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Peregrine
2007-01-15, 02:29 PM
For a while, I've wanted some simple, coherent rules that mesh well with the core rules, for the creation of underage characters. (For me, I primarily see it as useful for NPCs, but I don't see why others shouldn't be able to play underage PCs, if the DM runs it right.) Here's the beginnings of my own ruleset.

Infant
Size two categories smaller than adult
Roll first d6 for ability scores.
Apply a -3 age penalty to mental ability scores (minimum 1)

Child
Size one category smaller than adult
Roll second d6 for ability scores
Reduce age penalty to mental ability scores to -2 (minimum 1)

Youth
Size same category as adult
Choose a youth feat
Roll third d6 for ability scores
Reduce age penalty to mental ability scores to -1

Adult
Choose first class level
Roll final d6 for ability scores and drop lowest result
Remove age penalty to mental ability scores

Things I've yet to do:
Write youth feats. There will be one for each class (at least to start with; I might come up with non-class ones later). The feat represents training (or the beginnings of natural aptitude, where 'training' as such is inappropriate) in a given class. Its benefit is subsumed into the class if you take a level in it at first level (or perhaps at any level?), and you then pick a 1st-level feat normally. If you take another class instead, your youth feat becomes your 1st-level feat. These feats will generally consist of the ability to pick skill points from the class skill list, and a cut-down class feature. (You can take an inappropriate feat, e.g. clerical training for a low-Wis character 'cause your parents forced you into it. This will mean you don't get the cut-down class feature -- probably an orison or two in this case, so a minimum Wis 10 -- but you'd still get the skill points).
Work out how to place skill points (i.e. how many, and which skills are class skills). This will be easy enough with youth feats, but really, you should theoretically get some skill points right from Child age. Maybe I'll just make it 0+Int, no class skills?
Work out hit points! I'm leaning towards fractional HD for each age, but I need a way to make the transition to your class HD smooth.
Work out the age cutoffs for the different races.

Glooble Glistencrist
2007-01-15, 02:57 PM
Looks like a good start. I've been wishing something like this would come along for a long time. My suggestion would be to roll all adult ability scores first then just grant them in the manner you've proposed. In a point-buy system, you could modify this to grant a fraction of the points at infancy, more at chilhood,etc. That way your eventual ability scores could be used to calculate certain things, such as skill points. Since everyone is going to get at least their int. modifier X4 at first level, why not use that as a basis- as in a child has skills equal to its eventual intelligence modifier at infancy, its modifier X2 at childhood, its int. modifier X3 as a youth - or something like that.
I think babies should have high charisma, if there's a way to make that work. Your system would have them with a maximum of 6, and that just doesn't make sense. Also I'm not sure intelligence should increase with age - intelligence represents your ability to learn, which if anything dulls with age. Keeping intelligence consistant would also make skill points much easier.
Just some things to consider.

Machete
2007-01-15, 05:47 PM
A strength penalty should apply to younglings because they aren't as strong as a full grown adult. Maybe a small dexterity bonus. Wisdom penalty. Charisma should be the same, lack of experience balances out cuteness. Constitution should be the same.

Intelligence is tough, but a child having lower intelligence could represent not having learned all they can yet.

HP should be calculated as a fraction of their first level HP.

These are just my thoughts. I like the sizes you have.

Mr Teufel
2007-01-15, 06:12 PM
I'd roll/buy the full adult Int, then add penalties to the modifier based on the stage of childhood. And perhaps (Int mod x1) skill points at childhood, (Int mod x2) at adolescence.

I've tried once to do this up as a template.

Daracaex
2007-01-15, 07:52 PM
Isn't Charisma a character's willpower? Strength of personality? I'd think children would have it lower, like he has it. The way he has worked out now gives infants one d6 for stats, children 2d6, and youths 3d6. This already shows the decreased scores just fine for a greater than average hero. So a baby with a roll of 6 on his strength turns out like Bam-bam from the Flintstones. Or one with a 6 in his inteligence would be a child prodigy, learning very quickly. Also, the increased die show how a child can develope differently in different stages of his life. Maybe a child who loved sports and running around (high physical stats) decided to focus more on his studies when he grew up a little (rolled low on his physical stats the second time around) and thus didn't develope himself all the way to what an adult would have. The system makes perfect sense to me.

So what are these youth feats?

Peregrine
2007-01-16, 12:31 AM
My suggestion would be to roll all adult ability scores first then just grant them in the manner you've proposed.

I thought about that. But then I figured, rolling all at once feels like predestination; rolling as you go feels like life events can modify the final result. (Roll a 6 in your youth, you had a really good education, or something.)


I think babies should have high charisma, if there's a way to make that work. Your system would have them with a maximum of 6, and that just doesn't make sense.

As Daracaex says later, Charisma is your personal presence and willpower. Children might know how to be cute to get their way, but that might be better represented by (say) a Diplomacy bonus to elders of their own race (and possibly others). They still don't have very good confidence and bearing in the face of adults.


Also I'm not sure intelligence should increase with age - intelligence represents your ability to learn, which if anything dulls with age. Keeping intelligence consistant would also make skill points much easier.
Just some things to consider.

It would, but keep in mind that Intelligence does increase as you rise through the core age categories as well. To me, it's partly how much you know, partly how well you reason things out, and partly how well you learn. At least two out of three of these tend to increase with age.


A strength penalty should apply to younglings because they aren't as strong as a full grown adult. Maybe a small dexterity bonus. Wisdom penalty. Charisma should be the same, lack of experience balances out cuteness. Constitution should be the same.

Intelligence is tough, but a child having lower intelligence could represent not having learned all they can yet.

Again, as Daracaex says, you do get lower ability scores. (I'm wondering if a size penalty to Str should apply, when you're a smaller size category.) Constitution shouldn't be the same on the grounds that children aren't as hardy as adults, up to about the Youth level. And one thing I like about my system is that in some cases, your physical scores will improve from Youth to Adult, and sometimes they won't. Some people do toughen up and/or get less clumsy from their teens to their twenties, and some don't.

There's a thought. Puberty penalty to Dex? :smallwink:


HP should be calculated as a fraction of their first level HP.

The problem being, you don't pick a class until adulthood. The Youth feats (will) represent gravitating towards a class, but even then you can change.


Isn't Charisma a character's willpower? Strength of personality? I'd think children would have it lower, like he has it. The way he has worked out now gives infants one d6 for stats, children 2d6, and youths 3d6. This already shows the decreased scores just fine for a greater than average hero. So a baby with a roll of 6 on his strength turns out like Bam-bam from the Flintstones. Or one with a 6 in his inteligence would be a child prodigy, learning very quickly. Also, the increased die show how a child can develope differently in different stages of his life. Maybe a child who loved sports and running around (high physical stats) decided to focus more on his studies when he grew up a little (rolled low on his physical stats the second time around) and thus didn't develope himself all the way to what an adult would have. The system makes perfect sense to me.

Yeah, what he said. (Thanks!)


So what are these youth feats?

I'm glad you asked. :smallwink:

Wild Upbringing [Youth]
[AKA Angry Young Man/Woman/Elf/etc. :smalltongue:]
You spent your youth on the wild frontier, learning to tap your animal instincts to survive.
Benefit: Once per day, you can rage, as the barbarian class feature, except that the benefits are +2 to Strength, +2 to Constitution, and +1 morale bonus to Will saves.
You may assign the skill points you gain in your youth as if the following skills were class skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride, Survival, and Swim.
Special: If your first class level is in the barbarian class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Temple Education [Youth]
You were educated in the ways of the priesthood as a youth, grooming you for the clerical life.
Benefit: You learn a number of orisons (0-level cleric spells) equal to your base Wisdom modifier in your youth. You may prepare and cast one of these per day, as a cleric does, as long as you have a Wisdom of 10 or higher.
You may assign the skill points you gain in your youth as if the following skills were class skills:
Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, and Spellcraft. If you are tutored by clerics with the Animal, Plant, Knowledge, Travel or Trickery domains, you may add the skills specified by these domains to this list.
Special: If your first class level is in the cleric class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

There's two I just now knocked together. Of course, I still haven't decided how you gain skill points in your youth. (Thanks for your suggestions, all.) And I'm definitely thinking the feat should be subsumed into the class benefits if you ever take a level in the class -- but should you then immediately gain another feat? Or can you only swap it, so to speak, at first level?

I'm also thinking about race-specific benefits... when are they gained?

Altharis
2007-01-16, 01:27 AM
Cool! I agree that rolling dice along the stages of life sounds cool, but it will make it impossible to have good adventure as kids. So I propose this thing: Default bonuses: Have die rolls equal to youth, and then add two for each die missing. Example: Gram the Child is going hunting lizards with his friends, so he'll need some stats. He rolls a 6 and a 4 in strength! He's strong! so we add 2 proxy dice of 2, to make 4d6, and then drop the lowest. Which in his case is 2. He gets a 12 to strength! Which is good, but not as good as an adult could have gotten.

See? And I would drop modifiers for youth, because we are all different, and abilities are slightly relative.

Peregrine
2007-01-16, 10:15 AM
See?

...not sure I do... let me look at this again. Infant, 1d6/2/2/2 drop lowest, scoring anywhere from 6 to 10. Child, 1d6/1d6/2/2 drop lowest, scoring from 5(!) to 14. Youth, 1d6/1d6/1d6/2 drop lowest, scoring from 4 (we're getting progressively worse here) to 18. Adult, 1d6/1d6/1d6/1d6 drop lowest, for the standard 3 to 18.

No, I don't think it works. Maybe if each proxy die was a 1, not a 2? Infants get 3 to 8, children get 3 to 13, youths get 3 to 18, adults get 3 to 18 (with a higher chance of higher scores).


And I would drop modifiers for youth, because we are all different, and abilities are slightly relative.

My problem with this is the 'newborn genius' potential. As it is, they can have from 1 to 3 Int at birth, which means they could be just smart enough to talk (although I'll probably have language be acquired as a child, which will be from about toddler age).

Anyway. I'm still working on the much-anticipated Childhood Skill System™. I've left this post on hold for several hours to see if I could hammer out something to go with temporarily. I haven't. See, the Int thing isn't the problem; just make Int-based skill point gains retroactive and voila. The problem is making sure you have the right number of skill points when you take your first class level; and if you don't, making sure that any excess is within allowable bounds for a first-level feat. (Shortfalls are easy; just give the character more, up to a certain amount anyway. But if we have extra, we don't want to take them away.)

The easiest way would just be to give increments of 2+Int mod skill points (probably something like 2+Int at Child, (2+Int)x2 at Youth, 2+Int at Adult), then make up the shortfall with bonus points at Adult (2+Int classes get none, 4+Int classes get 8, 6+Int classes get 16, 8+Int classes get 24). But that's an awful lot of learning to pile on all of a sudden. It needs more thought...

(The other issue is what class skills, if any, we let the character buy. But extending the youth feat idea to child level, giving child characters a list of class skills depending on their focus, should work. Default characters, those built at 1st level, are assumed to have had the same focus right through, thus they get just the default class skills. Characters who broaden out more may have lower max ranks to compensate, or something.)

knightsaline
2007-01-16, 09:41 PM
how about these for wannabe fighters,barbarians, paladins and sorcerers?

weapons training [youth]
you had an aptitude towards certain weapons and are being trained by your towns weaponsmaster
benefit: you are automatically proficient in simple weapons. choose 4 martial weapons. you are concidered proficient in their use
you may assign your skillpoints gained as a youth to the following skills Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Special: If your first class level is in the fighter,barbarian or paladin classes, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. you gain the rest of the weapon proficiencies when you take your first level of fighter


magic in the blood [youth]
you seemed different from the other younglings of your birthplace. you seemed to be able to make small things move just by pointing at them.
Benefit: choose 2 cantrips. you may cast these 5 times a day. you may cast them in any order, but the total number of castings cannot exceed 5. the spells are CHA based
you may assign your skillpoints gained as a youth to the following skills. Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Special: If your first class level is in the sorcerer class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. you gain other benefits of the sorcerer class when you take 1st level in sorcerer

Daracaex
2007-01-17, 12:48 AM
But what's the use of these feats unless they have a use when you actually get into character levels? Sure, it's no big deal if you go to Fighter or Sorcerer, and it might even be handy to have the four martial weapon proficiencies if your a class that doesn't grant them, but if you take the weapon one and decode to go Paladin? Or Barbarian? You've just wasted a feat for no reason.

(PS: I stared at your sig for five minutes having deja-vu before figuring out that it was A-2)

Peregrine
2007-01-17, 01:08 AM
Yeah, for that reason, I think the fighter-training feat should be something more like granting a fighter bonus feat -- the only really fighter-specific thing. Certainly it can grant some weapon proficiencies too, but maybe not that many.

Magic in the Blood might be a bit powerful, with 5 cantrips/day. Or else Temple Education was too weak. In any case, it should specify that you cast from Charisma, as a sorcerer.

knightsaline
2007-01-17, 05:53 PM
Magic in the Blood might be a bit powerful, with 5 cantrips/day. Or else Temple Education was too weak. In any case, it should specify that you cast from Charisma, as a sorcerer.

its not 5 different cantrips, its 5 castings of 2 cantrips. anyone notice I edited the weapons training feat? forgot that sorcs cast with cha. must edit again!

Talyn
2007-01-17, 07:52 PM
Ooh, I've got one for wannabe paladins! (The name needs work, I know.)

Squire [Youth]

You had a dream or other divine visitation, and you have begun your training as a holy warrior.

Requirements: Youth, Lawful Good alignment.
Benefit: You gain proficiency with shields and one martial weapon of your choice. You can now detect evil a number of times/day equal to your CHA modifier, if positive (minimum one). You may assign your skillpoints gained as a youth to the following skills: Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge: Nobility (Int), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Ride (Dex), and Profession (Wis).
Special:If your first class level is in the paladin class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. You gain other benefits of the paladin class when you take 1st level in paladin.

pyrefiend
2007-01-18, 07:44 PM
This seems like a great idea for a solid children system. I was disappointed the RAW didn't have one, thus denying me the ability to play a freakish evil cleric child. But alas, that is behind me now, and I have some youth feats.

Demonic Youth [Youth]
You were born with bizzare eldrich power, and were able to channel the unholy energy at a young age.
Benefit: You may use an eldrich blast a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier. The blast is the same as the warlock class feature in every way except that it causes 1d4 nonlethal damage. You may assign your skill points in: Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Intimidate, Jump, and Sence Motive.
Special: If your first class level is in the warlock class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Manifesting Affinity [Youth]
You were born with a uncanny ability to create small items and sway the opinions of others with your mind.
Benefit: You know 2 first level psionic powers, and have a number of power points equal to your inteligence modifier -1, minimum one power point. Your effective manifesting level is that of a first level psion You may assign skill points in Concentration, Knowledge (any two subjects of your choice), and Psicraft.
Special: If your first class level is in the psion class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Elemental Upbringing [Youth]
You are more in tune with the elements when you were six than most are their whole lives.
Benefit: You know 2 orisons drawn from the shugenja spell list, which are usable a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier (minimum 1 spell per day). You may also use the sence elements class ability the same way a shugenja does, except any spellcraft check you make with respect to the ability is at a -5 penalty. You may assign skill points in: Concentration, Heal, Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcane, and one other of your choice), and Spelcraft.
Special: If your first class level is in the shugenja class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

geez3r
2007-01-18, 09:21 PM
The only thing I would suggest is to give the younger classes a minor bonus to Con. Honestly, watch a kid 7 years old or younger, you get tired just looking at them, an adult cannot keep up with them. Furthermore, young kids have a tendency to bounce back from accidents that would leave a full grown adult laid out for quite some time. Then again, it can also take very little for a child to burst into tears....

Peregrine
2007-01-18, 10:41 PM
Thanks for the help, all! :smallsmile:


its not 5 different cantrips, its 5 castings of 2 cantrips.

Yeah, I'm just saying, 5 cantrips/day (even if they're just the same 2 cantrips known) is better than Temple Education. But then, I've just come up with the first candidate for the skill system, and the sorcerer-oriented youth feat can afford to be more powerful. (See below for more.)


Ooh, I've got one for wannabe paladins! (The name needs work, I know.)

Maybe, maybe not, I can't think of a better name. The feat looks good in any case. (Child whispers: "I see evil people...")


This seems like a great idea for a solid children system. I was disappointed the RAW didn't have one, thus denying me the ability to play a freakish evil cleric child. But alas, that is behind me now, and I have some youth feats.

Thanks! I probably wouldn't have been able to do the non-core classes without help. I'm really quite pleased at how people have taken to contributing. :smallredface:


The only thing I would suggest is to give the younger classes a minor bonus to Con. Honestly, watch a kid 7 years old or younger, you get tired just looking at them, an adult cannot keep up with them. Furthermore, young kids have a tendency to bounce back from accidents that would leave a full grown adult laid out for quite some time. Then again, it can also take very little for a child to burst into tears....

Maybe not to Con, but perhaps a bonus to Con checks to resist fatigue, and perhaps to saves against injury?

So far these bonuses have been mooted: Bonus to diplomacy with adults (at least of their own type)
Bonus to Con checks to resist fatigue
Bonus to Fort saves to resist injury

Anyway, now to the long-awaited Childhood Skill System™! (mark 1) It's not perfect (it doesn't assign skill points to children like I wanted and gives too many to adults for my tastes), but it means that the most that a character can end up ahead on skill points is +6 (if you train as a rogue in your youth then switch to sorcerer, for instance), which isn't too bad -- it will cost you your first level feat, so considering its limitations and the fact that you can take Open-Minded any time for +5 skill points, it's about right to my mind (though admittedly it lets you pump some skills that end up being cross-class -- maybe I should compensate for that).

Anyway.

Classes that gain skill points per level of...
2+Int mod: The corresponding youth feat grants 2+Int mod skill points. If you take a level in such a class at first level, you gain (2+Int mod)x3 skill points.
4+Int mod: The corresponding youth feat grants 4+Int mod skill points. If you take a level in such a class at first level, you gain (4+Int mod)x3 skill points.
6+Int mod: The corresponding youth feat grants 6+Int mod skill points. If you take a level in such a class at first level, you gain (6+Int mod)x3 skill points.
8+Int mod: The corresponding youth feat grants 8+Int mod skill points. If you take a level in such a class at first level, you gain (8+Int mod)x3 skill points.

Any permanent increase to your Intelligence modifier upon reaching adulthood (or earlier, conceivably, but no later) grants retroactive skill points. (Theoretically, you could get dumber, so you'd have to lose skill points retroactively.)

So. At best, you can get 6 extra skill points at adulthood. At worst, you can be 6 skill points behind at adulthood, say if you show sorcerous promise in your youth but become a rogue. So the youth feats for 2+Int mod classes can afford to be somewhat more powerful than those that grant more skill points.

Thoughts?

knightsaline
2007-01-18, 11:00 PM
Ooh, I've got one for wannabe paladins! (The name needs work, I know.)

Squire [Youth]

You had a dream or other divine visitation, and you have begun your training as a holy warrior.

could this apply to wannabe knights? not just holy knights (like the paladin) but those who wish to follow the path of hextor and be LE. anyone who wants to be a knight of heirionious should just be a paladin.

Glooble Glistencrist
2007-01-19, 11:53 AM
I'll give this a shot:

Musically Gifted [Youth]

You have shown an early affinity for music and performance, and a fascination with stories and lore. Your music moves other children and adults.

Benefit: You can fascinate (as the bardic musical ability) one creature per day, provided you have the requisite ranks in a perform skill. You may assign your skillpoints gained as a youth to the following skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge(Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha),Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) and Use Magic Device (Cha)

Special:If your first class level is in the bard class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. You gain other benefits of the bard class when you take 1st level in bard.

Is this too powerful? It's hard to give out a reduced version of any Bardic abilities,since they start out pretty weak anyway.

Another question: At what point is alignment determined? I mean, you'd think an infant would be neutral, having had no time to formulate a worldview, but what about children? Can a four-year-old be truly good or evil? It's hard to say.

Peregrine
2007-01-19, 12:03 PM
Another question: At what point is alignment determined? I mean, you'd think an infant would be neutral, having had no time to formulate a worldview, but what about children? Can a four-year-old be truly good or evil? It's hard to say.

They may not really comprehend their actions as altruistic or malicious, but on the other hand that just lends a kind of sincerity to their actions. Rather than try to adjudicate this, I'm just going to say, yes, children can have alignments. Then if someone specifically wants to say of a particular child character, 'he isn't good or evil because he doesn't really comprehend his impact on others', they can make that specific child Neutral.

Talyn
2007-01-19, 01:19 PM
Good call on the alignment, Peregrine. Besides, children have "instinctive" pulls towards certain alignments, even at very young ages.

A tendency to comfort others (toddler brings his blankie to a crying parent without really understanding why) might be Good. A tendency towards greed (steals toys or food from other very young children, or hurts them when denied) would be Evil. A child that is always at Mom's side or who wants structured activities like storytime might be Lawful, whereas one who gets bored easily, always explores, and wants to play freeform games like 'Let's Pretend' would be chaotic.

Peregrine
2007-01-19, 01:48 PM
Suggested age boundaries for the core races...

{table=head]Race|Childhood|Youth|Adulthood
Human|2|8|15
Dwarf|4|22|40
Elf|11|60|110
Gnome|4|22|40
Half-elf|2|11|20
Half-orc|1|7|14
Halfling|2|10|20[/table]

One thing I really need to keep in mind is that 'youth' is not 'adolescence'; by RAW, characters are considered adults from squarely in the middle of their adolescence, if humans are anything to go by. Youth is just 'older childhood'.

Daracaex
2007-01-19, 04:35 PM
Good call on the alignment, Peregrine. Besides, children have "instinctive" pulls towards certain alignments, even at very young ages.

A tendency to comfort others (toddler brings his blankie to a crying parent without really understanding why) might be Good. A tendency towards greed (steals toys or food from other very young children, or hurts them when denied) would be Evil. A child that is always at Mom's side or who wants structured activities like storytime might be Lawful, whereas one who gets bored easily, always explores, and wants to play freeform games like 'Let's Pretend' would be chaotic.See Example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Are these feats really such a big deal from a power standpoint? I know they might be with the skill system you just worked out, but alone, do they really equate to losing a feat if the child decides he wants to grow up to be something else? As long as everybody gets one, it's balanced. It's like everyone gets that bonus feat, including the bad guys. Then it balances it out. And I really don't think that 5 castings of 2 cantrips are going to make a very large difference in any character.

Or maybe if you want to keep everything the same, you can give the feats small upgrades for when a child reaches adulthood, so that they aren't a total waste.

Peregrine
2007-01-19, 11:14 PM
Well, I want people who are aiming towards a class in youth, then take that class at first level, to be exactly the same as a character created at first level in that class. For compatibility with characters created by RAW, you see. So no, not everybody will have one -- that's why a character who takes the designated class gets to swap their youth feat for a normal first-level feat. Youth feats should be balanced against each other, and against other feats that are available at first level (which are sometimes more powerful than more general feats, because of the 'first level only' restriction).

Peregrine
2007-01-20, 01:18 PM
Another feat!

Novice Mage [Youth]
You spent your youth in the study of arcane magic.
Benefit: You are given a spellbook with three cantrips (0-level wizard spells) scribed in it. You may prepare and cast one of these per day, as a wizard does, as long as you have an Intelligence score of 10 or higher. You may also prepare read magic from memory. You cannot scribe spells into the spellbook yourself.
You may use spell trigger and spell completion items as if you had a class spell list of all cantrips; you are not considered to be of a high enough level to use spell completion items safely, even if the spell is one you can prepare.
You may assign the skill points you gain in your youth as if the following skills were class skills:
Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Profession, and Spellcraft.
Special: If your first class level is in the wizard class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. If you subsequently take a level in the wizard class, you retain the ability to prepare one of your three original cantrips each day, in addition to the spells per day granted by the wizard class; you may otherwise use the spellbook bestowed upon taking this feat as your normal wizard spellbook.

(Added that last bit just so that this feat still gives you something if you multiclass into wizard later. All the other youth feats still give some benefit if you take their related class later than first level, but until I added that, this gave nothing. I almost rejected it!)

PS At this stage, I would personally change Magic in the Blood to give two cantrips known, three per day. My opinion on this is subject to variation, and persuasion. :smalltongue:

Daracaex
2007-01-21, 07:03 PM
You're saying these are the equivalent of most 1st level feats? I'm not sure about my balance sense, but I am sure that being able to prep and cast one of three cantrips a day is not the equivalent of most feats at first level. They don't even lead into any trees.

And you have the adulthood ages posted higher up, but what about the different starting ages for different classes?

Peregrine
2007-01-21, 10:45 PM
Well, they're meant to be. Not the equivalent of the normal feats that are available at first level (like Power Attack and other things that lead into feat trees and stuff), but the equivalent of the somewhat more powerful first-level-only feats you see sometimes.

So if they're too weak, they can stand to be pumped up. I'm just not sure how. They still have to give you less than the first level in that class would.

Maybe if I gave a first-level spell too...?

GuesssWho
2007-01-22, 05:50 PM
Maybe the character can choose to switch feats when they 'grow up'?

Talyn
2007-01-23, 09:17 PM
Well, that wouldn't make sense that someone trained with weapons would "forget" how to use them if he became a wizard. I think these feats should actually be a little weaker than most other feats, to encourage people to play as adults what they trained to do as children.

And, if I may, another feat for your consideration. Again, the name needs work.

Urchin [Youth]
A childhood tendency towards larceny has trained your body and your mind and allowed you to hit hard when your opponent is distracted.
Benefit: You gain proficiency with two simple or martial weapons. These weapons must be drawn from the Rogue weapons list. When your target in combat is flanked, you gain the ability to sneak attack them for an additional 1d4 damage.
You may assign the skill points you gain in your youth as if the following skills were class skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Special: If your first class level is in the Rogue class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-01-24, 12:55 AM
Ok, let me give it a shot!

Nature's Acolyte [Youth]
You spent your youth in the care of a Druid circle or as a Ranger's apprentice
Benefit: You can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. You roll 1d20 and add your Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use this benefit, the youth and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
A youth cannot use this ability to influence a magical beast.
You may assign the skill points you gain in your youth as if the following skills were class skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Special: If your first class level is in the druid or ranger class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Peregrine
2007-01-24, 01:42 AM
Thanks for the additions! Urchin is much like what I was considering for rogues (right down to the 1d4 sneak attack damage); I think Delinquent was the best name I'd come up with so far. And Nature's Acolyte gives me an idea... more feats that cross class boundaries! Then you can have (say) a feat that grants some martial weapon proficiencies, and is subsumed at first level by all combat-oriented classes that grant all those proficiences. (Except that it's then rendered useless if you take such a class at some later level... but then, so is Martial Weapon Proficiency itself. If you're a wizard, say, who takes MWP (greatsword) for roleplaying reasons, and you later multiclass into fighter, you've lost a feat, basically.)

Here's my next idea: Heredity. How can we influence the child's ability rolls based on the parents' stats?

Talyn
2007-01-24, 07:32 AM
Are we going to allow child characters some kind of proficiency with simple weapons? Or maybe child-only weapons, a la Legend of Zelda... I mean, even the apprentice wizard should have a dagger, or something.

How about this? All children gain Weapon Proficiency: Child. All children are proficient with the following weapons: Dagger, Light club, Rock (thrown), Slingshot*, Toy sword*. This is in addition to any weapons they become proficient with by choosing their Youth feat.

*new weapons.

Slingshot (tiny simple ranged weapon)
Firing small, hard rocks or metal bullets, the slingshot is the weapon of choice for urchins and other urban dwellers. It is a relatively short-ranged weapon, with it's max range at the far end of its second range increment.
Damage 1d3, crit x2, range 20 ft. This weapon deals subdual damage - attempting to do normal damage applies a -4 penalty on attack rolls.

Toy sword (small simple weapon)
This simple weapon is a child's toy, but its solid construction makes it a passable substitute for a real sword in the hands of a young would-be hero.
Damage: 1d6, crit x2. This weapon deals subdual damage - attempting to do normal damage applies a -4 penalty on attack rolls.

Daracaex
2007-01-24, 09:12 PM
What about a sling? Don't many children learn to use one to play games and sometimes take out a small rabbit or two?

I'll give up my point on the youth feats. I guess what I was saying wasn't making much sense. That being said, please allow me to contribute. I have a few ideas I can use...

Also, youth feats are taken when the child becomes an actual youth, right? Meaning they are the same size category as their parents upon taking the feat?

Talyn
2007-01-24, 09:38 PM
Well, "adulthood" seems to mean as soon as you can conceivably gain your first heroic level (15 for humans), so I think that "youths" would be from nine-ish to 14 for humans... so, I guess it depends on how fast your character is growing up. A 14 year old would probably be medium-sized, but a 9-year old would still be small.

In regards to the sling - have you ever tried to use a medieval-style sling? It's HARD. It takes dozens of hours of practice to have even a chance at hitting a small, moving target. I think it would make sense that someone would have to spend a Youth Feat weapon proficiency on one. Also, I think maybe the toy sword should have a medium-sized version, as well. Toy Greatsword, maybe?

Toy Greatsword (medium sized simple weapon).
This is a solid wooden sword, used by children who want something bigger and heftier than the ordinary toy sword. This sword is weighted at the hilt to better mimic the weight and balance of a true weapon, and can even be used by adults as a training weapon.
Damage 1d8, crit x2. This weapon deals subdual damage - any attempt to deal normal damage with this weapon imposes a -4 penalty on all attack rolls.

Talyn
2007-01-30, 10:25 PM
*bump* Because this thread is too interesting to just fizzle away before we finalize it! I think I'm going to use at least some of this in my next campaign...

Neek
2007-02-01, 09:11 PM
A couple points.

Star Wars d20 (I think d20 Modern has one too) does feature a "Child Character" system; I don't say this to steal your thunder, but if you wanted more information about how other systems do it, I wouldn't have a problem providing it.

Alignment: I think the alignment rule should work dependent on the campaign. Certainly, children are rather unimpressionable (especially babies), but it depends on how you view alignment. If it is an aspect of any person's being or soul, then it's readily apparent at birth; if you view that alignment is a personal outlook, then children move from Neutral to any regular alignment.

I'd call the bonuses to Diplomacy, etc. to be circumstantial.

I'd rename "Childhood Feats" to something different, more like "Childhood Classes," these are packages that provide special class-like abilities, skill points, and skills; feats don't do nearly any of this. I would consider them 0-level classes.

Couple of questions:
Are there Childhood Classes/0-Level Classes, whatever you want to call them) that provide skills or bonuses that do not emulate current classes?
How are hit points resolved?
What if your 1st level class does not offer the same Class Skills that your Childhood Class would offer?

Peregrine
2007-02-02, 11:51 AM
Star Wars d20 (I think d20 Modern has one too) does feature a "Child Character" system; I don't say this to steal your thunder, but if you wanted more information about how other systems do it, I wouldn't have a problem providing it.

Thanks for that, I hadn't heard any such thing. I might look into it, although I'm very wary about stealing ideas, even inadvertently. As long as I remain unaware of their system, I can claim independent invention. :smallsmile:


Alignment: I think the alignment rule should work dependent on the campaign.

Agreed.


I'd call the bonuses to Diplomacy, etc. to be circumstantial.

Disagreed. 'Having a child's innate appealingness to adults' isn't what I'd call 'circumstantial'.


I'd rename "Childhood Feats" to something different, more like "Childhood Classes," these are packages that provide special class-like abilities, skill points, and skills; feats don't do nearly any of this. I would consider them 0-level classes.

Feats can grant class ability-like features, skill points, and class skills. It's just that these feats roll all of these together. You could call them 'classes' as well, but I don't think you'd gain much, and you'd lose the smoothness of changing paths between your youth feat and your first class level -- your youth feat becomes a normal feat.


Are there Childhood Classes/0-Level Classes, whatever you want to call them) that provide skills or bonuses that do not emulate current classes?

There could well be. Balancing them would be all kinds of interesting. At the moment I want to work out some kinks and get all the base classes represented.


How are hit points resolved?

No idea. :smallsmile: Rather like with skill points, going up isn't too much of a problem, but we want to avoid going down if at all possible.

Hey, brainwave. Give 'em all d6 hit die and then justify the drop for wizards by saying that early exposure to magic has a detrimental effect on health in adulthood. :smallbiggrin:


What if your 1st level class does not offer the same Class Skills that your Childhood Class would offer?

You keep your youth skills, as a benefit of the youth feat. But you now have fewer skill points to pump into your class skills, leaving you at a disadvantage relative to a character who pursued your class from their youth.

Glooble Glistencrist
2007-02-02, 02:44 PM
Hang on. From the player's Handbook:

Remember that you buy skills based on the class you have advanced in, so that only those skills given as class skills for that class can be purchased as class skills for this level, regardless of what other classes you might have levels in.
This means that if I'm a rogue and I take a level of Cleric, I can only spend my skill points for that level on Cleric class skills - Rogue class skills that aren't Cleric class skills count as cross-class.
But if my youth feat is in rogue, and I take my first level in Cleric, I get all the rogue class skills as class skills forever, without ever actually taking a level of rogue? To me that seems just a bit overpowered.

Peregrine
2007-02-02, 02:55 PM
But if my youth feat is in rogue, and I take my first level in Cleric, I get all the rogue class skills as class skills forever, without ever actually taking a level of rogue? To me that seems just a bit overpowered.

No, of course not. You get to spend your youth skill points as if you had a rogue's class skill set. But when you become a cleric, you spend your cleric skill points according to the cleric class skill set. So it's exactly the same as multiclassing from rogue to cleric -- you can't use the rogue class skill set to spend your cleric-level skill points.

(One difference to normal multiclassing may be the rank cap: normally, if you've ever had a skill as a class skill, your max ranks in that skill are 3+character level. But I think that youth feats will not grant actual class skills for this purpose, thus the rank cap will be at 2 for youths, as it is at 1st level.)

Neek
2007-02-02, 03:55 PM
Thanks for that, I hadn't heard any such thing. I might look into it, although I'm very wary about stealing ideas, even inadvertently. As long as I remain unaware of their system, I can claim independent invention. :smallsmile:

The system used in d20 Modern/Star Wars d20 calls for ability modifiers from the base score; I prefer this method.


Disagreed. 'Having a child's innate appealingness to adults' isn't what I'd call 'circumstantial'.

I consider childhood to be a circumstance; but I guess calling it whatever's not important--I don't disagree with how it works. Except that certain British nannies and some evil gods are immune to a child's diplomacy modifier.


Feats can grant class ability-like features, skill points, and class skills. It's just that these feats roll all of these together. You could call them 'classes' as well, but I don't think you'd gain much, and you'd lose the smoothness of changing paths between your youth feat and your first class level -- your youth feat becomes a normal feat.

Again, nomenclature's my only port of contention. The system and mechanics therein are something I'm completely satisfied with. This is a great system so far. :D


No idea. :smallsmile: Rather like with skill points, going up isn't too much of a problem, but we want to avoid going down if at all possible.

Hey, brainwave. Give 'em all d6 hit die and then justify the drop for wizards by saying that early exposure to magic has a detrimental effect on health in adulthood. :smallbiggrin:

The commoner's base hit die is d4; in terms of commoner Childhood feats, this would then mean that all kids are hardier than adults. And wizards, too. I'd say that each feat provides a base hit die until they hit young adulthood, and gain a character level. If the base character class has a lower hit die than the Childhood feat, then as a feat bonus, the difference can be carried over (so, say the Wild Upbringing gives the child a d6 hit die, but they go on to become a Sorcerer at first level, then they get a bonus +2 hp at first level as per their feat). Otherwise, if the hit die are the same or more, then the new hit die replaces the old. It's a little complicated in the wording, but I think it's a little fair-er.


You keep your youth skills, as a benefit of the youth feat. But you now have fewer skill points to pump into your class skills, leaving you at a disadvantage relative to a character who pursued your class from their youth.

Max cap of two ranks? Sounds good.

Korias
2007-02-03, 04:54 PM
Yeah, d4 Hit die is the best solution. Kids are, usualy, frail.
Anyway, I felt like making some new feats for the classes. I PMed the creator of the thread, and sent him some from Homebrew classes, but the ones I have for normal classes I can share.

Here ya go.

Monk Feats
Tae-Kwon Disciple (Offensive) [Youth]
You have learned from the monastic teachings and begun to train your body to become your weapon.
Benefit: You may deal 1d6 Damage with your unarmed strikes for subdual damage, or 1d3 point of lethal damage. This must be decided before you make the attack roll.
You may assign your skill points to the following skills, with a maximum of 2 ranks in a skill.
Balance, Climb, Swim, Tumble, Hide, Listen, Escape Artist.
Special: your first class level is in the Monk class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Tae Kwon Disciple (Defensive) [Youth]
Your body is a temple. You have learned from the monastic teachings to keep it at tip top condition, learning to percive your enemies blows before they strike.
Requirement: Wisdom 12
Benefit: You may add your Wisdom Modifier to AC.
Skills:Balance, Climb, Swim, Tumble, Hide, Listen, Escape Artist.
Special: your first class level is in the Monk class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Druid Youth Feats
Friend of the Beast. [Youth]
Spending your time admist the creatures of the woods has earned you respect amongst them. They know who you are, and respect you.
Benefit: Once a week, you may cast "Animal Friendship"you gain the benefit of an animal companion, whos HD may not exceed 1. You may teach it a total of 3 tricks + your wisdom modifier
Skills: Handle Animal, Survival, Heal, Jump, listen, Spot.
Special:your first class level is in the Druid class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Natural Cuisine [Youth]
You have a 6th sense when it comes to food of the wild.
Benefit: You may perfectly discern whether certain foods are edible, what plants are what, and if water is safe to drink or dangerous.
Class skills: Concentration, Survival, Jump, Hide, Spot, Listen.
Special:your first class level is in the Druid class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Ranger Youth Feats
Hunter [Youth]
You have learned to hunt down certain creatures, knowing how they think.
Benefit: You may select one kind of beast, magical beast, construct, animal, plant, or fey, as a favored enemy.
Class skills: As a ranger
Special:your first class level is in the Ranger class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. You may change this favored enemy to a different one upon taking your 1st level in Ranger, but otherwise you cannot change this Favored Enemy.

Psionic Warrior's Feat
Psionic Combat [Youth]
Your Mind can lash out to other's minds with your strange powers.
Benefit: You may have the use of a Psionic Combat Mode (offensive), And you may have a PP pool of 1d6+Combat's Atribute for this ability.
Special: if your first class level is in the Psychic Warrior class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Commoner Feat
Ordinary [Youth]
You are the son of a nobody, an ordinary person.
Benefit: As a Nobody, your your scores are generaly average. You may re-assign your ability scores by taking 2 points from any one score and re-assigining those 2 to another score.
Class Skills are: Handle ANimal, Climb, Craft, Profession, Spot, Ride, Listen.
Special: If your First level is in commoner, this feat is subsided into that particular class and you may pick your first level feat as normal. If not, then this becomes your first level feat.

Expert Feat
Wide Learner
You can learn many different skills and abilities, tailored to your own personality.
Benefit: You may select any 6 skills as class skills.
Special:If your First level is in Expert , this feat is subsided into that particular class and you may pick your first level feat as normal. If not, then this becomes your first level feat.


Warrior Feat
Martial Instinct
You fight the good fight.
Benefit: Your BAB is increased by 1.
Skills are:Climb, Ride, Jump, Swim, Intimidate.
Special:If your First level is in Warrior., this feat is subsided into that particular class and you may pick your first level feat as normal. If not, then this becomes your first level feat.

Favoured Soul
Destined
The plan the gods have for you is a mystery, but it is there. Your luck, whatever it is, seems to be higher than normal.
Benefit: Your saves are +1/+1/+1.
Class Skills Are: Climb, Jump, Sense Motive, Bluff, Listen, Spot.
Special:If your First level is in Favored Soul, this feat is subsided into that particular class and you may pick your first level feat as normal. If not, then this becomes your first level feat.

Edit: added The NPC classes and Favored Soul.

Talyn
2007-02-05, 07:10 PM
Ooh, I hadn't thought about NPC classes. Good call, there. You might want to consider allowing the Offensive Monk youth feat to do the full 1d4 lethal damage, just for balance reasons. I like the idea of having two different options for a youth feat that leads into a class.

Korias
2007-02-06, 02:26 PM
I couldnt think of one for the adept. Can you guys give me any ideas?

Korias
2007-02-06, 06:14 PM
Also, Dont be shy to add Homebrew classes! We should keep this thing going! We also need PHB2 classes, the Adept Class, and Champion class.

Neek
2007-02-07, 02:11 AM
I can't figure the Adept out yet... but...

[Spell]
Retroaging
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Short (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Retroaging reverses the effects of time on a target, taking them back years. Retroaging causes the target to age backwards one age category. The target is considered to be at the start of that age category appropriate for their starting class. For example, a 44 year old human fighter (middle age) would become a 16 year old adult.

Retroaging reverses aging effects. If an adult becomes a youth or below, however, the aging effects are applied. A loss of constitution causes retroactive HP loss (however a character can never have less than 1 hp/level). A loss of intelligence does not cause a retroactive loss of skill points. Feats that have an ability score requirement, or feats dependent on such feats, are considered to be unavailable but not lost; if the character ages and the aging effects are applied as normal, the feats are regained instantaneously. Monster HD are affected, but class level and character level are not.

Retroaging is countered by an Aging spell. The focus is a toy sword or a doll that is given to the target after the spell is cast.

Korias
2007-02-07, 09:53 AM
Champion Youth Feat.
The gods have ordained you as their champion, and you have gained the first of many bonuses that they will give you.
Benefit: 1/day, you may temporarily increase an ability score by 4. This effect lasts for 1d6 + The Increased Stats's New Modifier.
Class skills are: Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Special: If your first class is in The Champion Class, this feat is subsided into that class and you are free to pick your fist level feat as normal. If your first level is in another class, this feat becomes your first level feat.

Glooble Glistencrist
2007-02-07, 11:16 AM
Draconic Devotion [Youth]
You have shown devotion to a particular kind of Dragon, and have gained a unique power through that devotion.
Benefit: You know one Draconic aura. You can project it at a +1 bonus. You may use this ability once per day, and it lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier +3. You add Climb, craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), and search to your list of class skills, plus others depending on your totem dragon.
Special: When you take this feat, you must choose a totem dragon form the list of true dragons. If your first level is in the Dragon Shaman class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Korias
2007-02-07, 12:19 PM
Does anybody have any ideas for homebrew classes they like? Or some equipment?

Neek
2007-02-07, 01:16 PM
Adept

Touched [Youth]
You have been touched with divine power, and are able to manifest that power.
Benefit: Choose 2 level 0 spells from the Adept spell list. You are able to cast spell that 3/day.
You may assign 2 plus your intelligence modifer to the following skills as though these were class skills: Concentate (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Int), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis).
(HD: d3.)
Special: If your first class is in the Adept class, this feat is subsided into that particular class and you may pick your first level feat as normal. If not, then this becomes your first level feat.

Healer's Protégé [Youth]
You have a knack for stemming wounds and treating a variety of illnesses. You know which plants can kill and which plants can heal.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to all Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), and Survival (Wis) rolls.
You may assign 2 plus your intelligence modifer to the following skills as though these were class skills: Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Int), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis).
(HD: d3.)
Special: If your first class is in the Adept class, this feat is subsided into that particular class and you may pick your first level feat as normal. If not, then this becomes your first level feat.

Aristrocrat

Tutored [Youth]
As the child of a lord or nobleman, you have been given the advantage of having a pedagogue. You are cultured and educated.
Prerequisite: Intelligence 12.
Benefit: You are proficient with one Martial Weapon of your choice, provided that you can wield it. Choose two skills from the skill list, you receive a +2 to any checks involving those.
You may assign 4 plus your intelligence modifer to the following skills as though these were class skills: Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (Int), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Speak Language (None), Swim (Str).
(HD: d4.)
Special: If your first class is in the Aristrocrat class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose another class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Little Prince/Princess [Youth]
Being in the upper class has afforded you the opportunity to command respect from your peers. You also know how to weasle your own way.
Benefit: You are proficient with one Martial Weapon of your choosing, provided that you can wield it. You gain a +2 modifier to Intimidate (Cha). As well, 1/week, you can throw either an extreme temper tantrum or act sweet to get access to an event or an item that's not normally allowable:
Temper Tantrum: Make an opposed Bluff (Cha) check with a +2 modifer. The check is made against an adult's highest social attribute (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma). If the check succeeds, then you are allowed their request. However, for the next 2 days, any Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check suffers a -2 penalty made against any adult who was present for the tantrum
Shmooze: Make a Bluff (Cha) check with a +2 modifier. The check is made against an adult's highest highest social attribute (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma). If the check succeeds, then you are allowed their request. However, 2 days of chores or undesirable work will be required of you.
You may assign 4 plus your intelligence modifer to the following skills as though these were class skills: Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Int), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex).
(HD: d4).
Special: If your first class is in the Aristrocrat class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose another class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Other Youth Feats

I see dead people [Youth Feats]
You can see things that adults cannot. Your perception peers beyond the Material plane into the Ethereal world.
Benefit: 1/day, you can see into the Ethereal plane for a number of rounds equal to 1d4+Wisdom Modifier. You can see into the Ethereal plane as you can see in normal daylight. You may assign 4 plus your intelligence modifer to the following skills as though these were class skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
(HD: d3)

I included HD because I wasn't sure if that came to a conclusion. I'd rule that a Youth has half their base-classes HD.

I would also suggest a revamp for the Equipment, because I think it does too much damage. Even if a child only has d4 hp as a commoner, a hit with a toy Great Sword would knock them out without fail.

Toy (Training) Sword (Small Simple Weapon)
This sword is made of wood, and has no sharp tip. It is solidly built, so in the hands of a youth, might almost pass for the real thing.
Damage: 1d3, crit x2. This weapon deals subdual damange. Attempting to cause normal damage applies a -4 penalty on attack rolls.

Toy (Training) Greatsword (Medium Sized Simple Weapon)
This sword is built like a great sword. It is weighted at the hilt and heftier than the normal toy sword, making it balanced closer to a true weapon.
Damage: 1d6, crit x2. This weapon deals subdual damange. Attempting to cause normal damage applies a -4 penalty on attack rolls.

Korias
2007-02-17, 10:19 PM
I take it that this is a finished system then?

Neek
2007-02-18, 01:36 AM
I think it is!

I wonder what a Child campaign would look like...

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-18, 05:58 AM
Here's my next idea: Heredity. How can we influence the child's ability rolls based on the parents' stats?

I have a rough sort of system that I use for this.

Determine the absolute base ability scores of the parents by taking their ability scores (absent any magical equipment or effects like fox's cunning or gloves of Dexterity; inherent bonuses are the only exception to this), subtracting any increases from leveling up and racial ability adjustments (except in the case of an elf-human couple).
Subtract 10 from the even absolute scores and 11 from the odd ones. You now have a set of numbers I call the root scores.
Average the root scores of each parent together (root Str of the father + root Str of the mother, divided by 2, etc.). You now have a new set of root scores.
Take the new root scores you generated in Step 3. Each factor of 6 in a root score represents 1 die that you don't have to roll when determing that ability, as does any remainder. Root scores of 1 or lower are imposed as modifiers on the result of the 4d6-drop lowest roll.I probably didn't make that very clear, so I'll give an example, using two 4th level characters with the arrays 15, 14, 13, 13, 12, 6 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=880497) and 10, 9, 14, 12, 11, 15 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=880500).

Male Human Monk 4
Str 12
Dex 16 (level increase)
Con 14 (+1 inherent bonus)
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 6

and

Female Human Sorcerer 4
Str 9
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 12 (+1 inherent bonus)
Cha 16 (level increase)

In this case, because I didn't have time to equip them properly, we practically have their absolute base scores aready. Mnk: Str 12, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 6; Sor: Str 9, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 15.
Mnk: Str 2, Dex 4, Con 2, Int 2, Wis 4, Cha -4; Sor: Str -2, Dex 4, Con 2, Int 0, Wis 0, Cha 4.
Str 0=(2+-2)/2, Dex 4=(4+4)/2, Con 2=(2+2)/2, Int 1=(2+0)/2, Wis 2=(4+0)/2, Cha 0=(-4+4)/2.
Str [roll0], Dex [roll1], Con [roll2], Int [roll3], Wis [roll4], Cha [roll5]So, adjusting for my confusing the roller, this kid, as an adult, would have Str 9, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 15, Wis 11, Cha 12.

... And I probably just confused the heck out of everybody...

Psionic Warrior's Feat
Psionic Combat [Youth]
Your Mind can lash out to other's minds with your strange powers.
Benefit: You may have the use of a Psionic Combat Mode (offensive), And you may have a PP pool of 1d6+Combat's Atribute for this ability.
Special: if your first class level is in the Psychic Warrior class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

3.5 psionics no longer uses Combat Modes.

Peregrine
2007-02-18, 09:50 AM
I take it that this is a finished system then?

Finished? Far from it! I'm yet to work out a skill point system I like better (learning from Childhood onwards would be nice, although since youth is roughly from 8 years old, or the equivalent for non-human races, I can live with not being able to gain skill points before this). I need to work out a good hit point system. I need to do up a complete list of youth feats for at least the core classes, which means reviewing my own, vetting others' submissions and probably writing some more. And I need to look at everything else I can think of to make sure I've covered all bases. :smallsmile: (That includes any new 'wouldn't it be cool?' ideas I come up with along the way.)

Anybody else is welcome to take what I've posted so far and complete it in their own way, of course. But since the idea's sort of 'my baby', I'm going to endeavour to finish it my way as well, at some point. (If you finish it your way, publish it, and make a wad of money, throwing some credit and maybe some royalties my way would be awfully decent of you. :smallcool:)


I have a rough sort of system that I use for this.

Nice, and not confusing me too much (I think!), but the problem is that it generates adult stats. My ideas thus far have shied away from predetermining a child's adult stats and working backwards.

An idea that just occurred to me would be allowing 'roll twice, use best' sort of situations for a child's genetically favoured ability scores. But this would need more work to be fully usable.

EDIT: I've just realised. In light of my age table (and the fact that 'youth' is not 'adolescence' -- this is because of the core rules' ages of adulthood, not my rules), I may possibly need to revise the age size categories. Should 8-year old humans really be Medium? I mean, I suppose they're about the height of dwarves... maybe... are they? Or are they more halfling height, and thus still Small?

Infancy for humans is 0-2; they should be Tiny.
Childhood for humans is 2-8; they should be Small.
Youth for humans is 8-15; are they Small or Medium? They do sort of shoot up in the middle... am I going to have to break this down more to put in the beginning of Adolescence?

Or am I worrying over nothing, and are 8-year old humans close enough to Medium? (I certainly don't want to rule that 14-year old humans are Small, come to think of it.)

Korias
2007-02-18, 10:23 AM
3.5 psionics no longer uses Combat Modes.

Damn... I really need to update my books, then.

Peregrine, I think that their are two solutions:

1. Determine the size by the height of the character. If the character is, say, below 4'11, they are small. If they are 5' and above, they are medium sized.

Or.

2. Divide it by age. Its 8-15, right? That would make children that are 11 or younger Small, and 12 or bigger Medium sized.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-18, 10:36 AM
My ideas thus far have shied away from predetermining a child's adult stats and working backwards.

Then combine my method with your 1st die - 2nd die - etc. thing, use the root score in place of the first die (up to a max score of 6 before racial mods).
It would look something like this:


Infant
Size two categories smaller than adult
First d6 or root scores (1 die equivalent)
Apply a -3 age penalty to mental ability scores (minimum 1)

Child
Size one category smaller than adult
Add second d6 (or root die equivalent) to ability scores
Reduce age penalty to mental ability scores to -2 (minimum 1)

Youth
Size same category as adult
Choose a youth feat
Add third d6 (or root die equivalent) to ability scores
Reduce age penalty to mental ability scores to -1

Adult
Choose first class level
Add final d6 (or root die equivalent) to ability scores and drop lowest result
Remove age penalty to mental ability scoresAnd for psionic youth feats...

Esper Talent [Psionic, Youth]
You possess some psionic ability.
Benefit: You know 1 1st level power of your choice and have 2 power points. If you choose a discipline power, the save DC of your power (if applicable) is based on Intelligence; if you choose your power from the general psion/wilder list, the save DC is based on Charisma, and if you choose a psychic warrior power, the save DC is based on Wisdom. You can manifest the power granted by this feat even if your Int, Wis, or Cha would normally be too low to manifest powers. Your ML is 1.
Special: If your first class level is in a manifesting class that uses the same key ability (where applicable) specializes in the same discipline as the power you chose for the feat, the benefits of this feat are subsumed by the first level of that class and you may choose a first level feat as normal. If you take your first class level in any other class, this becomes your first level feat.

Knife of the Mind [Psionic, Youth]
You possess the ability to produce a weaker version of the soulknife's mind blade.
Benefit: You gain the ability to produce a mind blade, as per the soulknife class ability, expect that your mind blade deals damage as a dagger sized appropriately for you.
Special: If your first class level is in the soulknife class, the benefits of this feat are subsumed by the first level of that class and you may choose a first level feat as normal. If you take your first class level in any other class, this becomes your first level feat.

Dire Penguin
2007-02-18, 01:27 PM
Aaw man...I'm going to have to do a module with children!

Neek
2007-02-18, 03:31 PM
EDIT: I've just realised. In light of my age table (and the fact that 'youth' is not 'adolescence' -- this is because of the core rules' ages of adulthood, not my rules), I may possibly need to revise the age size categories. Should 8-year old humans really be Medium? I mean, I suppose they're about the height of dwarves... maybe... are they? Or are they more halfling height, and thus still Small?

A human child may be as tall as a dwarf, but they're nowhere near as stout. I'd rule small, but everyone's different. This is a hard one... mechanically, I'd say go for Small.


Anybody else is welcome to take what I've posted so far and complete it in their own way, of course. But since the idea's sort of 'my baby', I'm going to endeavour to finish it my way as well, at some point. (If you finish it your way, publish it, and make a wad of money, throwing some credit and maybe some royalties my way would be awfully decent of you. )

I'm more wanting to help contribute and get your ideas where you want them to be. Whatever you solidify as "rules" is what I'm probably going to use if I run a Child module.

Mr Teufel
2007-02-18, 07:37 PM
Take the new root scores you generated in Step 3. Each factor of 6 in a root score represents 1 die that you don't have to roll when determing that ability, as does any remainder*. Root scores of 1 or lower are imposed as modifiers on the result of the 4d6-drop lowest roll.[/LIST]I probably didn't make that very clear, so I'll give an example, using two 4th level characters with the arrays 15, 14, 13, 13, 12, 6 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=880497) and 10, 9, 14, 12, 11, 15 (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=880500).

Male Human Monk 4
Str 12
Dex 16 (level increase)
Con 14 (+1 inherent bonus)
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 6

and

Female Human Sorcerer 4
Str 9
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 12 (+1 inherent bonus)
Cha 16 (level increase)

In this case, because I didn't have time to equip them properly, we practically have their absolute base scores aready. Mnk: Str 12, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 6; Sor: Str 9, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 15.
Mnk: Str 2, Dex 4, Con 2, Int 2, Wis 4, Cha -4; Sor: Str -2, Dex 4, Con 2, Int 0, Wis 0, Cha 4.
Str 0=(2+-2)/2, Dex 4=(4+4)/2, Con 2=(2+2)/2, Int 1=(2+0)/2, Wis 2=(4+0)/2, Cha 0=(-4+4)/2.
Str [roll0], Dex [roll1], Con [roll2], Int [roll3], Wis [roll4], Cha [roll5]So, adjusting for my confusing the roller, this kid, as an adult, would have Str 9, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 15, Wis 11, Cha 12.

... And I probably just confused the heck out of everybody...


*Step four is where you lose me.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-18, 07:48 PM
I thought that would be where I lost people. I'll edit in a more detailed explanation in a few moments.

Okay, use this example: There's a pair of 20th level humans that started with 18s in every ability score and have +5 inherent bonuses to each score.


They have base scores of 23 in every ability.
Subtracting 11 gives us a root score of 12 for every ability.
Averaging leaves still leaves us with 12s.
Now, usually to generate ability scores in D&D, you roll 4d6 drop lowest. The 12s are the equivalent of two dice coming up 6, so when determining the abilities for the child of these highly improbable people, you roll 2 dice, assume you got 2 6s in additon to your actual roll, and drop the lowest value as normal. A root score of 8 is the same as a 6 and a 2, a 9 is the same as a 6 and a 3, and so on.Is that better?

Thexare Blademoon
2007-02-18, 09:14 PM
Are we going to allow child characters some kind of proficiency with simple weapons? Or maybe child-only weapons, a la Legend of Zelda... I mean, even the apprentice wizard should have a dagger, or something.

How about this? All children gain Weapon Proficiency: Child. All children are proficient with the following weapons: Dagger, Light club, Rock (thrown), Slingshot*, Toy sword*. This is in addition to any weapons they become proficient with by choosing their Youth feat.

I would think quarterstaff would be fitting as well.

Other than that, I like that idea.

Mr Teufel
2007-02-19, 06:59 AM
@Lord Iames Osari: That's better. Thanks.

Peregrine
2007-02-19, 09:56 AM
Hmm... I remember thinking a while back that I wasn't entirely happy with tying class-like features to physical development -- it constrains all children to both grow and learn at much the same rate. One small move away from this that would help solve my size worries, plus work well for some other matters, would be this:

Adolescence

Part way through the Youth age category, a child enters adolescence. (To do: devise dice rolls to randomise the onset of puberty.) This has a number of effects:
Size category increases to your Adult size (Tiny to Small, or Small to Medium)
Various rapid physical changes impede your dexterity until you grow accustomed to them. (To do: devise penalties. Gangly limbs, boys' voice breaking...)
Hormones set in. I have no idea what game effects this will have, but I'm sure it will be evil. :smallamused:

Neek
2007-02-19, 12:24 PM
Youth gains 1 set of skill points, Adolescent gains second set... and Adult gains all three. The Adolescent has all his dice rolled up, but receive ability pentalties until Adulthood.

That sounds alright.

Korias
2007-02-19, 05:54 PM
Hormones:
Young male boys become distracted by objects of their "Affection" More frequently than normal. A Boy must make a DC 10+(Girl's Charisma Modifier x 2) or be distracted. The effect is similar to a daze spell, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the girl's charisma modifier. The same can be applied to girls, except the ability in question could be Strength, Dexterity, Charisma, or Wisdom.

Hormones provide a +2 Will Save Modifier VS Fear. I found that people tend to fight back when they are teenagers. This effect is cancelled when you reach adulthood.

Thats all I can think of right now... I may think of more.

Chavik
2007-02-21, 12:33 PM
no matter how you finally fix the children, apply the feral template, make a swarm of them, and you have one nasty hack and slash encounter... *starts making notes*