In DnD 3.5, how screwed is a city that hates all magic users, even friendly? [Archive]

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aleucard

2013-12-08, 11:03 AM

This is mainly a thought exercise. The city in question (or at least the people of authority (guards, nobles, royalty, etc)) hate magic users of all kinds. Even asking about them in a non-negative way is liable to get you glared at and put on the local **** list.

In 3.5 in particular, this is a dangerous direction for a city to take. With such fun individuals as Dragons, Lich (and other interesting Undead varieties), Demons, Devils, Mind Flayers, and other assorted monstrosities (not to mention what PC's can get into), what mundane methods that a city could employ would be required to ensure they don't get squished any time something level 15+ comes by and decides they want a new lake? I'm unsure if Extraordinary things like Tome of Battle would be allowed, but for the sake of fairness I'll let them be used here. Not too sure about Alchemy, though.

Benthesquid

2013-12-08, 11:05 AM

Gray Mage

2013-12-08, 11:12 AM

Would this hate be extended to magic items? If so, very screwed. A single Allip or shadow could destroy the whole city.

If not, then still screwed, but at least as much as the other exemple.

Greenish

2013-12-08, 11:13 AM

Handle Animal is sometimes called "commoner's UMD". There are dozens and dozens of big, nasty animals (and 1-2 Int magical beasts) with all kinds of interesting special abilities that could be trained to defend the city. Skill checks are fairly simple to boost with masterwork items and Aid Another (if you're rearing, say, 12-headed pyrohydras, you could conceivably have a lot of people helping you).

aleucard

2013-12-08, 11:22 AM

Incredibly setting dependent, but in general, a martial character is going to have a hard time beating a caster without a significant advantage in levels. I suppose a large armory of looted, traded for, or otherwise acquired magic items might help.

I'm fairly certain that anything blatantly magic or magic-like is going to get negative response. That means no magic equipment, potions, anything.

Basically, this is a setting where all standard and at least most non-standard 3.5 stuff is available, with more obscure books being rarer in-game. ToB is likely to be in evidence to less than 1% in this city, for example. To my knowledge, anything that's both RAW and RAI is good to go.

Duke of Urrel

2013-12-08, 11:32 AM

aleucard

2013-12-08, 11:39 AM

I have two comments.

Firstly, an authoritarian regime that prohibits things for its subjects seldom prohibits these things for itself. I can imagine a ruling class that prohibits magic for all commoners, but enforces this prohibition with a few secret or not-so-secret spellcasters of its own.

Secondly, I think it's common for one type of magic to be prohibited and another allowed. A citizenry that loves its clerics or druids but hates arcane spellcasters is easy to imagine. The converse may also exist, because there are probably people suspicious of organized religion who use arcane spellcasters to help keep all proselytizers away.

Not sure about the first one in the game I'm currently in. My current character is in the area thanks to a Gate spell going wonky and spitting him out at full speed. My guy asked about any local experts on teleportation to one of the guards, and was immediately growled at for mentioning magic as anything worthwhile. I'm thinking that any magic-users in the town are going to be the kind that don't like the officials.

To my knowledge, both kinds are hated in this city. We got a Paladin, and he's on watch also. My character just uses stuff that LOOKS like magic and he's liable to get chased out if he isn't careful.

Particle_Man

2013-12-08, 11:46 AM

Does the city at least have an anti-magic field or something to protect it vs. enemies with magic?

Benthesquid

2013-12-08, 11:48 AM

Does the city at least have an anti-magic field or something to protect it vs. enemies with magic?

Yes, it's the field just outside the city in which they burn all the magic users. :smalltongue:

But seriously, that city is in serious trouble once a powerful magic user or magic beast decides they don't like them, unless they've got some serious SCIENCE! lurking under the facade.

Brookshw

2013-12-08, 11:56 AM

aleucard

2013-12-08, 11:56 AM

Does the city at least have an anti-magic field or something to protect it vs. enemies with magic?

Since the only way to generate an AMF is by using (actually pretty high-level) magic and we just cleared a black market slave auction with Pyrotechnics (everyone who's in a position and willing to bitch is dead or not trusted by the officials), I'd say no.

aleucard

2013-12-08, 12:20 PM

Exactly as screwed as the dm wants it to be. That powerful creatures are written in a mm is not in anyway a mandate that; they exist in the world, they have any interest in the city, conflicts must be resolved via combat, that powerful concentrations of such creatures exist nearby, or that the city lacks some alternative defense, such as an artifact that stops all spell casting within 5 miles. It's a world building question specific to the scenario.

Though probably very screwed in most settings.

DM Rule Zero can apply in any direction at any time, so almost any discussion that involves the rules needs to ignore its existence in order to function (almost, since things like Iron Heart Surge exist). A DM could mandate that everyone turns into a random woodland critter every Tuesday from sunrise to sunset, involving Rule Zero in discussions like this is pointless.

Besides, I think that the world has already been mostly established. There's enough magic of ALL kinds going around that several governments have decided to fund a multinational X-COM equivalent to deal with it and figure out ways to stem the endless tide. My first character (overpowered it turns out, so I got it swapped) was a member of said organization on an assignment to investigate local disturbances, with said local disturbances being the source of my newest (and soon-to-be-swapped, since the new DM doesn't like sci-fi in 3.5 and I don't much care as long as I get to play) character. We moved to our current location because our old DM's current PC had some ideas for how to solve my current character's teleportation problem and we needed to be here to contact them. Why exactly those contacts would be here, and why a city like this would last long enough to be a city in a magically active campaign like this is not known as of yet.

Duke of Urrel

2013-12-08, 02:01 PM

Maybe your DM just didn't anticipate that the very fact of a whole city with no magic at all would be a source of such burning PC curiosity. The contacts that you have to meet inside the city seem to have an entirely different agenda for you to take an interest in. Maybe you should just roll with it and leave the "But why...?" question aside for now.

However, I would find it hard to resist using some good-old, mundane Gather Information skill to find out why this place is so prejudiced against magic of all kinds. In fact, this may be a good place to exercise all of your party's mundane skills. That may be exactly what your DM intends.

Tvtyrant

2013-12-08, 02:09 PM

Maybe the city has futuristic weaponry from its devotion to SCIENCE! and is able to make SR fields and reflective armor like a Tarrasque's carapace.

Benthesquid

2013-12-08, 02:14 PM

Maybe the city has futuristic weaponry from its devotion to SCIENCE! and is able to make SR fields and reflective armor like a Tarrasque's carapace.

Perhaps they have a huge breeding population of those snails with spell turning shells!

Tvtyrant

2013-12-08, 02:20 PM

Perhaps they have a huge breeding population of those snails with spell turning shells!

:durkon:Day be raisin me spell resistance inta tha stratosphere!

Phelix-Mu

2013-12-08, 02:28 PM

Perhaps they have a huge breeding population of those snails with spell turning shells!

Aside from that sentence sounding really cool, breeding spirraxes (spirrai?) is probably a bad idea, assuming that is the critter you are referring to.

There are literally a million things that could be going on. The big one that jumps to mind is that the court vizier is actually a powerful spellcaster that has bewitched the rulers into forbidding magic, as a first (and innocuous) level of defense against rival casters. With everyone on the lookout for magic, scry-and-die would be very easy for a secret high-level caster to implement, especially if using a network of mindraped informants (or some less evil variety of that strategy).

So, basically, I'd have my eyes peeled for a Rasputin figure.

But that is hardly the only way this could be going. Perhaps a death cult has been grooming this population for mass extermination for a nigh a century, and forbidding magic was a sensible precaution to prevent anyone from divining their plans. *puts idea in notebook*:smallcool:

(Un)Inspired

2013-12-08, 02:46 PM

Golly. I'm gonna say that one of two things is going on here.

1. It's as people have suggested and a high ranking official is secretly a Mage who has implemented laws to stifle his rivals

2. The power of plot holes! Your DM hasn't realized just how vulnerable his closed minded city of the soon to be dead are. Honestly if I was a wizard or a psion or a Druid and an entire city disrespected me all that would remain would be several wight filled craters where a city used to be. If I was a cleric I would force the wights to tear each other apart after I had them dance for my amusement and recite embarrassing anecdotes from their human lives to each other.

Phelix-Mu

2013-12-08, 02:52 PM

2. The power of plot holes! Your DM hasn't realized just how vulnerable his closed minded city of the soon to be dead are. Honestly if I was a wizard or a psion or a Druid and an entire city disrespected me all that would remain would be several wight filled craters where a city used to be. If I was a cleric I would force the wights to tear each other apart after I had them dance for my amusement and recite embarrassing anecdotes from their human lives to each other.

A vote against druid wight apocalypse. But druid green slimeageddon? Now that sounds like fun.

GIven the theme of the campaign, I'd be surprised if there isn't some plan at work here. On the other hand, with shifting character casts and changing DMs, that can be a lot to keep straight, and perhaps the DM just didn't think through this particular vein of repercussions. Anything is possible.

I'd avoid having the character jump to conclusions, though. The aforementioned advice to use Gather Info and the like seems like a good avenue to take.

Grayson01

2013-12-08, 02:53 PM

Phelix-Mu

2013-12-08, 02:56 PM

Grayson01

2013-12-08, 03:01 PM

I agree that this could also be the case.

The problem with this, though, is that RAW easily allows the opposite to be the case. Hungry great wyrms, powerful demons, and mad wizards all have means, opportunity, and could have motive to go around and do as they damn well please.

There's a problem with saying the cat can leave the bag and then saying it never does. One day, that cat is going to leave.

I am not saying it can't be the case the oposite. Just saying its not out side the realm of posibility or even that crazy of concept.

(Un)Inspired

2013-12-08, 03:02 PM

If there's even one 15+ lvl magic user then that city should look Pompeii. It's always best for Frankenstein* to drop those silly villagers before they get their torches and pitchforks together

*(Frankie's monster)

GoodbyeSoberDay

2013-12-08, 03:13 PM

The plot hole, if there is any, is if the DM made this anything but a backwards under-developed shanty town rather than an impressive city.

If I'm a high level [user of magic] who isn't governed by spite, and I notice a magic-hostile city with the law mandating that nothing useful is to be found within, then I shrug and forget about that pathetic piece of crap. Now, if they have something like an adamantium mine, or something that would make them rich otherwise, then a high level caster might come in and take it. But if their wealth is meager and comes from mundane goods/farming/trading, then it's not worth a powerful entity's time. Demi-gods don't go after every weakling that speaks poorly of them.

So who does go after a completely mundane, poor city with nothing but trinkets and food stores? Marauding orcs. And the city doesn't have fireball, or weather control, or even Inspire Courage + Peasants with slings, to fight them off. For once the orc army even has a magical advantage. Yeah, I see the city either setting up some sort of tribute system/protection racket to a nearby powerful orc confederation, probably in the form of food, crafted tools and maybe even people, just so they don't get destroyed by those mundane forces that would be a nuisance for a city smart enough to allow magic users.

Benthesquid

2013-12-08, 03:18 PM

Aside from that sentence sounding really cool, breeding spirraxes (spirrai?) is probably a bad idea, assuming that is the critter you are referring to.

I was thinking of Pathfinder's Flail Snails, it turns out. No idea if their 3.5 counterparts have the same defenses/actually exist.

Artillery

2013-12-08, 03:25 PM

Is the city full of people with high level abilities in Psionics, with that being the reason they hate magic?

Psionic/Magic transparency is not the default for 3.5. So Psionics != Magic. But then the city is basically Academy City...

Greenish

2013-12-08, 03:28 PM

I was thinking of Pathfinder's Flail Snails, it turns out. No idea if their 3.5 counterparts have the same defenses/actually exist.It seems ol' Flail Snail hasn't been seen in a first party D&D product since AD&D's Fiend Folio.

Karnith

2013-12-08, 03:32 PM

Psionic/Magic transparency is not the default for 3.5.
Actually, it is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#combiningPsionicAndMagic alEffects).

Grayson01

2013-12-08, 03:34 PM

G.Cube

2013-12-08, 03:40 PM

Greenish

2013-12-08, 03:43 PM

GoodbyeSoberDay

2013-12-08, 03:50 PM

Unless they have an Army, high Walls, Better metal weapons, Catapults, Ballistas, because no where ever has a non-magical army ever protected or defend it's self from savage Barbarians. Now if the Orcs have some 5+ magic users then yeah they might be Fed.I did mention a magical advantage for the orcs. A big enough confederation of tribes could have a host of 3rd level spells, not to mention 4th+ level spells.

I was thinking the high walls and expensive defensive artillery were less likely to exist, given my premise of a poor shanty town with little to offer a higher level threat. Maybe they can afford a disciplined army, but it's not necessarily better equipped than the orcs, and that army will definitely be smaller.

It's not like the orcs must be more backwards than the people they're invading. We're talking about a city that willingly eschews the most powerful tool ever given to the people of this multiverse. I'd consider it less like Rome vs. the Gauls and more like the Golden Horde vs. the Kievan Rus (if the Kievan Rus had access to magic and then decided not to use it).

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-08, 03:58 PM

Maybe it's just a city that hates all magic users. It really isn't that crazy a thought. how many 15+ level magic users are running arund the world in the Geographical location of this city. Also if you were a 15+ level Magic user and a city hates you why would you bother going to that city. And if Ithilids, Demons, Dragons, Lichs, and what have yous are running around the world I think them hating Magic usrs is the least of the worlds problems.

I agree that this could also be the case.

The problem with this, though, is that RAW easily allows the opposite to be the case. Hungry great wyrms, powerful demons, and mad wizards all have means, opportunity, and could have motive to go around and do as they damn well please.

There's a problem with saying the cat can leave the bag and then saying it never does. One day, that cat is going to leave.

One word; Baatezu.

Devils have the same motivation for infiltrating and subverting literally every humanoid settlement they ever come across; damning souls to fuel the infernal engine.

A complete lack of magic leaves the city utterly vulnerable. It's only a matter of time before this becomes a lawful evil puppet regime and damned soul factory. Then come the paladins and good clerics.

That actually sounds like a decent plot.

Ooh! Since illithids also like to puppetize governments you could have a secret war between the devils and mind-flayers. I love a good secret war.

Tysis

2013-12-08, 04:14 PM

They wouldn't be very screwed at all.

Imagine an entire city of diplomancers.

Granted probably wouldn't work against a level 20 wizard or other caster of similar power, but then again nothing can really stop a level 20 wizard from doing whatever he/she wants anyways.

AMFV

2013-12-08, 04:24 PM

You can't apply real world theorums to a D&D city, that just creates all sorts of bizarre problems. While you've said that DM fiat is not a reasonable explanation. It absolutely is, this is a world that the DM is creating, while you may imagine that it would be crushed in warfare, and perhaps it will be, the key here is the MST3K Mantra "If you're wondering how the city lives and other science facts, you should repeat to yourself, 'it's just a game, I should really just relax!'"

Seriously if you try to apply real world economics or political science to D&D you just wind up with pretty much a tippy-verse situation everywhere. Which is why you should be okay with just ignoring it, yes a 15th or even lower level caster could wreck the city, but that might not ever come up, because the world outside is the provenience of the DM, he controls it, it's history is his design.

Arguing against that is like a DM going: "How screwed is my idiot player, he's playing a Samurai," then demanding an in-character reason why somebody would play a suboptimal class.

Urpriest

2013-12-08, 04:32 PM

The city you're hypothisizing is every stereotypical Dwarven kingdom. They usually are for more bountious then the average human city, also usually safer, better equipped, and self sufficiant the most cities of other races as well.

Most Dwarven kingdoms are pretty magic-heavy, though, what with their predilection for making valuable magic items.

Anyway, this sort of setting is implausible. Magic in D&D is just something people know how to do, it's not some sort of special supernatural force with mysterious implications. Banning magic as a whole would be like banning wheels.

Silva Stormrage

2013-12-08, 04:35 PM

Most Dwarven kingdoms are pretty magic-heavy, though, what with their predilection for making valuable magic items.

Anyway, this sort of setting is implausible. Magic in D&D is just something people know how to do, it's not some sort of special supernatural force with mysterious implications. Banning magic as a whole would be like banning wheels.

Of course now I am thinking of a city that forbids the use of wheels :smalltongue: That would be interesting but I am not sure how such a hatred would develop. Maybe hated enemies used chariots and wheels are a symbol of their bitter enemies so its just culturally not acceptable to use them? Still a funny idea :smalltongue:

Epsilon Rose

2013-12-08, 04:56 PM

Of course now I am thinking of a city that forbids the use of wheels :smalltongue: That would be interesting but I am not sure how such a hatred would develop. Maybe hated enemies used chariots and wheels are a symbol of their bitter enemies so its just culturally not acceptable to use them? Still a funny idea :smalltongue:

I imagine a high-level mage or mid-level bard trolling everyone might be involved.

One word; Baatezu.

Devils have the same motivation for infiltrating and subverting literally every humanoid settlement they ever come across; damning souls to fuel the infernal engine.

A complete lack of magic leaves the city utterly vulnerable. It's only a matter of time before this becomes a lawful evil puppet regime and damned soul factory. Then come the paladins and good clerics.

That actually sounds like a decent plot.

Ooh! Since illithids also like to puppetize governments you could have a secret war between the devils and mind-flayers. I love a good secret war.

Don't forget the group of doppelgangers who thought that a magicless city would be a great place to set up shop and then got caught in the middle of a horrifying shadow war...

Actually, now that I think of it, this city could be an amazing setting for a subterfuge and trolling heavy campaign.

Emperor Tippy

2013-12-08, 05:05 PM

ryu

2013-12-08, 05:18 PM

I imagine a high-level mage or mid-level bard trolling everyone might be involved.

Don't forget the group of doppelgangers who thought that a magicless city would be a great place to set up shop and then got caught in the middle of a horrifying shadow war...

Actually, now that I think of it, this city could be an amazing setting for a subterfuge and trolling heavy campaign.

This is an amazing idea and I'm totally running it by our DM before the next campaign starts.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-12-08, 06:14 PM

MonochromeTiger

2013-12-08, 06:22 PM

I shall answer this question with a hypothetical situation.

guard:"hey that guy has a cloak and pointy hat I'm gonna call them names"
easily angered epic level wizard: "HOW DARE YOU?!?! *nukes city with his weakest spell*" what remains of the people of the city are then swallowed by the sands of the post magic-splosion desert that the city and its surroundings have been turned into, the wizard moves on to the next city where he then gets a nice drink and takes a nap. centuries later archaeologists discover signs of civilization in the desert and put what remains they find in a museum to be speculated over by bored school children for years to come.

pwykersotz

2013-12-08, 06:33 PM

An entire city build inside a massive Dead Magic Zone isn't too out there. It also creates a natural defense against magic and people fear and mistrust what they are not used to. It might even be fiated as a Planar Anomaly so that Wishes, Miracles, and pesky Initiates of Mystra don't fill it in while no one is looking.

So yeah, I can see that happening. Now Magic is the most powerful thing in the game, so they had better not make other people TOO angry. No holy wars or anything like that. However, if they leave well enough alone, it would take someone as sadistic and crazy as a PC adventurer to try to subvert it.

jedipotter

2013-12-08, 07:07 PM

Ansem

2013-12-08, 07:16 PM

If it's a complete Psionic city I think they'll fare better than a magic-oriented city.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-08, 07:40 PM

Not so screwed. You just need to take a deep breath, sit down and say ''magic is not all that''. I know that goes against the so called facts that everyone says is real. But lets just assume everyone is wrong.

Some ideas:

1. The Nuke. Have the city built on a cliff, floating on the water or built on top of a volcano. Should a mage try any ''funny stuff'', the people can just destroy the city. And all people can have poison hollow teeth.

2. Secret Forces. So secret no one other then like a handful know about them. They are about in and around the city watching. Should they see magic or the signs of magic, they act.

3. Codes. You just have multiple codes for everything. Make it hard for any outsider to get anywhere. This works great with the secret forces.

But to pull this off in 3.5E, you really need to fix all the magic oversights. Eliminate scry and die, nerf teleport, and so on. But you also need to fix the rule that says a spellcaster can get any spell they want. Fix magic item creation to cost more. Not use Point Buys. Roll for hit points. And maybe most of all do the unfair things to spellcasters even if it is, as a whiny player would say a direct attack on my fun and enjoyment of the game.

So..... It can work -if- the DM completely overhauls the system into something more reminiscent of 2e or some other system.

It's not entitlement to expect the system to work like the books say it does. There's nothing wrong with changing the system, even very dramatically, as long as you're up front about it but then you're talking about your specific game that uses 3.5 as a basis rather than D&D 3.5.

Also, the first is a completely unreasonable, bordering on madness, suggestion. The second is useless against a skilled illusionist or enchanter and the third is a level of tyranny that lends itself to invasion by CG freedom fighters who will try to crush the system and LG who will ignore the unjust laws as they try to reform or replace the government.

Keeping magic at bay without magic of your own simply isn't feasible in 3.5.

Juntao112

2013-12-08, 07:43 PM

TuggyNE

2013-12-08, 07:45 PM

1. The Nuke. Have the city built on a cliff, floating on the water or built on top of a volcano. Should a mage try any ''funny stuff'', the people can just destroy the city. And all people can have poison hollow teeth.

Ah. So, if someone threatens to destroy or conquer the city, the city destroys itself. Yes, this can't possibly fail.

2. Secret Forces. So secret no one other then like a handful know about them. They are about in and around the city watching. Should they see magic or the signs of magic, they act.

And, of course, these secret forces are somehow able to a) evade any magical attempts at detecting them, b) discern magic-users even if they are very well concealed, and c) kill magic-users even if they are very powerful and well-prepared. Quite so.

3. Codes. You just have multiple codes for everything. Make it hard for any outsider to get anywhere. This works great with the secret forces.

And what do these codes do, exactly, to prevent a caster from, oh I dunno, using detect thoughts to take the code from a guard's mind or glibness to justify why they somehow don't have the right code or apocalypse from the sky to just blow everything up anyway? What precisely would a hostile caster need from the city that the codes would prevent?

But to pull this off in 3.5E, you really need to fix all the magic oversights.

Well, it's nice to know you agree that, by the rules as they are written, such a city would be doomed. :smallwink:

And maybe most of all do the unfair things to spellcasters even if it is, as a whiny player would say a direct attack on my fun and enjoyment of the game.

I … couldn't have come up with a better reason not to make those changes if I tried. "It's OK and even required to directly attack the fun a spellcaster's player gets out of the game"? :smalleek:

Karnith

2013-12-08, 07:46 PM

Ah, so their plan is to destroy the city in order to save it.
At least they'll be able to say that the wizard didn't kill them.

MonochromeTiger

2013-12-08, 07:49 PM

At least they'll be able to say that the wizard didn't kill them.

depends on how twisty your logic is. technically if the wizard hadn't showed up to conquer or kill the city they wouldn't have killed themselves, thus the wizard contributed heavily to their suicide-by-facepalm.

Karnith

2013-12-08, 07:55 PM

depends on how twisty your logic is. technically if the wizard hadn't showed up to conquer or kill the city they wouldn't have killed themselves, thus the wizard contributed heavily to their suicide-by-facepalm.
Yes, but when you refuse to use magic (etc.) to fight wizards, the best you can hope for is a technical victory.
I love explaining my jokes.
Should I have put it in blue to make it clearer that I was kidding?

HaikenEdge

2013-12-08, 07:59 PM

1. The Nuke. Have the city built on a cliff, floating on the water or built on top of a volcano. Should a mage try any ''funny stuff'', the people can just destroy the city. And all people can have poison hollow teeth.

At this point, you might as well take a page from Mahou Sensei Negima and make the reason why the people hate magic is because the entire city is comprised entirely of sentient illusions, the city itself included, and any sufficiently high enough level magic spell would dispel them from existence, which would lead to why the people might blow it all up and/or commit mass suicide, if by doing so they can respawn in XdY days/weeks/months/years, whereas a proper dispel kills them forever.

Benthesquid

2013-12-08, 08:01 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-08, 08:08 PM

At this point, you might as well take a page from Mahou Sensei Negima and make the reason why the people hate magic is because the entire city is comprised entirely of sentient illusions, the city itself included, and any sufficiently high enough level magic spell would dispel them from existence, which would lead to why the people might blow it all up and/or commit mass suicide, if by doing so they can respawn in XdY days/weeks/months/years, whereas a proper dispel kills them forever.

....... Campaign idea identified.

I'm totally stealing that.

* wonders why this never occurred to him when actually reading Negima *

Evandar

2013-12-08, 08:15 PM

I'd probably give the city something like a huge Ranger corps (using the non-magic ACF), a massively disciplined standing army, or a monastery of extremely powerful monks. An optimized spellcaster would still chew through them, but they could plausibly survive if the power level of the campaign isn't too high.

NPCs tend not be uber-optimized as well.

An insane PC (see: all PCs, don't deny it) could probably roll heads left and right though, barring things like the aforementioned giant Dead Magic Zone.

HaikenEdge

2013-12-08, 08:22 PM

....... Campaign idea identified.

I'm totally stealing that.

* wonders why this never occurred to him when actually reading Negima *

When you run this campaign, you should give the main character a trait where, upon sneezing, a Gust of Wind is triggered, blowing away the clothes of the people in proximity.

Also, Sagitta Magicka = Magic Missiles.

Karnith

2013-12-08, 08:23 PM

Honest question- how high can you boost Diplomacy scores without magic or magic items?
What level are we talking? Because with a Venerable Half-Elf Marshal/Half-Elf Paragon/Human Paragon/Exemplar build, you can get:
Skill ranks
+Cha bonus (start at 18, +3 from age, +2 each from Half-Elf Paragon and Human Paragon, plus the bonuses from leveling up)
+Cha bonus again from the Motivate Charisma aura (from the Marshal class in the Miniatures Handbook)
+2 from Half-Elf
+1 from Half-Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfElfParagon) (technically a +3 that replaces the normal racial bonus)
+3 from Skill Focus
+2 from Negotiator
+2 synergy bonus from Bluff
+2 synergy bonus from Knowledge (nobility and royalty)
+2 synergy bonus from Sense Motive
+4 competence bonus from Exemplar (Complete Adventurer)
+1 to each synergy bonus thanks to Complementary Insight (Races of Destiny)
Maybe a +2 circumstance bonus from masterwork tools; ask your DM
At level 1, a character can have a Diplomacy modifier of 4 ranks +5 Cha +5 Motivate Charisma +2 racial +3 Skill Focus +2 Negotiator=+21. By level 11, that's 14 ranks +8 Cha +8 Motivate Charisma +3 racial +3 Skill Focus +2 Negotiator +3 Bluff synergy +3 Knowledge synergy +3 Sense Motive synergy +4 competence, yielding a Diplomacy modifier of +51.

With the Smooth Talk feat (from Player's Guide to Faerun; only available at level 1), you can make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action at only a -5 penalty.

That's discounting the use of all forms of magic, including spells, magic items, Supernatural abilities, and Spell-like Abilities.
And I don't even know that much about hardcore diplomancy; I'm sure someone else could do much better.

Benthesquid

2013-12-08, 09:11 PM

TuggyNE

2013-12-08, 09:48 PM

Another way this could work

1. The City is protected. It's part of a long running contest/experiment/treaty/bet between the forces of Heaven and Hell (or any two opposing cosmic forces of your choice). Magic users and magical creatures that interfere with the City tend to vanish suddenly and nastily in the dead of night- and that's if they're lucky. But part of the deal is the Powers keep their hands off.

That's a decent phrasing of "fiat", although I'd prefer there to be some sort of defined mechanical explanation (even if it is only available to the players with enormous investigative effort). Any effect that's just "yeah, you're just kind of gone" should be used extremely rarely.

HaikenEdge

2013-12-08, 10:03 PM

Benthesquid

2013-12-08, 10:14 PM

That's a decent phrasing of "fiat", although I'd prefer there to be some sort of defined mechanical explanation (even if it is only available to the players with enormous investigative effort). Any effect that's just "yeah, you're just kind of gone" should be used extremely rarely.

Well, it really depends on which opposing forces you pick, and who the party is. A Good Aligned Cleric who wandered in might just get a very stern warning from a Solar to stay clear, whereas a Diabolist might find a Pit Fiend showing up to drag him Down Below for upsetting the game.

Besides, didn't the OP already say they used magic in the city, and they just got some really dirty looks for their efforts?

Well, yes. I'm not speaking as to the specific case here, which I think is probably just a matter of GM fiat, but to the general idea of how such a city could survive. Alternatively, it's possible that they just haven't made a big enough stir to get the Big Guys' attention. They show up to deal with anything that would actually threaten the city, and leave the city' own hatred of mages to deal with lower level threat.

Phelix-Mu

2013-12-08, 10:17 PM

Whatever, the OP totally has to update us with the PC's investigation details. This speculation is killing me.

Props to the sentient illusion thing. I recall an adventure seed from some book on gnomes that talked about this kind of theme. Totally drawing a blank on where it is...but going to throw a rock and say it's...Races of Stone. Wow, really wish more of that pun had been intentional....

A large wild magic zone is also a possible explanation, and one that would mesh better with what the OP described. Maybe spells cast in this area just have a very large chance of having randomly bad effects. Most spellcasters would avoid the area, and the residents would dislike magic because it might randomly harm people (or do other weirdness like rainbow paper butterflies that bother everyone while they are sleeping).

Tysis

2013-12-08, 10:22 PM

What level are we talking? Because with a Venerable Half-Elf Marshal/Half-Elf Paragon/Human Paragon/Exemplar build, you can get:
Skill ranks
+Cha bonus (start at 18, +3 from age, +2 each from Half-Elf Paragon and Human Paragon, plus the bonuses from leveling up)
+Cha bonus again from the Motivate Charisma aura (from the Marshal class in the Miniatures Handbook)
+2 from Half-Elf
+1 from Half-Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfElfParagon) (technically a +3 that replaces the normal racial bonus)
+3 from Skill Focus
+2 from Negotiator
+2 synergy bonus from Bluff
+2 synergy bonus from Knowledge (nobility and royalty)
+2 synergy bonus from Sense Motive
+4 competence bonus from Exemplar (Complete Adventurer)
+1 to each synergy bonus thanks to Complementary Insight (Races of Destiny)
Maybe a +2 circumstance bonus from masterwork tools; ask your DM
At level 1, a character can have a Diplomacy modifier of 4 ranks +5 Cha +5 Motivate Charisma +2 racial +3 Skill Focus +2 Negotiator=+21. By level 11, that's 14 ranks +8 Cha +8 Motivate Charisma +3 racial +3 Skill Focus +2 Negotiator +3 Bluff synergy +3 Knowledge synergy +3 Sense Motive synergy +4 competence, yielding a Diplomacy modifier of +51.

With the Smooth Talk feat (from Player's Guide to Faerun; only available at level 1), you can make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action at only a -5 penalty.

That's discounting the use of all forms of magic, including spells, magic items, Supernatural abilities, and Spell-like Abilities.
And I don't even know that much about hardcore diplomancy; I'm sure someone else could do much better.

We dont even need to optimize it really, if the entire city uses aid another for their main diplomat.

Just picture a city of half-elves that chants "one of us, one of us" whenever a threat is perceived and oh by the way the one in front now has like +4000 to his diplomancy check

HaikenEdge

2013-12-08, 10:27 PM

A large wild magic zone is also a possible explanation, and one that would mesh better with what the OP described. Maybe spells cast in this area just have a very large chance of having randomly bad effects. Most spellcasters would avoid the area, and the residents would dislike magic because it might randomly harm people (or do other weirdness like rainbow paper butterflies that bother everyone while they are sleeping).

Really like this idea, much better than the dead magic idea; in a dead magic zone, there's no reason for them to hate spellcasters, since magic just won't work in the region, so they'd be more or less ambivalent, whereas, in a wild magic zone, magic is really hazardous to everybody in the vicinity.

ryu

2013-12-08, 10:28 PM

We dont even need to optimize it really, if the entire city uses aid another for their main diplomat.

Just picture a city of half-elves that chants "one of us, one of us" whenever a threat is perceived and oh by the way the one in front now has like +4000 to his diplomancy check

Not a good idea. What if the wizard brought spellcasting minions or contingencies centered on people trying to diplomance him? What if he sends an ice assassin remoted controlled through the mental link that physically can't disobey him despite being fanatical to the villagers? There's just too many holes in this diplomancy strategy to be a legitimate means of defending against high level wizards.

Karnith

2013-12-08, 10:42 PM

Not a good idea. What if the wizard brought spellcasting minions or contingencies centered on people trying to diplomance him? What if he sends an ice assassin remoted controlled through the mental link that physically can't disobey him despite being fanatical to the villagers? There's just too many holes in this diplomancy strategy to be a legitimate means of defending against high level wizards.
Or, God forbid, what if one of the high-level spellcasters is a PC? Yay metagaming

ryu

2013-12-08, 10:48 PM

Or, God forbid, what if one of the high-level spellcasters is a PC? Yay metagaming

Yeah that too. When there are a semi-endless number of plans which can curbstomp you with no chance of actually failing your defensive strategy simply isn't up to dealing with high level wizards who have some of the best information gathering, paranoia fluff, and contingency planning methods.

Tysis

2013-12-08, 11:10 PM

Yeah that too. When there are a semi-endless number of plans which can curbstomp you with no chance of actually failing your defensive strategy simply isn't up to dealing with high level wizards who have some of the best information gathering, paranoia fluff, and contingency planning methods.

A high level wizard can do whatever they want, no exceptions. If they aren't smart enough to accomplish their goals there's no way they would have made it to high level. So saying a plan doesn't work against high op casters is pointless because nothing does, except a higher level/op caster.

However, most beings in the multiverse aren't high-level casters and it's those entities that are far more likely to happen upon said city of half-elves that would be vulnerable to diplomacy.

ryu

2013-12-08, 11:17 PM

A high level wizard can do whatever they want, no exceptions. If they aren't smart enough to accomplish their goals there's no way they would have made it to high level. So saying a plan doesn't work against high op casters is pointless because nothing does, except a higher level/op caster.

However, most beings in the multiverse aren't high-level casters and it's those entities that are far more likely to happen upon said city of half-elves that would be vulnerable to diplomacy.

Here's the thing though: The high level ones are also the ones most likely to seek the place out. A low level wizard is more concerned with completing enough quests and adventures to become a mid level wizard. A mid level wizard is more concerned with setting the foundations of his learning to attain the power of high level wizard. The high level wizard? He does what he want. Even a single petty high level wizard learning of this place is all it takes.

Spuddles

2013-12-08, 11:29 PM

Aside from that sentence sounding really cool, breeding spirraxes (spirrai?) is probably a bad idea, assuming that is the critter you are referring to.

There are literally a million things that could be going on. The big one that jumps to mind is that the court vizier is actually a powerful spellcaster that has bewitched the rulers into forbidding magic, as a first (and innocuous) level of defense against rival casters. With everyone on the lookout for magic, scry-and-die would be very easy for a secret high-level caster to implement, especially if using a network of mindraped informants (or some less evil variety of that strategy).

So, basically, I'd have my eyes peeled for a Rasputin figure.

But that is hardly the only way this could be going. Perhaps a death cult has been grooming this population for mass extermination for a nigh a century, and forbidding magic was a sensible precaution to prevent anyone from divining their plans. *puts idea in notebook*:smallcool:

Or bodysnatchers have outlawed magic so there are no means to detect them.

Spuddles

2013-12-08, 11:31 PM

Tysis

2013-12-08, 11:55 PM

Here's the thing though: The high level ones are also the ones most likely to seek the place out. A low level wizard is more concerned with completing enough quests and adventures to become a mid level wizard. A mid level wizard is more concerned with setting the foundations of his learning to attain the power of high level wizard. The high level wizard? He does what he want. Even a single petty high level wizard learning of this place is all it takes.

Why would a high level wizard seek this place out? The city has no magic items for him to take, he can create more gold than the city has, he can create a better army than the citizens of this city.

If anything the city helps high level casters by preventing low level casters from reaching high level, the only reason I can think of for a wizard to visit the city other than curiosity, which can be done by scrying, is to help the city keep itself free of magic and perhaps spread its influence.

But again if a high level wizard wants to nuke a random city for the evulz nothing can stop him. Unless he wants to nuke Sigil, that make actually require more than just casting apocalypse from the sky and laughing.

avr

2013-12-08, 11:56 PM

So long as there are some sort of hidden special forces or magic items or something, this is possible. If not, a single CR 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) monster can TPK the city.

Oh, and the hidden forces won't be able to be that hidden as they will be required to deal with not uncommon monsters. Gather Info should be able to find them.

ryu

2013-12-09, 12:02 AM

Why would a high level wizard seek this place out? The city has no magic items for him to take, he can create more gold than the city has, he can create a better army than the citizens of this city.

If anything the city helps high level casters by preventing low level casters from reaching high level, the only reason I can think of for a wizard to visit the city other than curiosity, which can be done by scrying, is to help the city keep itself free of magic and perhaps spread its influence.

But again if a high level wizard wants to nuke a random city for the evulz nothing can stop him. Unless he wants to nuke Sigil, that make actually require more than just casting apocalypse from the sky and laughing.

I didn't say ''for the evulz.'' I said petty. While destroying this likely neutral village for petty reasons is undeniably evil and thus done by an evil caster, it is not evil for the sake of evil. It's destruction for the sake of pettiness. That's the power a high level wizard has. They literally can just destroy a village on the whim that it offends them in some way. I've seen less plausible motivations for villains.

Totema

2013-12-09, 12:04 AM

I suppose it all comes down to how the city is meant to function in its setting. Is it supposed to be Cannon Fodder-ville or The Doomed Village At The Beginning of Every Video Game RPG? Then it's completely screwed; the city will have absolutely no defense against a powerful magic user, and it's only a matter of time before the evil wizard rolls along and turns it into a parking lot. Or is it meant to be a main hangout for the party, or have some kind of key significance to the plot? Then its magic phobia will likely be better thought out, and it may feature the use of an anti-magic field, or just a good old Deus Ex Machina. Hell, the setting itself may have a weakened or nonexistent presence of magic, in which case our hypothetical city might go along just fine.

Juntao112

2013-12-09, 12:09 AM

monastery of extremely powerful monks

I don't think an order of devout religious Experts will do much against a spellcaster.

Mnemnosyne

2013-12-09, 12:47 AM

There are at least a few actual reasons for a mid to low level magic user to come in and wreck this place, too. The quickest to come to mind is it seems like a great source of spawning undead for their army. The whole 'create/command one wight/shadow/spawning undead and make it spawn more, then order the spawn to follow your commands unquestioningly' gambit.

In most places, someone would be able to deal with that before it got unstoppably powerful, but in a place where nobody has magic of any kind, not even magical items? A single low to mid level guy can create a vast army of reasonably powerful undead. And depending on how many truly high level characters exist in this world, that army could be a serious threat even to well-armed nations that do use magic, if level 10+ people aren't common in this setting.

A setting populated almost entirely by sub-10 characters can maybe handle something like that when it's in its starting stages. It would be damned near impossible to stop once the guy has gotten his army rolling, and he'd be able to do so in a city that has absolutely no magic to defend them. A cleric or a dread necromancer optimized for controlling undead can do this very early, starting with just one rebuked 'seed' creature of each spawning undead type he wants as part of his army. And if it's a city of ten to twenty thousand, that gives him...well, however many of those do not manage to run the hell away before he has secured the perimeter and made fleeing impossible.

Tysis

2013-12-09, 12:50 AM

I didn't say ''for the evulz.'' I said petty. While destroying this likely neutral village for petty reasons is undeniably evil and thus done by an evil caster, it is not evil for the sake of evil. It's destruction for the sake of pettiness. That's the power a high level wizard has. They literally can just destroy a village on the whim that it offends them in some way. I've seen less plausible motivations for villains.

I think murdering an entire city because reasons would qualify as 'for the evulz.'

ryu

2013-12-09, 01:29 AM

I think murdering an entire city because reasons would qualify as 'for the evulz.'

There's a distinct difference from murdering purely for the sake of reveling in mindless pain, suffering, and the destruction of life or ''for the evulz'' and doing so because the target of your effort legitimately offends you. Now don't get me wrong. Both are unquestionably evil, neither is justifiable, and both being witnessed are justifications to any good character that that person probably needs to die. They are still inherently different kinds of evil though.

AMFV

2013-12-09, 01:34 AM

There's a distinct difference from murdering purely for the sake of reveling in mindless pain, suffering, and the destruction of life or ''for the evulz'' and doing so because the target of your effort legitimately offends you. Now don't get me wrong. Both are unquestionably evil, neither is justifiable, and both being witnessed are justifications to any good character that that person probably needs to die. They are still inherently different kinds of evil though.

I'm curious as to why this offend a high level spell caster enough to actually become involved. Again you'll find that he gains absolutely nothing from doing it. This is either vindictive or petty, both of which are the result of the insane or petty type villain.

The further problem has been outlined, a high level caster can wreck most things, even having magic won't keep you safe. In fact not having anything worth saving is the best way to remain safe.

ryu

2013-12-09, 01:54 AM

I'm curious as to why this offend a high level spell caster enough to actually become involved. Again you'll find that he gains absolutely nothing from doing it. This is either vindictive or petty, both of which are the result of the insane or petty type villain.

The further problem has been outlined, a high level caster can wreck most things, even having magic won't keep you safe. In fact not having anything worth saving is the best way to remain safe.

For pity's sake man villains from most D&D novels have sillier motivations. There's an entire species of underground chaos lovers who in canon are willing to start wars without ever learning the danger of the sun just to track down one rebel.

Further the best way to be safe is to not have anything, and also not get obstinate with the closest thing most people in world will ever see to gods.

AMFV

2013-12-09, 02:36 AM

For pity's sake man villains from most D&D novels have sillier motivations. There's an entire species of underground chaos lovers who in canon are willing to start wars without ever learning the danger of the sun just to track down one rebel.

Further the best way to be safe is to not have anything, and also not get obstinate with the closest thing most people in world will ever see to gods.

But the villain's motivations are dictated by the DM, since it's his story there's no reason to introduce ridiculous villains to destroy his city, unless he wants to.

Marlowe

2013-12-09, 03:12 AM

I've got an entire Civilisation in the Southern Comfort campaign that's a little like this. Frenzied distrust of Arcane magic users, and the Divines are tolerated but have to put a lid on everything they do for fear of being exiled. We'll call it Civ R.

It's a problem in my worldbuilding. Because the other civilisations are nothing like this. I've been trying to justify why aforesaid civilisation still exists as follows.

Civilisation A: Extremely magically powerful though with a small population, united with lots of squabbling, organised and generally competent, and with basic ideals that are totally opposed to Civ R. Yet focused on looking out for nastier things than a pack of medieval dickweeds. They're watching for Cosmic Horrors; they don't bother with Civ R very much except to wreck their stuff once in a while to blow off steam.

Civ P: Has plenty of magic, but very loosely organised and with little sense of themselves as a nation. Power tends to derive from the boss of whatever town you're in. No real organisation beyond that, and little contact with Civ R anyway. Naturally quite martial, but not especially aggressive.

Civ E: Again has plenty of magic. Divided into various states that have fun fighting and trading with each other. Civ R is no threat to them and there's some major mountains in the way, so they don't bother and the various state leaders are more concerned with local problems than how much of a mess Civ R is.

Civ U: Very magically powerful though less so than civ A. Divided into feuding city states that barely get along and their territory is an absolute mess. It's all desert and random Ghoul attacks for them. They don't have the united resources to hit Civ R decisely even if the thought occurred to them.

TL:DR

Civ R is a Robert E. Howard story
Civ E is a Terry Pratchett story
Civ U is a Clark Aston Smith story
Civ P is a Poul Anderson story
Civ A is an Iain M. Banks story

Juntao112

2013-12-09, 03:39 AM

Totema

2013-12-09, 03:43 AM

The city could have sentenced a friend of his to death for being a spellcaster.
And how exactly would he have been successfully executed, if he is a spellcaster but the cityfolk aren't?

Drachasor

2013-12-09, 04:04 AM

I think we're likely coming up with ideas that are a lot more interesting than what it will end up being.

It could be that using magic IS really bad in this place. Perhaps a local phenomenon or perhaps this is another plane. Maybe using magic causes lots of side effects (dead rising, disease, random magic bursts in the area for days). Or maybe it draws the attention of Nameless Things and allows them access to the world (more magic, more access). Or perhaps they do have high tech and magic messes it up (though I think this trope is overused). Tons of ways to adapt this.

This can be made to be nuanced too. Proper study might allow an educated caster to avoid these problems with preparation, but newbie casters who don't know better have always wrecked things.

As for how screwed such a city is, it depends on what qualifies as "magic" to them. If Supernatural Powers are ok but Spells and Spell-likes aren't, then they still have a ton of options. They could even have anti-caster squads with special feats and powers. It would take some homebrew, but it is workable. Heck, a lot of it could seem pretty "low tech". A "compass" that points to major magical activity -- perhaps a set of compasses that each require a higher level of magic to move (so low-level distractions can be noticed but ignored if necessary). Fast communication is certainly possible with relatively low tech. So you could have pretty swift responses overall.

I think abilities/equipment that REFLECT magic could easily fit into such a town.

That's ignoring magic dampening, dead magic, and backfiring magic which often isn't that interesting.

If attacking the town would be difficult and it isn't full of treasure, then it could easily be too much trouble. Though they might well have the best non-magical medicine and engineering. Or perhaps instead of tech they use biology.

mabriss lethe

2013-12-09, 04:07 AM

And how exactly would he have been successfully executed, if he is a spellcaster but the cityfolk aren't?

There's nothing saying that the cityfolk were right. Witch hunts are historically notorious for getting it wrong.

Back to the OP:
-How screwed is the city? Depends on what's really going on. It's conceivable that the common folk have far different views than the people in charge. It's also possible that the people in charge have the same views as the populace, but grudgingly dirty their hands "for the greater good." I could see a Secret police force made up of spellthieves and backed by a few full casters that make magic problems disappear. The locals have hated and feared them for so long that they associate any and all magic with practices of the despotic regime.

Totema

2013-12-09, 04:12 AM

There's nothing saying that the cityfolk were right. Witch hunts are historically notorious for getting it wrong.
There is no conundrum at all then - If he really was a spellcaster, he would have easily been able to avoid getting executed. If he wasn't a spellcaster, then he wouldn't be friends with an evil, high-powered wizard baddie in the first place, and there would be no concern for him.

Sorry, this thread makes me feel particularly sassy. :smalltongue:

The Insanity

2013-12-09, 04:48 AM

A city with no magic would probably have a lot of powerful mundane heroes.

AMFV

2013-12-09, 06:17 AM

The city could have sentenced a friend of his to death for being a spellcaster.

Right, but as far as we know that's never happened. Again history being the provenience of the DM it is not entirely unreasonable to assume that has never happened. Also given that high level casters are such a small fraction of the population elsewhere and few of them are likely to have friends in this particular city, it is extremely unlikely that it would happen even if the DM didn't fiat it away.

TuggyNE

2013-12-09, 07:37 AM

A city with no magic would probably have a lot of powerful mundane heroes.

Quite so. Surprisingly many, in fact.

Malroth

2013-12-09, 07:43 AM

Kudaku

2013-12-09, 07:57 AM

This made me think of Far Madding from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time...

Far Madding is a city in a world where Aes Sedai (spellcasters) are rare, organized, and make a habit of manipulating (or just toppling) governments. It's tradition for each monarch to have at least one Aes Sedai on his council, and whatever advice the Aes Sedai gives they tend to take very seriously. Whereever Aes Sedai go they're respected, honored, and more than a little feared.

Far Madding is the exception in that it has a ter'angreal (objects of power from a previous era, essentially magic items) that creates an "anti-magic zone" that stops male spellcasters from casting about a mile outside the city, and female casters at the city limits. While they still respect Aes Sedai, there's also a little bit of hostility or even contempt directed towards them. On the other hand spellcasters tend to avoid the city since being separated from the source (ie being inside the anti-magic zone) is an uncomfortable experience.

A link with more information about Far Madding and the wheel of time series in general can be found here (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Madding).

Another example could be Athkatla in Baldur's Gate 2. All arcane spellcasting in the city is outlawed and the laws are enforced by a mage group (sanctioned by the local government) called the Cowled Wizards. Any arcane spellcasters who wish to cast spells inside city borders must either do some work for the city council in order to earn their trust and get a permit, pay a fairly hefty bribe to get the same permit, or prepare to have "special operations"-teams of wizards teleport in whenever arcane magic is detected.

Note that both of these examples are less aggressive in their handling of spellcasters than the city described in the OP.

To conclude: I think a city that hates, ostracizes and refuses to deal with spellcasters better have a damn good safety system in place to deal with any spellcasters who refuse to follow that rule system. And the best counter to magic is magic.

Brookshw

2013-12-09, 08:44 AM

Just for world building fun:

After the fall of the Netheril empire the lucky survivors banded together to seek out a means of surviving in a world where all they had built was suddenly washed away. Having seen first hand the destruction that can be caused by the pursuit of magic they developed a deep distrust of magic and a cultural shift took place. To try and avoid the dangers magic brings they establish a city in a magic dead zone near a trade crossroads. As they grew various races started establishing strong trade relationships with the city. Knowing that magical influences would not effect decisions it became known as a prime place for the trading of non-magical goods. Factions and representatives of many nations established embassies in the city striking a power balance. Though many of the factions could have taken the city over the diplomatic repercussions would have been severe and the loss of a neutral trading ground was seen as too costly in the long run.

I could see something like this making sense in a campaign though its not especially related to the op.

jedipotter

2013-12-09, 11:20 AM

Keeping magic at bay without magic of your own simply isn't feasible in 3.5.

Well, you could build a city in a dead magic zone. That is within ''some'' rules. Or have a city on a No Magic plane.

And the rules don't stop you from putting in things like ''The Cain Spire drains all magic with in five miles(no save)'' or ''any spells cast do 6d6 damage untyped to the spellcaster per level''.

Sure page whatever of whatever book does not say that, but you could still do it.

Tysis

2013-12-09, 06:35 PM

This City doesn't even need to offend an evil high lv wizard to meet its own doom, its entirely possible for the correct wizard build to destroy the city by accident at lv 1 simply by defending himself from the hostile townsfolk.

An evoker 1 with fell drain and metamagic school focus (evocation) can carry a Fell Drain modified sonic snap in his first level slots which would cause a lv 1 target to gain a negative level which would instantly kill them and cause them to raise up as an uncontrolled wight a few minutes later. Since any meaningful defenses against a wight are magical in nature its going to raise dozens of spawn before its stopped.

They wouldn't rise as a wight til the following night, the body would be burned before then and the level one wizard killed immediately after casting the spell.

Although wights speak common, so what if the town diplomanced the wight created by the wizard into creating an army of wights to protect the city.

Angelalex242

2013-12-09, 06:54 PM

I wonder how thorough 'all magic users' is...

It probably includes Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Sorc...

But does it include Bard/Paladin/Ranger too?

And PrCs like Blackguard, Arcane Archer, and so on?

GoodbyeSoberDay

2013-12-09, 07:10 PM

You've never read any adam smith, have you.A condescending, completely mistaken ad-hominem attack instead of an argument? Color me surprised.

Because you couldn't be bothered to come up with an actual argument I'll just point out that the crux of my argument renders moot whether such a city would be wealthy in a world beyond Adam Smith's imagining. If the city is rich, then the next peeved wizard has all the incentive to take over the city one way or another. If the city is poor, he doesn't bother, but they also don't have the resources to entirely fend off more mundane threats.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-09, 07:13 PM

Well, you could build a city in a dead magic zone. That is within ''some'' rules. Or have a city on a No Magic plane.

And the rules don't stop you from putting in things like ''The Cain Spire drains all magic with in five miles(no save)'' or ''any spells cast do 6d6 damage untyped to the spellcaster per level''.

Sure page whatever of whatever book does not say that, but you could still do it.

DM fiat can do whatever it wants. Invoking rule zero amounts to agreeing that it can't be done within the existing rules.

Only the DMZ is actually in the books and they can be undone by magic too albeit fairly gradually. They also exist completely independent of any mortal desires one way or the other. After generations in an area where magic simply doesn't function the logical conclusion of the people as a whole would be indifference not hostility.

If they were actively hostile to all magic it would only be a matter of time before pro magic groups would have eroded that DMZ right up to the city walls. Then a siege that the city couldn't possibly break would lead to them allowing the mages to further erode the DMZ until it simply didn't exist anymore and then we're back to their city being defenseless against mages unless they adapt.

AMFV

2013-12-09, 07:17 PM

DM fiat can do whatever it wants. Invoking rule zero amounts to agreeing that it can't be done within the existing rules.

Only the DMZ is actually in the books and they can be undone by magic too albeit fairly gradually. They also exist completely independent of any mortal desires one way or the other. After generations in an area where magic simply doesn't function the logical conclusion of the people as a whole would be indifference not hostility.

If they were actively hostile to all magic it would only be a matter of time before pro magic groups would have eroded that DMZ right up to the city walls. Then a siege that the city couldn't possibly break would lead to them allowing the mages to further erode the DMZ until it simply didn't exist anymore and then we're back to their city being defenseless against mages unless they adapt.
The problem is that if you invoke the standard rules, all economies fall apart, travel becomes an irrelevancy, there is no disease in the world. All labor is done by undead or constructs. Once you start using real world rationale in a D&D world it goes to a place of madness, that's why it would work, because it's fine unless you think too hard about it, and if you think too hard about anything medieval in a high magic setting that happens.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-09, 11:51 PM

The problem is that if you invoke the standard rules, all economies fall apart, travel becomes an irrelevancy, there is no disease in the world. All labor is done by undead or constructs. Once you start using real world rationale in a D&D world it goes to a place of madness, that's why it would work, because it's fine unless you think too hard about it, and if you think too hard about anything medieval in a high magic setting that happens.

That only seems to be the case because the density of magic users in the general population is grossly overestimated and the interests of certain deities are ignored. Gods of agriculture, travel, and commerce would certainly act against certain developments and acts detrimental to their portfolios and casters capable of producing ninth level spell effects are borderline unique creatures. That is to say they're so rare that they're never randomly generated.

That said, I acknowledge that logic does get selectively applied to what I'd estimate to be over 90ish percent of actual games.

AMFV

2013-12-10, 02:19 AM

That only seems to be the case because the density of magic users in the general population is grossly overestimated and the interests of certain deities are ignored. Gods of agriculture, travel, and commerce would certainly act against certain developments and acts detrimental to their portfolios and casters capable of producing ninth level spell effects are borderline unique creatures. That is to say they're so rare that they're never randomly generated.

That said, I acknowledge that logic does get selectively applied to what I'd estimate to be over 90ish percent of actual games.

Exactly, so holding something to a standard that is only really followed in 10% of games is a little harsh. Although I would estimate that far fewer than that are actually tippyverse type games which is the logical development. If a ruler has people that can create undead, constructs, or summon why use workers that can starve. Argriculture is the core of most of the Earth's populations struggles for most of it's life, without that we can't know how culture or society would develop.

Create food and water would certainly destroy a lot of the need for farms, or large tracts of land, there's no reason to leave a city at that point. Teleport fundamentally alters the reality of warfare. Although sending and message change it more actually, communication being flawless and non-interceptable, would make most medieval warfare obsolete. It would pretty quickly devolve into the Tippyverse even without 9th level spells.

The Insanity

2013-12-10, 02:22 AM

Could modern RW be considered tippyverse-ish?

AMFV

2013-12-10, 02:41 AM

Could modern RW be considered tippyverse-ish?

Nope. We still fly Soldiers to the battlefield and they walk when they're there. In a Tippyverse world that'd be an untenable liability. Everyone teleports to as close to the enemies as possible to cut off leadership. There's no chain of logistics since food and most materials can be created on sight, with minor creation, major creation, create food and water etc.

The communication thing is significant, the radio completely altered modern warfare, making certain kinds of tactics possible, adding the ability for more complex strategies or to adjust strategies as the battle was taking place without sending messengers. And that's just one change we've seen, god knows how teleport would affect the real world.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-10, 02:48 AM

Exactly, so holding something to a standard that is only really followed in 10% of games is a little harsh. Although I would estimate that far fewer than that are actually tippyverse type games which is the logical development. If a ruler has people that can create undead, constructs, or summon why use workers that can starve. Argriculture is the core of most of the Earth's populations struggles for most of it's life, without that we can't know how culture or society would develop.

Create food and water would certainly destroy a lot of the need for farms, or large tracts of land, there's no reason to leave a city at that point. Teleport fundamentally alters the reality of warfare. Although sending and message change it more actually, communication being flawless and non-interceptable, would make most medieval warfare obsolete. It would pretty quickly devolve into the Tippyverse even without 9th level spells.

Now hold on just a minute. I said logic is applied -selectively- in most games, not discarded altogether.

There simply aren't enough casters in the population to produce enough food and water to supplant traditional agriculture. Create food and water traps -might- eventually become common place but before that clerics of deities of agriculture and possibly commerce would seek out these devices and their creators with the intent of destroying the devices and preventing their recreation, nevermind all the deities of death, decay, and evil that would want to do the same or monopolize the devices for their own use as tools of tyranny.

The same largely applies to extensive networks of teleportation devices and deities of travel and possibly commerce.

Gods of commerce don't think much of things that can eliminate whole sectors of commerce.

Don't get me wrong, Tippyverse is definitely a strong enough possibility that in an old enough campaign world it is a likely outcome but it's not a certainty and it can easily take an immense amount of time to actually come to fruition. People tend to ignore the gods as a euphamism for DM fiat but they -are- an active force in most campaign worlds and outright ignoring their influence on the world doesn't make any more sense than ignoring the presence of undead or dragons.

The fact that a Tippyesque timeline moves through a spectrum of increasingly optimized setting details rather than simply being a binary matter of either op or not is also often overlooked.

AMFV

2013-12-10, 03:02 AM

Now hold on just a minute. I said logic is applied -selectively- in most games, not discarded altogether.

There simply aren't enough casters in the population to produce enough food and water to supplant traditional agriculture. Create food and water traps -might- eventually become common place but before that clerics of deities of agriculture and possibly commerce would seek out these devices and their creators with the intent of destroying the devices and preventing their recreation, nevermind all the deities of death, decay, and evil that would want to do the same or monopolize the devices for their own use as tools of tyranny.

Create Food and Water creates enough food for 15 people a day at the time it can be created. So one casting of that would require a population of 1/15 clerics to support the demand. Multiple castings would reduce that. While 1/30th of clerics might still be in that respect it's no longer improbably high, and 1/45th of the population sounds like a very nearly sure thing. Especially if you factor in that higher level clerics can exist.

Then the deities of agriculture wouldn't be worshipped and would fade away, unless they changed their portfolio to just be "sustenance" which is much more reasonable than killing all the clerics higher than 3rd level.

The same largely applies to extensive networks of teleportation devices and deities of travel and possibly commerce.

Gods of commerce don't think much of things that can eliminate whole sectors of commerce.

Why not? The God's of Agriculture aren't opposed to agricultural improvement. Commerce still exists, there's just no reason to walk across the open lands.

Secondly there is no reason why the military angle wouldn't be completely changed, even if the Gods are on the other side, frankly if you have to resort to "the god's wouldn't allow it" which may or may not be true, then it's a pretty flimsy argument in and of itself, there is precious little evidence that the Gods want a backwards medieval society, but that's what exists in most D&D worlds.

Don't get me wrong, Tippyverse is definitely a strong enough possibility that in an old enough campaign world it is a likely outcome but it's not a certainty and it can easily take an immense amount of time to actually come to fruition. People tend to ignore the gods as a euphamism for DM fiat but they -are- an active force in most campaign worlds and outright ignoring their influence on the world doesn't make any more sense than ignoring the presence of undead or dragons.

The fact that a Tippyesque timeline moves through a spectrum of increasingly optimized setting details rather than simply being a binary matter of either op or not is also often overlooked.

But the campaign has existed for much longer than the PCs, the setting has existed long enough that it would have self-optimized to some degree. Frankly as long as third or higher level spells have existed we would start to see that sort of societal optimization.

The problem is that the Gods are an active force but they tend to have divisive or confusing viewpoints, particularly in FR, but in most other settings as well, we have no way to know if they'd have a direct objection, since they're objections depend on the author or the DM at that time.

Ergo the setting belongs to the DM and the God's could just as easily protect our non-magic city, there's no reason to suspect that certain deities wouldn't be supportive of that sort of thing. Kossuth for example, St. Cuthbert might believe that removing magic would remove temptation. So you could very easily have deities with reasons to support the city.

Vizzerdrix

2013-12-10, 03:09 AM

Hmm... Well with handle animal shenanigans (I'm talking dinos and watch spiders trained to sniff out casters), Iron heart surge, and the gnome (Lantan) artificer PrC available (with an entry requirement edit) they wouldn't have much trouble protecting themselves. They'd more than likely have to have some sort of advanced medical knowledge to handle the lack of healing spells, but this could work in their favor as a source of trade and be the reason no other country over runs them in the first place.

Also zeppelins. Think about it.

Phelix-Mu

2013-12-10, 03:19 AM

Also zeppelins. Think about it.

Aside from a certain Led one, the main zeppelin that comes to mind was not exactly something to brag about.:smallwink:

Happily, hydrogen gas isn't a thing in-game. Unhappily, magic would still pwn zeppelins pretty hard, unless the airship-users had some kind of portable AMF device...hmm, that might work.

I've been away from the discussion a bit, but I'd also like to advance the idea that a city like this could exist with a powerful monstrous, non-caster patron. Most of the strongest critters have SLAs, but this isn't always true, and maybe the critter is just working off of reputation.

Or...deepspawn? Hmm. Maybe the whole place is deepspawn replicas that are afraid of magic because they are protecting the existence of the deepspawn that spawned them. Always loved that monster. Excellent 2e vintage.

Vizzerdrix

2013-12-10, 03:27 AM

Phelix-Mu~

And with Lantan artificers around, they very well could have such a device.

Emperor Tippy

2013-12-10, 03:27 AM

The fact that a Tippyesque timeline moves through a spectrum of increasingly optimized setting details rather than simply being a binary matter of either op or not is also often overlooked.

That bit annoys me to. It's not like the world woke up one day and went "and suddenly tippyverse".

Now once it starts, once the initial event occurs, it will spread fairly rapidly (at least initially) but that initial event doesn't have to happen fast. Teleportation Circles are unlikely to even be invented until you have a level 17+ Wizard, and even once you have wizards of the relevant level (them being the ones most likely to develop new spells) it still takes (potentially) hundreds or even thousands of years before one of those wizards decides to use TC's in a military campaign or to set up a trade network.

Now once those initial TC's are publicly unveiled they will spread fast as the economic and security benefits are too massive for anything else to happen. But then you get the teleport wars as, as with any major disruptive advancement in military technology, you get the various nations and factions using their new ability to try and conquer or survive.

Most everything else spreads from that pretty much because of military necessity and the whole thing is self reinforcing. But we are easily talking a hundred or more years of "constant" warfare before you see a "mature" tippyverse and another few hundred to thousand or so years before you have a "settled and stable" tippyverse.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-10, 04:22 AM

Create Food and Water creates enough food for 15 people a day at the time it can be created. So one casting of that would require a population of 1/15 clerics to support the demand. Multiple castings would reduce that. While 1/30th of clerics might still be in that respect it's no longer improbably high, and 1/45th of the population sounds like a very nearly sure thing. Especially if you factor in that higher level clerics can exist. Yeah.... The density of 5th level and higher clerics is less than 1% in a typical setting as you can easily determine by running the numbers for generating a random settlement on DMG 137 AND 138, significantly less in fact. Seriously, less than 30 of them per 25000 people.

Then the deities of agriculture wouldn't be worshipped and would fade away, unless they changed their portfolio to just be "sustenance" which is much more reasonable than killing all the clerics higher than 3rd level. Why would you assume they'd just lay down and die like that? You're directly threatening their portfolio itself. They -will- act to defend themselves in some way. Hell, even the farmers themselves would vehemently oppose such a development as a direct threat to their livelyhood. Even within simple mortal concerns this would be a controversial development that would generate significant turmoil. It's simply not something that can be taken as a given without further considerations.

Why not? The God's of Agriculture aren't opposed to agricultural improvement. Commerce still exists, there's just no reason to walk across the open lands. The problem is that this completely eliminates the entire transportation sector of commerce. Ship captains and their crews, teamsters, porters, overland shippers, all either lose their entire way of life or find themselves suddenly competing in a massively flooded market as the need for their services is all but eliminated. Though, again, the population density of casters of that level is microscopic.

Secondly there is no reason why the military angle wouldn't be completely changed, even if the Gods are on the other side, frankly if you have to resort to "the god's wouldn't allow it" which may or may not be true, then it's a pretty flimsy argument in and of itself, there is precious little evidence that the Gods want a backwards medieval society, but that's what exists in most D&D worlds.

The communication aspect is undeniably a game changer. The wars in a D&D campaign world would progress immensely faster than they did in medieval earth. Strategic level teleportation, however, is even harder to come by than food creation, requiring a 7th level caster at minimum and the number of people transported is -small- in the face of the full military machines of opposing nations before you hit teleportation circle.

As far as the gods go, you can say with utter certainty that any deity will act in defense of his portfolio and will very likely act against the interests of his opposite number. Free, limitless food is a direct threat to gods of agriculture and the elimination of overland travel is just as threatening to gods of travel and exploration, while both have tremendous but less certain potential to cause huge hits to commerce.

I do acknowledge that they -could- be beneficial to commerce if handled correctly but that's an utter craps-shoot.

But the campaign has existed for much longer than the PCs, the setting has existed long enough that it would have self-optimized to some degree. Frankly as long as third or higher level spells have existed we would start to see that sort of societal optimization. Maybe. Both of these factors are variable enough that there really can be no certainty.Spell casting is -rare- by default. 3rd level and higher magic even more so and a not insignificant portion of the populace actively works against societies moving toward.

The problem is that the Gods are an active force but they tend to have divisive or confusing viewpoints, particularly in FR, but in most other settings as well, we have no way to know if they'd have a direct objection, since they're objections depend on the author or the DM at that time. On many a subject that is true enough. On these two particular issues, however, the logic is clear-cut and undeniable; any god will take action against a direct threat to their portfolio. Gods of agriculture will oppose the elimination of agriculture that limitless magically created food represents. Gods of travel and exploration will oppose the elimination of travel and exploration that instantaneous transportation represents.

Ergo the setting belongs to the DM and the God's could just as easily protect our non-magic city, there's no reason to suspect that certain deities wouldn't be supportive of that sort of thing. Kossuth for example, St. Cuthbert might believe that removing magic would remove temptation. So you could very easily have deities with reasons to support the city.

The gods work their will in the mortal world by giving magic to their most devout followers that have the wisdom to apply it as those gods wish. A place that rejects all magic rejects the gods by opposing their most favored mortal servants and the gods wisdom in granting those followers power.

Irrational hatred of arcanists or wielders of godly magic when the ruling class of your people are the other makes some sense and can actually make for functional and interesting settings within the campaign but rejection of both just can't work in 3.5.

AMFV

2013-12-10, 05:00 AM

The gods work their will in the mortal world by giving magic to their most devout followers that have the wisdom to apply it as those gods wish. A place that rejects all magic rejects the gods by opposing their most favored mortal servants and the gods wisdom in granting those followers power.

Irrational hatred of arcanists or wielders of godly magic when the ruling class of your people are the other makes some sense and can actually make for functional and interesting settings within the campaign but rejection of both just can't work in 3.5.

However this is an assumption based on the way God's word in a particular setting (Greyhawk) in this DM's setting it could be very different. In fact even across different published settings the influence of Gods shifts dramatically from the ridiculous and often stupid (FR) to absolutely very little (Eberron)

Since we are examining a specific construct in an unknown specific DM's setting it stands to reason that it wouldn't be a problem to have this be the case.

Well in a metropolis you could have up to four 18th level clerics. And assuming that's correct you'd 508 clerics of over 5th level, which would be 2% of the population in a metropolis. So even utilizing only three third level castings per day they could feed everyone, if they utilize more castings it would be much easier and you could definitely make up for the population difference if you have less higher level clerics.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-10, 05:07 AM

How the deuce did you come up with 508?

4 at 18
8 at 9
16 at 5 (if you round up)

That's only 28 by my count.

Out of 25000 people that's 0.112%

AMFV

2013-12-10, 05:28 AM

How the deuce did you come up with 508?

4 at 18
8 at 9
16 at 5 (if you round up)

That's only 28 by my count.

Out of 25000 people that's 0.112%

I was misreading the table, I assumed it was doubling at a two level interval not a halving interval. In any case we could still feed the entire population. That does significantly impact that reasoning, perhaps they should have used an example that was more logical which did not start at 5. However the clerics could still feed half the population pretty easily. You could theoretically use Stone to Flesh or Minor Creation to feed most of the rest.

Then you'd have a dominant city since it's entire population sans one small element could focus on other things than agriculture. However this is still not resolving the problem of undead creation, creating permanent workers. There is no reason for the poor to exist in D&D, or at least no real usefulness for them to the rich, this would create unimaginable economic turmoil. Which I think pretty much is my point. I'm not sure why you've focused on this food thing, when my point was that magic fundamentally shifts the world in unpredictable ways.

Additionally, you haven't addressed the issue that this is a specific example in a specific setting where we don't quite know how the God's interact with people, it could quite be possible that there is a God that doesn't grant spells and protects the city, gaining power from it's belief, we simply don't know, not knowing enough about the setting.

This thread was created by a player who wanted to punch holes in what he saw as DM fiating something into existence, well as far as campaign setting goes my argument is that is all things, anything that keeps the world at a medieval level is fiat in some respects. So that is the crux of the matter.

Although I do concede the food point, since apparently my math was wrong, but that's just the tip of the Iceberg, we have the salt scenario as you presented in the other thread, which would quickly devalue salt to nothing. We have cheap labor (undead) who can work 24/7 for no food all the time, without ever becoming unhappy or needing additional help, we have instant communication over distance, instant travel over distance, this is not even a modern world, this is in many respects far beyond even that.

Drachasor

2013-12-10, 05:32 AM

If you have level 9+ casters, the only hard part about feeding loads of people is vitamins and fiber.

Wall of Stone (and optionally stone shape) and Transmute Stone to Flesh creates PLENTY of meat. Very easy to get thousands of pounds of meat:

a 10th level caster can make about 2583lbs of meat per wall of stone
12th level; 4650lbs
16th level; 8266lbs
20th level; 12916lbs.
This is less if it is shaped into the body of a very large meaty creature (which by RAW will create a fresh corpse of that body when Flesh to Stone is used), but that's still a crap-top of meat.

And getting enough water is super-easy. A Decanter of Endless Water is just 9k gold (or 36 silver per person in a 25k city). This makes 432,000 gallons of water PER DAY. That's much more than we'd need in a modern city of 25k (about 80-100 gallons per day per person, or less than 250,000 gallons).

Hmm, this seems off-topic though.

Again, if this city doesn't have anything other people want and is too much trouble to bother with (easy enough) then it won't get attacked. So an out-of-the-way city with ballista and decently trained guards would fit the bill pretty well. Better if they have some anti-caster ability too. Even villains have goals, and usually it isn't to conquer some no-name hick town that hates casters and has no value.

AMFV

2013-12-10, 05:35 AM

If you have level 9+ casters, the only hard part about feeding loads of people is vitamins and fiber.

Wall of Stone (and optionally stone shape) and Transmute Stone to Flesh creates PLENTY of meat. Very easy to get thousands of pounds of meat:

a 10th level caster can make about 2583lbs of meat per wall of stone
12th level; 4650lbs
16th level; 8266lbs
20th level; 12916lbs.
This is less if it is shaped into the body of a very large meaty creature (which by RAW will create a fresh corpse of that body when Flesh to Stone is used), but that's still a crap-top of meat.

And getting enough water is super-easy. A Decanter of Endless Water is just 9k gold (or 36 silver per person in a 25k city). This makes 432,000 gallons of water PER DAY. That's much more than we'd need in a modern city of 25k (about 80-100 gallons per day per person, or less than 250,000 gallons).

Hmm, this seems off-topic though.

Again, if this city doesn't have anything other people want and is too much trouble to bother with (easy enough) then it won't get attacked. So an out-of-the-way city will ballista and decently trained guards would fit the bill pretty well. Better if they have some anti-caster ability too. Even villains have goals, and usually it isn't to conquer some no-name hick town that hates casters and has no value.

Particularly not with the players not present when they're being roleplayed by the DM.

Lanaya

2013-12-10, 05:55 AM

I'm curious as to why this offend a high level spell caster enough to actually become involved. Again you'll find that he gains absolutely nothing from doing it.

Why wouldn't a high level wizard wreck the city? What's the point of dedicating your entire life to acquiring ultimate arcane power and then not using it? I don't consider it all that realistic that the sort of person who would spend decades learning and perfecting the arts of magic in order to become the most powerful being in the world would, after attaining their supreme magical might, simply sit back and think "yep, I'm a powerful wizard alright". There'd be good ones who would use their power to save people, but there'd also be evil ones who would slaughter the common folk simply to prove that they can. Power corrupts, or at least it attracts the easily corrupted.

Drachasor

2013-12-10, 05:57 AM

Coidzor

2013-12-10, 05:59 AM

Although wights speak common, so what if the town diplomanced the wight created by the wizard into creating an army of wights to protect the city.

Ah, yes, brilliant. Now they're eaten by an army of wights and the even bigger army of wights goes on to enact their dream of extinguishing all humanoid life.

Why would a high level wizard seek this place out? The city has no magic items for him to take, he can create more gold than the city has, he can create a better army than the citizens of this city.

Souls, subjects for large-scale experimentation, and breeding stock for a core group of worshipers for ascension to godhood all come to mind off the cuff for exploiting a defenseless population center.

AMFV

2013-12-10, 06:06 AM

Why wouldn't a high level wizard wreck the city? What's the point of dedicating your entire life to acquiring ultimate arcane power and then not using it? I don't consider it all that realistic that the sort of person who would spend decades learning and perfecting the arts of magic in order to become the most powerful being in the world would, after attaining their supreme magical might, simply sit back and think "yep, I'm a powerful wizard alright". There'd be good ones who would use their power to save people, but there'd also be evil ones who would slaughter the common folk simply to prove that they can. Power corrupts, or at least it attracts the easily corrupted.

Because all of the high level casters are controlled by the DM, who clearly hasn't destroyed the city before the game. Maybe it just hasn't attracted ire of any particularly nasty wizards, I mean there's no magic items there and certainly not much that's valuable. So without a specific reason to want to destroy it it is unlikely that it has been, but such a thing could certainly be the case.

Perhaps the city is protected by an insane God, who knows, it could be any number of things, but we know that it has not been destroyed, so that just didn't happen. At least not in this setting.

Why wouldn't he? He has better things to do, since he's still trying to become the most powerful wizard in the world, obtain supreme magical might, etc. It's not like this hypothetical wizard is ruling the planet. And if it is about hurting people, well there are people to hurt all over. Probably people that wrong said evil wizard in the past or are in his way now.

It is easy enough to have a city like this where there is no powerful wizard that has a great need/desire to destroy it.

Particularly since high level wizards are extremely rare, and often very nasty and powerful enemies they have to ward against, high level characters simply don't often have time for pleasure excursions like burning down a random city, particularly if that might expose them to attack.

Coidzor

2013-12-10, 06:17 AM

Because all of the high level casters are controlled by the DM, who clearly hasn't destroyed the city before the game.

Kind of an odd line of thinking given the subject of the thread.

AMFV

2013-12-10, 06:20 AM

Kind of an odd line of thinking given the subject of the thread.

The subject of the thread is a single city example as presented in the OP, who is a player in a game. The city is created by the DM, and he was asking if it was reasonable to have such a city exist.

I would say that certainly it is not unreasonable to put that into a setting, particularly if you have some additional way to make it work. Furthermore, if we are discussing the city as a setting-building thing for a DM, then it is relevant to note that not all easy targets are instantly destroyed by roving cabals of insane evil mages. Again not an unreasonable thing to include in the discussion.

Not sure about the first one in the game I'm currently in. My current character is in the area thanks to a Gate spell going wonky and spitting him out at full speed. My guy asked about any local experts on teleportation to one of the guards, and was immediately growled at for mentioning magic as anything worthwhile. I'm thinking that any magic-users in the town are going to be the kind that don't like the officials.

To my knowledge, both kinds are hated in this city. We got a Paladin, and he's on watch also. My character just uses stuff that LOOKS like magic and he's liable to get chased out if he isn't careful.

From Post #7, where OP elaborates some on the actual discussion at hand.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-10, 06:42 AM

I was misreading the table, I assumed it was doubling at a two level interval not a halving interval. In any case we could still feed the entire population. That does significantly impact that reasoning, perhaps they should have used an example that was more logical which did not start at 5. However the clerics could still feed half the population pretty easily. You could theoretically use Stone to Flesh or Minor Creation to feed most of the rest. Stone to flesh is a 6th level spell on the sorc/wiz list. There're maybe 4 in a metropolis capable of casting it and wizards aren't exactly known for their philanthropic nature. Minor creation doesn't even matter since the food will disappear from people's stomachs as the spell's duration lapses.

Then you'd have a dominant city since it's entire population sans one small element could focus on other things than agriculture. However this is still not resolving the problem of undead creation, creating permanent workers. There is no reason for the poor to exist in D&D, or at least no real usefulness for them to the rich, this would create unimaginable economic turmoil. Which I think pretty much is my point. I'm not sure why you've focused on this food thing, when my point was that magic fundamentally shifts the world in unpredictable ways. You're making some assumptions in this that don't necessarily follow. First, that the utterly tiny magical community is not only united in purpose but also that they're all willing to devote resources to the betterment of the community. This is patently absurd. Second is that these self same people are willing to stoop to menial labor with a magical flair.

Undead creation is on the same level as food creation and there's a strict limit on how many can be controlled. I estimate less than 500 if you stick to human skeletons, not hardly enough to take over the labor for 25000 people and that's counting clerics, wizards, and sorcerers.

Additionally, you haven't addressed the issue that this is a specific example in a specific setting where we don't quite know how the God's interact with people, it could quite be possible that there is a God that doesn't grant spells and protects the city, gaining power from it's belief, we simply don't know, not knowing enough about the setting.

And -how- does he protect this city without magic wielding minions? By divine avatar? One of the most magical entities in the game short of actual gods, I might add. Magic is the life's blood of D&D campaign worlds. If you cut off the flow of blood to an area it dies.

This thread was created by a player who wanted to punch holes in what he saw as DM fiating something into existence, well as far as campaign setting goes my argument is that is all things, anything that keeps the world at a medieval level is fiat in some respects. So that is the crux of the matter. It's a question of believability and the ability of a person to suspend disbelief. While you're correct that a certain degree of fiat involved pretty much regardless of circumstance, the more believable that fiat is the more likely it is to be accepted.

Although I do concede the food point, since apparently my math was wrong, but that's just the tip of the Iceberg, we have the salt scenario as you presented in the other thread, which would quickly devalue salt to nothing. We have cheap labor (undead) who can work 24/7 for no food all the time, without ever becoming unhappy or needing additional help, we have instant communication over distance, instant travel over distance, this is not even a modern world, this is in many respects far beyond even that.

As I mentioned above an undead work force is also less feasible than it would first appear for much the same reason the food issue was. The same tiny magical population also offers some buffer against the salt issue as well though not enough to prevent short-term market crashes. One wizard does it, then another, then several more and suddenly the local market is flooded, the price drops in the toilet. Most of the local wizards are now set for a good while and don't bother to repeat the process for some time allowing the market to recover. This pattern may, in fact, account for salt's already low price. IRL salt was often worth its weight in gold. In D&D it's only worth a tenth of that. I doubt this was intentional but it works out nicely.

As I said, a lot of issues people have with magic in world building in D&D is partly a result of misunderstanding just how low the population density of magic-users is by default.

Tippyverse is -a- logical conclusion to the rules, not -the- logical conclusion.

Incorrect

2013-12-10, 06:50 AM

I imagine the city would be quite alright. It would obviously be protected by all the magical powers flocking to such a city. The devils, mindflayers, dobbelgangers, the evil mage vizier, the bodysnatchers, thieves guild, and the occasional epic wizards summer residence.

Most of the population might actually be highly magical, everyone putting on a careful charade to maintain the “illusion” of a non-magical town :smalltongue:
"Quick! Someone's comming, act martial!"

Brookshw

2013-12-10, 06:51 AM

Aside from a certain Led one, the main zeppelin that comes to mind was not exactly something to brag about.:smallwink:

I've been away from the discussion a bit, but I'd also like to advance the idea that a city like this could exist with a powerful monstrous, non-caster patron.

Could very well be interesting. Let's replace that zepplin with some griffins/hippogriffins/pegasi. Animal Husbandry, will you ever let me down? Also as a world building matter you could place the city as being built into the side of a mountain. Wouldn't help protect the lands but does remove/minimalize the threat posed to it via flying creatures.

You're making some assumptions in this that don't necessarily follow. First, that the utterly tiny magical community is not only united in purpose but also that they're all willing to devote resources to the betterment of the community. This is patently absurd.

Could you elaborate on why it's absurd that people help one another and why it requires unity as opposed to simply a few people wanting things to be better? To say it's absurd strikes me as odd considering RL.

"Quick! Someone's comming, act martial!"

ROFL! Thank you, that just made my morning :smallbiggrin:

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-10, 06:52 AM

AMFV

2013-12-10, 06:54 AM

And -how- does he protect this city without magic wielding minions? By divine avatar? One of the most magical entities in the game short of actual gods, I might add. Magic is the life's blood of D&D campaign worlds. If you cut off the flow of blood to an area it dies.

It's a question of believability and the ability of a person to suspend disbelief. While you're correct that a certain degree of fiat involved pretty much regardless of circumstance, the more believable that fiat is the more likely it is to be accepted.

Again we're assuming that the divine interaction follows standard Greyhawk rules, or FR rules, which are more restrictive, it's entirely possible to use a Divine Avatar in that respect, furthermore that's a fairly standard fantasy trope as well.

As I mentioned above an undead work force is also less feasible than it would first appear for much the same reason the food issue was. The same tiny magical population also offers some buffer against the salt issue as well though not enough to prevent short-term market crashes. One wizard does it, then another, then several more and suddenly the local market is flooded, the price drops in the toilet. Most of the local wizards are now set for a good while and don't bother to repeat the process for some time allowing the market to recover. This pattern may, in fact, account for salt's already low price. IRL salt was often worth its weight in gold. In D&D it's only worth a tenth of that. I doubt this was intentional but it works out nicely.

As I said, a lot of issues people have with magic in world building in D&D is partly a result of misunderstanding just how low the population density of magic-users is by default.

Tippyverse is -a- logical conclusion to the rules, not -the- logical conclusion.

Even still, a 1% population of magic users could wreak havoc on the system, yes? And once that happens the system collapses, since now all successful societies have to compete with a hyper magic one, four 18th level clerics per cities is enough to fundamentally rewrite the rules of how cities operate, simply by using their daily spell allotment, while feeding everybody through the use of spells may not be efficient it is realistic (with metamagic and reducers it may even be possible, for example DMM: Twin Spell, and DMM: Repeat spell could easily dramatically increase the numbers of people being fed).

In fact just as an exercise, a cleric with a bead of karma (+4 CL), a bard casting Hymnn of Praise (+2 CL), DMM: Twin Spell, and DMM: Repeat Spell could feed 288 people per casting, if he uses his entire bevy of spells under 6th level that is roughly 7000 people fed, 27,648 if you include all four clerics. As to why they would do that, well they have 7-9th level spells yet, and the lower level spells, if they're interested in the community this could be a daily task, and people can go without food for several days if there is an emergency. This sort of thing is about the most useful type of clerical work you could find, and is very reflected in real world religious orders.

Coidzor

2013-12-10, 07:20 AM

Could very well be interesting. Let's replace that zepplin with some griffins/hippogriffins/pegasi. Animal Husbandry, will you ever let me down? Also as a world building matter you could place the city as being built into the side of a mountain. Wouldn't help protect the lands but does remove/minimalize the threat posed to it via flying creatures.

Those beasts are inherently magical. It's in the name of their Type.

ROFL! Thank you, that just made my morning :smallbiggrin:

Seconded.

Is it just me or does that sound like the most awesome city in the world to adventure in?

Dungeons: The Dragoning, even. XD

Brookshw

2013-12-10, 07:23 AM

Those beasts are inherently magical. It's in the name of their Type.

Good point. AFB atm the moment. Giant Eagles?

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-10, 07:26 AM

Again we're assuming that the divine interaction follows standard Greyhawk rules, or FR rules, which are more restrictive, it's entirely possible to use a Divine Avatar in that respect, furthermore that's a fairly standard fantasy trope as well. Those are the only game rules governing gods in the system (and are only slightly different from one an other if at all) so anything else is fiat. Eberron is an explicit exemption per the text in its campaign manual.

Unless you're referring to how they interact with the world? Even then the default (greyhawk technically) is what one expects unless stated otherwise.

Even still, a 1% population of magic users could wreak havoc on the system, yes? And once that happens the system collapses, since now all successful societies have to compete with a hyper magic one, four 18th level clerics per cities is enough to fundamentally rewrite the rules of how cities operate, simply by using their daily spell allotment, while feeding everybody through the use of spells may not be efficient it is realistic (with metamagic and reducers it may even be possible, for example DMM: Twin Spell, and DMM: Repeat spell could easily dramatically increase the numbers of people being fed). It's not 1% though, it's 1/10 of 1%. Unless they all dedicate themselves entirely to this they barely make a supplement to the normal system. Such nationalist attitudes would be unusual amongst those who've dedicated themselves to higher powers that usually transcend political borders.

In fact just as an exercise, a cleric with a bead of karma (+4 CL), a bard casting Hymnn of Praise (+2 CL), DMM: Twin Spell, and DMM: Repeat Spell could feed 288 people per casting, if he uses his entire bevy of spells under 6th level that is roughly 7000 people fed, 27,648 if you include all four clerics. As to why they would do that, well they have 7-9th level spells yet, and the lower level spells, if they're interested in the community this could be a daily task, and people can go without food for several days if there is an emergency. This sort of thing is about the most useful type of clerical work you could find, and is very reflected in real world religious orders.

That's rather a higher level of optimization than one generally expects. As for the RL comparison, dragons don't try to cow cities IRL. Neither do the faithful of opposed churches intentionally undermine and counter real religious orders' works in holy war driven by and employing tangible creatures from the realms beyond the material plane. High level clerics that aren't on constant guard against the enemies of the faith tend to wind up in their graves long before they help any one.

And not to beat a dead horse here but why are these four definitely of the same sect of the same faith and automatically willing to engage this much of their personal power in such a mundane affair to the direct detriment of their ability to react to arising threats?

AMFV

2013-12-10, 07:32 AM

Those are the only game rules governing gods in the system (and are only slightly different from one an other if at all) so anything else is fiat. Eberron is an explicit exemption per the text in its campaign manual.

Unless you're referring to how they interact with the world? Even then the default (greyhawk technically) is what one expects unless stated otherwise.

I was referring to how they interact with the world. In this case, if I were building a setting and I introduced a magic free society, I would argue that it should be pretty okay, especially if it's small scale. Which is what I'm arguing holding the microscope to any aspect of D&D mostly results in a ridiculous level of crap. It's just a game, if you can't suspend disbelief on that one thing, then it's going to be a bumpy ride for you.

While I haven't built a setting like this, the OP's DM has, and that's probably why I think there isn't a strong case that such a thing should never exist in any 3.5 setting, which seems to be the crux of the argument against, that's bull****, sorry, but as far as story crafting goes that is complete horsehockey, if a player can suspend their disbelief about powerful wizards not ruling the world, they can maybe let one slip.

And not to beat a dead horse here but why are these four definitely of the same sect of the same faith and automatically willing to engage this much of their personal power in such a mundane affair to the direct detriment of their ability to react to arising threats?

Because food is a daily problem and rising threats is usually not. Furthermore people can go for a lengthy period of time unfed if there's a fundamental problem in the city.This is a minor allocation of daily resources, while some of the optimization is clearly out of hand he point is that it is certainly possible, and I would argue probable that this may eventually occur. And frankly with their entire bevy of 7th to 9th level spells unused, they're still pretty well equipped to deal with rising threats.

Furthermore why would somebody try to kill them if they're main goal is feeding people, in war it's certainly reasonable, but in a peaceful situation, probably not so much a reasonable assumption, again though 7-9th level spells are quite enough for self defense.

Coidzor

2013-12-10, 07:34 AM

Good point. AFB atm the moment. Giant Eagles?

Also Magical Beasts.

Dire Eagles, Dire Hawks(?), Rocs, Dragonhawks(Eberron), Dire Bats, and Desmodu Xing Bats are the options that immediately spring to mind Animal-wise.

Brookshw

2013-12-10, 07:58 AM

Also Magical Beasts.

Dire Eagles, Dire Hawks(?), Rocs, Dragonhawks(Eberron), Dire Bats, and Desmodu Xing Bats are the options that immediately spring to mind Animal-wise.

Good enough for me then (pterradactyles? Probably misspelled). As we learned from jurrasic park, life animal husbandry will find a way

TripleD

2013-12-10, 08:00 AM

There is one mechanic in 3.5 that can swing a battle and is completely non-magical, non-supernatural in nature: Luck.

Mechanically: imagine everyone in this city has taken as many of the "luck feats" as possible. They've maxed out dex and reflex saves in any mundane way possible.

Fluff wise: this is a city where everyone just happens to tie their shoes as arrows fly over head. Clerics of unnamed gods call down lightening which harmlessly veers off course into ugly weathervanes. Demi-liches leading armies bent on conquest show up at the gates, only to discover that an ancient red dragon has chosen this same day to sack it with her own forces (both of course turn on each other; devestating themselves and leaving the town untouched).

Magicians are not superstitious per se, but they are more prone to immediately leap to supernatural mechanics. Over years rumors have spread among the magic using community of a town which, though negative to "detect magic", nonetheless appeared to be under a powerful enchantment. Many have challenged it, all have failed. Over time they learned to simply avoid it.

Der_DWSage

2013-12-10, 08:36 AM

As many people have said:As screwed as the GM wants it to be.

More specifically, this is a city with very little in the way of defense. Mundane siege weapons and masterwork weapons simply can't compare to the tactical advantages provided by even low-level magic, and if they legitimately annoyed a high-level Wizard? One casting of Polymorph Any Object, and now the castle is made of lava. Or a black hole.

Frankly, it's not a question of IF the city will fall. It's a question of WHEN. It may not be during the course of your campaign, but if the city is legitimately magicless, then they'll slowly fade away into nothing. Or be collapsed in a wizard's singularity. One of the two.

Emperor Tippy

2013-12-10, 01:38 PM

Tippyverse is -a- logical conclusion to the rules, not -the- logical conclusion.

Considering that its design goal was to create a setting where the rules as written didn't allow the PC's to shatter the setting in an afternoon and yet still supported all levels and types of play styles, how anyone can think that it is *the* logical conclusion kinda stupefy's me.

Coidzor

2013-12-10, 02:58 PM

Considering that its design goal was to create a setting where the rules as written didn't allow the PC's to shatter the setting in an afternoon and yet still supported all levels and types of play styles, how anyone can think that it is *the* logical conclusion kinda stupefy's me.

I think part of it is because either other attempts to make other settings that logically follow from the rules are (largely) unknown/incomplete or haven't really been made.

Phelix-Mu

2013-12-10, 03:13 PM

I think part of it is because either other attempts to make other settings that logically follow from the rules are (largely) unknown/incomplete or haven't really been made.

And I think the reason why few have been made is that little does follow logically from the rules, because they aren't particularly coherent themselves.

In particular, I think there is an interesting dynamic at work when it comes to the evolution of the 3.5 ruleset that contrasts with the underlying assumption of the default setting. The rules themselves evolved in a manner more resembling organic growth, towards popular areas of demand, but only through lots of failed attempts at making bad better.

The setting, on the other hand, remained largely the same, despite the fact that the rules increasingly acknowledged that the setting itself was not well-thought out. Like the way that they attempted to help out mundanes from time to time (namely in ToB), but to little avail. This seems to me to indicate that they were starting to realize just how badly conceived a world with both high level barbarians and high level wizards being influential figures on the same scale was.

But, again, some of the starkness of this contrast owes to the existence of forums like this one, where people get together and apply a level of collective scrutiny, analysis, and optimization of the rules far beyond what WotC themselves, let alone most tables, would be capable of. Forums like this also follow an organic growth pattern, which further casts the static situation in the PHB in a rather moronic light.

ryu

2013-12-10, 04:07 PM

And I think the reason why few have been made is that little does follow logically from the rules, because they aren't particularly coherent themselves.

In particular, I think there is an interesting dynamic at work when it comes to the evolution of the 3.5 ruleset that contrasts with the underlying assumption of the default setting. The rules themselves evolved in a manner more resembling organic growth, towards popular areas of demand, but only through lots of failed attempts at making bad better.

The setting, on the other hand, remained largely the same, despite the fact that the rules increasingly acknowledged that the setting itself was not well-thought out. Like the way that they attempted to help out mundanes from time to time (namely in ToB), but to little avail. This seems to me to indicate that they were starting to realize just how badly conceived a world with both high level barbarians and high level wizards being influential figures on the same scale was.

But, again, some of the starkness of this contrast owes to the existence of forums like this one, where people get together and apply a level of collective scrutiny, analysis, and optimization of the rules far beyond what WotC themselves, let alone most tables, would be capable of. Forums like this also follow an organic growth pattern, which further casts the static situation in the PHB in a rather moronic light.

To be fair the playtesters weren't exactly trying that hard. Did you LOOK at how the druid decided to completely ignore class features? It was saaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

Phelix-Mu

2013-12-10, 05:18 PM

To be fair the playtesters weren't exactly trying that hard. Did you LOOK at how the druid decided to completely ignore class features? It was saaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

I agree that it was sad, but we have the advantage of hindsight and massive amounts of thought put into how to do things right. Doing things the first time (or the second or third) rarely comes out to be optimal when one is dealing with a large, complex system designed by multiple people. I think the goal of playtesting was probably to see if the game self-imploded and was at least fun. Not very systematic or rigorous (or even particularly professional), but, eh, well...I don't think those are terms that apply well to WotC in general (and you can probably sense my native bias right there).

FinnDarkblade

2013-12-10, 05:29 PM

I'd be more worried about pissing off the casters themselves. Have you ever heard of the Locate City Bomb?

ryu

2013-12-10, 05:30 PM

I agree that it was sad, but we have the advantage of hindsight and massive amounts of thought put into how to do things right. Doing things the first time (or the second or third) rarely comes out to be optimal when one is dealing with a large, complex system designed by multiple people. I think the goal of playtesting was probably to see if the game self-imploded and was at least fun. Not very systematic or rigorous (or even particularly professional), but, eh, well...I don't think those are terms that apply well to WotC in general (and you can probably sense my native bias right there).

I could accept sub optimal choices for spells, animal companions, and wildshapes. Not doing ANY of that in any basic depth at all though? What was even the point of testing that druid? The same thing could've been done by a warrior class for goodness sake...

Phelix-Mu

2013-12-10, 05:35 PM

I could accept sub optimal choices for spells, animal companions, and wildshapes. Not doing ANY of that in any basic depth at all though? What was even the point of testing that druid? The same thing could've been done by a warrior class for goodness sake...

I dunno, that all was definitely hard to explain. Play style? Maybe this player just liked solving puzzles.:smalltongue:

On the other hand, maybe the druid player was a bit of a savant. Knowing that the druid could ace anything with but an ounce of effort or use of class features, the player intentionally chose to scimitar-it-up in order to examine whether the class at its very worst would actually survive/contribute.

Again, not sure what the point of that experiment would be, but at least that logic at least begins to explain what is otherwise pretty inexplicable.

CombatOwl

2013-12-10, 05:47 PM

ryu

2013-12-10, 05:51 PM

I dunno, that all was definitely hard to explain. Play style? Maybe this player just liked solving puzzles.:smalltongue:

On the other hand, maybe the druid player was a bit of a savant. Knowing that the druid could ace anything with but an ounce of effort or use of class features, the player intentionally chose to scimitar-it-up in order to examine whether the class at its very worst would actually survive/contribute.

Again, not sure what the point of that experiment would be, but at least that logic at least begins to explain what is otherwise pretty inexplicable.

At the very least if they realize the power show it directly so that the people running the experiment come to understand what they're dealing with... Even if not aware of the full scope pick some options. I mean how could a person look at things like druid early level BFC spells and not even begin to notice some kind of potential?

paddyfool

2013-12-10, 06:01 PM

atomicwaffle

2013-12-10, 06:17 PM

homebrew a high-tech society. Guards have Kevlar, equipped with guns and stun batons. Tear gas, flash bangs. Advanced sewers, waste disposal, water purification, and modern medical facilities. You have horses, they have Harley Davidsons. Founded by a group of plane travelers FROM THE FUTURE using SCIENCE!

You can cast fireball. that's nice, they have aerosolized Botulism

ryu

2013-12-10, 06:20 PM

Brookshw

2013-12-10, 06:41 PM

It sounds from the description of the setting in question that magic, although it's "going around", is quite a new thing. Maybe new enough that some cities, built before magic happened to the setting, are still trying to shun it entirely?

They'd be fighting an uphill battle to say the least, but prejudice against the new and scary can last a longish time.

The impression I get is that the DM has created a campaign where the players are spearheading a "stop the magical invasion" group and planned an adventure where part of the challenge of defending the city while bringing them into the xcom fold is that the city diplomatically poses an additional challenge beyond "stop the invasion". Not bad really, allows for roleplay and combat challenges (or I could be completely wrong).

Personally I think the more interesting bit is how to create a city that doesn't allow magic while remains safe from the ravages of the standard d&d universe while making sense.

Phelix-Mu

2013-12-10, 06:51 PM

Personally I think the more interesting bit is how to create a city that doesn't allow magic while remains safe from the ravages of the standard d&d universe while making sense.

Most of the obvious answers have been given already, I'd wager. It's far from impossible; as DM, I wield a power that can defy both logic and believability if I wish it to. More pertinently, even strangeness not mechanically possible can "make sense."

1.) The ancestors of the residents were subject to some large-scale magical experiment. Now they are all mysteriously immune to electricity.

2.) The city is occupied by an elder storm elemental of great power and, let's say, some kind of class levels. He gets angry when powerful magic is used, and although he poses little threat to the residents, he throws major tantrums, breaks stuff and kills visitors. In short, very inconvenient.

See? That is not at all in keeping with RAW or how the game often works, but lo and behold, with enough DM skill/theatrics and some jiggery-pokery, I can probably pull it off, make it fun, and make it look good/be memorable.

Brookshw

2013-12-10, 07:17 PM

2.) The city is occupied by an elder storm elemental of great power and, let's say, some kind of class levels. He gets angry when powerful magic is used, and although he poses little threat to the residents, he throws major tantrums, breaks stuff and kills visitors. In short, very inconvenient.

Nifty! :smallbiggrin:

See? That is not at all in keeping with RAW or how the game often works, but lo and behold, with enough DM skill/theatrics and some jiggery-pokery, I can probably pull it off, make it fun, and make it look good/be memorable.

Well that's rather the thing. By RAW we're effectively dealing with Schrodinger's cat city by way of analogy. We can't really know what the threat is until it's realized or measure the cities chances of defending against it without knowing what those defenses are. We open box 1T) hey, great wyrm red dragon threat, open box 1D) huh, a bunch of level 1 warriors. Well they're totally screwed. Open box 2T) huh, an army of summoned creatures, open box 2D) oh, the city's in a dead magic area, summons go poof. There's no real way via RAW to determine anything regarding the situation as neither side has a quantifiable value to weigh. Either the DM is throwing whatever they want at it and it's exactly as screwed as s/he wants it to be or perhaps they're rolling on a random threat table, which again we can't predict due to there being no way to say what the outcome could be of the roll.

Eh, I'm just going to continue having fun considering what interesting things could be done with this from a world building perspective. Carry on :smallbiggrin:

Tysis

2013-12-10, 07:27 PM

Souls, subjects for large-scale experimentation, and breeding stock for a core group of worshipers for ascension to godhood all come to mind off the cuff for exploiting a defenseless population center.

If a high level wizard wanted those things why would he waste time gathering them himself, instead of using his near infinite funds to pay someone to deliver a few thousand slaves to a location of his choosing?

That time would be far better spent to further the research these souls or breeding stock are needed for.

ryu

2013-12-10, 08:00 PM

If a high level wizard wanted those things why would he waste time gathering them himself, instead of using his near infinite funds to pay someone to deliver a few thousand slaves to a location of his choosing?

That time would be far better spent to further the research these souls or breeding stock are needed for.

This wizard prefers to recycle of course. Why bother stretching his market of stock thin when he can get a full city of the little buggers for free? The wizard has unlimited time and unlimited money, and just walking up and taking what he wants is less work and time than tediously waiting for people to get his order filled.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-10, 09:15 PM

The impression I get is that the DM has created a campaign where the players are spearheading a "stop the magical invasion" group and planned an adventure where part of the challenge of defending the city while bringing them into the xcom fold is that the city diplomatically poses an additional challenge beyond "stop the invasion". Not bad really, allows for roleplay and combat challenges (or I could be completely wrong).

Personally I think the more interesting bit is how to create a city that doesn't allow magic while remains safe from the ravages of the standard d&d universe while making sense.

That's not too hard. If the city is in an out of the way valley with no high value resources covered in a dead magic zone and maintains an isolationist outlook then they should be okay for a good, long time as long as they don't antagonize any power groups. Wearing away a large DMZ takes way too long for a lone individual to bother with. They'd still be vulnerable to infiltration and mundane conquest by organizations interested in expanding their influence simply for the sake of expansion but unless they have some valuable resource in their valley most of the world would simply ignore them as long as they return the courtesy.

Eventually some pro magic group will decide to erode the DMZ and bring the gift of magic to "those backwater hicks" and there'll be precious little the city can do about it but they could last a while as long as they remain obscure.

My objection to the city described in the op is that it is anti magic. Antagonizing the most powerful groups of people in your reality will -not- end well. That and their lack of a DMZ to keep those groups at bay.

Endarire

2013-12-10, 09:23 PM

This question has inspired many interesting answers, but perhaps we're asking the wrong question here.

There's a hidden corollary question (or series of questions) that go into this talk about verisimilitude: "What is this game we're playing meant to be about?" If it's about overcoming the threat of the moment with the party's on-hand resources, that poses a different answer than trying to determine the mindset of a level X character with certain mental stats and other abilities.

In a game largely about killing foes ("monsters") and taking their stuff, to be better able to do this repeatedly as part of the main gameplay loop, setting details like the outlawing of magic have more than one approach. The simulation approach details largely why this thing exists in verisimilitude. The gamist approach sees this as an opportunity to challenge party member X in manner Y.

There's also the matter of who's in control. In D&D 1.x and 2.x, the GM had much more direct control over what happened. Empowering players and characters in 3.x allowed PCs and players to determine how their characters progressed. Suddenly saying, "Your stuff doesn't work anymore or is (effectively) banned in your current environment!" removes another very strong implicit assumption - that the party is meant to succeed.

In real life, a seed (say, an appleseed) has all the resources needed in it to succeed. This seed requires the appropriate external resources (water, sunlight, temperature, room, etc.) to succeed. Given the proper external resources, the seed will grow and flourish. A seed with stunted growth (or which never grows) despite seemingly receiving adequate external resources is considered defective and given an attitude between wonder and disdain.

Back in game terms, the GM may assume that by weakening the party (or forcing them to deal with situation X) then his desired result will flow. This is not guaranteed, so long as his players have free will. If there's no will, then it's not a game, but a linear story at best.

In my opinion, outlawing all magic in such a way as the OP described (and even heavily banning or curtailing it in a magic-reliant system such as D&D 3.5) is like, in a modern society, outlawing electricity and gasoline. You're asking to fail if you do.

Brookshw

2013-12-10, 09:46 PM

Eventually some pro magic group will decide to erode the DMZ and bring the gift of magic to "those backwater hicks" .

I laughed at this line, love it!

Tysis

2013-12-10, 10:37 PM

This wizard prefers to recycle of course. Why bother stretching his market of stock thin when he can get a full city of the little buggers for free? The wizard has unlimited time and unlimited money, and just walking up and taking what he wants is less work and time than tediously waiting for people to get his order filled.

He prefers to recycle yet he doesn't want to use his current market of stock instead preferring to bring in additional resources potentially for one time use?

Also I'm not sure how delegating a menial task to someone else so you can do something important or fun is more tedious than plane shifting and greater teleporting to this city and then trying to force the entire city to march to his stronghold on that plane potentially losing subjects along the way. If he has no such stronghold figuring out how to plane shift the entire city to an appropriate plane and figure out how to get them to his place of research.

But honestly why this city? A high op, high level caster, to say nothing of epic level wizards, can do this do pretty much any city on the material plane. The only place where this city might be any worse off than any other random city is against mid level casters.

As a side note, what if a city of mundanes used diplomacy and aid another to effectively enslave a group of casters?

ryu

2013-12-10, 10:45 PM

He prefers to recycle yet he doesn't want to use his current market of stock instead preferring to bring in additional resources potentially for one time use?

Also I'm not sure how delegating a menial task to someone else so you can do something important or fun is more tedious than plane shifting and greater teleporting to this city and then trying to force the entire city to march to his stronghold on that plane potentially losing subjects along the way. If he has no such stronghold figuring out how to plane shift the entire city to an appropriate plane and figure out how to get them to his place of research.

But honestly why this city? A high op, high level caster, to say nothing of epic level wizards, can do this do pretty much any city on the material plane. The only place where this city might be any worse off than any other random city is against mid level casters.

As a side note, what if a city of mundanes used diplomacy and aid another to effectively enslave a group of casters?

In that last case it's not a non-magic city. It's a fully magical city populated by hypocritical cowards. Further we've listed several strategies already which directly say no to diplomacy with stoppage due only to people not bringing it up past that point. Ice assassins, zombie hoards, contingent spells set to kill people who attempt the diplomacy skill, and an entire host of other things are all easily accomplished. At mid level zombie shenanigans are easiest, but a well made contruct or heavily enchanted animal swarm incapable of sentient thought would do just as well.

AMFV

2013-12-11, 12:02 AM

Eventually some pro magic group will decide to erode the DMZ and bring the gift of magic to "those backwater hicks" and there'll be precious little the city can do about it but they could last a while as long as they remain obscure.

That is true. Exactly the same way as we've forced higher technology on the Amish, the Mennonites, and various south pacific tribesmen. I mean it's totally worth it to create competitors out of people that otherwise can't do you any harm.

My objection to the city described in the op is that it is anti magic. Antagonizing the most powerful groups of people in your reality will -not- end well. That and their lack of a DMZ to keep those groups at bay.

Again why? Why would somebody become involved in something like this, they have no listed natural resources. It's not like there's much love lost between wizards, if you're a wizard and you stay in that ridiculous city, well that's on you. It's like trying to live among the Amish and use high technology. Which is a form of deliberate obtuseness.

Tysis

2013-12-11, 12:59 AM

In that last case it's not a non-magic city. It's a fully magical city populated by hypocritical cowards. Further we've listed several strategies already which directly say no to diplomacy with stoppage due only to people not bringing it up past that point. Ice assassins, zombie hoards, contingent spells set to kill people who attempt the diplomacy skill, and an entire host of other things are all easily accomplished. At mid level zombie shenanigans are easiest, but a well made construct or heavily enchanted animal swarm incapable of sentient thought would do just as well.

The thread is about a city that hates magic users, not a city without magic. Nothing says we hate your kind like enslavement.

And again if a caster can use ice assassins they have reached the power level of being able to do whatever they want so casters of that level are irrelevant because every city is equally screwed if they piss off a high level caster.

The city is also likely to have some high level martial characters capable of easily fending off any zombie hoards or constructs. These martial characters could also be decked out in gear made by the city's enslaved caster population.

Craft contingent spell is nice but what is the contingent spell? Mid-level casters don't have access mind blank which only prevents fanaticism not having to be helpful. Unless you have contingencies to silence or destroy everything within earshot every time someone tries to talk to you that's kind of a moot point.

ryu

2013-12-11, 01:04 AM

The thread is about a city that hates magic users, not a city without magic. Nothing says we hate your kind like enslavement.

And again if a caster can use ice assassins they have reached the power level of being able to do whatever they want so casters of that level are irrelevant because every city is equally screwed if they piss off a high level caster.

The city is also likely to have some high level martial characters capable of easily fending off any zombie hoards or constructs. These martial characters could also be decked out in gear made by the city's enslaved caster population.

Craft contingent spell is nice but what is the contingent spell? Mid-level casters don't have access mind blank which only prevents fanaticism not having to be helpful. Unless you have contingencies to silence or destroy everything within earshot every time someone tries to talk to you that's kind of a moot point.

Deliberately enslaving large numbers of casters to create a large hoard of them? You can't even begin to see why this would get you attention you aren't prepared to deal with? Really? My wizards have taken down entire SUBCULTURES of orcs just because they were getting to cozy near one of his favorite cities. I've taken down BBEGs who were less actively dangerous than this. Granted it was a mid level campaign, but the point stands. Your town just walked into stereotypical adventurer fodder status.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-11, 01:23 AM

That is true. Exactly the same way as we've forced higher technology on the Amish, the Mennonites, and various south pacific tribesmen. I mean it's totally worth it to create competitors out of people that otherwise can't do you any harm.Yeah, because our gods are so much more demanding of their followers than the ones in D&D. ...

Again why? Why would somebody become involved in something like this, they have no listed natural resources. It's not like there's much love lost between wizards, if you're a wizard and you stay in that ridiculous city, well that's on you. It's like trying to live among the Amish and use high technology. Which is a form of deliberate obtuseness.

Logic doesn't always follow when it comes to what offends people and while it's true there's not much love lost between most wizards, clerics of gods of magic can be quite united in purpose and can even get some of their wizard buddies in on the action.

AMFV

2013-12-11, 01:29 AM

Yeah, because our gods are so much more demanding of their followers than the ones in D&D. ...

Logic doesn't always follow when it comes to what offends people and while it's true there's not much love lost between most wizards, clerics of gods of magic can be quite united in purpose and can even get some of their wizard buddies in on the action.

But why? This isn't a given, why are you arguing that it is? Not all dieties want conquest, in fact many of them don't, furthermore we have an area that's largely a backwater (only accessible by a teleport malfunction) diety's servants have better more important things to deal with, like actual evil threats. This would be the equivalent of sending the Marines into West Virginia to respond to Hunting Violations.

Secondly, Gods of Magic aren't generally evangelical, and they tend to be rather high on self-sufficiency as a virtue. So they have no real reason to interfere, particularly in something that really doesn't concern them. Anymore than the Gods of Slavery tend to directly interfere when slavers are attacked.

Thirdly, this is a backwater, with no real danger to any caster, nobody goes there, generally. They trade a few homemade goods, like furniture, and people largely leave them alone, there's no reason why this could not be the case. And the fact that you are arguing that there are elements that should not be put into a setting, EVER, when they exist just fine in the real world is troubling at best.

There are dozens of places where certain pieces of technology are frowned on and not used, we generally don't force them to use technology, we don't force Christian Scientists to take blood transfusions. There is no reason to suspect that this would be any different, again if the Gods themselves don't have a real reason to intervene (they're not threatening their portfolio directly).

Lastly, Gods of Magic don't to my knowledge almost in any cases have war or conquest as part of their portfolio, so why are you arguing that they would be for that. It's not part of their portfolio, so in addition you are expecting them to take action that is infringing on another God's domain, which might have real consequences, all for some backwater nobody cares about.

Tysis

2013-12-11, 01:31 AM

Deliberately enslaving large numbers of casters to create a large hoard of them? You can't even begin to see why this would get you attention you aren't prepared to deal with? Really? My wizards have taken down entire SUBCULTURES of orcs just because they were getting to cozy near one of his favorite cities. I've taken down BBEGs who were less actively dangerous than this. Granted it was a mid level campaign, but the point stands. Your town just walked into stereotypical adventurer fodder status.

The town was already adventurer fodder since it was inexplicably needing to defend itself from high level casters when it had no magic and no resources, this way it at least has a chance.

Furthermore, if the only thing that can stop a high level caster is another high level caster then it stands to reason that high level casters would likely actively support this town that enslaves low and mid-level casters thereby preventing them from advancing. It's feasible that a particularly evil wizard from a council of high level wizards is secretly leading this city masquerading as a mundane aristocrat. I would agree with you that this would make it adventurer fodder, but mid and low level PC's don't have a chance of stopping them. If all else fails the evil wizard in charge releases his ice assassins then afterwards mindrapes the populace that saw the ice assassins into forgetting the whole incident.

AMFV

2013-12-11, 01:32 AM

The town was already adventurer fodder since it was inexplicably needing to defend itself from high level casters when it had no magic and no resources, this way it at least has a chance.

Furthermore, if the only thing that can stop a high level caster is another high level caster then it stands to reason that high level casters would likely actively support this town that enslaves low and mid-level casters thereby preventing them from advancing. It's feasible that a particularly evil wizard from a council of high level wizards is secretly leading this city masquerading as a mundane aristocrat. I would agree with you that this would make it adventurer fodder, but mid and low level PC's don't have a chance of stopping them. If all else fails the evil wizard in charge releases his ice assassins then afterwards mindrapes the populace that saw the ice assassins into forgetting the whole incident.

I would say that slavery is unlikely here, given that there are few ways sans using magic they could keep a high level caster enslaved. I mean they could use Psionics, but that's kind of outside of the point of this particular argument.

ryu

2013-12-11, 02:17 AM

I would say that slavery is unlikely here, given that there are few ways sans using magic they could keep a high level caster enslaved. I mean they could use Psionics, but that's kind of outside of the point of this particular argument.

He's arguing diplomacy to which the easiest reply is hordes upon hordes of incorporeal undead created at mid levels. No wizards? No magic weapons? Only diplomacy that doesn't work on the literally mindless? No defense.

AMFV

2013-12-11, 02:25 AM

He's arguing diplomacy to which the easiest reply is hordes upon hordes of incorporeal undead created at mid levels. No wizards? No magic weapons? Only diplomacy that doesn't work on the literally mindless? No defense.

I would suggest that's probably a poor strategy, since nomagicville is best served by being a backwater everybody ignores. Attracting attention to themselves is going to cause all kinds of problems, and bring out enemies that can crush their city. The best method is simply to be not worth anyone's time.

Vizzerdrix

2013-12-11, 02:31 AM

He's arguing diplomacy to which the easiest reply is hordes upon hordes of incorporeal undead created at mid levels. No wizards? No magic weapons? Only diplomacy that doesn't work on the literally mindless? No defense.

But they can defend themselves. Several mundane substances can effect ghostly attackers, and any Lantan (gnome) Artificer (a PrC from Faerun) can build devices that would devastate them as well.

AMFV

2013-12-11, 02:34 AM

But they can defend themselves. Several mundane substances can effect ghostly attackers, and any Lantan (gnome) Artificer (a PrC from Faerun) can build devices that would devastate them as well.

Again, then we're bringing a non-magical city into direct conflict with casters, that stretches my suspension of disbelief and I'm the one that's been arguing the city is fine. Casters win, period, in D&D. Especially in conflict with mundanes. However there is no reason why they would interfere with a city that's below their interest and out of the way, that's the best bet for survival, not direct conflict or attempting to build direct countermeasures.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-11, 03:46 AM

But why? This isn't a given, why are you arguing that it is? Not all dieties want conquest, in fact many of them don't, furthermore we have an area that's largely a backwater (only accessible by a teleport malfunction) diety's servants have better more important things to deal with, like actual evil threats. This would be the equivalent of sending the Marines into West Virginia to respond to Hunting Violations. Who said it's a backwater? He said he got there by a misfired gate, meaning he came from off-world, and the world is so saturated with magic that a multinational organization is forming to try and stem the tide of chaos. We have -no- information about the city's location or resources. As for your marines vs west virginia comparison, if west virginia was under the control of a militantly anti-federal organization then the marines, or at least the national guard, would indeed be sent it.

Secondly, Gods of Magic aren't generally evangelical, and they tend to be rather high on self-sufficiency as a virtue. So they have no real reason to interfere, particularly in something that really doesn't concern them. Anymore than the Gods of Slavery tend to directly interfere when slavers are attacked.The gods won't interfere directly, they basically never do except in unusual circumstances. The gods of magic -do- however often have the spread of magic as part dogma. All it takes is one militant sect deciding to take that particular bit of dogma as the most important one. It's not a certainty but it is a likely eventuality.

Thirdly, this is a backwater, with no real danger to any caster, nobody goes there, generally. They trade a few homemade goods, like furniture, and people largely leave them alone, there's no reason why this could not be the case. And the fact that you are arguing that there are elements that should not be put into a setting, EVER, when they exist just fine in the real world is troubling at best. This is pure conjecture. If it's true then they're still doomed to damnation by the forces of Baator since they don't have the massive DMZ to protect them from supernatural creatures. This is dramatically more likely than militant mages to the point of being a near certainty if the city exists long enough. Nevermind the possibility of a dragon taking up residence nearby and claiming the city as part of its territory which will lead to enough sorcerers in the area to make keeping magic out more unfeasible than it already is or the possibility of any of a number of other supernatural creatures running basically unopposed in the region.

There are dozens of places where certain pieces of technology are frowned on and not used, we generally don't force them to use technology, we don't force Christian Scientists to take blood transfusions. There is no reason to suspect that this would be any different, again if the Gods themselves don't have a real reason to intervene (they're not threatening their portfolio directly). That wasn't always the case though and neither are any of those technologies nearly as universal as magic is in a D&D setting. For most of human history right up until the present various groups have pushed their ideas on other groups quite forcibly. It's no longer done by the majority but it does still happen. There's also that little matter of -every- religion in D&D being represented by magic wielding priests.

Lastly, Gods of Magic don't to my knowledge almost in any cases have war or conquest as part of their portfolio, so why are you arguing that they would be for that. It's not part of their portfolio, so in addition you are expecting them to take action that is infringing on another God's domain, which might have real consequences, all for some backwater nobody cares about.A god that has no magic wielding followers is too weak to be of any consequence in the politics of the outer planes. The entirety of the consequences you mentioned would be comprised of some minor PR hiccups -if- you could find anyone, much less any group of significant size, that would sympathize with such a backwards thinking group in a world where there are very real threats at every turn to garner greater concern.

Also, I found two deities with both war and magic in their portfolios. Odin and the FR version of Correlon Larethian. Also, in addition to magic being omnipresent in the campaign world, magic is an extremely common domain. A surprising number of gods have it when you actually look through them.

Unrelated note: has anybody noticed just how common the war domain is? If all the gods went to a dinner party you couldn't spit without hitting at least two war gods.

Edit: oh and somebody mentioned the gnome artificer; gotta have at least one level in a casting class to get into the class. Requires ranks in craft alchemy and the ability to cast 1st level illusions as well as to be a member of or on very good terms with a race with SLA's and a predisposition toward becoming illusionists (be a gnome or a 3rd level stone blessed).

AMFV

2013-12-11, 04:24 AM

A god that has no magic wielding followers is too weak to be of any consequence in the politics of the outer planes. The entirety of the consequences you mentioned would be comprised of some minor PR hiccups -if- you could find anyone, much less any group of significant size, that would sympathize with such a backwards thinking group in a world where there are very real threats at every turn to garner greater concern.

Gods derive power from worship, not from magic-wielding worship, so a God with followers that are non-magical still has power, and therefore a say in outer planes politics, since they can parlay against the other Gods even if they themselves like a way to directly interfere.

Well real threats don't always happen. Tacoma and Seattle both exist, despite Mount Rainier being one of the most deadly and powerful volcanoes in that region (in fact its pretty potent compared to anywhere in the world). Naples exists despite Vesuvius existing. San Francisco hasn't been destroyed by earthquakes (though they now take significant precautions), New York hasn't been destroyed by floods, and San Diego hasn't been destroyed by Tsunami. Yes, given an infinite time period that will happen, but it hasn't. As such there's no reason to suspect that backwater magicless town would be destroyed by demons.

I wasn't assuming it was a backwater, I was suggesting that for it to succeed as a magicless city it would have to be relatively small on the global scale, so as not to attract the kind of trouble you suggest it might.

Also, I found two deities with both war and magic in their portfolios. Odin and the FR version of Correlon Larethian. Also, in addition to magic being omnipresent in the campaign world, magic is an extremely common domain. A surprising number of gods have it when you actually look through them.

We've established that for this discussion we are using Greyhawk standard, yes? Then Odin and FR's version of Corellon Latherian are both off the table. Meaning no war gods of magic. Furthermore Correlon would likely not be interested in what a human city does, regardless of it's treatment of magic users, and outside of Fearun magic doesn't get into his portfolio.

Odin might be interested, but as to whether conquest would be in the cards, would depend entirely on the circumstances of the city, really would it be worth sending high level clerics to protect a few low level spell casters. In fact, Odin doesn't have conquest or tyranny in his portfolio, so he might not be so interested in conquering and running a city.

So outside of two setting specific deities there is no reason for any of the magic Gods to directly interfere, and if they did it would likely involve trickery or subterfuge (much more common among the magicy gods). Even Odin gets the Trickery Domain and is likely to use that rather than go into overt warfare for little reason.

So if we're not in someplace with the Asgardian Pantheon, or Forgetten Realms we're fine... And in Forgotten Realms the city would be screwed in many more ways, since FR is pretty harsh on those who reject the Gods.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-11, 05:03 AM

Gods derive power from worship, not from magic-wielding worship, so a God with followers that are non-magical still has power, and therefore a say in outer planes politics, since they can parlay against the other Gods even if they themselves like a way to directly interfere. Follow that line of thought a bit further. Gods derive power from worshipers. Worshipers choose their god in part by what they offer their followers. A god with no clerics, adepts, or other divine caster representatives offers -nothing- to his mortal worshipers. They get no protection from any supernatural threats at all. He offers little reason to even consider him as a patron at all. As a direct consequence his power is miniscule or he may even lose power altogether and become one of those hulking masses of inert stone floating through the astral. Having to beg the other gods to protect his worshipers is also problematic because he has no leverage to weigh against such requests. He's stuck with whatever the more benevolent deities he petitions are willing to give him.

As I said, he's a nobody with no pull and no threat to anyone except his own worshipers and an indirect one even to them.

Well real threats don't always happen. Tacoma and Seattle both exist, despite Mount Rainier being one of the most deadly and powerful volcanoes in that region (in fact its pretty potent compared to anywhere in the world). Naples exists despite Vesuvius existing. San Francisco hasn't been destroyed by earthquakes (though they now take significant precautions), New York hasn't been destroyed by floods, and San Diego hasn't been destroyed by Tsunami. Yes, given an infinite time period that will happen, but it hasn't. As such there's no reason to suspect that backwater magicless town would be destroyed by demons.First, Devils not demons. They're dramatically different beasts with a vested interest in seeking out and corrupting mortals. They'd only choose open conquest if it was more efficient than infiltration and puppeteering the existing regime. (Sorry, pet peeve.)

Secondly, only -some- supernatural creatures can be likened to natural disasters that way. Civilized creatures that hear about a near defenseless community full of opportunity for whatever havoc they tend to wreak will seek it out to take those opportunities. Notice that there are very few large settlements along contested borders.

I wasn't assuming it was a backwater, I was suggesting that for it to succeed as a magicless city it would have to be relatively small on the global scale, so as not to attract the kind of trouble you suggest it might. On this, at least, we agree.

We've established that for this discussion we are using Greyhawk standard, yes? Then Odin and FR's version of Corellon Latherian are both off the table. Meaning no war gods of magic. Furthermore Correlon would likely not be interested in what a human city does, regardless of it's treatment of magic users, and outside of Fearun magic doesn't get into his portfolio.

Odin might be interested, but as to whether conquest would be in the cards, would depend entirely on the circumstances of the city, really would it be worth sending high level clerics to protect a few low level spell casters. In fact, Odin doesn't have conquest or tyranny in his portfolio, so he might not be so interested in conquering and running a city.

So outside of two setting specific deities there is no reason for any of the magic Gods to directly interfere, and if they did it would likely involve trickery or subterfuge (much more common among the magicy gods). Even Odin gets the Trickery Domain and is likely to use that rather than go into overt warfare for little reason.

So if we're not in someplace with the Asgardian Pantheon, or Forgetten Realms we're fine... And in Forgotten Realms the city would be screwed in many more ways, since FR is pretty harsh on those who reject the Gods.

Actually I was only saying that for gods to be considered (and they really must) we should examine them as they exist within the games rules. Those rules are outlined in deities and demigods and are only slightly different in faiths and pantheons. The gods would be a non-issue for this city on eberron and of absolutely paramount concern on Krynn (the world of dragonlance). I only presume greyhawk because it's the default setting unless otherwise specified.

AMFV

2013-12-11, 05:14 AM

Follow that line of thought a bit further. Gods derive power from worshipers. Worshipers choose their god in part by what they offer their followers. A god with no clerics, adepts, or other divine caster representatives offers -nothing- to his mortal worshipers. They get no protection from any supernatural threats at all. He offers little reason to even consider him as a patron at all. As a direct consequence his power is miniscule or he may even lose power altogether and become one of those hulking masses of inert stone floating through the astral. Having to beg the other gods to protect his worshipers is also problematic because he has no leverage to weigh against such requests. He's stuck with whatever the more benevolent deities he petitions are willing to give him.

However, we find people who are religious in the modern world, without direct divine intervention. I am one of those people, so the idea that having no direct intervention as a ceasing point is partially irrelevant.

The God might be able to defend his followers with the weather (a weather god) as was already pointed out, he might be able to defend his followers by obscuring their whereabouts (a God of information), or by disguising their importance (a God of Trickery). There are other ways, more subtle ways than a cleric that Gods can be involved in the world.

Particularly in Greyhawk, Wee Jas in fact destroyed all of Suel, so if Greyhawk is our standard setting the direct divine intervention without clerics is certainly a reasonable assumption.

As I said, he's a nobody with no pull and no threat to anyone except his own worshipers and an indirect one even to them.

Unless it's somebody like Wee Jas, who could destroy an entire Civilization because they're pissy about something, without any clerical assistance.

First, Devils not demons. They're dramatically different beasts with a vested interest in seeking out and corrupting mortals. They'd only choose open conquest if it was more efficient than infiltration and puppeteering the existing regime. (Sorry, pet peeve.)

Secondly, only -some- supernatural creatures can be likened to natural disasters that way. Civilized creatures that hear about a near defenseless community full of opportunity for whatever havoc they tend to wreak will seek it out to take those opportunities. Notice that there are very few large settlements along contested borders.

So they're not near a contested border, they're a backwater, I used demons as the example because they're more likely to randomly destroy a city for no reason. What interest does a Devil have with this city, they're all weak (non-magic users) they have no reasons, there aren't infinite number of devils, and if they waste time on something stupid and pointless for them they get destroyed.

So Devils would not likely become involved, Demons probably wouldn't although Demonic involvement is significantly more probable. Given that the city's destruction would be motivation enough for them.

Actually I was only saying that for gods to be considered (and they really must) we should examine them as they exist within the games rules. Those rules are outlined in deities and demigods and are only slightly different in faiths and pantheons. The gods would be a non-issue for this city on eberron and of absolutely paramount concern on Krynn (the world of dragonlance). I only presume greyhawk because it's the default setting unless otherwise specified.

And in Greyhawk Deities can directly interfere (see Wee Jas above), there are no deities that are associated with War and Magic. So in Greyhawk, which is the assumed standard, such a city could exist, without any probably of divine intervention, and possibly with divine protection.

Faiths and Pantheons one must remember deals with a very specific divine situation, FR is completely different from standard D&D in how it handles deities and this is an important thing to recall. Greyhawk Gazetteer would be the source for how Greyhawk handles deities, that and complete divine. However they can directly involve themselves so the city could have a protector.

Furthermore their magic Gods are by and large Neutral, so the city would have very little reason to spark their ire, outside of simply not worshiping them, which is less a problem for these deities, given that they already have the worshipers they want, and they're not interested in conversion or conquest.

Vizzerdrix

2013-12-11, 05:45 AM

So if we're not in someplace with the Asgardian Pantheon, or Forgetten Realms we're fine... And in Forgotten Realms the city would be screwed in many more ways, since FR is pretty harsh on those who reject the Gods.

In Forgotten Realms, would not such a city fall under Gond's protection?

AMFV

2013-12-11, 05:47 AM

In Forgotten Realms, would not such a city fall under Gond's protection?

Not unless they were craftsman, which isn't necessarily the case. Any case they would oppose his clerics too, and since in FR the God's can't directly intervene Gond would have no way to protect the city, short of conquering it and forcing them to accept his clerics.

Edit: Which doesn't fit his portfolio.

The Insanity

2013-12-11, 06:00 AM

What interest does a Devil have with this city, they're all weak (non-magic users) they have no reasons, there aren't infinite number of devils, and if they waste time on something stupid and pointless for them they get destroyed.
Devils gather souls. A whole city with no magic? Easy pickings, 'cause no Clerics or Paladins to oppose them, no magic to fight them or even discover their presence in the city.

AMFV

2013-12-11, 06:13 AM

Devils gather souls. A whole city with no magic? Easy pickings, 'cause no Clerics or Paladins to oppose them, no magic to fight them or even discover their presence in the city.

Devils prefer powerful souls... and the souls of many commoners isn't really worth their time and effort. It's why they tempt kings and the like but rarely farmers. Frankly if Devil's were going after commoner souls they could probably get away with that almost anywhere.

The Insanity

2013-12-11, 06:22 AM

They want any souls. Commoner souls will simply be gathered by lesser devils.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-11, 06:23 AM

However, we find people who are religious in the modern world, without direct divine intervention. I am one of those people, so the idea that having no direct intervention as a ceasing point is partially irrelevant.There's one rather tremendous difference between them and us though. In the real world it doesn't matter what religion you pick, your god doesn't act overtly or give his worshipers special powers (to the best of my knowledge). In D&D however, a god who grants no worshiper power is an utter anomaly. Other gods have mortal representatives that act in those gods names with divinely gifted power in the interests of their laymen followers. They keep the undead at bay, they protect the people from pestilence, they heal the wounded and feed those that can't feed themselves (sometimes), and they commune directly with their gods or at least their immediate underlings from the outside when guidance is needed in times of turmoil. The influence of divine magic on society is enormously disproportionate with the number of people that can actually wield it and through that influence the gods garner the favor of the people across numerous settlements and even nations. He also, per deities and demigods, extends the reach of his senses and in turn his ability to actually choose the best course of action to further his and his worshipers interests.

The God might be able to defend his followers with the weather (a weather god) as was already pointed out, he might be able to defend his followers by obscuring their whereabouts (a God of information), or by disguising their importance (a God of Trickery). There are other ways, more subtle ways than a cleric that Gods can be involved in the world.Subtle, yes; effective, not so much. A god's ability to act directly is limited by his salient divine abilities and his proximity to whatever he needs to act on. Proximity isn't -too- hard since any deity of rank 1 or higher can be anywhere in the world in six seconds but he can't be everywhere at once. They also don't get such direct control over what's actually in their portfolios. It's more influence based on their ability to apply those divine powers.

Particularly in Greyhawk, Wee Jas in fact destroyed all of Suel, so if Greyhawk is our standard setting the direct divine intervention without clerics is certainly a reasonable assumption. Destruction is immensely easier than defense and being a highly magical people they were largely under here portfolio and thus within her right to act upon anyway.

Unless it's somebody like Wee Jas, who could destroy an entire Civilization because they're pissy about something, without any clerical assistance. Even in that case it's not something that gods do with any measure of frequency. To the point of this theoretical god though, his extremely limited power and influence compared to other gods leaves him very much in the lurch if things start to get away from him. Basically his only option is to setup his godly realm in the city itself and act as a god-king and he'd have to act near constantly to keep the wolves at bay.

So they're not near a contested border, they're a backwater, I used demons as the example because they're more likely to randomly destroy a city for no reason. What interest does a Devil have with this city, they're all weak (non-magic users) they have no reasons, there aren't infinite number of devils, and if they waste time on something stupid and pointless for them they get destroyed. The limited reach of civilization beyond city borders puts -all- settlements on contested borders. The enemy nation is the wilds between them.

As for what a devil would want with this city, he wants the whole damn thing. He wants to influence the community to become lawful evil and to bring up its young to be lawful evil so that when the people of that city die and their damned souls are deposited on the shelves of despond he'll get the credit and gain greater rank in the infernal machine. Why? Because that's what devils do. It's how they derive their divine power. This city in particular is low-hanging fruit. No clerics or wizards to pierce their disguises, no defense against their spell like and supernatural abilities, and the god-king can't do a damn thing except warn his people against being deceived and corrupted because devils are protected from being directly smote for corrupting mortals by the pact primeval that all the gods of law signed.

And in Greyhawk Deities can directly interfere (see Wee Jas above), there are no deities that are associated with War and Magic. So in Greyhawk, which is the assumed standard, such a city could exist, without any probably of divine intervention, and possibly with divine protection. I never said they couldn't act directly, only that it's extremely uncommon. I also never said such a city couldn't exist, just that it had a much shorter half-life than most other civilizations in the setting.

Faiths and Pantheons one must remember deals with a very specific divine situation, FR is completely different from standard D&D in how it handles deities and this is an important thing to recall. Greyhawk Gazetteer would be the source for how Greyhawk handles deities, that and complete divine. However they can directly involve themselves so the city could have a protector. Umm... no. The only major difference between greyhawk and abier-toril's divine politics is that the gods of FR have a higher power to answer to and the gods of greyhawk only have one another to police their actions.

Furthermore their magic Gods are by and large Neutral, so the city would have very little reason to spark their ire, outside of simply not worshiping them, which is less a problem for these deities, given that they already have the worshipers they want, and they're not interested in conversion or conquest.Gods with the magic domain pretty much run the gamut for moral and ethical alignment with maybe a touch of a leaning toward law. The gods for whom magic is absolutely central such as Boccob, Azuth, or Mystra tend towards true neutral but they represent only a fraction of the set that is gods of magic. Wee Jas is LN, Correlon is CG, and so on.

AMFV

2013-12-11, 06:30 AM

There's one rather tremendous difference between them and us though. In the real world it doesn't matter what religion you pick, your god doesn't act overtly or give his worshipers special powers (to the best of my knowledge). In D&D however, a god who grants no worshiper power is an utter anomaly. Other gods have mortal representatives that act in those gods names with divinely gifted power in the interests of their laymen followers. They keep the undead at bay, they protect the people from pestilence, they heal the wounded and feed those that can't feed themselves (sometimes), and they commune directly with their gods or at least their immediate underlings from the outside when guidance is needed in times of turmoil. The influence of divine magic on society is enormously disproportionate with the number of people that can actually wield it and through that influence the gods garner the favor of the people across numerous settlements and even nations. He also, per deities and demigods, extends the reach of his senses and in turn his ability to actually choose the best course of action to further his and his worshipers interests.

Subtle, yes; effective, not so much. A god's ability to act directly is limited by his salient divine abilities and his proximity to whatever he needs to act on. Proximity isn't -too- hard since any deity of rank 1 or higher can be anywhere in the world in six seconds but he can't be everywhere at once. They also don't get such direct control over what's actually in their portfolios. It's more influence based on their ability to apply those divine powers.

Destruction is immensely easier than defense and being a highly magical people they were largely under here portfolio and thus within her right to act upon anyway.

Destruction is not necessarily easier than defense, and if defense is in that particular God's portfolio I can see no reason why he or she couldn't act in the city's defense.

Even in that case it's not something that gods do with any measure of frequency. To the point of this theoretical god though his extremely limited power and influence compared to other gods leaves him very much in the lurch if things start to get away from him. Basically his only option is to setup his godly realm in the city itself and act as a god-king and he'd have to act near constantly to keep the wolves at bay.

Depending on what you define as near constantly that's possibly true, although if the city is far enough removed from world affairs that may not be.

The limited reach of civilization beyond city borders puts -all- settlements on contested borders. The enemy nation is the wilds between them.

In Greyhawk, civilization is pretty omnipresent, we don't have massive wilderness. Certainly not in Eberron, or FR, or Dragonlance. While there are some wilderness areas, it's not the majority of the world.

As for what a devil would want with this city, he wants the whole damn thing. He wants to influence the community to become lawful evil and to bring up its young to be lawful evil so that when the people of that city die and their damned souls are deposited on the shelves of despond he'll get the credit and gain greater rank in the infernal machine. Why? Because that's what devils do. It's how they derive their divine power. This city in particular is low-hanging fruit. No clerics or wizards to pierce their disguises, no defense against their spell like and supernatural abilities, and the god-king can't do a damn thing except warn his people against being deceived and corrupted because devils are protected from being directly smote for corrupting mortals by the pact primeval that all the gods of law signed.

It still seems like a waste of time to try to gather all those weak souls, but that might just be me, also Infernal politics could interfere, but when the city finally falls this could certainly be the mechanism by which it falls.

I never said they couldn't act directly, only that it's extremely uncommon. I also never said such a city couldn't exist, just that it had a much shorter half-life than most other civilizations in the setting.[/Quote]

Then we agree, that's been what I've been arguing pretty much the whole time, or at least that they fundamentally can exist. While the city might be doomed eventually, putting it in the setting isn't a major issue.

Umm... no. The only major difference between greyhawk and abier-toril's divine politics is that the gods of FR have a higher power to answer to and the gods of greyhawk only have one another to police their actions.
.

Even Ao had to give powers to a Paladin to interact with the world directly during the Time of Troubles, FR is kind of inconsistent in this regard though. While Greyhawk has less material to be inconsistent.

In any case since we've both agreed that the city could exist, despite potential significant problems down the road, I think I'm going to step down, or at least admit that I'm now at, I think the same point as you are, therefore arguing more seems kind of like it would be meaningless pedantry.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-11, 06:49 AM

Destruction is not necessarily easier than defense, and if defense is in that particular God's portfolio I can see no reason why he or she couldn't act in the city's defense.I honestly don't know how to respond to the contention that defense is as easy or easier than destruction. I certainly expect he would act in defense of his pet city, I just don't expect he could do much else and he'd be fighting an uphill battle once the baatezu come knocking.

Depending on what you define as near constantly that's possibly true, although if the city is far enough removed from world affairs that may not be. With all the threats to civilization in the world and him unwilling to delegate the city would have to be isolated geographically and politically from -everything- for him to get much peace.

In Greyhawk, civilization is pretty omnipresent, we don't have massive wilderness. Certainly not in Eberron, or FR, or Dragonlance. While there are some wilderness areas, it's not the majority of the world. I haven't seen any maps of greyhawk recently but there's a -lot- of wilderness between most settlements on the maps of the other three. Heck, even in modern industrialized nations most smaller settlements have at least several miles between themselves and anything else of note, though the cities tend to have conglomerated into rather massive stretches of steel and concrete.

It still seems like a waste of time to try to gather all those weak souls, but that might just be me, also Infernal politics could interfere, but when the city finally falls this could certainly be the mechanism by which it falls. That's just it. These souls aren't any weaker than they are anywhere else. Character level is the major factor in a soul's value, not the personal or political power that soul wielded as a mortal.

Then we agree, that's been what I've been arguing pretty much the whole time, or at least that they fundamentally can exist. While the city might be doomed eventually, putting it in the setting isn't a major issue. The question posed by the OP was how "screwed are they," not "could they exist?" The answer, IMO, is "very."

Even Ao had to give powers to a Paladin to interact with the world directly during the Time of Troubles, FR is kind of inconsistent in this regard though. While Greyhawk has less material to be inconsistent. That was Torm, wasn't it? In any case the difference was more a difference in politics than in mechanics.

In any case since we've both agreed that the city could exist, despite potential significant problems down the road, I think I'm going to step down, or at least admit that I'm now at, I think the same point as you are, therefore arguing more seems kind of like it would be meaningless pedantry. Yeah, we're pretty close I think. Ya don't see that often on the internet, eh?

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 07:05 AM

The question posed by the OP was how "screwed are they," not "could they exist?" The answer, IMO, is "very."

The answer is "it depends." We don't even know this place is on the same plane/planet as the OP was on originally. That can change a ton of factors that we have no knowledge of.

And I think you greatly discount the fact that it costs resources to take over any place. It costs more if you intend to leave people alive. Everyone has limited resources, and has to allocate them wisely.

Just assuming there's someone out there that knows about them, hates them enough to get them, and that no one else will care or do anything are pretty big assumptions. Mr. Super Evil Wizard attacks this place, then Mr. Good Wizard (arch enemy) will stop him on principle. Again, assuming this place is worth it, known about, etc.

Also assumes they have no ways to deal with magic in any way shape or form. While they can't completely counter a high level wizard, that doesn't mean they couldn't make the cost of attack not worth it. The situation could easily be similar to the WWI stand-off between the British and Germany navies. The British could EASILY win, but winning would cost them so many ships they'd no longer be the top naval power -- this was, in fact, part of german naval strategy at the time.

Long-term, such a place probably wouldn't last. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be quite stable in the short term. There are easier ways to get souls.

Of course, it is possible the DM didn't really think any of the ramifications out and this city shouldn't exist at all.

Hmm, though, as a point of comparison I'd bring up Krynn after the Cataclysm. There were lots of anti-wizard places then, and they did ok. In part because THE major wizard power that more or less controlled all wizards didn't want to go to war over it. They were generally happy enough keeping to their own devices.

The Insanity

2013-12-11, 07:42 AM

IIRC, Ao has some worshipers, but Ao being Ao, he doesn't give any powers and ignores their prayers. Why would they worship him then?

Re: the deity defending the city: he could have Clerics outside of the city protecting it, or have covert clerical groups.

Bakeru

2013-12-11, 08:17 AM

IIRC, Ao has some worshipers, but Ao being Ao, he doesn't give any powers and ignores their prayers. Why would they worship him then?From things I believe to remember:
The actual reason is not explicitly stated, but it is said that no one ever attacked the Church of Ao as a whole. Singular worshippers might get attacked for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, but no one targets Ao's worshippers specifically, even though they are active in the religious politics of Faerûn.
Also, Ao's the biggest guy in the playground. Even if the chances are slim (and the human mind often has trouble telling "slim" and "non-existent" chances apart, because our instincts are bad at calculating probability), people still try to be his friends, because if he protects you, no one messes with you.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-11, 08:26 AM

The answer is "it depends." We don't even know this place is on the same plane/planet as the OP was on originally. That can change a ton of factors that we have no knowledge of.The central point remains the same. They have -no- defense against the majority of supernatural threats and precious little against what's left.

And I think you greatly discount the fact that it costs resources to take over any place. It costs more if you intend to leave people alive. Everyone has limited resources, and has to allocate them wisely.For a traditional war of conquest, yes resources will be consumed. For an infiltration by a mind-flayer enclave or when the Baatezu notice the place and turn it into their puppet state it will cost next to nothing. On motivation, mind-flayers do this sort of thing out of sociological curiosity and the Baatezu do it as a matter of course with every intention of having eventually taken over the entirety of the prime so that they can hopefully use the souls to win the blood war and elevate their own race to the supreme rulers of the cosmos.

Just assuming there's someone out there that knows about them, hates them enough to get them, and that no one else will care or do anything are pretty big assumptions. Mr. Super Evil Wizard attacks this place, then Mr. Good Wizard (arch enemy) will stop him on principle. Again, assuming this place is worth it, known about, etc.That's all well and good for lone egomaniacs but there are whole civilizations dedicated to conquest either by force or by subterfuge and at least one race of immortals dedicated to ultimately conquering the cosmos by corrupting every mortal in existence.

Also assumes they have no ways to deal with magic in any way shape or form. While they can't completely counter a high level wizard, that doesn't mean they couldn't make the cost of attack not worth it. The situation could easily be similar to the WWI stand-off between the British and Germany navies. The British could EASILY win, but winning would cost them so many ships they'd no longer be the top naval power -- this was, in fact, part of german naval strategy at the time.Yeah... they -do- have virtually no defense against magic. Even at the low end of mid-level magic that can only be countered by magic starts showing up.

Long-term, such a place probably wouldn't last. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be quite stable in the short term. There are easier ways to get souls.There really aren't. A devil doesn't have to corrupt every individual soul. If he corrupts the society such that the young are brought up Lawful Evil he gets credit for whole generations of citizens and all he's got to do is make sure no meddling heroes that come along are successful in undoing his work. With them all but completely unable to stop his machinations or even pin him down should they stumble upon his plot it will be relatively trivial. If he's already of a high enough rank to have minions, as would be the case with, say, a harvester devil, then he could do so within a generation or two with none the wiser and then start undermining the prejudice against magic or at least strategically placing mages or priests under infernal influence within important positions within the ever growing and entrenching bureaucracy to fend off would be heroes.

Of course, it is possible the DM didn't really think any of the ramifications out and this city shouldn't exist at all.As much as I hate this answer, it is all too often the correct one.

Hmm, though, as a point of comparison I'd bring up Krynn after the Cataclysm. There were lots of anti-wizard places then, and they did ok. In part because THE major wizard power that more or less controlled all wizards didn't want to go to war over it. They were generally happy enough keeping to their own devices. Actually, the anti-wizardry sentiment came -before- the cataclysm as a result of the kingpriestss ever expanding list of enemies of the state. Fanaticism is a scary thing.

Even so, it's a bad comparison. The city in question is against -all- magic, not just arcane. Prejudice against either type of magic in a populace isn't a problem when the other is still represented but discarding both is just not going to work in such a magically rich world. It only worked on Krynn just after the cataclysm because most of the lesser evil creatures were pushed to the brink of extinction by the concerted efforts of the knights of solamnia and the armies of ishtar under the kingpriests and the dragons had been sealed away by epic magic or had withdrawn from the world. Even there it was relatively short-lived at under 400 years.

Brookshw

2013-12-11, 09:23 AM

From things I believe to remember:
The actual reason is not explicitly stated, but it is said that no one ever attacked the Church of Ao as a whole. Singular worshippers might get attacked for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, but no one targets Ao's worshippers specifically, even though they are active in the religious politics of Faerûn.
Also, Ao's the biggest guy in the playground. Even if the chances are slim (and the human mind often has trouble telling "slim" and "non-existent" chances apart, because our instincts are bad at calculating probability), people still try to be his friends, because if he protects you, no one messes with you.

I'll leave it to the individual to decide if its Canon or not, but at the end of the time of trouble trilogy Ao has a very brief conversation with someone he refers to as "master". I'm unaware of any later information regarding who that individual may have been or if mortals have any knowledge of them.

I chalk it up to the authors wanting to leave the world open such that there will always be further mysteries and that there could masses of things yet to be discovered.

Mnemnosyne

2013-12-11, 10:41 AM

Again, then we're bringing a non-magical city into direct conflict with casters, that stretches my suspension of disbelief and I'm the one that's been arguing the city is fine. Casters win, period, in D&D. Especially in conflict with mundanes. However there is no reason why they would interfere with a city that's below their interest and out of the way, that's the best bet for survival, not direct conflict or attempting to build direct countermeasures.
You keep arguing that people wouldn't bother the city, but there are reasons to do so, as I pointed out upthread. But even if we assume no one has any interest in bothering the city...it's still screwed. Why? Two words: Random Encounters.

Checking the random encounter tables in the DMG, there are ghouls, allips, shadows, and wights, all on the CR 1-3 section of 'Any Wilderness Environment'. Every time someone wanders out into a nearby forest to, say, chop some wood, they potentially trigger a random encounter with a monster that can wipe out the entire city. So unless nobody ever leaves the non-wilderness area around the city...oh wait. One of the urban encounters is 'Monster.' A monster appropriate for the type of terrain surrounding the city rampages through the city. So. Even if nobody ever leaves the urban environment, sooner or later someone's going to roll the Monster random encounter, and the random monster rolled up is going to be a city-ending one.

That's all it takes. One random encounter with a CR 3 monster. In most places, somebody would have a magical weapon or a low level spell that would be sufficient for taking down the shadow, but not in no-magic-ville (soon to be renamed Shadowville).

Rogue Shadows

2013-12-11, 10:48 AM

I'll leave it to the individual to decide if its Canon or not, but at the end of the time of trouble trilogy Ao has a very brief conversation with someone he refers to as "master". I'm unaware of any later information regarding who that individual may have been or if mortals have any knowledge of them.

I think it's generally presumed that the "master" was, specifically, the Dungeon Master. At the end of the day, Ao, for all his power, is still our plaything.

Vhaidara

2013-12-11, 10:55 AM

AMFV

2013-12-11, 11:32 AM

You keep arguing that people wouldn't bother the city, but there are reasons to do so, as I pointed out upthread. But even if we assume no one has any interest in bothering the city...it's still screwed. Why? Two words: Random Encounters.

Checking the random encounter tables in the DMG, there are ghouls, allips, shadows, and wights, all on the CR 1-3 section of 'Any Wilderness Environment'. Every time someone wanders out into a nearby forest to, say, chop some wood, they potentially trigger a random encounter with a monster that can wipe out the entire city. So unless nobody ever leaves the non-wilderness area around the city...oh wait. One of the urban encounters is 'Monster.' A monster appropriate for the type of terrain surrounding the city rampages through the city. So. Even if nobody ever leaves the urban environment, sooner or later someone's going to roll the Monster random encounter, and the random monster rolled up is going to be a city-ending one.

That's all it takes. One random encounter with a CR 3 monster. In most places, somebody would have a magical weapon or a low level spell that would be sufficient for taking down the shadow, but not in no-magic-ville (soon to be renamed Shadowville).

However since the encounter tables for the area are set by the DM, then I see this as not necessarily being a problem. We must remember that the metagame is important here as well, we don't have random encounters snuffing out small encounter starting villages often either. And statistically they would wind up being completely destroyed.

My argument is that this is entirely dependent on the setting and the DM, since the previous example city was created by the DM, we must conclude that he's moved the city to agree with that.

Furthermore we know they are anti-caster, but not necessarily anti-magic items, perhaps they could trade for them, it wouldn't be too terribly unusual to have some mildly hypocritical rules in place.

Lastly, maybe they are an LE city being used by a Devil, I mean the OP certainly presents what could be an LE city, they are monitoring strangers all the time, putting them on blacklists for using magic and threatening legal action. It sounds like they're already LE, so maybe instead of some God watching over them it's a powerful Devil, who wants magic restricted for one reason or another.

And a CR 20 Pit Fiend could probably handle some shadows if they turned into a problem. There that's one solid possible explanation.

TrollCapAmerica

2013-12-11, 11:44 AM

This has probably been mentioned, but there is a safe place for this city to exist: The base of the Spire at the center of the Outlands. There is NO magic at the base of the Spire. Gods get their mojo turned off.

Anywhere else? I'd say they're pretty much screwed.

That kinda thing only worked in 2nd ed when Lorraine Williams was in charge.Try telling Pun-Pun he cant do something in this edition I dares ya!

AMFV

2013-12-11, 11:48 AM

That kinda thing only worked in 2nd ed when Lorraine Williams was in charge.Try telling Pun-Pun he cant do something in this edition I dares ya!

Pun Pun doesn't exist in most standard settings, so he's not a problem, unless the DM lets somebody create him. The setting is defined by the DM, in large part, and so are it's rules, he can set rules about character creation and such beforehand, and define the world to provide for his city's survival.

Although I like my evil archfiend controlling the city idea, since that helps explain why no fiends are there looking for the souls (they've already won, and nobody messes with things that belong to the archfiend), why nobody bothers the city, and why random encounters aren't a problem.

And while we don't know why the Archfiend would limit magic, the plans are inscrutable and infinitely complicated, so I'm sure he has some reason to do so.

TrollCapAmerica

2013-12-11, 12:07 PM

Pun Pun doesn't exist in most standard settings, so he's not a problem, unless the DM lets somebody create him. The setting is defined by the DM, in large part, and so are it's rules, he can set rules about character creation and such beforehand, and define the world to provide for his city's survival.

Although I like my evil archfiend controlling the city idea, since that helps explain why no fiends are there looking for the souls (they've already won, and nobody messes with things that belong to the archfiend), why nobody bothers the city, and why random encounters aren't a problem.

And while we don't know why the Archfiend would limit magic, the plans are inscrutable and infinitely complicated, so I'm sure he has some reason to do so.

That was funny and rhetorical.It was not meant to be answered

AMFV

2013-12-11, 12:09 PM

That was funny and rhetorical.It was not meant to be answered

Answering rhetorical questions is humor in and of itself though. And it's the best kind of humor, drier than a seared steak.

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 12:44 PM

That's all well and good for lone egomaniacs but there are whole civilizations dedicated to conquest either by force or by subterfuge and at least one race of immortals dedicated to ultimately conquering the cosmos by corrupting every mortal in existence.

Demons are opposed by angels. Evil empires opposed by good. The City could very well be in a relatively peaceful place with no grave threats such as shadows, ghouls, etc.

Yeah... they -do- have virtually no defense against magic. Even at the low end of mid-level magic that can only be countered by magic starts showing up.

Not at all. There are actually a number of non-caster classes and variations of partial casters that can help deal with magic. Not perfect, but quite sufficient for the low to mid end in most situations. And there are ways for non-casters to create magic equipment. Anti-caster doesn't necessarily mean anti-magic. And of course, magic powers in the region or who keep on eye on the region could help out. Remember, any power that benefits means there's another power on the opposite end that loses.

That devil infiltrating the city? Well there's a team of hidden agents in the city who are there just to look for that sort of thing and deal with it (or call in help to deal with it).

Actually, the anti-wizardry sentiment came -before- the cataclysm as a result of the kingpriestss ever expanding list of enemies of the state. Fanaticism is a scary thing.

I didn't view that as a needed detail.

Even so, it's a bad comparison. The city in question is against -all- magic, not just arcane. Prejudice against either type of magic in a populace isn't a problem when the other is still represented but discarding both is just not going to work in such a magically rich world. It only worked on Krynn just after the cataclysm because most of the lesser evil creatures were pushed to the brink of extinction by the concerted efforts of the knights of solamnia and the armies of ishtar under the kingpriests and the dragons had been sealed away by epic magic or had withdrawn from the world. Even there it was relatively short-lived at under 400 years.

Prejudice against wizards was actually very common in those 400 years -- which is long enough for us to call such a city relatively stable certainly. Again, the Wizards in the setting could have wiped everyone out, but they didn't.

Vhaidara

2013-12-11, 12:48 PM

That kinda thing only worked in 2nd ed when Lorraine Williams was in charge.Try telling Pun-Pun he cant do something in this edition I dares ya!

Actually, by my understanding, the Lady of Pain might be Pun-Pun. From what I've been told, her stats and abilities are deliberately left at x, y, and z, where x is bigger than yours, y is bigger than x to the x power, and z is just really freaking big.

Rogue Shadows

2013-12-11, 12:50 PM

Actually, by my understanding, the Lady of Pain might be Pun-Pun. From what I've been told, her stats and abilities are deliberately left at x, y, and z, where x is bigger than yours, y is bigger than x to the x power, and z is just really freaking big.

No, Her Serenity just lacks stats altogether (as does Ao). Pun Pun, on the other hand, very specifically has stats. They're arbitrarily large, but they're still there.

Coidzor

2013-12-11, 03:59 PM

I would suggest that's probably a poor strategy, since nomagicville is best served by being a backwater everybody ignores. Attracting attention to themselves is going to cause all kinds of problems, and bring out enemies that can crush their city. The best method is simply to be not worth anyone's time.

Security through obscurity only goes so far, however. And if you're actually a city, you're lacking even that due to the things necessary for the formation and maintenance of a city.

Devils prefer powerful souls... and the souls of many commoners isn't really worth their time and effort. It's why they tempt kings and the like but rarely farmers. Frankly if Devil's were going after commoner souls they could probably get away with that almost anywhere.

It's not much time considering the time scales they operate on and not much effort when they're essentially unopposed and not many Devils would be required either, due to said lack of opposition. I could see an Imp or small group of Imps seeing an entire city as a good addition to their resume/C.V./file.

I think it's generally presumed that the "master" was, specifically, the Dungeon Master. At the end of the day, Ao, for all his power, is still our plaything.

Me, I thought it was a reference of Ed Greenwood being subordinate to WOTC myself. But then i can never remember if Elminster or Ao or both are Ed Greenwood and Ao is actually TSR/WOTC and in that case I guess it'd change to WOTC addressing its shareholders? :smallconfused:

Something pertaining to the 4th wall, at any rate.

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 04:21 PM

It's not much time considering the time scales they operate on and not much effort when they're essentially unopposed and not many Devils would be required either, due to said lack of opposition. I could see an Imp or small group of Imps seeing an entire city as a good addition to their resume/C.V./file.

Why do you guys assume they are unopposed? Again, the good guys have just as much interest in stopping the bad guys. It would just all be cloak and dagger.

ryu

2013-12-11, 04:31 PM

Why do you guys assume they are unopposed? Again, the good guys have just as much interest in stopping the bad guys. It would just all be cloak and dagger.

And what does the village have to offer the murderhobos? They're apparently small enough to be obscure, no magic, and murderhobos aren't known for just settling down in a given town completely.

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 04:33 PM

And what does the village have to offer the murderhobos? They're apparently small enough to be obscure, no magic, and murderhobos aren't known for just settling down in a given town completely.

There are a crap-ton of forces of good out there besides the PCs or other adventurers.

Kraken

2013-12-11, 04:34 PM

Why do you guys assume they are unopposed? Again, the good guys have just as much interest in stopping the bad guys. It would just all be cloak and dagger.

This is basically an admission that the city itself is helpless.

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 04:39 PM

This is basically an admission that the city itself is helpless.

Kind of like saying your immune system is helpless against certain disease. Except there are treatments that eliminate them.

So yeah, the city is helpless.....

except
1. They can have non-casters make magic items
2. They can have non-casters that can handle a lot of the defense really well via various PrCs, ToB, etc. Not as well as a high level caster, mind you, but sufficient to tremendously up the difficulty of attack.
3. If it is worth evil forces investing in attacking, then it is worth good forces investing in defending. So if a Devil sneaks in, then there's probably an Angel hiding in there too. Etc, etc.

Kraken

2013-12-11, 04:46 PM

Coidzor

2013-12-11, 04:51 PM

Why do you guys assume they are unopposed? Again, the good guys have just as much interest in stopping the bad guys. It would just all be cloak and dagger.

No magic on the part of the inhabitants means that the devils are essentially without opposition from the inhabitants of the city and those who are allowed within the city.

No equivalent low level, cloak-and-dagger celestials to act as counterparts to the fiends.

Adventurers haven't taken it over and revised the rules so that they at least have magic. Adventurers are thus unlikely to be of the sort that would be a problem if present.

Kind of like saying your immune system is helpless against certain disease. Except there are treatments that eliminate them.

So yeah, the city is helpless.....

So you're saying that your immune system isn't part of you but is a foreign body acting on your behalf? :smallconfused: Pretty daring, I must admit.

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 04:51 PM

The thread title specifically says 3.5 D&D. How do non-casters make magic items?

But anyway, your third point is what I was attacking in the first place. Outside magic help coming to the aid of the city is totally irrelevant to the thread, this is about the city defending itself.

Off the top of my head, Battlesmith (dwarf PrC, iirc) can makes arms and armor and there's a magic forge in one of the books that lets any crafter make magic items.

How is outside help irrelevent? The topic isn't about the city defending itself. The topic is about how screwed the city is. Very different. Sure, the OP assumed it would have to be mundane methods, but he overlooked a lot of options. If you're going to assume things hell-bent on taking out the city, then you have to allow for the fact there will be things heaven-bent on protecting it. These are part of the same ecosystem.

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 04:53 PM

No magic on the part of the inhabitants means that the devils are essentially without opposition from the inhabitants of the city and those who are allowed within the city.

No equivalent low level, cloak-and-dagger celestials to act as counterparts to the fiends.

Adventurers haven't taken it over and revised the rules so that they at least have magic. Adventurers are thus unlikely to be of the sort that would be a problem if present.

No spellcasting by the inhabitants...officially. If a celestial sneaks in and disguises its magic, then the city will be safer and no one will notice. Same with other cloak and dagger entities.

And again, the city seems perfectly capable of having and using magic items.

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 04:55 PM

So you're saying that your immune system isn't part of you but is a foreign body acting on your behalf? :smallconfused: Pretty daring, I must admit.

No, I'm saying distinguishing between the two doesn't really matter as far as the final result in concerned.

You guys seem to be saying "only evil things can interfere with the city." Which is ludicrous. By that standard, ANY city would get taken out.

Coidzor

2013-12-11, 04:58 PM

No spellcasting by the inhabitants...officially. If a celestial sneaks in and disguises its magic, then the city will be safer and no one will notice.

Same with other cloak and dagger entities.

And again, the city seems perfectly capable of having and using magic items.

And how many mid-to-high level celestials are you diverting to counter the investment of one imp, maybe up to a half dozen or so? :smallamused:

Well, then you're just supporting the lack of defensibility of the city and defaulting back to the interesting idea where there's so many different people trying to take over the city that they're all in one huge mexican standoff.

If they hate spellcasters they're not going to use magic items to make themselves into spellcasters, and what magic items you're suggesting they have (largely seems to be weapons) don't seem up to the task of ferreting out the corrupting influence that's being discussed.

No, I'm saying distinguishing between the two doesn't really matter as far as the final result in concerned.

You guys seem to be saying "only evil things can interfere with the city." Which is ludicrous. By that standard, ANY city would get taken out.

Well, as long as you're aware of what you just walked into and could have avoided. *shrug* Saying that the city is essentially just terrain rather than an active player in its own fate is less than good for its chances and how screwed it is though.

Only evil things would have a strong interest in the city, as it's rather hard to force people to be good and stay good one's self. It's rather hard to ferret out corruption in conditions that beg for it to be applied.

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 05:14 PM

And how many mid-to-high level celestials are you diverting to counter the investment of one imp, maybe up to a half dozen or so? :smallamused:

Why so many? Agents of good can do most of the same tricks in more ethical ways and "detect magic" or and "see invisiblity" do a lot to stop imps.

Granted, it is harder to point out specific creatures, since a lot fewer good creatures were written up (since PCs seldom fight them). But there are still a number of things that would work.

Well, then you're just supporting the lack of defensibility of the city and defaulting back to the interesting idea where there's so many different people trying to take over the city that they're all in one huge mexican standoff.

Bit of that, bit of other stuff.

If they hate spellcasters they're not going to use magic items to make themselves into spellcasters, and what magic items you're suggesting they have (largely seems to be weapons) don't seem up to the task of ferreting out the corrupting influence that's being discussed

That's an assumption of yours. Why they dislike magic users (it's even unclear if it is just arcane or not, I think) isn't clear. There are lots of options that still let them use magic, supernatural abilities, etc. So there's a potential for a lot of capability there that doesn't rely on spellcasting.

Even if restricted to arms and armor, there's a lot of stuff that would help. But I think the forge (don't remember for sure) allows more than that.

Well, as long as you're aware of what you just walked into and could have avoided. *shrug* Saying that the city is essentially just terrain rather than an active player in its own fate is less than good for its chances and how screwed it is though.

Like I've been saying, there are a number of things it can do.

Only evil things would have a strong interest in the city, as it's rather hard to force people to be good and stay good one's self. It's rather hard to ferret out corruption in conditions that beg for it to be applied.

Fact is, if the forces of evil have a strong interest, then so will the forces of good -- if only to stop the forces of evil. Though why exactly does good not want to win over the inhabitants? I'm don't see a reason why they'd not care.

Kraken

2013-12-11, 05:16 PM

Off the top of my head, Battlesmith (dwarf PrC, iirc) can makes arms and armor and there's a magic forge in one of the books that lets any crafter make magic items.

How is outside help irrelevent? The topic isn't about the city defending itself. The topic is about how screwed the city is. Very different. Sure, the OP assumed it would have to be mundane methods, but he overlooked a lot of options. If you're going to assume things hell-bent on taking out the city, then you have to allow for the fact there will be things heaven-bent on protecting it. These are part of the same ecosystem.

No spellcasting by the inhabitants...officially. If a celestial sneaks in and disguises its magic, then the city will be safer and no one will notice. Same with other cloak and dagger entities.

Outside magic help, as I said. You specifically mentioned celestials and angels, which are not by any stretch of the imagination something that could be fairly considered "mundane," which is the word used in the OP. You're expanding the criteria of the OP, and if you want to do that, make a different thread. Frankly, magic items aren't something that would be accurately described as mundane either (maybe weapons and armor with enhancement bonuses only), and the battlesmith example you give is very limited anyway, because it does not waive the fact that you must meet the prerequisites for crafting magic items. Without having a spellcaster, this functionally means you're limited to crafting weapons and armor with an enhancement bonus. High level mundane classes with no magic are at best, an inconvenience. A large one, to be sure, but an insufficient one.

Drachasor

2013-12-11, 05:20 PM

Outside magic help, as I said. You specifically mentioned celestials and angels, which are not by any stretch of the imagination something that could be fairly considered "mundane," which is the word used in the OP. You're expanding the criteria of the OP, and if you want to do that, make a different thread. Frankly, magic items aren't something that would be accurately described as mundane either (maybe weapons and armor with enhancement bonuses only), and the battlesmith example you give is very limited anyway, because it does not waive the fact that you must meet the prerequisites for crafting magic items. Without having a spellcaster, this functionally means you're limited to crafting weapons and armor with an enhancement bonus. High level mundane classes with no magic are at best, an inconvenience. A large one, to be sure, but an insufficient one.

And like I said, I don't think the OP really considered the fact that if big bads are taking an interesting, then big goods will too. I'd hardly consider that off-topic.

I forgot that about the battlesmith. I think the forge is better, but I really don't recall. Anyhow, as others have pointed out, nothing stops them from trading for magic items. There's no reason to think their high levels aren't fully equipped.

No city could defend itself adequately if only big bads were going to mess around with it and everyone else didn't touch it.

The city is certainly at a tremendous disadvantage, but that doesn't mean it is totally screwed.

ryu

2013-12-11, 05:24 PM

Kraken

2013-12-11, 05:30 PM

And like I said, I don't think the OP really considered the fact that if big bads are taking an interesting, then big goods will too. I'd hardly consider that off-topic.

I forgot that about the battlesmith. I think the forge is better, but I really don't recall. Anyhow, as others have pointed out, nothing stops them from trading for magic items. There's no reason to think their high levels aren't fully equipped.

No city could defend itself adequately if only big bads were going to mess around with it and everyone else didn't touch it.

The city is certainly at a tremendous disadvantage, but that doesn't mean it is totally screwed.

Big mundane good guys. Outside help is never prohibited. I have never said this is the case. Nobody has, I don't think. The fact that you mention celestials being able sneak to around magically and help the locals without their knowing it is an argument that they're even more screwed, frankly. If you essentially want to use the city as a battleground between good and evil casters/outsiders, as mentioned you've merely turned the city into terrain. Without one side of magic users to oppose the other (maybe it's good guys trying to destroy an evil city, too), the city has no meaningful defense against level 15+ casters (called for by the OP), the power differential is simply too large by that point in the game.

What is this forge you're talking about? Even if it's not relevant to the discussion I'm curious.

Coidzor

2013-12-11, 07:02 PM

What is this forge you're talking about? Even if it's not relevant to the discussion I'm curious.

I believe from Races of Stone, there's a couple of them. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=6)

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-11, 08:18 PM

Why do you guys assume they are unopposed? Again, the good guys have just as much interest in stopping the bad guys. It would just all be cloak and dagger.

It's not that they are literally unopposed. They are, however, functionally unopposed. Magic items especially when limited to magical arms and armor simply can't keep up with the more subtle and indirect forms of magic when they're applied with skill and finesse.

It's like trying to outperform a skilled surgeon when all you have is the tools in an mechanic's garage. You might be able to fix some of the most blatantly obvious problems like flesh wounds and broken bones but you simply can't compete on the same level.

This, of course, ignores the fact that you can't actually get anything but simple enhancement bonuses without the direct cooperation of casters. Those forges have caster level and spell requirements as well as requiring craft wondrous item, and they -don't- remove the need to meet spell requirements for whatever you craft on them. They're also rather too pricy to have more than a handful in the city and battlesmiths are at minimum 8th level characters, meaning they'll be rather uncommon as well.

Even then the city in the OP isn't anti-caster. It's anti-magic. Even magic items would be seen as elements of that which is hated by the people.

The argument that good outside forces would act on their behalf also has issues. At the very least they can't or generally won't just up and murder witnesses that catch them in the act., making their successful infiltration that much more difficult for them than those they oppose. The hostility of their neighbors is also a constant drain on morale for non immortals. Then there's the difficulties of security vs stealth when the most effective tools, well placed wards and footmen with the ability to see through subterfuge, are cut off at the knees by having to remain secret themselves.

Edit: Was posting at the laundromat, got interrupted. Now a continuation, though I was mostly just going to summarize.

Further, while expansion for its own sake is quite common, defense of a hostile people with little to offer is only really going to be offered by those who are good simply for the sake of being good and even a neighboring good land might consider simply annexing the city for the sake of its people and their near defenselessness against outside threats that think nothing of using magic.

To review; the city has no defenses of its own against magic, is hostile to those who would use magic on their behalf, has almost nothing to offer mercenaries as its production of goods is stunted compared to other cities (no clerics to heal injured workers, no druids or plant clerics to boost agriculture, no mages or clerics of artifice to produce alchemical or supernaturally superior goods, etc), and is a ripe target for the Baatezu, illithids, and any of a host of other organizations that would happily take control of it simply for being there.

How is it -not- screwed again?

Coidzor

2013-12-11, 08:45 PM

The hostility of their neighbors is also a constant drain on morale for non immortals.

I imagine being hated by the people one is protecting is a drain on celestials as well and a potential for helping along a fall.

Pickford

2013-12-11, 11:39 PM

Depends...imagine you are in a society that is so hostile to magic, the very mention of it confers not only a bad look, but also being put on a list. Not metaphorically either, an actual list.

Ok. Now, imagine what the consequences are if anyone witnesses the use of magic, or there is a situation that simply screams 'Magic Just Happened Here!'. How do you think the authorities in that society would react?

At a minimum, I'd imagine the following:

Martial Law Imposed: All gates are barred, curfews are put out, all travelers into and out of the city are searched and must possess documents explaining their reason for travel etc...

Witch Hunt: The city/society would almost certainly have a cadre of soldiers/city watch whose entire purpose is to aggressively find and persecute magic users of all types. Presumably they would themselves have access to Divination magic (despite magic otherwise being frowned upon) and possibly even a sanctioned mage or two (ala Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn). Being a magic user would likely be grounds for confiscation of all goods (i.e. spellbooks), probably torture, and possibly a death sentence.

Trackers would probably use animals (trained war-dogs, etc...) to grapple spellcasters, while most other members of the unit would use crossbows with readied actions in case the suspect attempts to cast a spell. When you're reduced to purely mundane, the focus is necessarily on numbers and tactics. Assuming these guys are also the ones who deal with other problems, they'd likely have access to special equipment (silver weapons, cold iron weapons, holy water, spoils from previously taken magic criminals etc...) for dealing with the undead/demons/magic beasties. Again, the focus is almost certainly on using numbers and tactics. Lastly, they would almost certainly have max ranks in spellcraft, possibly with skill focus spellcraft, to identify magical materials or spellcasters accurately.

As a necessity, the city would have to have a system setup to deal with undead, sewer systems, and thoroughly check on unusual disturbances. Assuming Divine Magic is also outlawed, bodies are likely incinerated to prevent undead. Even a single necromancer passing through would make this a near certainty. Deaths within the city might be closely monitored, and it's logical to assume that killings within city limits are rigorously investigated to ensure that any potential Ghosts (i.e. unresolved issues) are ...well, resolved.

Sure, a high level Wizard could go to this city...but why would they? No magic users means no market of goods that the wizard would be interested in. Why go to non-magic city X when magic city Y exists?

Tysis: Apocalypse from the Sky deals 1d3 damage to the Wizard who memorizes it for every day it's memorized. It also requires the consumption of an artifact. So, the Wizard destroys and artifact, and probably dies and/or turns into a gibbering idiot, and they 'maybe' kill the entire population of a city that doesn't use any magic at all. Yeah, that's clearly a win for the wizard.

Malroth:

Since any meaningful defenses against a wight are magical in nature its going to raise dozens of spawn before its stopped.

Ranged weaponry defeats a Wight without any danger to the mundanes. Assuming this is a magic-paranoid society, everyone and their brother would be carrying crossbows and at the first sign of magic would be running for the authorities, or to call in reinforcements locking down the area.

AMFV:

Teleport fundamentally alters the reality of warfare.

Not...exactly. Teleport is a 5th level spell. The number of 9th level+ casters in any given kingdom is abysmally low Like maybe 10 at the top end, if you're lucky, and they probably aren't part of the military. They can each teleport themselves + 3 others once per day. Every assault will see 1 caster and his 3 cohorts missing in action (thrown off by 1-100% of the distance traveled, possibly dead depending on where they actually arrived). With that attrition rate, there will be exactly no casters of any significance within a given kingdom after a mere 10 battles, and that's not even considering the probability they will be killed on arrival by defending forces. (Shoot the one in the bathrobe!)

Emperor_Tippy:

Now once those initial TC's are publicly unveiled they will spread fast as the economic and security benefits are too massive for anything else to happen. But then you get the teleport wars as, as with any major disruptive advancement in military technology, you get the various nations and factions using their new ability to try and conquer or survive.

For there to be a successful teleport war using TCs, one must posit that literally nobody considers the idea of destroying said circles. (As simple as a casting of Greater Dispel Magic or Mordenkainen's Disjunction...or actually smashing the ground on which the circle was created easily done by any mundane.) That supposition is so improbable as to be impossible.

TripleD: Hah, I like it.

Emperor Tippy

2013-12-12, 12:07 AM

Not...exactly. Teleport is a 5th level spell. The number of 9th level+ casters in any given kingdom is abysmally low Like maybe 10 at the top end, if you're lucky, and they probably aren't part of the military. They can each teleport themselves + 3 others once per day. Every assault will see 1 caster and his 3 cohorts missing in action (thrown off by 1-100% of the distance traveled, possibly dead depending on where they actually arrived). With that attrition rate, there will be exactly no casters of any significance within a given kingdom after a mere 10 battles, and that's not even considering the probability they will be killed on arrival by defending forces. (Shoot the one in the bathrobe!)
Or you Planar Bind a Hound Archon and give it a few Portable Hole's. You can move a whole army to anywhere on the same plane in a day or two. If you don't get why this changes warfare then, well I can't help you.

For there to be a successful teleport war using TCs, one must posit that literally nobody considers the idea of destroying said circles. (As simple as a casting of Greater Dispel Magic or Mordenkainen's Disjunction...or actually smashing the ground on which the circle was created easily done by any mundane.) That supposition is so improbable as to be impossible.
Preventing their destruction is as simple as having an Ice Assassin of a Solar with Tenacious Magic: Permanency be the one to make them permanent. Leaving that aside, destroying the circles does nothing much at all as the circle can be back up again in ten minutes. And then there is actually little things like security.

This isn't a real concern because once the idea spreads all you need to make a TC is an eleventh level Warlock.

AMFV

2013-12-12, 12:10 AM

AMFV:

Not...exactly. Teleport is a 5th level spell. The number of 9th level+ casters in any given kingdom is abysmally low Like maybe 10 at the top end, if you're lucky, and they probably aren't part of the military. They can each teleport themselves + 3 others once per day. Every assault will see 1 caster and his 3 cohorts missing in action (thrown off by 1-100% of the distance traveled, possibly dead depending on where they actually arrived). With that attrition rate, there will be exactly no casters of any significance within a given kingdom after a mere 10 battles, and that's not even considering the probability they will be killed on arrival by defending forces. (Shoot the one in the bathrobe!)

Firstly a war wizard would never wear robes, and might wear a disguise, that's pretty much just basic tactics, the same reason that officers don't wear rank in the field in modern warfare. If a 2nd Lieutenant can think of something like that then a 22 Int wizard definitely can.

The key is to move small cadres of forces quickly sent to weak points in defenses, where they can then exploit them, if you can't figure out how that would work, then you've just not studied a lot of military tactics, modern generals would kill for the ability to put several soldiers in a spot, particularly those who can do magic.

Wizards zipping around a battlefield using battlefield control who know most of the regions intimately beforehand (due to scrying) therefore pretty nearly eliminating the chance of mishap to almost nothing. That changes the face of warfare, completely and totally.

Augmental

2013-12-12, 12:14 AM

Sure, a high level Wizard could go to this city...but why would they? No magic users means no market of goods that the wizard would be interested in. Why go to non-magic city X when magic city Y exists?

Because the city guard is torturing and murdering spellcasters and he wants to put a stop to it?

Drachasor

2013-12-12, 12:22 AM

It's not that they are literally unopposed. They are, however, functionally unopposed. Magic items especially when limited to magical arms and armor simply can't keep up with the more subtle and indirect forms of magic when they're applied with skill and finesse.

It's like trying to outperform a skilled surgeon when all you have is the tools in an mechanic's garage. You might be able to fix some of the most blatantly obvious problems like flesh wounds and broken bones but you simply can't compete on the same level.

This, of course, ignores the fact that you can't actually get anything but simple enhancement bonuses without the direct cooperation of casters. Those forges have caster level and spell requirements as well as requiring craft wondrous item, and they -don't- remove the need to meet spell requirements for whatever you craft on them. They're also rather too pricy to have more than a handful in the city and battlesmiths are at minimum 8th level characters, meaning they'll be rather uncommon as well.

I forgot about the prereq bit. Anyhow, if magic items are good, they can certainly buy them and be equipped. And their NPCs would be properly equipped.

Even then the city in the OP isn't anti-caster. It's anti-magic. Even magic items would be seen as elements of that which is hated by the people.

That's a supposition by the OP, not confirmed as true. But if they can't use magic items, supernatural powers, or spell-likes, then I agree they are completely dependent on outside help.

The argument that good outside forces would act on their behalf also has issues. At the very least they can't or generally won't just up and murder witnesses that catch them in the act., making their successful infiltration that much more difficult for them than those they oppose. The hostility of their neighbors is also a constant drain on morale for non immortals. Then there's the difficulties of security vs stealth when the most effective tools, well placed wards and footmen with the ability to see through subterfuge, are cut off at the knees by having to remain secret themselves.

It's cute that you think they'd have to kill witnesses. There are at the very least dozens of alternatives in D&D, assuming you didn't avoid witnesses altogether. As for morale, like any op in a semi-hostile nation, the focus would be on opposing the EVIL forces. Though, for GOOD characters, helping to protect the innocent (however misguided) is a pretty big deal too.

As for wards, as long as they are concealed so they can't be seen, then they'd work just as well. Sure, the guards might wonder why these enemies just can't make it past the gates, but that won't stop them from acting.

Further, while expansion for its own sake is quite common, defense of a hostile people with little to offer is only really going to be offered by those who are good simply for the sake of being good and even a neighboring good land might consider simply annexing the city for the sake of its people and their near defenselessness against outside threats that think nothing of using magic.

Not so different from many situations in the Cold War. They are potentially a powerful enemy asset, and so you have to act to prevent the enemy from just taking it.

If an foreign good power takes over, I'd hardly called the city "screwed." They'd probably benefit quite a lot from it. Fair to say the political environment is not going to be so stable.

To review; the city has no defenses of its own against magic, is hostile to those who would use magic on their behalf, has almost nothing to offer mercenaries as its production of goods is stunted compared to other cities (no clerics to heal injured workers, no druids or plant clerics to boost agriculture, no mages or clerics of artifice to produce alchemical or supernaturally superior goods, etc), and is a ripe target for the Baatezu, illithids, and any of a host of other organizations that would happily take control of it simply for being there.

How is it -not- screwed again?

To be fair, even if it had magic items and casters, there are not many defenses against magic without epic spells. Sad fact, but D&D spell lists are sorely lacking here.

Big mundane good guys. Outside help is never prohibited. I have never said this is the case. Nobody has, I don't think. The fact that you mention celestials being able sneak to around magically and help the locals without their knowing it is an argument that they're even more screwed, frankly. If you essentially want to use the city as a battleground between good and evil casters/outsiders, as mentioned you've merely turned the city into terrain. Without one side of magic users to oppose the other (maybe it's good guys trying to destroy an evil city, too), the city has no meaningful defense against level 15+ casters (called for by the OP), the power differential is simply too large by that point in the game.

What is this forge you're talking about? Even if it's not relevant to the discussion I'm curious.

In D&D when you are talking about this sort of thing, every city is equidistant without Epic-level defenses. In fact, short of spending tons of money warding entire cities non-epic, every house in every city is equidistant from each other. So if we're talking about beings with Plane Shift and Teleport interfering, then pretty much every city is screwed short of going to some extreme equilibrium that's unrecognizable from the standard campaign world.

Or you Planar Bind a Hound Archon and give it a few Portable Hole's. You can move a whole army to anywhere on the same plane in a day or two. If you don't get why this changes warfare then, well I can't help you.

To say nothing of Teleport, Cloudkill, Teleport and numerous variations.

Devastating a city is ridiculously easy in D&D.

Pickford

2013-12-12, 12:49 AM

Or you Planar Bind a Hound Archon and give it a few Portable Hole's. You can move a whole army to anywhere on the same plane in a day or two. If you don't get why this changes warfare then, well I can't help you.

They'd suffocate, it would take more than 3 rounds to load the entire army. Wouldn't it?

Preventing their destruction is as simple as having an Ice Assassin of a Solar with Tenacious Magic: Permanency be the one to make them permanent. Leaving that aside, destroying the circles does nothing much at all as the circle can be back up again in ten minutes. And then there is actually little things like security.

Can we pick something possible, you know, something that hair/nails to put into an Ice Assassin sculpture?

It could be back up...assuming there's someone to put it back up (presumably in a teleporting war, the first targets are the level 17th casters and/or their spell books)

Security vs wizards? Surely you jest sir!

This isn't a real concern because once the idea spreads all you need to make a TC is an eleventh level Warlock.

What Invocation is it you're thinking of?

AMFV:

Firstly a war wizard would never wear robes

Any world where a war wizard doesn't wear robes isn't a world I want to annihilate entire cities in.

Augmental:

Because the city guard is torturing and murdering spellcasters and he wants to put a stop to it?

And hypothetical wizard finds this out...how? Also, why is murdering wizards, the most notoriously careless with the lives of the innocent in any D&D universe, a bad thing? I'd think it was standard practice.

Drachasor

2013-12-12, 01:05 AM

They'd suffocate, it would take more than 3 rounds to load the entire army. Wouldn't it?

They can breathe before the portable hole is closed. Then they can hold their breath for plenty of rounds before it is open again. Assuming no magic to maintain an air supply.

It would be a bit better if a portable hole was larger, of course. It really is a tiny space.

Kraken

2013-12-12, 01:23 AM

why is murdering wizards, the most notoriously careless with the lives of the innocent in any D&D universe, a bad thing? I'd think it was standard practice.

Missing blue text?

Drachasor

2013-12-12, 01:26 AM

Missing blue text?

No, I think he just meant "adventurers."

Augmental

2013-12-12, 01:41 AM

And hypothetical wizard finds this out...how?

A city that tortures and murders any and all spellcasters that dare step inside would likely gain a fair bit of notoriety.

Also, why is murdering wizards, the most notoriously careless with the lives of the innocent in any D&D universe, a bad thing? I'd think it was standard practice.

Even if murdering any spellcaster (not just wizards) who steps inside the city isn't an evil act (which it most certainly is), the wizard who hears about these executions disagrees.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-12, 02:06 AM

I forgot about the prereq bit. Anyhow, if magic items are good, they can certainly buy them and be equipped. And their NPCs would be properly equipped. I honestly don't see how they could be. Dealing in magic items means dealing with casters, period. Unless a select few members of the government makes these dealings and the only way for the rest of the city to access them is through these few, magic items simply won't be readily available. Having to go through such a narrow choke point also represents a serious weakness in the cities defenses. Subvert those few people and suddenly the city's access to magic items can be cut off or sprinkled with cursed items or otherwise sabotaged.

That's a supposition by the OP, not confirmed as true. But if they can't use magic items, supernatural powers, or spell-likes, then I agree they are completely dependent on outside help.Absent any information to the contrary we must assume that it is correct. In either case while the city in his DM's game may or may not be anti-magic or anti-caster the hypothetical city he posited for discussion is anti-magic.

It's cute that you think they'd have to kill witnesses. There are at the very least dozens of alternatives in D&D, assuming you didn't avoid witnesses altogether. As for morale, like any op in a semi-hostile nation, the focus would be on opposing the EVIL forces. Though, for GOOD characters, helping to protect the innocent (however misguided) is a pretty big deal too. I didn't say they had to kill them, only pointed out that it wouldn't be a viable option for most of them because they would morally object. I'm all to well aware that there are other, sometimes better, options most of the time.

As for the comment about covert operatives; such operatives aren't operating for the good of the people of the nation they're operating in, they're doing it for the good of their own people back home. As I said, this city has virtually nothing to offer outside interests, therefore such operatives have no reason to be there. This brings us back to those who do good for its own sake. They have every reason to be discouraged since the people they're trying to help don't want their help.

As for wards, as long as they are concealed so they can't be seen, then they'd work just as well. Sure, the guards might wonder why these enemies just can't make it past the gates, but that won't stop them from acting.LoE is necessary for most magical effects. If they're concealed well enough to be difficult to find then their effectiveness is diminished and wards that stop creatures cold are powerful and often expensive. As for the guards, they're ill-equipped to even identify enemies much less do anything about them.

Not so different from many situations in the Cold War. They are potentially a powerful enemy asset, and so you have to act to prevent the enemy from just taking it. That's just it; it's not an asset but a target. Preventing the enemy's acquisition of the city is the whole point.

If an foreign good power takes over, I'd hardly called the city "screwed." They'd probably benefit quite a lot from it. Fair to say the political environment is not going to be so stable. Political unrest is something to be avoided and the maintenance of independence is necessary to still consider it the same city. Once occupied by a greater power the people will simply have to adapt to magic as they'll be completely unable to dislodge them without becoming them.

To be fair, even if it had magic items and casters, there are not many defenses against magic without epic spells. Sad fact, but D&D spell lists are sorely lacking here. That's simply not true. Virtually every spell has a counter in another spell and long-term abjurations and permanent wards are remarkably effective at offering protection to the important areas necessary to maintain the safety of VIP's and sensitive targets.[/QUOTE]

AMFV

2013-12-12, 02:38 AM

They'd suffocate, it would take more than 3 rounds to load the entire army. Wouldn't it?

Helms of Underwater action could easily handle that, although I think it's better to use small strike teams in any case. Since the army would vulnerable on unloading.

Then you can use a TC for large scale transportation.

It could be back up...assuming there's someone to put it back up (presumably in a teleporting war, the first targets are the level 17th casters and/or their spell books)

How do you find them? They've got defenses against divinations, unlike the hypothetical city.

What Invocation is it you're thinking of?

Deceive items, they can make magic items that create such things.

Any world where a war wizard doesn't wear robes isn't a world I want to annihilate entire cities in.

Well then you don't want to be in a world where war wizards are smart.

Augmental:

And hypothetical wizard finds this out...how? Also, why is murdering wizards, the most notoriously careless with the lives of the innocent in any D&D universe, a bad thing? I'd think it was standard practice.

Divinations. Wizards can be good and not careless with the lives of the innocent, they're completely individuals and killing individuals based on their chosen profession is probably a negative.

The point being that if there is direct confrontation, the city loses, the only way that this hypothetical city can survive is if it avoids confrontation.

Coidzor

2013-12-12, 02:39 AM

And hypothetical wizard finds this out...how?

Also, why is murdering wizards, the most notoriously careless with the lives of the innocent in any D&D universe, a bad thing? I'd think it was standard practice.

1. Wizard.

2. That kind of thing from an overtly anti-magic regime would probably just be common knowledge rather than something they tried to keep secret.

3. Ask people who take the promotion of magic seriously, from Elminster and Company to clerics of, I don't know, Boccob or something.

Pickford

2013-12-12, 11:55 PM

Drachasor:

They can breathe before the portable hole is closed. Then they can hold their breath for plenty of rounds before it is open again. Assuming no magic to maintain an air supply.

It would be a bit better if a portable hole was larger, of course. It really is a tiny space.

Hrm, I suppose, but you'd have a very limited army size.

Augmental: It's only murder if it's not a crime to use magic in that society and it's not done by the state as a matter of enforcing the laws. Then it's just the state executing a criminal. Again, it might be common knowledge that magic use is a crime there, but then, if wizards routinely attempt vigilante justice as you are positing, it would seem to be a logical decision. Otherwise your thoroughfares would be clogged with the fallout of a thousand mad wizards at war with one another.

AMFV:

Helms of Underwater action could easily handle that, although I think it's better to use small strike teams in any case. Since the army would vulnerable on unloading.

Then you can use a TC for large scale transportation.

Agreed, I don't think this is anywhere near the least expensive option, transporting maybe 20 (probably at the top end) troops is now costing as much as hiring a few thousand. A man at arms costs 3 sp per day, for the same price as just the portable hole (10,000gp) we could hire around 1000 soldiers for over a month of warfare. (Best part, if they die you can recoup the costs!)

Deceive items, they can make magic items that create such things.

Hrm deceive item is at level 4...I think upon review it was actually Imbue Item, but that's at level 12 (not 11), so it's probably just a typo.

Divinations. Wizards can be good and not careless with the lives of the innocent, they're completely individuals and killing individuals based on their chosen profession is probably a negative.

The point being that if there is direct confrontation, the city loses, the only way that this hypothetical city can survive is if it avoids confrontation.

Please, divinations don't tell you squat unless you already know what to look for. And the ones that Wizards have access to are unreliable, at best unless it's for in combat use.

Any wizard who attempted to enter would be placing themselves at risk.

3. Ask people who take the promotion of magic seriously, from Elminster and Company to clerics of, I don't know, Boccob or something.

And yet, despite them, places like Athkatla co-exist in the same universe unmaligned.

Augmental

2013-12-13, 12:16 AM

Augmental: It's only murder if it's not a crime to use magic in that society and it's not done by the state as a matter of enforcing the laws. Then it's just the state executing a criminal. Again, it might be common knowledge that magic use is a crime there, but then, if wizards routinely attempt vigilante justice as you are positing, it would seem to be a logical decision. Otherwise your thoroughfares would be clogged with the fallout of a thousand mad wizards at war with one another.

And you think that the hypothetical wizard would agree that "executing" casters just for being casters is a logical and just decision? Because I think he'd be pretty pissed.

Vhaidara

2013-12-13, 12:30 AM

And yet, despite them, places like Athkatla co-exist in the same universe unmaligned.

Yes, but Athkatla isn't entirely anti-magic/caster. They do have the Cowled Wizards.

Telok

2013-12-13, 03:29 AM

As amusing as this is how about trying to approach the issue from a different direction.

How do you create such a city in the first place? (beyond DM fiat)

In the real world cities either "just happen" around some natural resouce or trading spot, or someone rich and powerful decrees that there will be a city and starts spending money. Any anti-caster population with a valuable resource (or valuable real estate) is going to fall to some dragon or lich or band of ogre magi that wants it. It won't matter which, powerful people and things will want what they have and magic vs. no magic will only end one way. Plus said take-over will happen pretty early on while there aren't many people or fifty foot high city walls with dozens of ballista on them. So that leaves us with someone powerful decreeing that there will be an anti-caster city and spending money.

Who would do sich a thing? Adventurers. Rich, retired, magic hating, adventurers. So we assume five non-caster adventurers of level 20 want to build an anti-caster city. What happens?

Drachasor

2013-12-13, 04:22 AM

I honestly don't see how they could be. Dealing in magic items means dealing with casters, period. Unless a select few members of the government makes these dealings and the only way for the rest of the city to access them is through these few, magic items simply won't be readily available. Having to go through such a narrow choke point also represents a serious weakness in the cities defenses. Subvert those few people and suddenly the city's access to magic items can be cut off or sprinkled with cursed items or otherwise sabotaged.

Technically it means dealing with merchants. Just look at the variable ways Amish communities adapt to the modern world. Heck, it is not entirely impossible the city doesn't have a magic user or two for the sake of necessity; Looked down upon and scorned perhaps, but recognized as useful. Though I think that possibility breaks the premise (whereas magic items do not).

Absent any information to the contrary we must assume that it is correct. In either case while the city in his DM's game may or may not be anti-magic or anti-caster the hypothetical city he posited for discussion is anti-magic.

Guesses based on slight evidence are not something we assume to be true. It is a guess by the OP and nothing more.

I didn't say they had to kill them, only pointed out that it wouldn't be a viable option for most of them because they would morally object. I'm all to well aware that there are other, sometimes better, options most of the time.

Always better options with magic. ALWAYS.

As for the comment about covert operatives; such operatives aren't operating for the good of the people of the nation they're operating in, they're doing it for the good of their own people back home. As I said, this city has virtually nothing to offer outside interests, therefore such operatives have no reason to be there. This brings us back to those who do good for its own sake. They have every reason to be discouraged since the people they're trying to help don't want their help.

Operatives often end up caring for the people around them. It's a hazard of the job, so to speak. Certainly good-aligned operatives would be expected to care. That's what it means to be GOOD.

Good characters provide help even if spat upon. Again, they sacrifice of themselves for others. You think a good character can sit back and watch people suffer and burn without doing anything just because they won't be thanked for interfering? That is not how good works. The situation isn't ideal, but there are innocent to protect.

Now, Good characters aren't necessarily going to be supporting the city to maintain its current policies. They probably won't, but again, those policies are bad for the city.

LoE is necessary for most magical effects. If they're concealed well enough to be difficult to find then their effectiveness is diminished and wards that stop creatures cold are powerful and often expensive. As for the guards, they're ill-equipped to even identify enemies much less do anything about them.

Line of Effect, sure, but invisible things have Line of Effect and can't be seen. Other illusions as well. Now, SOME wards like Symbols aren't so easily concealed, but there are plenty that are.

That said, warding isn't that great in Core certainly, and isn't all that great in general. In a way, everyone is screwed.

That's just it; it's not an asset but a target. Preventing the enemy's acquisition of the city is the whole point.

It's certainly at least a potential asset.

Political unrest is something to be avoided and the maintenance of independence is necessary to still consider it the same city. Once occupied by a greater power the people will simply have to adapt to magic as they'll be completely unable to dislodge them without becoming them.

Absurd. To consider it the same country, perhaps, but not the same city. It's certainly still the same city even if its political structure changes. Don't confuse changes TO a city for a city ceasing to exist.

And turning the city is at least theoretically possible. "Occupied by a greater power" is a possibility, but not a certain conclusion. At least in the classic sense of "occupied."

Point is, within a first order approximation, the situation in the city is actually going to be very complicated with outside influences. Too complicated to immediately conclude it is screwed. With those outside forces it is very unlikely to be a master of its own destiny, but that and screwed aren't the same.

That's simply not true. Virtually every spell has a counter in another spell and long-term abjurations and permanent wards are remarkably effective at offering protection to the important areas necessary to maintain the safety of VIP's and sensitive targets.

Sadly it is true. Consider a size that's just one square mile. THIS IS SMALL. It's basically impossible to protect such an area in Core without tremendous expense. Forbiddance is one of the best spells for this as it blocks Teleport. It's just a 60ft cube/level. At level 20, that's 388 castings to cover this tiny city (more of a village really). That's over 12 million gold (1500gp per casting, 1500gp per 60 foot cube). And you can STILL teleport right above the city and cast cloudkill into it. It also has some unpleasant side effects against anyone not of your alignment.

Dimensional Lock is cheaper, in a sense, since you don't make it permanent. However, it is much smaller area (20 ft radius), and only lasts 1 day/level. Impractical to apply to a city.

Heck, Shadows can fly and pass through 5ft of solid objects. RAW there's no particular reason why they shouldn't have killed of most life. They are really hard to stop.

Now you can claim precognitive cheese to an extent. However, even Contact Other Plane allows for entities not being able to answer questions. It only gives a one-word true answer if the question can be answer that way, which isn't true of questions it can't answer. I think the PHB entry is more explicit, but I don't recall. And of course, answers can be blocked at DM discretion. So a Binary Search of the Future (BSF) is far from full-proof, but it can work if the DM wants it to.*

It is honestly hard to provide reasonable protection to a city from 9th level characters, to say nothing of higher level ones. So it is a bit objectionable to say you need a high level caster to defend the city, when a high level caster can't actually defend it. Tons of hypothetical enemies will devastate the city and population before a caster can do anything.

Of course, a DM can houserule new spells and options to cover this.

*The Trippyverse is one where BSF works, I believe -- correct me if I am wrong, Trippy -- but BSF working is like the Axiom of Choice in Math. Allowing it to work is consistent with the rules. Disallowing it to work is also consistent with the rules.

Coidzor

2013-12-13, 03:30 PM

Drachasor

2013-12-13, 03:45 PM

Good question.

Well, I imagine the main reason it exists is because all the things people bringing up in this thread aren't as common in this game world as people assume. And this place is in some well-protected/safe corner of the world.

Alternatively, you could have them enjoying the benefits of region-wide epic-level spell protections. They might not even be aware of it.

Coidzor

2013-12-13, 03:51 PM

Drachasor

2013-12-13, 03:58 PM

It might not have been clear from my earlier objections, but I find that a little bit too boring and ends the thinking far too quickly. :smalltongue:

Such is life, sometimes.

Perhaps they already made a deal with the Devil? They do a yearly sacrifice. That's why they hate magic.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-14, 12:49 AM

Technically it means dealing with merchants. Just look at the variable ways Amish communities adapt to the modern world. Heck, it is not entirely impossible the city doesn't have a magic user or two for the sake of necessity; Looked down upon and scorned perhaps, but recognized as useful. Though I think that possibility breaks the premise (whereas magic items do not).The magic items that matter for the situation at hand either require being able to reliably hit dc 20 on a UMD check, something that can't be reliably done at low level without serious optimization, or that you be a spell caster. The very best defenses against magic are mostly forms of wondrous architecture which is always difficult or impossible to transport and would require powerful spell casters to enter the city to make them in the first place.

Weapons and armor are for when you've already identified and located the problem and most wondrous items are more items of utility and convenience while the few defensive items available don't generally work on more than one person at a time.

Guesses based on slight evidence are not something we assume to be true. It is a guess by the OP and nothing more. For his actual campaign, yes. That's not what we're discussing. We're discussing a hypothetical city that the OP said was populated by an anti-magical society. Even if it was anti-caster instead of anti-magic, my response to the previous quote block holds.

Always better options with magic. ALWAYS. Not always. There are only a few spells that can alter a subject's memory. Anything else just amounts to flashy versions of mundane methods of silencing a witness or transmutations that may as well be killing the subject. If you're witnessed by someone you don't already have leverage over you have to take them captive until you get leverage or you eliminate them. If they're someone for whom there is no leverage to be had, an overall-honest patriot with no family for example, you're left with modifying their memory, serious magic that's not broadly available, or killing them (or subjecting them to some equally dire fate) on the spot.

Operatives often end up caring for the people around them. It's a hazard of the job, so to speak. Certainly good-aligned operatives would be expected to care. That's what it means to be GOOD.Even so, that is always secondary to the cause. Operatives in a city are -not- usually there for the sake of the city itself. They're there because there's either something in the city that their agency wants or, in a capital or city-state, to prevent or instigate changes in the neutral (as in enemy-ally neutrality) government's policy. Care that develops for individuals usually results in attempts to expatriate those individuals, compromise of the operative when they reveal themselves to the person(s) they care for, or heartache when circumstances (or superiors) demand that the relationship end. For care for the people to develop requires long-term assignment. This is where the horrible drain on morale that being hated for what you are, your ideas, and all that you represent by the majority of the populace becomes an issue.

Good characters provide help even if spat upon. Again, they sacrifice of themselves for others. You think a good character can sit back and watch people suffer and burn without doing anything just because they won't be thanked for interfering? That is not how good works. The situation isn't ideal, but there are innocent to protect.Who's suffering? Magic isn't necessary for generating the essentials for survival. It's only necessary to defend against outside threats. Indeed, without a fair amount of optimization it's not even -capable- of supporting a city's populace without a much higher than normal density of magic users barring the creation of create food and water traps. We discussed the primary issue with that above.

Of the two most likely organizations to try and take over the city covertly, illithid enclaves and baatezu, the illithids don't care one way or the other about the cattle except to munch on one twice a month, they're more interested in experimenting with different types and methods of government. The people are more likely to be simply neglected than oppressed or abused. The baatezu are smart enough to work on turning the city lawful before they start work on turning it evil. By the time any outside force of good realizes what's going on the enemy is already firmly entrenched and has disguised agents (read; devils) on the look out for good creatures that could pose a threat to their further machinations.

Also, there's a difference between not being thanked for helping in the short term and being despised for trying to change an entire people's way of life, and they would have to change it because simply maintaining the status quo is utterly untenable. Secret wars are entertaining but if one side has a win condition and the other doesn't the former will win every time. Not offering thanks to someone that's helped you once is a bit rude but they can deal if they're not too thin-skinned. Working in the long-term on behalf of a people that despise you, however, is constantly draining. Enough so that, for mortals at least, it can quickly become difficult to continue to care. The immortals can live with it for generations but they have to deal with not only the morale issue but also the mortals that have been successfully corrupted by their immortal foes. Celestials won't get involved unless fiends already are and even then they're outnumbered; demons being infinite* and devils being produced from mortal souls in hell as regularly as cheap statuary from concrete in a factory while there is no equivalence for either of these in the upper planes.

Now, Good characters aren't necessarily going to be supporting the city to maintain its current policies. They probably won't, but again, those policies are bad for the city. This, at least, we can agree on. Attempting to defend the status quo is completely absurd.

Line of Effect, sure, but invisible things have Line of Effect and can't be seen. Other illusions as well. Now, SOME wards like Symbols aren't so easily concealed, but there are plenty that are.

That said, warding isn't that great in Core certainly, and isn't all that great in general. In a way, everyone is screwed.

A) Invisibility needs an object to target. It cannot be placed on other spell effects. It can work for wondrous architectures often enough but those are expensive and either must be built on site, taking no less than a day and often anywhere from several to weeks or even months, or are large enough that rendering them invisible is practically begging someone to run into them unless they're too far out of the way to matter.

B) Nobody said anything about being limited to core, but even there hallow and glyph of warding, As well as a number of others that are quite useful when they don't have to remain secret.

C) Warding isn't supposed to be spread across the entire city any more than there should be heavily armed soldiers at every street crossing. Warding is placed at perimeter crossings and in sensitive locations as well as places used to process prisoners. It is supplemented by a network of trained personnel who have specialized equipment and know what to look for.

It's certainly at least a potential asset. Highly unlikely. We've already established that it's out of the way, which precludes strategic importance, that it doesn't have anything of particular value, which precludes economic importance, and that its people are magically useless, which precludes magical importance. How could it be useful as an asset for anything other than being a place to gather conscripts?

Absurd. To consider it the same country, perhaps, but not the same city. It's certainly still the same city even if its political structure changes. Don't confuse changes TO a city for a city ceasing to exist. If you change the thing that grants a city its identity then even if the people remain and the name is not changed, it's no longer the same city. The same can be said of a city whose entire political landscape has been upended. Don't confuse the name of a thing with its essence.

And turning the city is at least theoretically possible. "Occupied by a greater power" is a possibility, but not a certain conclusion. At least in the classic sense of "occupied."With its defenses being nil and its status quo being impossible to maintain in the long-term the only way it doesn't end up occupied in one sense or another is if its leaders can be convinced that the no-magic policy is as dangerous as it actually is and they abandon such madness.

Point is, within a first order approximation, the situation in the city is actually going to be very complicated with outside influences. Too complicated to immediately conclude it is screwed. With those outside forces it is very unlikely to be a master of its own destiny, but that and screwed aren't the same. Bottom line, the city cannot remain as it is and it's far more likely to fall to evil forces than to be saved from itself by the forces of good. It's not screwed in the sense of being doomed to be sacked and razed but it -is- far more likely than not to be turned into a horrible place to live if for no other reason than the fact it's highly likely to become a battleground for good and evil magical forces operating in secret to decide its fate; a fight that good has a decided disadvantage in as it stands.

Sadly it is true. Consider a size that's just one square mile. THIS IS SMALL. It's basically impossible to protect such an area in Core without tremendous expense. Forbiddance is one of the best spells for this as it blocks Teleport. It's just a 60ft cube/level. At level 20, that's 388 castings to cover this tiny city (more of a village really). That's over 12 million gold (1500gp per casting, 1500gp per 60 foot cube). And you can STILL teleport right above the city and cast cloudkill into it. It also has some unpleasant side effects against anyone not of your alignment.

Dimensional Lock is cheaper, in a sense, since you don't make it permanent. However, it is much smaller area (20 ft radius), and only lasts 1 day/level. Impractical to apply to a city.

Heck, Shadows can fly and pass through 5ft of solid objects. RAW there's no particular reason why they shouldn't have killed of most life. They are really hard to stop.

You have some odd ideas about security. Yes, completely warding an entire square mile is absurdly expensive (though not impossible as you, yourself, have shown). It's also completely unnecessary except in the strangest of circumstances.

Let's run with your example of warding a village against an incursion of shadows.

The town hall or local church, or even both, can be warded with hallow keyed to death ward. The shadow's strength draining ability cannot function on anyone in the warded area. The area is an 80ft diameter circle. This is enough for over 200 people to each get their own 5ft square. If they're willing to crowd in you can get over 400 and still have a little room though it won't be very comfortable. This number rises -dramatically- if you start thinking in three dimensions. Over the course of a number of days, a 6th level cleric can render them all to dust with his turning. With a +2 charisma mod he'll be able to destroy 5 shadows on each attempt and has 5 attempts a day. That's 25 shadows a day. It would be a harrowing day for the villagers but it's certainly not a doomsday event. The cost is only 5,000gp annually.

As long as you're strategic with your warding it's far from impossible to protect against a whole host of potential problems even across a fairly large area.

It is honestly hard to provide reasonable protection to a city from 9th level characters, to say nothing of higher level ones. So it is a bit objectionable to say you need a high level caster to defend the city, when a high level caster can't actually defend it. Tons of hypothetical enemies will devastate the city and population before a caster can do anything.

Of course, a DM can houserule new spells and options to cover this.

You seem to have misunderstood what is meant by protecting the city. You can't absolutely protect every living soul in the city from even mundane threats with anything less than epic magic. That's not a realistic expectation though. It's only necessary to ward every square inch if what you're defending against is a blaster using a recursive greater arcane fusion loop to level the entire city in a round or a mad villain trying to call down an apocalypse from the sky.

Much more reasonably, you -can- ward important buildings with forbiddance (preferably cast by a lawful good cleric) and give the password to those who would properly have business there; blocking anyone who would teleport into the place altogether and necessitating a password for those who would cross the threshold manually -after- they get past any sentries. This alone could be used to protect VIP's from simple scry and die. Combined with glyph of warding at each entrance this makes for a fairly secure building as long as you have someone or something to reset the glyphs after they're expended.

This is just one example of what skillfully placed wards can do without even getting into wondrous architecture or properly equipped and trained security forces.

Now you can claim precognitive cheese to an extent. However, even Contact Other Plane allows for entities not being able to answer questions. It only gives a one-word true answer if the question can be answer that way, which isn't true of questions it can't answer. I think the PHB entry is more explicit, but I don't recall. And of course, answers can be blocked at DM discretion. So a Binary Search of the Future (BSF) is far from full-proof, but it can work if the DM wants it to.*

*The Trippyverse is one where BSF works, I believe -- correct me if I am wrong, Trippy -- but BSF working is like the Axiom of Choice in Math. Allowing it to work is consistent with the rules. Disallowing it to work is also consistent with the rules.

I moved this because it's a separate issue altogether. If one carefully examines what the gods actually know under the rules then BSF, as you call it, doesn't work at all. Even collectively the gods don't have a clear and complete view of the future and only greater gods have any ability to see the future at all. CoP and other divinations are excellent at assessing the current situation and allowing an intelligent creature to make reasonably accurate predictions by extrapolating the information gathered but high precision future gazing simply isn't possible.

*Before another ridiculous infinity discussion gets started, while technically all outsiders should be of infinite number, it's made clear by manual of the planes and other sources that demons are the biggest infinity and logic dictates that devils are still a larger infinity than celestials.

Telok

2013-12-14, 03:13 AM

Well, I imagine the main reason it exists is because all the things people bringing up in this thread aren't as common in this game world as people assume. And this place is in some well-protected/safe corner of the world.

Alternatively, you could have them enjoying the benefits of region-wide epic-level spell protections. They might not even be aware of it.

What I was talking about isn't "How does such a city survive?" What I was wondering is "How does such a city begin?"

A city such as this requires a culture of hating magic users. The majority of people in the city must hate magic users so much that they not only pass and enfore laws against such things, but also hunt and persecute them.
The city in question (or at least the people of authority (guards, nobles, royalty, etc)) hate magic users of all kinds. Even asking about them in a non-negative way is liable to get you glared at and put on the local **** list. In this city saying "My buddy here has Ghoul Fever, where's the nearest cleric so he can be cured?" will get you blacklisted and discriminated against.

One way for such a city to start is for there to be a normal city that experiences a massive backlash against magic users for the magic that they are using. This sort of hatred doesn't happen just because the only local magic users are necromancers and cultists of Nurgle, that just makes people want paladins and good aligned casters so that they aren't horribly dismembered by things that the can't fight. Someone had to tell people that all magic is bad and prove it many times over a period of years. By the supposition of the posters here who advocate outside forces or covert magical agents of good that sort of thing won't happen. It can't happen because before that the outside forces and covert good magic would not have been covert or unknown. With no reason to hide the good aligned magic users would have been publicly helping people and there would have been no backlash against them. The only way for a normal D&D city to switch to an anti-caster regime would be through a massive and long lasting conspiracy to control the city. Which directly leads to devils, evil wizards, mind flayers, or other supernatural control from behind the scenes. Such a city isn't anti-caster, the population is anti-caster because they are being controlled (and indirectly defended by) magic using people or monsters. Plus, how in heck do non-casters run out of town a wizard with dread wraith (with a ghost touch dagger that has permanent Darkness on it) as a door guard and a nightmare as a pet?

The other way would be for a group of people who are already anti-caster to try and found a city. In real life this would be like a group of people who are anti-refrigeration trying to found a city. With enough money you can build the thing, but who wants to live there (air conditioners are a form of refrigeration)? But in D&D land it is doable, primarily through the ignorance of the commoners and Leadership style abilities. The problem is what happens when such a city becomes big enough to stop being a joke and start being important. How does such a city deal with Hellwasp swarms, Wererats, or rogue Invisible Stalkers? How can the people be sure that the city guard isn't a bunch of Dopplegangers or that the heir to the throne hasn't been replaced by a Night Hag? The original, powerful, founders of the city can help, usually. But they won't always be around, or forever.

In short, how does a city that kills and persecutes all magic users get started and continue to exist as anything other than a worthless backwater without DM fiat?

Drachasor

2013-12-14, 05:33 AM

TuggyNE

2013-12-14, 05:49 AM

Drachasor

2013-12-14, 05:58 AM

Defense is harder than attacking, because you must hold all defended locations continually, while an attacker must only successfully strike one, once. Combine that with the additional hindrances the city deliberately places on any effective defenders that might come, and the simple observation that good characters do not have unlimited resources and have other more important responsibilities in cities that do not outright work against them at every turn, and it's not hard to see that even the most well-meaning Wizard or Cleric might reasonably give them up as a lost cause, if they ever had time to consider their peril to begin with. Most of the time, you defend the areas you're loyal to, and then perhaps those who ask for your help; defending, against their wishes and in direct despite of their culture, some random city that is extremely fragile and will continue to need assistance for the rest of forever, is not a high priority, and will usually be completely impractical.

The rest of the world needs saving too, and will be a lot easier and more rewarding in just about every way.

And the standard of "anyone can sneak in and attack the city so defense isn't worthwhile for outside good characters"...well, that's true of ALL CITIES as I already pointed out. I think it is more than a bit unfair to only apply defense difficulties to this one city without considering how impossible D&D makes defending any city.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-14, 05:59 AM

Hard to take your post seriously, Kelb. You act like a good character has no reason to be worried about the citizens of this city, then turn around and say it will be taken over/destroyed by evil forces. In fact, you act like evil taking over is obviously going to happen, yet somehow no good character could ever figure it that risk until afterwards. Bit of a disconnect there.A -reasonable- character has every reason to be concerned. However, lone individuals working independently have very little chance of accomplishing much of anything. Even an organized effort that must remain secret is fighting an uphill battle against the enemy, the city itself, and the morale of their own people. Only an open effort to educate the people of their folly and the resultant policy changes will have any real chance of keeping the city from falling. That or occupation and forced change that is maintained long enough for most of the citizenry to no longer care which will likely end with an uprising by the portion that still do but only after the rebels accept the reality that only magic can beat magic.

And strategically warding locations in a city simply doesn't defend it. Attacks on citizens from a huge, huge array of enemies can happen far to fast to make use of strategic locations. With flight and teleport, it is simply to easy to start devastating a city population in any number of ways. Any city is screwed. Where are you getting your numbers? The number of casters per capita that are even capable of teleporting is pitifully low. Most creatures that can teleport simply don't organize into any serious numbers, either. The same is true of flyers. Unless this city happens to be in close proximity to an abeil colony or a formian hive with a gate to mechanus in the middle you're grossly overestimating the likelihood of a mass invasion by such beings.

If a planar breach to the abyss should happen to open within a few miles of the place then yeah, virtually any place is completely ****ed but the odds of that happening are exactly what the DM sets them to since they don't actually have any RAW frequency. Same is true of bleeds and rifts.

Drachasor

2013-12-14, 06:01 AM

What I was talking about isn't "How does such a city survive?" What I was wondering is "How does such a city begin?"

A city such as this requires a culture of hating magic users. The majority of people in the city must hate magic users so much that they not only pass and enfore laws against such things, but also hunt and persecute them. In this city saying "My buddy here has Ghoul Fever, where's the nearest cleric so he can be cured?" will get you blacklisted and discriminated against.

Irrational beliefs are depressingly common in the real world. There are literally hundreds or more possible explanations for how this city got theirs.

One way for such a city to start is for there to be a normal city that experiences a massive backlash against magic users for the magic that they are using. This sort of hatred doesn't happen just because the only local magic users are necromancers and cultists of Nurgle, that just makes people want paladins and good aligned casters so that they aren't horribly dismembered by things that the can't fight. Someone had to tell people that all magic is bad and prove it many times over a period of years. By the supposition of the posters here who advocate outside forces or covert magical agents of good that sort of thing won't happen. It can't happen because before that the outside forces and covert good magic would not have been covert or unknown. With no reason to hide the good aligned magic users would have been publicly helping people and there would have been no backlash against them. The only way for a normal D&D city to switch to an anti-caster regime would be through a massive and long lasting conspiracy to control the city. Which directly leads to devils, evil wizards, mind flayers, or other supernatural control from behind the scenes. Such a city isn't anti-caster, the population is anti-caster because they are being controlled (and indirectly defended by) magic using people or monsters. Plus, how in heck do non-casters run out of town a wizard with dread wraith (with a ghost touch dagger that has permanent Darkness on it) as a door guard and a nightmare as a pet?

The other way would be for a group of people who are already anti-caster to try and found a city. In real life this would be like a group of people who are anti-refrigeration trying to found a city. With enough money you can build the thing, but who wants to live there (air conditioners are a form of refrigeration)? But in D&D land it is doable, primarily through the ignorance of the commoners and Leadership style abilities. The problem is what happens when such a city becomes big enough to stop being a joke and start being important. How does such a city deal with Hellwasp swarms, Wererats, or rogue Invisible Stalkers? How can the people be sure that the city guard isn't a bunch of Dopplegangers or that the heir to the throne hasn't been replaced by a Night Hag? The original, powerful, founders of the city can help, usually. But they won't always be around, or forever.

In short, how does a city that kills and persecutes all magic users get started and continue to exist as anything other than a worthless backwater without DM fiat?

Like I've said, there are many basic things that will screw over a city with standard magic too. And no one has argued this isn't a "worthless backwater" city, so to speak.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-12-14, 06:03 AM

Drachasor

2013-12-14, 06:08 AM

A -reasonable- character has every reason to be concerned. However, lone individuals working independently have very little chance of accomplishing much of anything. Even an organized effort that must remain secret is fighting an uphill battle against the enemy, the city itself, and the morale of their own people. Only an open effort to educate the people of their folly and the resultant policy changes will have any real chance of keeping the city from falling. That or occupation and forced change that is maintained long enough for most of the citizenry to no longer care which will likely end with an uprising by the portion that still do but only after the rebels accept the reality that only magic can beat magic.

If it doesn't remain secret on both sides, then they'll just move in visible forces. It's also just as hard for evil if they stay secret, generally speaking. Since there isn't any obvious evil in this city, it is obvious that any such actions are being kept secret.

It isn't like people who are being mind controlled are hard to spot with Detect Magic or Arcane Sight.

Where are you getting your numbers? The number of casters per capita that are even capable of teleporting is pitifully low. Most creatures that can teleport simply don't organize into any serious numbers, either. The same is true of flyers. Unless this city happens to be in close proximity to an abeil colony or a formian hive with a gate to mechanus in the middle you're grossly overestimating the likelihood of a mass invasion by such beings.

If a planar breach to the abyss should happen to open within a few miles of the place then yeah, virtually any place is completely ****ed but the odds of that happening are exactly what the DM sets them to since they don't actually have any RAW frequency. Same is true of bleeds and rifts.

You just need one caster who can teleport or one shadow to devastate a city. That's it. You don't need an army. That's the whole point.

Who said "anyone"? My chief concern is, and ever will be, the baatezu. Even amongst one of their weakest ranks, the imp, there's natural invisibility and shapechanging that they can use at will. It's only fortunate that they're just as interested in changing hearts and minds as the heroes or everyone really would be as screwed as you suggest.

And what it can do is pretty limited and not necessarily hard to detect.

AMFV

2013-12-14, 06:24 AM

Who said "anyone"? My chief concern is, and ever will be, the baatezu. Even amongst one of their weakest ranks, the imp, there's natural invisibility and shapechanging that they can use at will. It's only fortunate that they're just as interested in changing hearts and minds as the heroes or everyone really would be as screwed as you suggest.

The problem is that the forces of hell rarely act in true cohesion, particularly over something like this, it's likely that they would fight each other rather than let one of the other devils get the souls.

TuggyNE

2013-12-14, 06:36 AM

And the standard of "anyone can sneak in and attack the city so defense isn't worthwhile for outside good characters"...well, that's true of ALL CITIES as I already pointed out. I think it is more than a bit unfair to only apply defense difficulties to this one city without considering how impossible D&D makes defending any city.

What? No, that's silly. Most cities are fine letting you, y'know, build magic infrastructure to defend them in various ways. See also Tippyverse for the most extreme tricks, but it doesn't take that much. Use spells to block teleporting, then use spells to bolster or replace the fortifications and prevent various sorts of attack vectors like flying or burrowing.

What I was getting at is, the attackers are not limited in any way. They are, by definition, hostile; they do not care about being lynched or refused service or arrested or yelled at or whatever else, they're already aggressive enough the city is going to try to kill them.

But the defenders are remarkably limited, since the city itself has no native magic users of note, and any outlanders or foreigners or whatever that do try to help (and that number will be substantially less than normally rallies to your average magic-using city, even leaving aside the lack of native defenders) will be crippled in their attempts to defend, either by being prevented from defending openly, or by forcibly imposing whatever measures they need. Either way, if and when an enemy attacks, they have not only the attackers to subdue, but also the city dwellers.

In short, the city is literally working against itself and any allies it might have. There is no possible way it will ever be as defensible, much less defended, as a city that lacks this bizarre prejudice. That's just not gonna happen.

Oh yeah, and most cities can count on alliances with neutral casters, or mildly good ones, or even not infrequently moderately evil. This one? Solely on the unwanted good graces of extremely good casters that have no direct stake in the city. Nice.

Like I've said, there are many basic things that will screw over a city with standard magic too. And no one has argued this isn't a "worthless backwater" city, so to speak.

It's a city. Cities are not backwaters. That's not what the term means.

Now it might, of course, be relatively low in strategic value, but if there's enough people living there to be a city, there's enough there to be worth considering for conquest. Otherwise, those people wouldn't live there. And when there's a city that's vastly less defensible, that's a tempting target.

If it doesn't remain secret on both sides, then they'll just move in visible forces. It's also just as hard for evil if they stay secret, generally speaking. Since there isn't any obvious evil in this city, it is obvious that any such actions are being kept secret.

Um. The question is about the long-term sustainability of this city, not whether there is an active assault currently in progress.

Obviously there is no fiendish army storming the walls, nor yet a lich cackling in his tower in the situation as was presented. That's not to say that the situation is internally consistent, because the whole point of the thread is to see whether it is or not! Don't beg the question.

You just need one caster who can teleport or one shadow to devastate a city. That's it. You don't need an army. That's the whole point.

Shadows can be blocked by hallow + death ward, Cleric alarms, and so forth. Teleport and friends can be disabled by forbiddance, etc. Nearly all attacks have some counter, but most such counters are magical.