Elan needs a new rapier!

[Brookshw]

The last time Elan lost his equipment good ol' Julio came through for him, but what will happen this time? Will Julio tragically fall and Elan inherit his current rapier? A suddenly quest to fix the rapier? Take Tarquin's dagger? I have no idea! Speculate, lack of info hasn't stopped us before!

[Bulldog Psion]

He'd better start carrying a golf bag full of rapiers. :smallbiggrin:

Still, it seems rather startling that a rapier with a history like that would be broken so casually. I mean, this is the rapier that was used to fight the Devil King of Dinosaur Island, isn't it? That sounds like rather a big deal to fall to a simple sunder.

So, I guess it's either going to be reforged, like the Greenhilt sword, or Elan takes Tarquin's dagger.

[Tiiba]

Plot damage in the hands of a bard? He could end the world with that, if he wanted to.

[Living Oxymoron]

Maybe Tarquin's whip?

[hoff]

Maybe Tarquin's whip?

Only if he finds an Indiana Jones hat

[Lexible]

The last time Elan lost his equipment good ol' Julio came through for him, but what will happen this time? Will Julio tragically fall and Elan inherit his current rapier?

I may be mistaken, just Scoundrél was most recently seen wielding a sabre, not a rapier.

[Gift Jeraff]

Accidentally posted this in the "rapid change" thread:

Elan owns two rapiers. His first rapier was stolen by Nale when he impersonated Elan. He got a second rapier from Julio Scoundrél as a gift. Then, he retrieved his original rapier when he defeated Nale and reclaimed all of his equipment.

HA!

[FujinAkari]

Elan will use his other rapier. He has had two for a very long time.

[Trillium]

Only if he finds an Indiana Jones hat

The cocroach may have left his one behind, but even if so, it's near the Gate...

[Agnostik]

Yeah, the rapier will be reforged and his then-already-dead father will start appearing to him as a ghost delivering cryptic messages.

[Nimin]

I may be mistaken, just Scoundrél was most recently seen wielding a sabre, not a rapier.

I wonder, are rapiers and sabre the same in the Ootsverse? Julio did mention that one of the Dashing Swordsman's skill relies on using rapiers.

[Onyavar]

I wonder, are rapiers and sabre the same in the Ootsverse? Julio did mention that one of the Dashing Swordsman's skill relies on using rapiers.

Yep. It has to be a rapier according to what Julio said before.

That said, there might be other weapons that can substitute the rapier, right?

It's been a while so I'm not sure what the rules are, but swashbucklers and duelists do get bonus feats with "light" sword weaponry, right? That includes daggers, short swords, rapiers and others? I guess that the dashing swordman is more restricted in that area.

Hm. Either Julio was just toying with Tarquin (my guess!), or Elan can also use sabres in the future. But my guess is that Elan will need to find himself a new rapier.

[Nimin]

Julio implied that his being one of the best fencers of all time was because the Dashing Swordsman allowed him to substitute his CHA for STR modifiers, if using a rapier.
That's why it sounds strange that he'd be facing T with a sabre.

[Bulldog Psion]

You're right, Dashing Swordsman does require a rapier. So, no dagger for Elan -- it's a rapier or bust, basically.

[iyaerP]

Elan's original original rapier was sundered by Belkar yelling too loudly way back at the start of the comic.

[CletusMusashi]

It's possible that Julio simply didn't want to explain every single word of the "Dashing Swordsman" benefits and started with the most basic, major, and fundamental advantage that manifests at first level.
In other words, maybe at higher levels the pun trick can be expanded to other weapons. Perhaps not all weapons, but apparently sabres are an option.

[Kish]

The cocroach
You know, for a second, I thought this was an insult directed at Tarquin or Xykon or Redcloak.

[Evandar]

As a sabreur, I think sabres are cooler than rapiers and hope he makes the switch. It's totally consistent with Dashing Swordsman rules if Rich The Giant says it is.

I feel weird calling him by his first name and Mr. Burlew sounds too ungroovy for someone that is hip and cool.

[137beth]

You're right, Dashing Swordsman does require a rapier. So, no dagger for Elan -- it's a rapier or bust, basically.
Since Dashing Swordsman is a class the Giant made up, and he hasn't written up the rules for it, there's no reason Elan would be required to continue using rapiers.
He already has a spare one, though, so there's also no reason for him to switch (yet).


Yeah, the rapier will be reforged and his then-already-dead father will start appearing to him as a ghost delivering cryptic messages.

Who did Tarquin swear to destroy?:smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

You know, for a second, I thought this was an insult directed at Tarquin or Xykon or Redcloak.

And I think confusing them for Tarquin, Xykon, or Redcloak is an insult to the roaches!

[Sir_Dr_D]

He'd better start carrying a golf bag full of rapiers. :smallbiggrin:

Still, it seems rather startling that a rapier with a history like that would be broken so casually. I mean, this is the rapier that was used to fight the Devil King of Dinosaur Island, isn't it? That sounds like rather a big deal to fall to a simple sunder.

So, I guess it's either going to be reforged, like the Greenhilt sword, or Elan takes Tarquin's dagger.

And the ironic thing is the Devil King of Dinosaur Island, could very well have been Tarquin. So that Rapier that was just sundered, could have had a long history.

[Souhiro]

Elan doesn't have the Source Text.

Also, this has been Elan's arc, I think that he deserves a little bit of art evolution. You know, using a weapon that is more than is drawn with more than a line !

But I dibs on Tarquin Dagger going to Belkar. If he survive... he's ALWAYS about to die :p

[Nimin]

Since Dashing Swordsman is a class the Giant made up, and he hasn't written up the rules for it, there's no reason Elan would be required to continue using rapiers.
He already has a spare one, though, so there's also no reason for him to switch (yet).

It's not about being written or not, Julio has already established that in order to use the CHA>STR you need to be wielding a rapier, so unless he somehow retcons it into "or other slim, long blades like sabres" Elan won't be able to use this ability.
He does have a spare one, but that would be weaker than Julio's +3.

[ChristianSt]

It's not about being written or not, Julio has already established that in order to use the CHA>STR you need to be wielding a rapier, so unless he somehow retcons it into "or other slim, long blades like sabres" Elan won't be able to use this ability.
He does have a spare one, but that would be weaker than Julio's +3.

Julio,390 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html):"Among other abilities, it will allow you to substitute your Charisma bonus for your Strength bonus to damage when you wield a rapier - as long as you can make a witty pun or spout a catch-phrase when you attack."
This translate to: Dashing Swordsman has a certain amount of abilities (lets call that amount X) and one ability is: "Exchange STR with CHA while wielding a rapier".

Why couldn't Dashing swordsman not also have the ability "Exchange STR with CHA while wielding a sabre" or "Exchange STR with CHA while wielding a dagger" or "Exchange STR with CHA while wielding a bowling ball"? [ok, I would bet all my collected electrum pieces that it hasn't the last one]. Saying to Elan that it allows that "while wielding a Weapon_Class_1or Weapon_Class_2 or Weapon_Class_3 or Weapon_Class_4 or Weapon_Class_5 ..." (or excluding all weapons it doesn't work with) would make that explanation longer without adding any value to the comic.

We don't have a (complete) list of abilities a Dashing Swordsman can have, we only know a few select one.

[Brookshw]

Elan will use his other rapier. He has had two for a very long time.

Of bah, its no longer worthy of a hero of his caliber :smalltongue:

[Nimin]

Julio,390 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.htmlhttp://):"Among other abilities, it will allow you to substitute your Charisma bonus for your Strength bonus to damage when you wield a rapier - as long as you can make a witty pun or spout a catch-phrase when you attack."
This translate to: Dashing Swordsman has a certain amount of abilities (lets call that amount X) and one ability is: "Exchange STR with CHA while wielding a rapier".

Why couldn't Dashing swordsman not also have the ability "Exchange STR with CHA while wielding a sabre" or "Exchange STR with CHA while wielding a dagger" or "Exchange STR with CHA while wielding a bowling ball"? [ok, I would bet all my collected electrum pieces that it hasn't the last one]. Saying to Elan that it allows that "while wielding a Weapon_Class_1or Weapon_Class_2 or Weapon_Class_3 or Weapon_Class_4 or Weapon_Class_5 ..." (or excluding all weapons it doesn't work with) would make that explanation longer without adding any value to the comic.

Because Julio specified the weapon being a rapier before gifting his own to him. Had it been the other way around your interpretation may have been correct (the ability working with many weapons and him mentioning rapiers because that's the one he just gave to him), but as it stands now his wording dictates that the ability is restricted -not comprehensive- of rapiers.

[ChristianSt]

Because Julio specified the weapon being a rapier before gifting his own to him. Had it been the other way around your interpretation may have been correct (the ability working with many weapons and him mentioning rapiers because that's the one he just gave to him), but as it stands now his wording dictates that the ability is restricted -not comprehensive- of rapiers.

Imo that is not a valid argumentation. Julio probably had the idea to give Elan his rapier and the assumption that they talked off-panel about the fact that Elan using a rapier isn't that unreasonable.
Also this is only a description provided by Julio through Rich to tell us the fact that Dashing Swordsman is awesome for Elan - and a central point is that it boosts rapier-fighting. Listing all possible weapon types is cumbersome, saying many doesn't include necessarily rapiers and saying many including rapiers imo just sounds weird.

Also why should he use a non-rapier weapon (a sabre) himself if it wouldn't be covered by Dashing Swordsman?

[Bulldog Psion]

Isn't a rapier the quintessential Dashing Weapon(tm) though?

[Nimin]

Imo that is not a valid argumentation. Julio probably had the idea to give Elan his rapier and the assumption that they talked off-panel about the fact that Elan using a rapier isn't that unreasonable.
Also this is only a description provided by Julio through Rich to tell us the fact that Dashing Swordsman is awesome for Elan - and a central point is that it boosts rapier-fighting. Listing all possible weapon types is cumbersome, saying many doesn't include necessarily rapiers and saying many including rapiers imo just sounds weird.

"And you'll be able to add your Charisma instead of Strenght when fighting with a light-weapon, so long as you make a witty pun".
Not cumbersome at all, and with the same concept of light armors for rogues.
There was no need to mention specifically rapiers unless rapiers were the one needed to use that skill, sorry.

I'm also not gonna take assumptions, "probably thought of", possible off-panels and other wishful thinking to explain this: it's easy to excuse everything that way, let's stick to what the comic actually states.


Also why should he use a non-rapier weapon (a sabre) himself if it wouldn't be covered by Dashing Swordsman?
"There's an error, why would that error be there? Clearly it's not an error".
I'm afraid this kind of logic doesn't work.

[ChristianSt]

"And you'll be able to add your Charisma instead of Strenght when fighting with a light-weapon, so long as you make a witty pun".
Not cumbersome at all, and with the same concept of light armors for rogues.
There was no need to mention specifically rapiers unless rapiers were the one needed to use that skill, sorry.
Ok, that isn't cumbersome - but unfortunately it is just plain wrong (or useless), because Rapiers aren't light weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#martialWeapons). The closest you get would be with "one-handed piercing weapons", which includes weapons like Tridents or heavy Picks. The best thing I could think of would be "some weapons, including Rapiers" which imo sounds cumbersome.



I'm also not gonna take assumptions, "probably thought of", possible off-panels and other wishful thinking to explain this: it's easy to excuse everything that way, let's stick to what the comic actually states.

I don't even need to stick to "probably thought of" and off-panel discussion, but since you are ignoring what the comic actually states I need them to get the point across: Julio says: "With Dashing Swordsman you can (among other things I don't tell the audience) do X with Y". So how does this equals to "With Dashing Swordsman you can't do X with non-Y"?
If I go to restaurant and the waiter says: "Here at this fine restaurant we serve fabulous dishes, among them pizza with ham." I can't say anything at all about whether they serve other pizza as well (most likely I would think it is more likely that they have other pizza, too) [or if you don't like the example with pizza, lets use wine from Italy - clearly by your logic they shouldn't have wine not from Italy]



"There's an error, why would that error be there? Clearly it's not an error".
I'm afraid this kind of logic doesn't work.
That is not the kind of logic I'm using. That is only the kind of logic I would need to use if I would making wrong assumptions about a class we don't have much information about.

[Thomas Hunter]

Elan's original original rapier was sundered by Belkar yelling too loudly way back at the start of the comic.

And interestingly enough, Tarquin is shouting when he sunders the rapier.

Coincidence? I think not. :smallamused:

[Nimin]

Ok, that isn't cumbersome - but unfortunately it is just plain wrong (or useless), because Rapiers aren't light weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#martialWeapons). The closest you get would be with "one-handed piercing weapons", which includes weapons like Tridents or heavy Picks. The best thing I could think of would be "some weapons, including Rapiers" which imo sounds cumbersome.
You're right on the item descriptor, but had Julio simply been talking of Elan's current weapon selection he would have said "using your rapier" instead of "a rapier", which implies generality and a restriction to the item itself. It's all about the wording, there's nothing hinting that the ability would trigger with more than the mentioned weapon.


I don't even need to stick to "probably thought of" and off-panel discussion, but since you are ignoring what the comic actually states I need them to get the point across: Julio says: "With Dashing Swordsman you can (among other things I don't tell the audience) do X with Y". So how does this equals to "With Dashing Swordsman you can't do X with non-Y"?

Because it's grasping at straws. You're using the "unknown abilities" to try convincing me that the Dashing Swordsman class would somehow feature a number of redundant, samey abilities for each of an unknown number of weapons - rather than just one "Use rapier for X" and a bunch of other entirely distinct moves like the window-glass immunity.
I find your theory cluttering and unplausible, which is why I'm dismissing it.


That is not the kind of logic I'm using. That is only the kind of logic I would need to use if I would making wrong assumptions about a class we don't have much information about.
Explain me what kind of logic where you using then.

[Scow2]

A saber is a rapier for all intents and purposes in D&D rules, just as a Katana is a Bastard Sword and Wakizashi is a Shortsword.

[ChristianSt]

You're right on the item descriptor, but had Julio simply been talking of Elan's current weapon selection he would have said "using your rapier" instead of "a rapier", which implies generality and a restriction to the item itself. It's all about the wording, there's nothing hinting that the ability would trigger with more than the mentioned weapon.

Using "your rapier" would also be wrong, since at that point in time he had no rapier (since Nale had it at that time). And applying your reasoning it would even state that it would only work with that specific rapier. Because if that wouldn't be the case he would clearly have not used "your rapier".



Because it's grasping at straws. You're using the "unknown abilities" to try convincing me that the Dashing Swordsman class would somehow feature a number of redundant, samey abilities for each of an unknown number of weapons - rather than just one "Use rapier for X" and a bunch of other entirely distinct moves like the window-glass immunity.
I find your theory cluttering and unplausible, which is why I'm dismissing it.

Maybe it isn't more than one ability and Julio has only said some part of the description? Maybe the ability is "Punfighting: While wielding a rapier, a sabre, or another stylish weapon with a thinner blade than a normal sword you can ..." [which I find even more likelier]. We just simple don't know - maybe he can only use rapiers (but I think that would be unlikely, since Julio seems to do it with a sabre). Maybe he can use it with all weapons (I don't think so). We simple don't know. But just hinging the argument on your interpretation why he not listed the complete Dashing Swordsman stat-block is just wrong.
If Rich would come in here and would say "It is only rapiers and nothing else", I would simply say: Ok, so Julio just likes his sabre (or it has additional other benefits) and just can't make a duel without cracking some puns while fighting.
If Rich would come in here and would say "A Dashing Swordman can use multiple weapons, including rapiers, sabres and lightsabres" you would probably say something like: Retconning at its best. [Which would be just wrong because he never said anything about Punfighting with sabres or lightsabres]



Explain me what kind of logic where you using then.
I'm using that kind of logic that depends on not just making assumptions.

[Darakonis]

A saber is a rapier for all intents and purposes in D&D rules, just as a Katana is a Bastard Sword and Wakizashi is a Shortsword.

Errr... What? I agree with the Katana and Wakizashi, but a Sabre is more similar to a Scimitar than a Rapier. A Sabre is a slashing weapon, not a piercing weapon. Huge difference.

Sabres evolved from the Middle Eastern scimitar. They typically have curved blades and are slashing weapons. Heavy cavalry started to use straight variants more suited for thrusting, but that's specifically on horseback.

EDIT: Also, while the art shows the sabre drawn as a straight-edge, we see that he uses it as a slashing weapon.

[ChristianSt]

A saber is a rapier for all intents and purposes in D&D rules, just as a Katana is a Bastard Sword and Wakizashi is a Shortsword.

Is that stated somewhere in the rules? I even couldn't find a sabre in the SRD (and my google-fu wasn't strong enough to find useful results otherwise).

I'm personally have most experience with DSA (a German rpg), which has a distinct weapon category for sabres. And without one, I would kinda put it more into the sword-category than the rapier-category if I had to.

[Nimin]

Using "your rapier" would also be wrong, since at that point in time he had no rapier (since Nale had it at that time). And applying your reasoning it would even state that it would only work with that specific rapier. Because if that wouldn't be the case he would clearly have not used "your rapier".
Except it'd make no sense. :smallsmile:
Whatever you're just being stubborn now, arguing for the sake of arguing.


Maybe it isn't more than one ability and Julio has only said some part of the description? Maybe the ability is "Punfighting: While wielding a rapier, a sabre, or another stylish weapon with a thinner blade than a normal sword you can ..." [which I find even more likelier]. We just simple don't know - maybe he can only use rapiers (but I think that would be unlikely, since Julio seems to do it with a sabre). Maybe he can use it with all weapons (I don't think so). We simple don't know. But just hinging the argument on your interpretation why he not listed the complete Dashing Swordsman stat-block is just wrong.
I'm working with what the comic gave me: a pretty specific weapon necessary for a pretty specific effect.
Everything else is fanfic-tier defense.


If Rich would come in here and would say "It is only rapiers and nothing else", I would simply say: Ok, so Julio just likes his sabre (or it has additional other benefits) and just can't make a duel without cracking some puns while fighting. If Rich would come in here and would say "A Dashing Swordman can use multiple weapons, including rapiers, sabres and lightsabres" you would probably say something like: Retconning at its best. [Which would be just wrong because he never said anything about Punfighting with sabres or lightsabres]
I'd say: "thanks for post clarifying an ambiguous discrepancy between rules and execution".


I'm using that kind of logic that depends on not just making assumptions.
Seeing how you're evading the question:
"Also why should he use a non-rapier weapon (a sabre) himself if it wouldn't be covered by Dashing Swordsman? "
If this isn't circular logic, what then? Explain.

[Brookshw]

And interestingly enough, Tarquin is shouting when he sunders the rapier.

Coincidence? I think not. :smallamused:

Me thinks you may have stumbled onto something, something that lies hidden.....

[Giggling Ghast]

The Dashing Swordsman specialization relies on using a rapier because that's what the archetypal roguishly handsome, pun-dispensing swordsman is equipped with.

In short, it's an image thing. Which makes perfect sense for a prestige class that doles out attack bonuses based on clever quips.

[ChristianSt]

Except it'd make no sense.
Whatever you're just being stubborn now, arguing for the sake of arguing.
So "rapier" does imply "no non-rapiers", but "your rapier" wouldn't imply "no not-your-rapier"? I think you should just stick to one meaning of applying how to resolving that dilemma. (And for the it doesn't make sense: I think you mean that it doesn't make sense that the ability would be limited to only exactly that one rapier. Maybe. But I could certainly say that it doesn't make sense that it only work on rapier, too. That is just a definition of how the ability works. I could certainly imagine that some abilities are tied to certain items and to that item only (and not to all items of a certain type))



I'm working with what the comic gave me: a pretty specific weapon necessary for a pretty specific effect.

We have incomplete information about what a Dashing Sworman can do (since there isn't any publishes stat-block), so the only information is a few pieces of information that we haven gotten from Julio and Elan. Yes it does say a Dashing Swordsman has benefits while using a rapier. It does not say that they gain benefit only from using a rapier.

And to necessary: Julio doesn't say he gains the bonus only while wielding a rapier. He says he gains the bonus while wielding a rapier.

Either you force that extra word/meaning into Julios sentence or assuming we have complete information about Dashing Swordsman - Neither of which is true.



Seeing how you're evading the question:
"Also why should he use a non-rapier weapon (a sabre) himself if it wouldn't be covered by Dashing Swordsman? "
If this isn't circular logic, what then? Explain.

I don't see any circular logic in that, only a valid question.

I have weapon A and weapon B. I can do cool stuff with weapon A, but not with weapon B. Why should I fight with weapon B?

Sure OotS doesn't optimize, so that itself isn't an valid argument. But I never argued that it has to affect non-rapier weapons because of that. I said that I find it more likely that it affect non-rapier weapons (or at least some other non-rapier weapons, certainly not all).


You just discards the possibility that non-rapier weapons might be affected.
I simple said that this just an wild speculation you did - because we just simple don't know. (I added maybe some arguments for why I think it is more likely than rapier-only. And it really doesn't matter if you find them valid or not - you are just making an assumption beforehand.)

[Lexible]

I wonder, are rapiers and sabre the same in the Ootsverse? Julio did mention that one of the Dashing Swordsman's skill relies on using rapiers.

That would be odd: the former is a strictly piercing weapon, and the later is (almost) a strictly slashing weapon.

[Nimin]

So "rapier" does imply "no non-rapiers", but "your rapier" wouldn't imply "no not-your-rapier"?

Exactly. It's painfully obvious to anyone that a class with an ability "that only works with Elan's rapier" makes no sense, so either we discuss this as mature people or don't at all.


We have incomplete information about what a Dashing Sworman can do (since there isn't any publishes stat-block), so the only information is a few pieces of information that we haven gotten from Julio and Elan. Yes it does say a Dashing Swordsman has benefits while using a rapier. It does not say that they gain benefit only from using a rapier.
And to necessary: Julio doesn't say he gains the bonus only while wielding a rapier. He says he gains the bonus while wielding a rapier.

So going by this logic he could gain the same bonuses wielding a snake, or a tree, or a tootbrush? :smallconfused:
"Because it wasn't specified, anything goes" ?

I'm afraid I'm not gonna buy that. Rapiers have always been iconic of handsome dashing rogues like Zorro or the three Musketeers, Julio specifically mentioned using a rapier to activate the ability --> therefore a rapier is needed.
It's just common sense based on the facts we have and the Dashing Swordsman's source of inspiration.


I don't see any circular logic in that, only a valid question.

I have weapon A and weapon B. I can do cool stuff with weapon A, but not with weapon B. Why should I fight with weapon B?

Answer: for a million of reasons, none of which excludes that only weapon A would do the cool stuff.
Maybe Julio just felt a chaotic weapon would taunt Tarquin better.


Sure OotS doesn't optimize, so that itself isn't an valid argument. But I never argued that it has to affect non-rapier weapons because of that. I said that I find it more likely that it affect non-rapier weapons (or at least some other non-rapier weapons, certainly not all).


You just discards the possibility that non-rapier weapons might be affected.
I simple said that this just an wild speculation you did - because we just simple don't know. (I added maybe some arguments for why I think it is more likely than rapier-only. And it really doesn't matter if you find them valid or not - you are just making an assumption beforehand.)

There's nothing wild in using the facts we have to formulate a theory, rather than saying "could be anything and its opposite" as a catch-all excuse.

[Scow2]

Sabers are also used by Dashing Swordsmen... they've got the same cinematic flair as a Rapier, but are slashing weapons instead.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Julio was not saying everything that the dashing swordsman can do. He was only saying what was relevant for Elan. And since Elan uses a rapier, that was all that needed to be mentioned. And yes, the rapier is probably the signature weapon of the dashing swordsman, but that does not mean the abilities cannot be used on other weapons. It would make sense if it applied to any weapon with a cinematic flair, as the last poster just said.

Arguing on the Dashing Swordsman is silly. It is a made up, purposely vague prestige class, created for the purpose of humor. It can do whatever Rich wants it too do. And the exact wording said the cha bonus applies to the rapier, not only to the rapier. Even if the wording implies 'only the rapier', there was nothing said that absolutely excludes other weapons. Other weapons can be added to the list as the plot demands it.

[Nimin]

Julio was not saying everything that the dashing swordsman can do. He was only saying what was relevant for Elan. And since Elan uses a rapier, that was all that needed to be mentioned.

How did he know what was needed to be mentioned considering that Elan had no rapier with him back then (Nale had it) and never said a word about it? :smallconfused:

It was Julio who later gifted him his own, without having reason to suspect it being Elan's preferred weapon already.

[Shred-Bot]

"Exchange STR with CHA while wielding a bowling ball"? [ok, I would bet all my collected electrum pieces that it hasn't the last one].

Three holes in a bowling ball.

Three fingers on a hand in the stick-verse.

You've got yourself a bet, sir!

[Edit] And think of the puns! I bet he'll come up with a GREAT rented shoes pun just off-panel.

[ChristianSt]

Exactly. It's painfully obvious to anyone that a class with an ability "that only works with Elan's rapier" makes no sense, so either we discuss this as mature people or don't at all.

Obviously saying "Elan's rapier" in the class description would be nonsensical (and I didn't even said that). But I could certainly imagine abilities that hinge on a certain item depending on the user. (Say it could be possible that it requires a weapon he is familiar enough with. For example the Eugene can only manifest through a certain sword - not through all swords). In that case it would probably the simplest word choice for Julio to say "your rapier".



So going by this logic he could gain the same bonuses wielding a snake, or a tree, or a tootbrush?
"Because it wasn't specified, anything goes" ?

Please say at which point I said that he gains a bonus on wielding any object (or any weapon, that might be easier - but yet I didn't make such a claim :smalltongue:).
It might be possible that he also gains the bonus while wielding a tree (which I find unlikely) - but we simple don't know since we don't have the full stats on Dashing Swordsman.



There's nothing wild in using the facts we have to formulate a theory, rather than saying "could be anything and its opposite" as a catch-all excuse.

We know the fact "Dashing swordsman gain bonuses while wielding a rapier"

Why is your theory "Dashing swordsman gain no bonuses from non-rapiers" better than a theory "Dashing swordsman might gain bonuses from certain non-rapier weapon types, too"?

The comic features no evidence that the second one is wrong. But yet you claim that it is.

[Nimin]

Obviously saying "Elan's rapier" in the class description would be nonsensical (and I didn't even said that). But I could certainly imagine abilities that hinge on a certain item depending on the user. (Say it could be possible that it requires a weapon he is familiar enough with. For example the Eugene can only manifest through a certain sword - not through all swords). In that case it would probably the simplest word choice for Julio to say "your rapier".
Saying that wouldn't convey nearly enough the importance of the weapon being "attuned" to the wielder, so no, it remains a pretty unplausible theory.


Please say at which point I said that he gains a bonus on wielding any object (or any weapon, that might be easier - but yet I didn't make such a claim :smalltongue:).
By continuing to base your claim on the fact that we don't have absolute evidence of all the rules of this class, which by this logic means that everything could be.


We know the fact "Dashing swordsman gain bonuses while wielding a rapier"

Why is your theory "Dashing swordsman gain no bonuses from non-rapiers" better than a theory "Dashing swordsman might gain bonuses from certain non-rapier weapon types, too"?.


I'm afraid I'm not gonna buy that. Rapiers have always been iconic of handsome dashing rogues like Zorro or the three Musketeers, Julio specifically mentioned using a rapier to activate the ability --> therefore a rapier is needed.
It's just common sense based on the facts we have and the Dashing Swordsman's source of inspiration.

[Brookshw]

While the debate rages on who wants to speculate on what type of rapier is fit for Elan? Personally I vote dancing though I doubt that will ever be an option.

[Gemini Lupus]

While the debate rages on who wants to speculate on what type of rapier is fit for Elan? Personally I vote dancing though I doubt that will ever be an option.

I vote for a +4 Advancing Keen Astheplotdemands-Bane Rapier. Effectively a +8 Rapier, with a 15-20 Crit Range, ability to take an additional five-foot step in a round, and a potential additional 2d6 damage as the plot demands. :smallbiggrin:

[ChristianSt]

By continuing to base your claim on the fact that we don't have absolute evidence of all the rules of this class, which by this logic means that everything could be.

The important part is could - by your reasoning Dashing Swordsman should have no abilities other then the few we have seen so far.



I'm afraid I'm not gonna buy that. Rapiers have always been iconic of handsome dashing rogues like Zorro or the three Musketeers, Julio specifically mentioned using a rapier to activate the ability --> therefore a rapier is needed.
It's just common sense based on the facts we have and the Dashing Swordsman's source of inspiration.

Ok, if that is all you have got for "evidence" - than imo it is not nearly enough for that sort of claim. While Musketeers or Zorro might be an inspiration (or better said: you think they are inspiration - I can't remember hearing any word in-comic or from the Giant about it, and I even reread the commentary in WaXPs and SSaDT), I could easily claim other "evidence" saying that it must also allows swords (because heck the class even has the name "Dashing Swordsman") or (Light-)sabres (because OotS in general and specially Julio and Tarquin deploy more than enough Star Wars references). And even then it is only inspiration - nothing forces the Giant to change some facts of that source (I would be really surprised if the Giant didn't change some things to make it work better with his settings).

So if you all you have is "Dashing Swordsman is based on Musketeers/Zorro => Rapier only" than I'm gonna stop arguing with you, because I don't think it does make any sense to keep arguing.

This kinda reminds me about another discussion I was involved: Someone claimed that obviously Julio should not be on the Western Continent, because as a Sky Pirate he should (like other robbery folks he is inspired from (Robin Hood etc)) stay local near Cliffport etc. and rob local merchants and not moving around the world ...

[Brookshw]

I vote for a +4 Advancing Keen Astheplotdemands-Bane Rapier. Effectively a +8 Rapier, with a 15-20 Crit Range, ability to take an additional five-foot step in a round, and a potential additional 2d6 damage as the plot demands. :smallbiggrin:

Brilliant! :smallbiggrin:

[Nimin]

The important part is could - by your reasoning Dashing Swordsman should have no abilities other then the few we have seen so far.
This makes absolutely no sense and is the only thing we can safely rule out.


Ok, if that is all you have got for "evidence" - than imo it is not nearly enough for that sort of claim.

Well, seeing how you need *absolute evidence* to reach any sort of lasting conclusion, I can see why. Me, I have no problems reading between the lines and seeing how things worked, even without having things outright spelled out to me.

[Souhiro]

DARN!!!

People, I give you, for once, the stats for Dashing Swordman PRC, since you keep saying. This is it. I personally sent my best spy to get this info, from the Giant's archives:

HD: As Many as he needs
SAVES: As the plot demands
BAB: Okay...
SPECIAL: EVERYTHING that THE GIANT (AKA, Rich B.) finds and deems appropiate
WEAPON AND ARMOR PROFICIENCY: Only the ones I find cool enough for him to have.

[Joe the Rat]

Mmmm. I think we're missing something significant:

Dashing Swordsman lets you substitute Cha for Str on damage. Scoundrel was fighting as distraction/defensively, so the bonus damage wouldn't be all that relevant to his purposes. His using the Chaos Sabre does not confirm nor deny that the pun damage substitution applies to other one-handed finesse blades.

However, given his repartee was a torrent of textile terminology, punning was relevant in some way. My guesses are a) the damage substitution applies to sabres; b) some other as-yet unspecified DS class feature; c) force of habit; or d) because it really annoys Tarquin. My money's on d)

[ChristianSt]

Mmmm. I think we're missing something significant:

Dashing Swordsman lets you substitute Cha for Str on damage. Scoundrel was fighting as distraction/defensively, so the bonus damage wouldn't be all that relevant to his purposes. His using the Chaos Sabre does not confirm nor deny that the pun damage substitution applies to other one-handed finesse blades.

However, given his repartee was a torrent of textile terminology, punning was relevant in some way. My guesses are a) the damage substitution applies to sabres; b) some other as-yet unspecified DS class feature; c) force of habit; or d) because it really annoys Tarquin. My money's on d)

I like that proposal, but want to add e) some combination of the above :smallbiggrin:

[konradknox]

It's not just a sabre, it's Chaos Sabre. I'm sure it makes it something special.

[CombatOwl]

I wonder, are rapiers and sabre the same in the Ootsverse? Julio did mention that one of the Dashing Swordsman's skill relies on using rapiers.

Tarquin: Then why are you smiling?
Julio: Because I know something you don't know.
Tarquin: And what is that?
Julio: I... am not proficient with sabres.
[draws his rapier and gains an advantage]

[malloyd]

Is there an official DnD definition of rapier? Neither Julio's or Elan's weapons seem to qualify in the real world. They're both too short. Julio's is wide enough, those things Elan has been using look more like fencing foils than real weapons.

[Kish]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm has information on D&D rapiers. Strictly statistical, though.

[orrion]

It's not just a sabre, it's Chaos Sabre. I'm sure it makes it something special.

I think it's been proposed that it's merely a Chaotic-aligned weapon. It's not a special name weapon or something.

That means it gets a damage bonus against a Lawful opponent like Tarquin, but nothing more.

[Maquise]

Alternatively, the fact that it's Chaotic lets the wielder ignore the fine print of their class abilities.

[Nimin]

That would actually be cool, a weapon with a suffix that ignores item requirement descriptor for using special abilities.

[warrl]

It's also possible that the Dashing Swordsman class feature is restricted to rapiers with only one level, but some levels later - or by way of feats - it is extended.

[Clove]

And at high levels you can get proficiency and a bonus with any improvised weapon if you can make a spontaneous joke about it. Julio nails Tarq in the face with the rug as he puns about it. "I just love to fly in the face of tradition!"