. the five clerics are in a closed room, discussing about candles and solars (like all goody goody sun god clerics do)
When suddenly... a gas leak from some undiscovered subterranean well enters the room. The clerics at first, do not notice it, too concentrated in the debate whether Scented candles are more or less religious than normal ones... And by the time they do.... its too late.

They begin having a group hallucination, where a Tall, fully armored man walks up to them and tells them of his ideals and empire. Of how Humanity will be destroyed by strange invaders from other planes, And how the world had to be purged and rid of all inhuman scum that littered it. While talking, this figure shined and glowed, and it filled them with inspiration and awe.

Thus, after this "vision" the five clerics set out to destroy all that is not human, while slowly trying to gather an army of (human) followers of this new god, whom they called... "The Emperor"

domains could be like Sun, Spell/magic (psychic abilities), Planning, etc.

what? Delusional clerics on a crusade? Pro background.

Fax Celestis

2013-12-08, 05:00 PM

That's just a small damage die and AC bonus though. Not that much for late game. :/
So, a bonus at low levels (when it matters) and no real unmitigable downsides at high levels (when your base racial and weapon stats matter the least)?

Isn't that, like, the definition of min-maxing?

Fax Celestis

2013-12-08, 05:02 PM

Even in spell point variant I doubt that any MG will let you cast more than one domain spell per spell lvl. Domain spells should be unique in a way that they give often a access to wizard/paladin/other spells.

Throw weapon use dex to hit where full plate dwarf will have score of 10 they are not suited to fight with flying enemies because of range increment.

Celerity Domain give Haste on lvl 4 and its domain bonus of 10ft speed bonus is not apply if you wear heavy armor.

Dwarf with haste will have 40ft speed with is still not very much. Celerity domain very rare and not many gods have it .

Light of Lunia- 2k6 with range 30 feet ? Again it is ranged touch on lvl 7 your dwarf will have +7 to hit with that.

Magic Stone again 1d6+1 and ranged attack to make with range increment of 20 feet.

Footsteps of the divine- 1 round per lvl but If your deity don't give fly by default it is only 1/2 lvl duration.

My point is that in any team there should be someone that can take care of flying enemies and team should have one or preferably more ways to escape from combat if they are not prepared enough.
Because obv. Dwarves are incapable of being zen archer clerics.

Lord Vukodlak

2013-12-08, 05:13 PM

Throw weapon use dex to hit where full plate dwarf will have score of 10 they are not suited to fight with flying enemies because of range increment.
Brutal throw feet replace dex with strength, or zen archery for wisdom to hit.

Yeah and with no Travel Domain, 20ft speed, no hiding skills or ranged attack they will get killed by flying enemy with CR-3.
Clerics do have ranged offensive spells.

Gwazi Magnum

2013-12-08, 05:17 PM

Faily

2013-12-08, 09:07 PM

Clerics do have ranged offensive spells.

That, and if the enemy is flying through magical means, they're just one Dispel attempt away from falling back down (and there are spells to take care of those with natural wing-power as well).

Clerics can also use a Crossbow even if they're not Zen Archers. And what's with this assumption that a Dwarf Cleric will definatly be in Full Plate and have a Dexterity of 10? Unless you're a Gold Dwarf, there is no Racial penalty to Dexterity, so they could very well have a 12, 13, 14, etc... depending on where you allocated points/how the dice rolled. :smalltongue:

Dwarves also have 20ft movement speed no matter what, even if wearing Full Plate Armor. They're nice like that.

I've played enough Clerics myself (they're my favorite class, to the point where most people who play D&D with me kinda groan when they see I rolled a Cleric again) to know that they're quite capable of being the party's artillery-machine.

Rebel7284

2013-12-08, 09:43 PM

"Caster" cleric.
Cloistered Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 2/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Dweomerkeeper +8/x2

Feats: Magical Training, Spell Focus Illusion, Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic [Heighten Spell], Initiate of Mystra.

"Fighter" cleric
Cloistered Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Prestige Paladin 1/x7

Feats: Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic [persist]

"Rogue" Cleric
Race Kobold for Kobold domain.
Cloistered Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 10/x 5

Feats: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Dmm persist, Martial Study, Martial Stance(thicket of blades), Craven

Brookshw

2013-12-09, 05:45 AM

A party of four clerics (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/03/20/episode-007-kamehameha-or-something/)? That'll never work (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2010/02/20/episode-1221-longest-set-up-in-webcomic-history/)!

Totema

2013-12-09, 05:57 AM

Reminds me of an idea I had to make an all-bard party. Instead of going on an adventure, we were going to go on tour.

Schizek

2013-12-09, 07:02 AM

Because obv. Dwarves are incapable of being zen archer clerics.

With heavy feat investment and resignation of DMM, yes they are capable.

Clerics can also use a Crossbow even if they're not Zen Archers
Crossbows with reload are not very powerful on lvl >5.

Dwarves also have 20ft movement speed no matter what, even if wearing Full Plate Armor. They're nice like that.
Human in heavy plate also have 20ft speed. Nice things about Dwarfs clerics is not theirs speed in Plate Armor but:
+2 Constitution
+Darkvision
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+Stability

This make them better Clerics than Humans because its improve melee combat and help with clerics weakens(reflex).

Gwendol

2013-12-09, 07:33 AM

Actually, being slowed down by armor does matter. A dwarf in medium/heavy armor can tumble (impossible if slowed down by armor) among other things. Spiritual weapon is a 2nd level spell that takes care of most ranged combat.

erikun

2013-12-09, 08:09 AM

One fun thing that a friend pointed out to me is that Boots of Striding and Springing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofStridingandSpringing) are a thing for dwarves who are worried about their base land speed. Assuming, of course, that they haven't just replaced it with a magical flight method.

I believe there was a D&D fantasy novel on this, The Cleric Quintet. Haven't read it, but maybe worth looking at.

Any ideas on why clerics of different faiths would work together?
The Cleric Quintet is a quintet of books (five of them) featuring a single protagonist cleric, Cadderly. The actual party features said cleric, a fighter, a barbarian/druid, and a monk. There are other clerics in the book, but pretty much all of them are scholars, most without even any spellcasting ability.

The Lady Penitent trilogy is a better example of the differences with multiple clerics. It is a drow story (and so you need to deal with drow) but it features clerics from nearly every drow deity, ranging from "standard" clerics to assassins, to warriors, to necromancers.

But the Clerics of different faiths puzzles me. I can understand it if it's all branches of the same God (which the mechanics don't account for). But if it's all different religions all I can imagine is them fighting each other over which religion is true.

Granted, this is D&D and not real life where all the gods actually do exist. So maybe that concern is unfounded. But I would still be questioning of why they aren't fighting over which religion is best.
Probably for the same reason that elves/dwarves can work together and not continuously fight over while race is best. Most adventurers are willing to put aside their differences and help each other, y'know, stay alive through the end of the day.