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Passer-by
2013-12-08, 10:08 AM
In fiction, we see heroes and villains exchanging both blows and witty insults, when it's a light hearted fight, or, when the story is at its climax, dramatic villanous rants about being invincible that cover entire panels/pages. For instance, The Iliad has big battles in which heroes often exchange long monologues where they threaten the rival, or explain their intentions.

Roleplaying games, however, use slooooow battle systems in which one single minute of fight can last two real life hours. Players rarely speak through battles, unless they need to stop the fight by using diplomacy, or reveal a piece of info to their friends so they can fight the bad guy best.

So, here's what I'm always wondering: How do you make interesting interactions with the villain while fighting? What kind of things should a bad guy say in just six seconds (what a round lasts)?

For the sake of argument, let's say that these represent the bad kind of villain banter, and they're what I'm trying to avoid:
:smallamused: "You cannot beat meeee!"
:smallfurious:"I will destroy you!"
:smallfurious:"NOW U DIEE!"
:smallmad: "die hero"

Brookshw
2013-12-08, 10:36 AM
Threaten to harm characters that the pcs are attached to, play on the emotions to make them really want the sob dead. Revel in past victories of the villians or ridicule pcs failures. Probably better to do so in reference to the campaign but even in battle could work.
Player 1: crits
Villian: "oh, you finally scraped up the money for a lesson in swordplay eh?
Player 2: fumble
Villian: "dont worry, you'll get it one day".

But know your group first so you don't inadvertently insult a player or cross a line.

Blightedmarsh
2013-12-08, 10:56 AM
"Leave me alone!"
"Why are you always picking on us?"
"We will cleanse the world of you vile murder hobos"
"Hold the lines lads; they'll murder your families if they get through"
"Trespassers! Thieves! Murderers!"
"For king and country"
"Mike get the children out, I'll try to hold them off"
"Stop in the name of the law"
"Surrender; you will not be harmed"

Scarf Dude
2013-12-08, 11:13 AM
I've had quite some trouble with this too. Certain NPCs (read: megolamaniacal jerks) feel natural to roleplay and even combat dialogue isn't impossible to develop. Finding good one-liners never struck me as that hard, its just remembering them on the fly and adapting them for the setting. I'm hoping to develop a wider range of NPCs.

I'm trying two new things for my next campaign, though I have no idea how well they'll work out. First, I'm keeping a index card for each of my players, and giving them XP awards for both RPing and creative problem solving (I'd credit the source, but I'm afraid I've forgotten it). Second, I'm trying to pre-write a short (one paragraph) summary of the NPC's personality and goals. Having that visable reminder of it's attitude will hopefully prompt me to come up with better lines.

Though, I might also be tempted to steal my favorite lines from this thread and attach them to specific NPCs.

Hyena
2013-12-08, 11:29 AM
While my favourite villain, Doyle, does not engane in physical combat, he often banters with PCs when he puts them through his deathtrap gauntlets. He constantly insults their intelligence - after all, method of escape is so obvious, but they spend hours trying to figure out how one enter a dining hall...
Even if they solve his riddles, he insults them anyway. Because, you know, that one was one of the simple ones.

Airk
2013-12-08, 04:47 PM
The obvious way to improve this is some pre-planning. Write down the sorts of witticisms your villain is LIKELY to say. Is he going to mock people's intelligence? Their self worth? Their fashion sense? All of the above depending on the target of his mockery?

Well, write down some quips. Glance at the list everytime something interesting happens.

Practice. You'll get better the more you do this.

Grim Portent
2013-12-08, 05:13 PM
"Leave me alone!"
"Why are you always picking on us?"
"We will cleanse the world of you vile murder hobos"
"Hold the lines lads; they'll murder your families if they get through"
"Trespassers! Thieves! Murderers!"
"For king and country"
"Mike get the children out, I'll try to hold them off"
"Stop in the name of the law"
"Surrender; you will not be harmed"

I think the thread has been won.

Passer-by
2013-12-08, 05:45 PM
While my favourite villain, Doyle...

He seems like a really interesting villain, but he also seems the kind that whose most prominent character trait is mocking the heroes in a funny way. Not every villain can do that. But, like I said, he seems like a lot of fun.


"Leave me alone!"
"Why are you always picking on us?"
"We will cleanse the world of you vile murder hobos"
"Hold the lines lads; they'll murder your families if they get through"
"Trespassers! Thieves! Murderers!"
"For king and country"
"Mike get the children out, I'll try to hold them off"
"Stop in the name of the law"
"Surrender; you will not be harmed"

The "Mike" one totally killed me. Congratulations, sir.



But know your group first so you don't inadvertently insult a player or cross a line.

Well, if any player felt insulted by something that would only hurt his character's feelings, then he is roleplaying the hell out of it. I've never seen something like that.


The obvious way to improve this is some pre-planning. Write down the sorts of witticisms your villain is LIKELY to say. Is he going to mock people's intelligence? Their self worth? Their fashion sense? All of the above depending on the target of his mockery?


Most people have talked about mockery and witty one-liners. But the biggest villains are probably not going to mock the PCs.

It's easy to come up with a one liner. I know that. But here's the thing: How can you make combat dialogue dramatic? How do you cope with the time limitations of a single round?

Raine_Sage
2013-12-08, 05:52 PM
Well the easiest way is to just ignore the time limitations. I doubt that your players are sitting around the table with stopwatches clocking you in at exactly six seconds per piece of Dialogue. If they are you might have bigger things to worry about.

It's not uncommon for the fight to "pause" for a moment while something happens. IC nothing really stopped, the pause is entirely ooc, but no one usually has a problem with the pause being there as long as it doesn't drag on forever.

It's the same suspension of disbelief in any other game. "Supposedly I'm traveling with 12 people but can only control 4 at a time" or "The world is ending but the merchants are still price gouging me on important supplies."
The trope of "Game pauses for a moment while Villain says something important/dramatic" is time honored.

MonochromeTiger
2013-12-08, 05:59 PM
Well the easiest way is to just ignore the time limitations. I doubt that your players are sitting around the table with stopwatches clocking you in at exactly six seconds per piece of Dialogue. If they are you might have bigger things to worry about.

It's not uncommon for the fight to "pause" for a moment while something happens. IC nothing really stopped, the pause is entirely ooc, but no one usually has a problem with the pause being there as long as it doesn't drag on forever.

It's the same suspension of disbelief in any other game. "Supposedly I'm traveling with 12 people but can only control 4 at a time" or "The world is ending but the merchants are still price gouging me on important supplies."
The trope of "Game pauses for a moment while Villain says something important/dramatic" is time honored.

unofficial optional rule of most campaigns is "talking is a free action no matter how long it takes, but take more than 5 minutes and I throw a monster manual at your head"...ok so maybe the throwing thing is just my groups but it's justified.

honestly if you want to have a suitably dramatic villain just give them a personality and normal dialogue, a catchphrase or outraged disbelief spouting villain often winds up looking like a gigantic cliche. a villain fully capable of going through a fight blasting your heroes to tiny smoking shreds while remaining completely civil and perhaps even friendly? THAT sticks with them.

falloutimperial
2013-12-08, 08:46 PM
It's very simple. If you were going to insult someone yourself, you would either try to make that person aware of some failing he or she does or does not have. Of course, you have to differentiate your idea of what would offend you rather than the other person.

This principle is just the same in fiction, reflecting both your villain's values and highlighting what the character fears or regrets being.

Examples representing the villain's values:
"You lack vision."
"You talk too much."
"Stop dancing around and fight."
"You're just like all the others."

Examples reflecting the character:
"Still as foolish as ever."
"Kill me? You couldn't even save her."
"Don't you want a drink first?"
"Weak. Weak and disappointing."

Blightedmarsh
2013-12-09, 05:09 AM
You could have him make inconsequential quips and advice.

"Now if you had tucked that arm in I wouldn't have been able to cut it"
"Nice move, where did you learn that one?"
"Remember your shield is as much an weapon as your sword"
"A good blow starts from the ground"
"Excellent footwork"
"A sword is meant to cut; not hack"
"What lovey weather we've been having lately"
"So; how is your mother/sister/father these days?"
"Have you ever considered the Cult of Hextor?"
"There are always entry level positions and exciting opportunities in the field of evil"
"Do you ever get the feeling that its all pointless and futile? I don't!"
"Join me; together we can make old men happy"
"Is it me or do you adventures get younger every year"
"Does you mother know your out?"
"If you leave now I wont have to kill you"
"Undeath has its advantages"
"I want your body and I mean to have it; one way or another"

Hyena
2013-12-09, 06:17 AM
He seems like a really interesting villain, but he also seems the kind that whose most prominent character trait is mocking the heroes in a funny way.
Actually, his defining character trait is being a hypocritic, sociopathic hostage-murdering narcissist, but he's also funny. When he's not murdering people.

Grim Portent
2013-12-09, 06:39 AM
When he's not murdering people.

You mean that part isn't funny? Well now I know why my chaotic evil bard's comedy tour failed.

I tend to feel truly good banter comes from snide remarks made in response to foolishness. If a player does something bad, either deliberately or not then a quick talking bad guy should call them on it. Failed dice rolls and idiotic plans are good targets for snappy remarks, bonus points if the players have a comeback.

Of course if all else fails I find a few Monty Python quotes always works when you need to taunt someone. :smallbiggrin:

Dr. Cliché
2013-12-09, 07:57 AM
In fiction, we see heroes and villains exchanging both blows and witty insults, when it's a light hearted fight, or, when the story is at its climax, dramatic villanous rants about being invincible that cover entire panels/pages. For instance, The Iliad has big battles in which heroes often exchange long monologues where they threaten the rival, or explain their intentions.

Roleplaying games, however, use slooooow battle systems in which one single minute of fight can last two real life hours. Players rarely speak through battles, unless they need to stop the fight by using diplomacy, or reveal a piece of info to their friends so they can fight the bad guy best.

So, here's what I'm always wondering: How do you make interesting interactions with the villain while fighting? What kind of things should a bad guy say in just six seconds (what a round lasts)?

Well, for a start, bear in mind that rounds are basically ignored if the Villain and the party aren't in combat when they first encounter one another. So, unless the party gets right to the action, you should be able to have some decent banter without worrying about time constraints.

Whilst in combat, I still wouldn't worry too much about how much time it actually takes you to say the villain's dialogue. I mean, when you think about it, there's no reason why he can't be talking over multiple rounds. It's not like a player trying to outline a complex plan in 6 seconds (which could dictate their actions) - he's just taunting them. Unless, you're spending upwards of 5 minutes each round monologuing, it should work fine.

In terms of what your villain actually says, I'd probably take the time to think up and write down some good lines for him (maybe a lot of lines, if you don't feel comfortable ad libbing). In terms of what sort of lines to use, I'd probably split them into 3 rough categories:

1) Lines based on his plan - i.e. what will happen when he wins.

Basically, this is where the villain delights over the imminent destruction of a city, of a race, of his enemies, or whatever his plan entails. May work better before blows are struck - when the villain is delighted with himself and confident that nothing can stop him.

2) Lines based on the villain's personality - i.e. what the villain thinks of himself and the PCs.

Are they insects before his might? Should they be on their knees, worshipping him as a god? Are they former rivals who he's about to finally defeat? These sort of lines will probably be relatively short, and are arguably the closest to actual banter during a fight.

3) Lines specific to the party - i.e. specific threats, or taunts.

This is when the villain taunts the party with something specific - either to all of them - such as a mistake they made, or to a single PC. For example, the villain may have killed a loved one of one of the PCs, or perhaps a minion stole and destroyed a cherished item/heirloom. Alternatively, if the party has attacked the villain (or annoyed him in some other way), then it might be a future threat towards one or more of the PCs.

4) (Bonus) Sometimes actions speak louder than words. Basically, thare ways for the villain to taunt the PCs without ever speaking, or with very little dialogue. Perhaps a twisted Knight takes an item out of his pocket and rolls it gently towards the party - as it comes to a halt, the Paladin recognises his wife's wedding ring. Or, perhaps a party member died along the way (and made a new character). Well, if they didn't get a chance to cremate the body, have the villain introduce his newest servant - the fallen party member is now back on his feet and working for him (you could add an undead template - such as vampire or Death Knight - or something else appropriate to the villain at hand).

Anyway, hope this helps.

DigoDragon
2013-12-09, 08:30 AM
d20 Modern "X-Files" campaign-- our FBI team was investigating a mall ghost and the adventure's climax was us trying to take down the ghost's killer, a retired US Army sniper.

As our team tried to get closer to him (He was on the roof of an apartment building next to the mall and is taking shots at us), our team leader tried to discuss the weather with him. The next four rounds was a banter about how the local news station was corrupt and bought out by lobbyists feeding us bad propaganda, but at least the weather was fairly predictable with a nice day in the mid-70s.

FBI: "Think it'll rain this afternoon?"

Sniper: "It might, my trick knee aches and that's usually a good sign of it."


The conversation ended with our team leader actually negotiating his surrender (The GM originally assumed we would shoot him dead at some point). So, sometimes villain banter actually affects the battle's outcome. :smallsmile:

Brookshw
2013-12-09, 09:02 AM
You could have him make inconsequential quips and advice.

"Now if you had tucked that arm in I wouldn't have been able to cut it"
"Nice move, where did you learn that one?"
"Remember your shield is as much an weapon as your sword"
"A good blow starts from the ground"
"Excellent footwork"
"A sword is meant to cut; not hack"
"What lovey weather we've been having lately"
"So; how is your mother/sister/father these days?"
"Have you ever considered the Cult of Hextor?"
"There are always entry level positions and exciting opportunities in the field of evil"
"Do you ever get the feeling that its all pointless and futile? I don't!"
"Join me; together we can make old men happy"
"Is it me or do you adventures get younger every year"
"Does you mother know your out?"
"If you leave now I wont have to kill you"
"Undeath has its advantages"
"I want your body and I mean to have it; one way or another"

Now that's a fun list. I'll add "you kids these days really don't bother to learn the basics anymore".

Blightedmarsh
2013-12-09, 09:21 AM
"Pay attention. If you live through this you may actually learn something"

Jay R
2013-12-09, 09:49 AM
(When a fighter fumbles): Have you ever seriously considered a career as a wizard? You seem to have the sword skills for it.

Blightedmarsh
2013-12-09, 09:58 AM
When a spell fails

"Have you considered a career as a fighter? You clearly have the intelligence for it"

Dr. Cliché
2013-12-09, 10:04 AM
(When a fighter fumbles): Have you ever seriously considered a career as a wizard? You seem to have the sword skills for it.

This one made me smile.

Drakeburn
2013-12-10, 06:58 PM
"I was going to give you your final meals, but now you'll have to settle with your last words!"

The Fury
2013-12-10, 08:09 PM
There's one villain in a game I'm playing in that took a slightly different tactic. As many have said, it's pretty common to have a villain insult a hero's strength or intelligence, this villain chose to insult my character's resolve. Recalling a quote best I can:

[talking about my character] "She's too much of a coward to use real force even if it means saving her friends. She's willing to let them die just to prove a point. How noble."

Brookshw
2013-12-10, 08:12 PM
There's one villain in a game I'm playing in that took a slightly different tactic. As many have said, it's pretty common to have a villain insult a hero's strength or intelligence, this villain chose to insult my character's resolve. Recalling a quote best I can:

[talking about my character] "She's too much of a coward to use real force even if it means saving her friends. She's willing to let them die just to prove a point. How noble."

Interesting, I can see it with a heavy rp group. I'm curious, could you please provide context?

BeerMug Paladin
2013-12-10, 08:39 PM
I don't know how to improve villainous banter during combat, but I would suggest introducing villains in contexts where the players have no reason to fight them, and will come into conflict with them later on. Perhaps even conflict with them in a way that has nothing to do with direct combat. Such a situation can make it easier to characterize them, and make the eventual conflict more meaningful.

Or you could simply have the villain not wanting to battle the party, and instead choosing to talk to them. If the party is good aligned and comes across a villain that is willing to discuss things, they may be willing to talk. If they talk it out and it is clear that the player party isn't willing to give the villain a compromise they're happy with, then a battle could take place.

The Fury
2013-12-10, 08:57 PM
Interesting, I can see it with a heavy rp group. I'm curious, could you please provide context?

OK. I'll spoiler it for length though, as I'd have to go over the campaign set-up and a fair amount of the plot.

In this campaign we had learned of a thousands strong orcish host preparing to invade our town, which was on the northern border of the kingdom on the south side of a river. The orcs could, in theory, capture the town and proceed to raid the kingdom with relative impunity. The PCs are members of a militia tasked with defending the town. My character in particular is a peasant conscript-- just to underscore what a desperate situation the town was in I made her a thirteen year-old girl. The entire militia is less than fifty people, nearly all of them conscripts as well. It was pretty clear that we couldn't defeat the orcs on our own so we set out to try and find help.

You are correct in saying that it was pretty roleplay-heavy. I even went so far as to develop my character's relationship with her family, actually giving them names and making it clear that my character missed them and was worried whether they were safe. (This is what made the villain's comment about about my character being "willing to let them die to prove a point" so much more cruel.)

Over the course of trying to find help for our cause we came across a settlement founded by a cult to a dark god. After we ousted the the cult leaders and tried establish order we discovered that one of the cult leaders had used a ritual to bind a devil (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/devil.html#_devil-erinyes) to their service. One of the party members turned her loose and the PCs sort of accepted her as an ally. Some of us more grudgingly than others. Shortly after a remnant of cultists attempted a coup, and what a coup it was! It began with trying to trap the party in a burning building, ambushing us with bowmen, and finally shooting at us with this giant magi-tech laser thing which the cult had been building. The latter attack was especially devastating, it could take down buildings or even castle walls and shook the ground when it fired.

All the while, the devil sat on her hands and let the PCs do all the heavy lifting. Sitting out combat encounters and such. I actually asked the DM whether this was intentional, according to him it was. Because of this my character had concluded two things: the party cannot trust the Erinyes at all. Even if the giant magi-tech beam would be useful in stopping the orcs, it was way too dangerous to leave lying around with the devil skulking about. My character then tried to convince the rest of the party of this after the coup was resolved, but the devil already had the ear of one of the other party members and said that quote which accused my character of being a coward when she had that PC alone.

Honestly, what a cool villain!

Brookshw
2013-12-10, 09:42 PM
OK. I'll spoiler it for length though, as I'd have to go over the campaign set-up and a fair amount of the plot.

In this campaign we had learned of a thousands strong orcish host preparing to invade our town, which was on the northern border of the kingdom on the south side of a river. The orcs could, in theory, capture the town and proceed to raid the kingdom with relative impunity. The PCs are members of a militia tasked with defending the town. My character in particular is a peasant conscript-- just to underscore what a desperate situation the town was in I made her a thirteen year-old girl. The entire militia is less than fifty people, nearly all of them conscripts as well. It was pretty clear that we couldn't defeat the orcs on our own so we set out to try and find help.

You are correct in saying that it was pretty roleplay-heavy. I even went so far as to develop my character's relationship with her family, actually giving them names and making it clear that my character missed them and was worried whether they were safe. (This is what made the villain's comment about about my character being "willing to let them die to prove a point" so much more cruel.)

Over the course of trying to find help for our cause we came across a settlement founded by a cult to a dark god. After we ousted the the cult leaders and tried establish order we discovered that one of the cult leaders had used a ritual to bind a devil (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/devil.html#_devil-erinyes) to their service. One of the party members turned her loose and the PCs sort of accepted her as an ally. Some of us more grudgingly than others. Shortly after a remnant of cultists attempted a coup, and what a coup it was! It began with trying to trap the party in a burning building, ambushing us with bowmen, and finally shooting at us with this giant magi-tech laser thing which the cult had been building. The latter attack was especially devastating, it could take down buildings or even castle walls and shook the ground when it fired.

All the while, the devil sat on her hands and let the PCs do all the heavy lifting. Sitting out combat encounters and such. I actually asked the DM whether this was intentional, according to him it was. Because of this my character had concluded two things: the party cannot trust the Erinyes at all. Even if the giant magi-tech beam would be useful in stopping the orcs, it was way too dangerous to leave lying around with the devil skulking about. My character then tried to convince the rest of the party of this after the coup was resolved, but the devil already had the ear of one of the other party members and said that quote which accused my character of being a coward when she had that PC alone.

Honestly, what a cool villain!

Sounds pretty fun, thank you :smallbiggrin:

GrayGriffin
2013-12-10, 09:55 PM
I don't know how to improve villainous banter during combat, but I would suggest introducing villains in contexts where the players have no reason to fight them, and will come into conflict with them later on. Perhaps even conflict with them in a way that has nothing to do with direct combat. Such a situation can make it easier to characterize them, and make the eventual conflict more meaningful.

Or you could simply have the villain not wanting to battle the party, and instead choosing to talk to them. If the party is good aligned and comes across a villain that is willing to discuss things, they may be willing to talk. If they talk it out and it is clear that the player party isn't willing to give the villain a compromise they're happy with, then a battle could take place.

This is good. In a recent session with my PTU group, the DM had us face a dark spirit that none of us had the power to take on ourselves. It acted totally pleasantly to us, took the form of a Nurse Joy, and even healed our Pokemon. It even gave us hints as to how to kill it and its fellow dark spirits, who had seized control of Viridian Forest. But there was a bit of creepyness under all that.

Wyrm Ouroboros
2013-12-10, 10:54 PM
*clips a bunch of really good ideas*
I would add another category: persuading the party to become their allies, and not in the silly 'there's a lot of ground-floor openings in my organization' or 'Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.' (Side note: the Dark Side does have cookies, but the chocolate is more bitter than the cookies offered by the Semi-Sweet Side. Just an observation.)

Evil doesn't usually consider itself evil, no matter the framework; the reasons for their actions are usually logical and inevitable, in their way. As Garion asked, and Belgarath responded, "Good and evil?" "I prefer us and them. It's clearer that way." Yes, you can have the megalomaniacal 'crush all who are not my minions under my jackbooted heel' villian, but you're only going to get gloating one-liners about invincibility and the like out of him.

Having the bad guy who fought tooth and nail for every scrap of power (whether mystic, physical, political, or whatever) because he wants to stop something he considers evil means you have a villian with a real reason to fight - and a real reason to escape, and possibly even better, a real reason to make a last stand and die for his cause, because by god running this city with an iron fist, making sure the only crime is the 'victimless' sort (or that it's severely regulated, or that criminals are caught and sent to the salt mines for 6 months hard labor, because nobody survives past month 5), and getting the public transport wagons running on time means that crime is nonexistent, and murdering muggers are going to pay for their crimes with a lifetime of public service.

Who cares that there's a curfew of two hours after dark, that public houses are severely regulated, and that anyone not of the City Guard spotted moving around the city after dark is going to be considered a criminal and shot on sight? Freedom? What's that?

And mightn't that make the "Lawful Evil" villian ruler of the city you're fighting against a 'good guy'? Or does it make the "Chaotic Evil" rebel who captures, tortures, and maims City Guardsmen and who intends on burning the ruler's fortress down around his ears (and the ears of the children, servants, soldiers, and nobles inside) a hero?

Getting good dialogue is a matter of understanding the villian of the piece and why he does what he does.

"Why are you fighting for Eric the Red? You know he didn't get his name because of his hair color, don't you??"
"Kill me and this city falls into chaos. Kill me, and a thousand people will die before tomorrow night because of the disorder you cause."
"Is it that you want the Lords of Night to return to destroy the world?!?"
"<PC's Master> taught you to be like him - short-sighted and closed-minded."
"Stay thirsty, my friends."

*coughs* Sorry about that last. But in any case, flavor to taste. Instill doubt, indecision, a desire to take on the villian's position and 'just be more gentle/kind/liberal/freedom-loving about it'. (If they do, then you can abuse them to insane levels.)

If your PCs start shouting, "Shut up, I don't want to hear about it! Just die!" then you're doing it right. :smallbiggrin: