Shooting down a fireball with an arrow.

[Catman]

Was just rereading the text for the Fireball spell. It says if "it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range" it will immediately impact. SO! Is there any conceivable way that an archer could hit the bead with an arrow and detonate the Fireball prematurely?

[ScionoftheVoid]

If you have a readied action and can hit it (it's presumably fine-sized), then I don't see why not.

[Jack_Simth]

Was just rereading the text for the Fireball spell. It says if "it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range" it will immediately impact. SO! Is there any conceivable way that an archer could hit the bead with an arrow and detonate the Fireball prematurely?
If you have a readied action and can hit it (it's presumably fine-sized), then I don't see why not.Agreed, but there's a slight catch in that it's AC isn't exactly spelled out. You've got an object of a size not specified in game mechanical terms (but presumed to be very small), going at a speed not specified in game mechanical terms, made out of materials not defined in game mechanical terms.

Which means the DM has to pick an AC pretty much out of the air, so your results may vary.

[Deophaun]

Sorry, not possible by RAW.

The way readied actions work is they occur before the event that triggered them takes place.

The way that spells (specifically those with instantaneous durations) work is that, once they are finished being cast, everything about them occurs simultaneously (defining targets, Reflex saves, damage, etc).

So, if you ready an action to hit a fireball, your readied action must occur before the spell actually goes into effect. In essence, you are trying to hit something that doesn't yet exist.

[Flickerdart]

Be a bard. Put ranks in Perform(Weapon Drill). Wield a bow. Use Metamagic Song to Persist the spell undersong. Become a 5th level kensai or take action before thought.

Whenever you make a Reflex save, you use a Perform (Weapon Drill) check instead. Swat the fireball away with arrows.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, you can do this. From page 5 of Player's Handbook:
WHAT CHARACTERS CAN DO
A character can try to do anything you can imagine, just as long as it fits the scene the DM describes.
Distracting Spellcasters

You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result). You're just changing the "fluff" to hitting the pea-size bead close to the spellcaster, with the resulting blast dealing them exactly the amount of damage the arrow inflicts. As long as the result is legal by the RAW game mechanics, the description can be as you like.

[Heliomance]

Yes, you can do this. From page 5 of Player's Handbook: You're just changing the "fluff" to hitting the pea-size bead close to the spellcaster, with the resulting blast dealing them exactly the amount of damage the arrow inflicts. As long as the result is legal by the RAW game mechanics, the description can be as you like.

That doesn't work, however - for one, targets around the wizard don't take damage as they would if the fireball went off in the wizard's face. For two, if the wizard makes their concentration check for the damage, the fireball goes off as intended anyway, so clearly the arrow can't have hit it.

[Evandar]

I'd allow it.


Are there rules in D&D for increasing AC based off speed? I'd eyeball the AC on the fireball to be something like 10 (base) + 1 per CL + 8 for Fine size. So the AC on it would be pretty formidable.

Admittedly it might not be possible by RAW because of the aforementioned instantaneous line.

[holywhippet]

Admittedly it might not be possible by RAW because of the aforementioned instantaneous line.

Arguable. That is general description for spells that don't have a duration. It does say the fireball bead has to travel and you have to make a ranged touch attack to target it if you are shooting through a gap.

[Curmudgeon]

For two, if the wizard makes their concentration check for the damage, the fireball goes off as intended anyway, so clearly the arrow can't have hit it.
No, in that case the arrow missed the bead and hit the spellcaster instead.

[Seerow]

Be a bard. Put ranks in Perform(Weapon Drill). Wield a bow. Use Metamagic Song to Persist the spell undersong. Become a 5th level kensai or take action before thought.

Whenever you make a Reflex save, you use a Perform (Weapon Drill) check instead. Swat the fireball away with arrows.

Am I missing something here that makes the Reflex Save also protect everyone else in the area?

Otherwise, sure, you're using your weapon to defend yourself from the Fireball, but it's not letting you protect others, it will still affect all of them. So not quite the same thing as what the OP is looking for.

[Joe the Rat]

Yeah, rule of cool on this one. I would let someone try this as a near-impossible shot - and that's after making the Spellcraft check to know that a Fireball is coming.

This is one of those things where I'd be inclined to suspend the auto-hit 20 rule. Call is an Attack check if you like. Using Evandar's math the minimum AC (against a 5th level Wizard) is 28. With a focused archery build - even at 5th level - that's difficult but not impossible. Pulling this off would be a long shot.

I think this is falling in the range of things that needs a Feat. Shoot Arrows with Arrows.

[TuggyNE]

No, in that case the arrow missed the bead and hit the spellcaster instead.

Since the spellcaster is taking the damage either way, this is some pretty badly borked refluffing. I don't think it works properly.

However, a properly phrased readied action might work, by saying something like "when the fireball bead approaches within 30 feet of any of us".

[Seerow]

I'd allow it.


Are there rules in D&D for increasing AC based off speed? I'd eyeball the AC on the fireball to be something like 10 (base) + 1 per CL + 8 for Fine size. So the AC on it would be pretty formidable.

Admittedly it might not be possible by RAW because of the aforementioned instantaneous line.

Personally I'd go with caster mod instead of caster level. Maybe even straight Save DC + 8.

[AstralFire]

Spend an action point, you have ranks in Spellcraft and you're an archer focused build, I'd allow it.

For those playing without action points, I'd make it an AC equal to 10+ the save DC of the spell. Might seem a bit low, but this is a readied action spent to disrupt someone else's spell, as a martial character. That's a big expenditure on its own.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Be a bard. Put ranks in Perform(Weapon Drill). Wield a bow. Use Metamagic Song to Persist the spell undersong. Become a 5th level kensai or take action before thought.

Whenever you make a Reflex save, you use a Perform (Weapon Drill) check instead. Swat the fireball away with arrows.

Wouldn't work on Fireball (sadly), but all this and take the spell reflect ACF for Rogue or Monk from Exemplars of Evil to richochet rays back at casters with Disney's animated Robin Hood level trickshots.

[Evandar]

Personally I'd go with caster mod instead of caster level. Maybe even straight Save DC + 8.

The reason I don't like Save DC + 8 is that while it is okay with say, a level 5 wizard vs a level 5 ranger, the spell level remains 3rd as they both progress. I think (my group hardly ever has non-villain spellcasters, they delight in winning via mundane methods) that means the ranger's +1 BaB per level quickly makes it trivial to stop the fireball.

My IG logic would be a high CL gives you higher range, but the fireball is travelling over the same period of time (implying it is travelling faster).

[AstralFire]

The reason I don't like Save DC + 8 is that while it is okay with say, a level 5 wizard vs a level 5 ranger, the spell level remains 3rd as they both progress. I think (my group hardly ever has non-villain spellcasters, they delight in winning via mundane methods) that means the ranger's +1 BaB per level quickly makes it trivial to stop the fireball.

My IG logic would be a high CL gives you higher range, but the fireball is travelling over the same period of time (implying it is travelling faster).

Trivial with a readied action. That's a significant expenditure for anticipating one spell.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Readying to shoot a fireball bead is a pretty specific condition. What if the wizard casts Scintillating Sphere instead?

[Spore]

Readying to shoot a fireball bead is a pretty specific condition. What if the wizard casts Scintillating Sphere instead?

"I want to shoot at the spell" is a valid prepared action :)

[Creed]

This is... genius. Simply genius.
*puts it in his book of tricks right next to trap badger*

[Evandar]

"I want to shoot at the spell" is a valid prepared action :)

As long as the spell takes the form some type of fireball-esque sphere heading towards an opponent, it seems permissible. The thing is it could just as easily be a Lightning Bolt, Disintegrate or who knows what. My understanding of rays is that they do arrive at their target instantaneously.

I imagine that, with the time one has to react, you'd have to know roughly what you're going to be aiming for if you expect to stop it.

Of course, high level D&D characters don't operate like normal humans at all, so feel free to disagree.

Putting it in your bag of tricks might be hard if you don't run it by your DM first, since there are no real rules for how it'd be done. It is something I'd be uncomfortable springing mid-game.

[Zanos]

Sorry, not possible by RAW.

The way readied actions work is they occur before the event that triggered them takes place.

The way that spells (specifically those with instantaneous durations) work is that, once they are finished being cast, everything about them occurs simultaneously (defining targets, Reflex saves, damage, etc).

So, if you ready an action to hit a fireball, your readied action must occur before the spell actually goes into effect. In essence, you are trying to hit something that doesn't yet exist.
^

Fireball has a duration of "instantaneous." The fireball leaves the casters hand, arrives at it's destination, and explodes all in one action, by the rules. You can attempt to interrupt them by readying an action to attack them if they cast a spell and attempt to disrupt their concentration, however.

If you're the DM you're free to houserule as desired, though.

[Flickerdart]

^

Fireball has a duration of "instantaneous." The fireball leaves the casters hand, arrives at it's destination, and explodes all in one action, by the rules. You can attempt to interrupt them by readying an action to attack them if they cast a spell and attempt to disrupt their concentration, however.

If you're the DM you're free to houserule as desired, though.
To be fair, movement is also encapsulated in one action, and yet spells like Halt exist.

[Runeclaw]

Between rule of cool, the theory that "anything that boosts archers at the expense of spellcasters is good", I'd be inclined to allow it.

Realistically, though, it should follow the same rules as you would apply to a character trying to shoot an arrow, thrown weapon, or other mundane flying inanimate object out of the air.

The standard object AC, modified by size, doesn't really account for it being in motion. "Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they usually don’t move" - but what about when they do? How does targeting a moving wagon or siege weapon work, for some slower-moving examples?

[Catman]

Accounting for the bead being in motion, isn't everything in motion, constantly?

[Runeclaw]

Presumably we're using a reasonable frame of reference, such as "the world"

[Rebel7284]

Yes this should have the same difficulty as shooting an arrow or maybe even more difficult because it's an even smaller object.

However, for anyone who can create a barrier as a standard action or less, it may be possible to ready an action to do just that... create a wall that will make the bead hit it and explode.

[Scow2]

^

Fireball has a duration of "instantaneous." The fireball leaves the casters hand, arrives at it's destination, and explodes all in one action, by the rules. You can attempt to interrupt them by readying an action to attack them if they cast a spell and attempt to disrupt their concentration, however.

If you're the DM you're free to houserule as desired, though.
In addition to what Flickerdart said - actions can be interrupted at any point during them with a Readied action.

[Deophaun]

To be fair, movement is also encapsulated in one action, and yet spells like Halt exist.
There's a difference between action and time.

A move action may be a single action, but it consists of multiple discrete units of time: every time you go from one square to another, a unit of time has ticked by. Thus, you can interrupt someone moving from A to G when they pass E.

Similarly, a full-round action is a single action, but represents a larger amount of time, which are also often broken up into discrete units. Consider a hasted level 20 TWF Warblade making a full attack. His action can be split up into eight units, one for each of his attacks. At the juncture of any one of these points in his action, he can be interrupted.

But, when it comes to spells, the action is not important: swift, move, standard, they all play out roughly the same: You have two units of time: One where you are casting, and one where everything else happens all at once. This is how you actually interrupt casting: you attack someone while they are making their silly hand movements and strange guttural noises while smearing their faces with bat feces, but before the spell comes into effect. If the action didn't have this division, then you wouldn't be able to force a Concentration check unless you were dealing with a one round or longer casting time.

And once that effect comes into effect, in the case of instantaneous spells, there is no time there to interrupt:

Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast.
It's not multiple, consecutive instances. It's a single instant. So while movement works in a logical A -> B -> C progression, magic is CDEABGF all thrown down at once. It makes no sense to say you interrupt it between "E" and "F," because those events have no causal relation to each other.

[Evandar]

It's not multiple, consecutive instances. It's a single instant. So while movement works in a logical A -> B -> C progression, magic is CDEABGF all thrown down at once. It makes no sense to say you interrupt it between "E" and "F," because those events have no causal relation to each other.

Okay, I think I follow this line of reasoning. So if someone is moving in D&D, you can't stop him at AB, you have to interrupt him at either A or B, since they're different steps in the action, whereas magic supposedly fires of all at once.

I understand the premise, but it seems like interpretation would make some sense here. While the actual combat mechanics seem to make it impossible to interrupt once the spell is cast, logic (which isn't RAW) seems to indicate it is entirely possible to put something in front of the fireball en route. It's a houserule but it seem pretty reasonable.

[Thanatosia]

If you need a feat to catch an arrow in flight, I think you'd need one to shoot a fireball in flight at the least. This kind of makes it a moot point because who in their right mind would take 'shoot fireball' as one of their feats.

Rule of cool is cool and all, but yeah, you dont exactly have much time to aim the bow and the target is so small and fast. Barring someone wasting an actual feat slot to learn to do this trick, I'd want to set the AC so high you'd have to be an epic-level archer to have any chance, and by epic levels who cares about lv3 evocations? 35 average damage is trivial by then, and even if it's metamagicked up the wazoo to be an actual threat or targeting some mcguffin that needed to be protected at all costs, there are far more practical means to stop the cast.

[ericgrau]

Sure you ready an action, shoot it and it detonates where it is hit. I don't see the problem. Its AC does nearly need to be pulled out of thin air because there is no hard rule, ya. All we know or sure is that it is more than 13 and probably more than 18 because it's moving, and that would be for a ~4 inch object like a baseball. From there you have to guess what a pea's AC should be. Probably less than 42 because the width of the arrow starts to become a factor once the projectile is wider than your target. So... um, I'd say its AC is between 18 and 42. Beyond that I'm not sure.

I don't see what the hub bub about "instantaneous" is about. It doesn't mean beyond the speed of light and therefore impossible to react to. It means a split second rather than, say, an entire round. Quit being over-technical in ways that make no sense. D&D does not have a thousand abilities that take precisely 0 seconds to travel any distance. It has a thousand abilities that take a very small amount of time which is much less than 6 seconds but not zero. You could probably apply the description "instantaneous" to pretty much everything that doesn't have an official duration, and plenty of people are readying actions against such things already.

[KnotKnormal]

am i the only one who sees the core of a fire ball to be somewhere between baseball and softball sized, and not a fine dot that would be near impossible to hit? i would honestly put the AC of a fireball around 25. It would be like shooting the apple off a running man's head.

[Deophaun]

While the actual combat mechanics seem to make it impossible to interrupt once the spell is cast, logic (which isn't RAW) seems to indicate it is entirely possible to put something in front of the fireball en route. It's a houserule but it seem pretty reasonable.
House rules are fine, but there's something else to consider:

"I ready an action to jump out of the way of the spell."

Basically, it's a house rule that makes one of the least-effective caster builds less effective. Now, it's not crippling by any means, as you are spending standard actions and dropping in initiative while, presumably, other enemies are active. Plus you have limited means of knowing what spell is actually going to be cast. But still, in games where what's good for the goose is good for the gander, this rule will tend to steer players towards existing optimal choices and away from blasting.


am i the only one who sees the core of a fire ball to be somewhere between baseball and softball sized, and not a fine dot that would be near impossible to hit?
Older editions of D&D specified Fireball as a pea-sized BBs of flaming death.

[ericgrau]

am i the only one who sees the core of a fire ball to be somewhere between baseball and softball sized, and not a fine dot that would be near impossible to hit?
The 3.5 spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) says it's pea sized. So it's not impossible, but it's pretty dang hard.

[Totema]

am i the only one who sees the core of a fire ball to be somewhere between baseball and softball sized, and not a fine dot that would be near impossible to hit? i would honestly put the AC of a fireball around 25. It would be like shooting the apple off a running man's head.
I dunno about you, but I wouldn't want to sculpt a baseball-sized sphere out of bat guano.

[KnotKnormal]

The 3.5 spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) says it's pea sized. So it's not impossible, but it's pretty dang hard.

ah... thank you... that bothers me a little bit but i have been corrected.

[ericgrau]

If the fluff bothers you then don't think of it as a flaming ball like a video game. Think of it as a glowing orange pearl that blows up on impact. Also spell component pouches aren't huge, and the wizard needs to physical form this bead before making it magical.

[Jon_Dahl]

This is one of the best ideas I've read for a while. Thank you! I'm going to use, and I'm the DM :smallbiggrin:

The AC of the bead is exactly 18 (base 10 + fine size 8). That's easy! It can't have any other modifiers, since it's just moving a straight line and not avoiding attacks.

Love it!

I think the correct phrasing should be the following:
"Once I see the spell effect, I shoot at it."

[Mystral]

Okay, here's how I would handle it:

First, you need to have a prepared action to shoot down the fireball.

No, not for interrupting spellcasting, but for when the fireball happens. If the opponent doesn't cast fireball, bad luck.

Then, you can choose if you want to hit the fireball when it happens, or midway between the start point and target. If first, you need to make a reflex save to pull it of, if second, no need.

Then, you will need to hit against AC 10 + 8 (fine size) + the spellcasting stat modifier of the caster. If you pull that of, congratulations.

I wouldn't say that the AC is 18. After all, it may move in a straight line, but very, very fast (It can cover 600 feet in less then 6 seconds)

[DeltaEmil]

Okay, here's how I would handle it:

First, you need to have a prepared action to shoot down the fireball.

No, not for interrupting spellcasting, but for when the fireball happens. If the opponent doesn't cast fireball, bad luck.

Then, you can choose if you want to hit the fireball when it happens, or midway between the start point and target. If first, you need to make a reflex save to pull it of, if second, no need.

Then, you will need to hit against AC 10 + 8 (fine size) + the spellcasting stat modifier of the caster. If you pull that of, congratulations.

I wouldn't say that the AC is 18. After all, it may move in a straight line, but very, very fast (It can cover 600 feet in less then 6 seconds)If you've readied an action for explicitely shooting at the fireball bead instead of at the spellcaster, I would definitely allow it at AC 18, and be done with it. I'd perhaps demand to know at which distance the readied attack occurs, so perhaps range increment penalties might apply. After that, it's all good.

Spellcasters don't need any extra advantage in that regard anyway. This is for non-spellcasters (who are really the only ones who would do that stuff) to shine. No need to add additional hurdles.

[Sewercop]

you cant shoot down a fireball. It either happens instantly or it dont happen at all. There are nothing in between.

You can argue gm fiat as much as you want, the rules dont let you target it.

[Thanatosia]

The AC of the bead is exactly 18 (base 10 + fine size 8). That's easy! It can't have any other modifiers, since it's just moving a straight line and not avoiding attacks.
if it's that easy why can't you just shoot down arrows with arrows all day, I mean, they are just moving in a strait line, should be an easy target right??

By your logic, even a novice bowman with +0 to hit would have a 15% (natural roll of 18, 19, or 20) chance of shooting bullets out of the air with a bow and arrow (Cuz speed does'nt matter if its a strait line, right?), and a really good bowman could do it all day consistantly.


Shooting projectiles out of the sky with other projectiles should *never* be easy, and as deflect arrows demonstrates, should probably require a feat to even be an option to begin with.

[Sewercop]

I think the correct phrasing should be the following:
"Once I see the spell effect, I shoot at it."

From the srd:

Duration
A spell’s Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.

Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

You either interupt before the spell is cast, or you dont get to do anything at all about it

[DeltaEmil]

if it's that easy why can't you just shoot down arrows with arrows all day, I mean, they are just moving in a strait line, should be an easy target right??

By your logic, even a novice bowman with +0 to hit would have a 15% (natural roll of 18, 19, or 20) chance of shooting bullets out of the air with a bow and arrow (Cuz speed does'nt matter if its a strait line, right?), and a really good bowman could do it all day consistantly.


Shooting projectiles out of the sky with other projectiles should *never* be easy, and as deflect arrows demonstrates, should probably require a feat to even be an option to begin with.Deflect arrows lets you deflect a projectile once per round automatically and takes no actions at all. Shooting arrows in the sky (and modern bullets) with other arrows doesn't work, because arrows can only deal damage. Well, actually, you can shoot arrows at projectiles in motion, but you aren't accomplishing anything even if you hit.

One could try to sunder a projectile, but it would have to be with something different than arrows, because arrows (and crossbow bolts) deal piercing damage, and you can't sunder things with piercing damage. Sundering a projectile with a dagger, axe, or throwing hammer is possible, however. And of course with melee weapons that deal slashing or bludgeoning damage.

Sundering bullets with a katana, here we come. :smallcool:

[Totema]

From the srd:

Duration
A spell’s Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.

Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

You either interupt before the spell is cast, or you dont get to do anything at all about it

When you cast a fireball, the magical energy is directed towards launching the bead that explodes on contact. Channeling that energy is instantaneous, but that doesn't mean that the fireball is - after all, it still takes a standard action to do.

The ToB maneuver Sudden Leap also has an instantaneous duration, but that doesn't mean a Warblade can jump at the speed of light.

[Sewercop]

When you cast a fireball, the magical energy is directed towards launching the bead that explodes on contact. Channeling that energy is instantaneous, but that doesn't mean that the fireball is - after all, it still takes a standard action to do.

The ToB maneuver Sudden Leap also has an instantaneous duration, but that doesn't mean a Warblade can jump at the speed of light.

You are involving real life physics into d&d. The raw clearly says it happens at the same time. It is a standard action to cast the fireball. That is when you have the oppertunity to interupt it.

The sudden leap allows you to make a move action. Completly different.
It even spells that you make a jump as a swift action.
The effect however is instant. You initiate, then you get the effect that allows you to move. That you can react to.

You are wrong comapred to raw.


Deflect arrows lets you deflect a projectile once per round automatically and takes no actions at all. Shooting arrows in the sky (and modern bullets) with other arrows doesn't work, because arrows can only deal damage. Well, actually, you can shoot arrows at projectiles in motion, but you aren't accomplishing anything even if you hit.

One could try to sunder a projectile, but it would have to be with something different than arrows, because arrows (and crossbow bolts) deal piercing damage, and you can't sunder things with piercing damage. Sundering a projectile with a dagger, axe, or throwing hammer is possible, however. And of course with melee weapons that deal slashing or bludgeoning damage.

Sundering bullets with a katana, here we come. :smallcool:

from the feat:
Unusually massive ranged weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants, and ranged attacks generated by spell effects, such as Melf's acid arrow, can't be deflected.

you are wrong

[Curmudgeon]

from the feat:
Unusually massive ranged weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants, and ranged attacks generated by spell effects, such as Melf's acid arrow, can't be deflected.

you are wrong
Yes, that was the wrong feat. What's actually required is Exceptional Deflection [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection):
Benefit: You can deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows.

[Fitz10019]

Shooting projectiles out of the sky with other projectiles should *never* be easy, and as deflect arrows demonstrates, should probably require a feat to even be an option to begin with.

The feat you're referring to happens during another character's turn, with no preparation, no cost to the feat holder (other than the feat).

Readying an action to do something that may or may not happen is more costly within the combat scene.

[Sewercop]

Yes, that was the wrong feat. What's actually required is Exceptional Deflection [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection):

But look at the wording, only if it is a ranged touch attack spell.
Fireball are only a ranged touch if:
If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

Barring that, you cant deflect it. But that does not matter at all.
You dont take any damage from the projectile, wich the wording makes you take no damage from. But...

The text on firball on the other hand makes the effect take place when you deflect it(when it hits a physical barrier). So you take damage anyways. Even if you deflect it. With an epic feat.. yes, this is a good thing to do

[Totema]

You are involving real life physics into d&d. The raw clearly says it happens at the same time. It is a standard action to cast the fireball. That is when you have the oppertunity to interupt it.

The sudden leap allows you to make a move action. Completly different.
It even spells that you make a jump as a swift action.
The effect however is instant. You initiate, then you get the effect that allows you to move. That you can react to.

You are wrong comapred to raw.


Clearly you didn't get the analogy I made.

In the case of Sudden Leap, the "instantaneous duration" is spent gaining the ability to make a jump. Then the user makes the jump.

In the case of Fireball, the "instantaneous duration" is spent turning the spell components into the bead that becomes a fireball. Then the fireball is launched at the intended location.

But the fireball itself is not instantaneous. If it were, there would be no Reflex save against it. Anyone in the way of the bead can see it coming, and has the opportunity to get out of the way first. The caster isn't just picking some location to arbitrarily explode.

[Sewercop]

I got what you meant, there are no way to target it barring a idiot player using ranged attack on fireball and an epic feat. If neither of those are in play, the effect are instant as soon as the spell is finished casting.

[Thanatosia]

The feat you're referring to happens during another character's turn, with no preparation, no cost to the feat holder (other than the feat).

Readying an action to do something that may or may not happen is more costly within the combat scene.
Fair enough, but I"m still unwilling to concede that a flying projectile should have no other modifiers to its AC to be hit beyond it's Size modifier, I just find that utterly ludicrous. A bullet should be harder to hit mid air then an arrow which should be harder to hit then a thrown weapon which should be harder to hit then a flying bug which should be harder to hit then a stationary object.

[Sewercop]

It does not need an ac. Since it cant be targetted that way, speaking of the spell fireball atleast.

If you talk about shooting arrows with arrows(or similar), i would need to look into it.

[Fitz10019]

Speed is not normally a factor in AC, but I can see the point of saying, 'hey, it's a moving object, so the AC should be higher.' Actually Haste gives a Dodge bonus to AC. So there is a premise for this idea.

For the opposing philosophies (speedy object = hard to hit; straight line=easy to hit), perhaps the bead should become easier to hit later in the flightpath. Every 10' of movement in the straight line should give a +1 circumstance bonus to the attack roll to hit, due to the predictability. The readying archer should also declare how far from the caster he's trying to hit it, and that would effect the chance of success.

For those who feel this all sounds too easy, perhaps requiring a Spot check for targeting before the attack roll will push the likelihood of success into the right range for you.

[Gwendol]

But look at the wording, only if it is a ranged touch attack spell.
Fireball are only a ranged touch if:
If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

Barring that, you cant deflect it. But that does not matter at all.
You dont take any damage from the projectile, wich the wording makes you take no damage from. But...

The text on firball on the other hand makes the effect take place when you deflect it(when it hits a physical barrier). So you take damage anyways. Even if you deflect it. With an epic feat.. yes, this is a good thing to do

But look at the wording, it says including spells that require ranged touch attacks. Any ranged attacks can be deflected, apparantly.

[Fitz10019]

Speed as AC, based on normal medium character and extrapolated based on Haste's dodge bonus


60' per round, AC bonus = 0
120' per round, AC bonus = 1 [based on Hasted]
550' per round, AC bonus = 4 [max increment of an arrow from a longbow, maybe a 5 if from a composite longbow with longer range]

[Segev]

If you want to allow it, go ahead. The AC 18 after a readied action for shooting down a fireball sounds like the right way to do it.

But be aware that this just makes spells which are balanced against the expected damage of fireball but which don't rely on this explosive projectile more attractive. Firebrand, for instance. On the other hand, Fireball's explicit rules about shooting through narrow openings does let it have occasional capability of violating otherwise-firm line-of-effect rules, so...

[Jon_Dahl]

Speed as AC, based on normal medium character and extrapolated based on Haste's dodge bonus


60' per round, AC bonus = 0
120' per round, AC bonus = 1 [based on Hasted]
550' per round, AC bonus = 4 [max increment of an arrow from a longbow, maybe a 5 if from a composite longbow with longer range]


I like your thinking. This is so well-reasoned that it borders between a house rule and RAI.

[Sewercop]

But look at the wording, it says including spells that require ranged touch attacks. Any ranged attacks can be deflected, apparantly.

Yes, any ranged attack. And spells that require ranged touch attack. Fireball does not have a ranged touch attack unless you try to shoot it through narrow places.
I have no problem letting a epic character deflect a fireball or other spells at that level with feat investment like that. Neither do the game.

but

Speed as AC, based on normal medium character and extrapolated based on Haste's dodge bonus


60' per round, AC bonus = 0
120' per round, AC bonus = 1 [based on Hasted]
550' per round, AC bonus = 4 [max increment of an arrow from a longbow, maybe a 5 if from a composite longbow with longer range]


That opens another can of worms since you are rewriting the rules of the game, every character that moves,jumps,falls or anything similar should get an ac bonus based on speed then.

again..

If you want to allow it, go ahead. The AC 18 after a readied action for shooting down a fireball sounds like the right way to do it.

But be aware that this just makes spells which are balanced against the expected damage of fireball but which don't rely on this explosive projectile more attractive. Firebrand, for instance. On the other hand, Fireball's explicit rules about shooting through narrow openings does let it have occasional capability of violating otherwise-firm line-of-effect rules, so...

You are invalidating builds that have the deflection or similar feats.They are now useless and subpar, even more then usual.


I like your thinking. This is so well-reasoned that it borders between a house rule and RAI.

No, just no. It is not a good reason, it is a cop out from the rules and it creates new instance where you need to calculate speed ac for everything.
RAI? Don`t be silly. The designers have implemented the ability to deflect ranged touch spells in an epic feat. Thats intention.

[Scow2]

you cant shoot down a fireball. It either happens instantly or it dont happen at all. There are nothing in between.

You can argue gm fiat as much as you want, the rules dont let you target it.First off - D&D 3.5 explicitly states that there is nothing you cannot do if it matches the tone of the game. All that the rules explain is how to go about performing common actions.

The spell itself disagrees, explicitly stating that there is a period between casting the spell and the small bead of fire racing from the caster's hand to the target coordinate at the speed of an arrow-flight. The bead is an object that interacts with the world as well. Ergo, it's a targetable object, even if it only exists for a short while.

You can do all sorts of nasty things with readied actions, INCLUDING "jumping out of the way": You can move out of range or behind cover, or take a +4 Dodge bonus if you don't move out of your space. The cost of a readied action is your next turn.
You are invalidating builds that have the deflection or similar feats.They are now useless and subpar, even more then usual.
How the heck does the ability to spend a turn-and-a-half to shut down something that may or may not happen invalidate builds that rely on reflexively shutting down attacks as a non or immediate action?

[Drachasor]

This came up about 6 months ago or more. Two things to bear in mind.

1. "Instantaneous" does not typically mean "within 0 seconds". It means within a very short period of time; a moment. So no, the bead does not move an infinite m/s.

2. Readied actions occur before and/or during the action that triggered them, depending on what that action is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready).

So there's no reason why you can't ready an action to stop that fireball. Though the RAW AC you'd assign to it is unrealistically easy to hit. Probably should have a rule 0 of some sort to increase it, imho. A good part of this is the fact it is actually much smaller than a typicaly "fine" object (6" tall). If there were extended size categories Fireball's bead would probably be 2-4 categories smaller.

[Fitz10019]

Here's an update to Speed as AC. The earlier table stopped at the speed of an arrow, which was not the point of the exercise at all. Also, earlier, AC went up per 120, but it should be per 60 for a more consistent application, I think.

The updated formula: =TRUNC((Speed-60)/60)

By using range as speed, higher caster levels get better ACs to their fireball beads.

{table=header]-|Feet|speed AC|Fine|Base|Total AC
Normal speed|60|0
Hasted speed|120|1
Fireball CL5|600|9|8|10|27
Fireball CL6|640|9|8|10|27
Fireball CL7|680|10|8|10|28
Fireball CL8|720|11|8|10|29
Fireball CL9|760|11|8|10|29
Fireball CL10|800|12|8|10|30
Fireball CL11|840|13|8|10|31
Fireball CL12|880|13|8|10|31
Fireball CL13|920|14|8|10|32
Fireball CL14|960|15|8|10|33
Fireball CL15|1000|15|8|10|33
Fireball CL16|1040|16|8|10|34
Fireball CL17|1080|17|8|10|35
Fireball CL18|1120|17|8|10|35
Fireball CL19|1160|18|8|10|36
Fireball CL20|1200|19|8|10|37[/table]

For crunch/avoiding abuse, I'd say speed AC only stacks with size bonus to AC and circumstance bonuses (DM discretion).

Are these numbers reasonable? Should there be other factors besides speed and size?

[Flickerdart]

Haste gives a dodge bonus; a hasted creature has a higher AC because its heightened speed and reflexes let it duck out of the way of attacks.

A bead has no ability to duck away from anything, only a direction and a speed. We know that heading in a straight line at top speed (the Run action) actually reduces your AC, because it makes you unable to avoid attacks.

[Spuddles]

"I want to shoot at the spell" is a valid prepared action :)

Works for rays, orbs, and other ranged touch attack! Seems like it'd pretty badass way to counter a beholder. Could you make multiple attacks with greater manyshot? Legolas all those eyerays down so your party doesnt die.

Well some of the rays, anyway.

[Deophaun]

1. "Instantaneous" does not typically mean "within 0 seconds". It means within a very short period of time; a moment. So no, the bead does not move an infinite m/s.
It takes place in an instant. A. Single. Instant. To put it in terms of real-life physics, the shortest span of time there is. Light has traveled a single Planck length. Your fireball doesn't move infinite m/s, but it is close to around 8.4 octillion lightyears/s.

2. Readied actions occur before and/or during the action that triggered them, depending on what that action is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready).
Um, no.

The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.
There's no "and/or during." It takes place before, and before that fireball was 30 feet away from you, it did not exist.

So there's no reason why you can't ready an action to stop that fireball.
Provided, of course, you completely ignore RAW.

[Drachasor]

If we extended the size modifiers to Fine(II), Fine(III), and Fine(IV) (~3", 1.5" and .75"), then we'd have (a) +16, +32, and +64. Well, that's if we kept doubling.

Might just want to go up by 4s or 8s.
So, (b) +12, +16, +20
or (c) +16, +24, +32

So if the Fireball "bead" was Fine(IV), then it would have an AC of..
(a) 74
(b) 30
(c) 42

depending on what you used. Assuming you didn't treat it as running or something.

[Drachasor]

It takes place in an instant. A. Single. Instant. To put it in terms of real-life physics, the shortest span of time there is. Light has traveled a single Planck length. Your fireball doesn't move infinite m/s, but it is close to around 8.4 octillion lightyears/s.

Look up the word. An "instant" IS a short span of time. In D&D an arrow takes "an instant" to move and so does a sword swing. Both can be readied against.


Um, no.

There's no "and/or during." It takes place before, and before that fireball was 30 feet away from you, it did not exist.

Provided, of course, you completely ignore RAW.

You are ignoring RAW. READ THE WHOLE SECTION.


The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

You can't interrupt those activities if your action takes place before them. Similarly, he can't "continue" if he hasn't started. But let's look at particular examples, eh?


You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).


You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell"). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

These things clearly happen during the action the other party is taking. They also ruin it so the action does not resolve.

What you are arguing is that you can't ready an action to shoot someone who opens a door, because you'll fire before they start opening it. That's clearly not what the text is saying. You're taking the one line out of context.

Of course, if you want to be silly about it, we could always say you ready an action to "shoot the spell if it travels more than 1' from the caster". But that's insisting on a pedantic mindset that the rules clearly do not require.

[Scow2]

It takes place in an instant. A. Single. Instant. To put it in terms of real-life physics, the shortest span of time there is. Light has traveled a single Planck length. Your fireball doesn't move infinite m/s, but it is close to around 8.4 octillion lightyears/s.
An "Instant" in D&D is "Anything less than 6 seconds." If you're going to argue a fireball bead flies faster than light, so are the reflexes of a readied action and flight of the archer's arrows, which are also "instantaneous".

Readying an action to shoot a fireball bead has the readied action take place after the spell is cast but before the bead passes the 'intercept course' destination.

I'd simply add the caster's DEX to the AC of the fireball bead.

[cerin616]

I would rule this as yes. DND does weirder **** all the time.

[Thanatosia]

Here's an update to Speed as AC. The earlier table stopped at the speed of an arrow, which was not the point of the exercise at all. Also, earlier, AC went up per 120, but it should be per 60 for a more consistent application, I think.

The updated formula: =TRUNC((Speed-60)/60)

By using range as speed, higher caster levels get better ACs to their fireball beads.

{table=header]-|Feet|speed AC|Fine|Base|Total AC
Normal speed|60|0
Hasted speed|120|1
Fireball CL5|600|9|8|10|27
Fireball CL6|640|9|8|10|27
Fireball CL7|680|10|8|10|28
Fireball CL8|720|11|8|10|29
Fireball CL9|760|11|8|10|29
Fireball CL10|800|12|8|10|30
Fireball CL11|840|13|8|10|31
Fireball CL12|880|13|8|10|31
Fireball CL13|920|14|8|10|32
Fireball CL14|960|15|8|10|33
Fireball CL15|1000|15|8|10|33
Fireball CL16|1040|16|8|10|34
Fireball CL17|1080|17|8|10|35
Fireball CL18|1120|17|8|10|35
Fireball CL19|1160|18|8|10|36
Fireball CL20|1200|19|8|10|37[/table]

For crunch/avoiding abuse, I'd say speed AC only stacks with size bonus to AC and circumstance bonuses (DM discretion).

Are these numbers reasonable? Should there be other factors besides speed and size?
I really like this, and it gives numbers I find suits my expectations pretty well provided you rule away natural 20 always hitting in these kind of circumstances.... A really good archer (+7 hit bonus) can accomplish it with great luck (natural 20), an epic archer can accomplish it fairly consistantly vs a non-epic caster (Epic characters by their nature do the supernatural and absurd), but a near epic caster (cl20) can make his fireball a hard target even for an epic archer.

And you have a fairly logical reason that's consistant with the rules for the exact numbers achieved, while being relatively unlikely to result in extra crunch trying to add speed ac to everyday combat interactions outside of projectile interception. Win IMO.

[Sewercop]

This is meaningless to talk about when most people ignore raw.
Why not take it to the homebrew forum where it belongs now?

It is not raw, not rai and all it does are create worse rules.

[Icewraith]

"I ready my bow and arrow to interrupt the spellcaster. If he tries to cast fireball, I shoot the bead just before he launches it."

1: readied action
2: spellcraft check to determine what the spellcaster is casting. (if you have the skill you might want to make this anyways just to see if he's faking casting to trick you into wasting your readied action, or if he's using an illusion)
3: attack roll (either vs the spellcaster's ac (if not fireball) or the touch ac of the bead if fireball)

You could also try this with your own fireball spell...

"I ready my action to counterspell, if he tries to cast fireball I try to hit his bead with my fireball bead before he can launch it instead of the traditional counterspell"

It's riskier, but if you make your ranged attack roll you'll hit the opposing mage with your fireball and his own fireball, if you miss his fireball goes off but you still fireball him.

That might work by RAW, since the spell description explicitly states you need to aim the spell and requires a touch attack if you try to do something fancy with it-giving a readied action a point at which it can interrupt, i.e. before the spellcaster would make the attack roll. It's also RAW that when a fireball bead hits something, it goes off, so hitting a fireball bead with a fireball bead is provided for in the rules.

[AstralFire]

This is meaningless to talk about when most people ignore raw.
Why not take it to the homebrew forum where it belongs now?

It is not raw, not rai and all it does are create worse rules.

I'm sorry, at what point did we get so RAW-obsessed that discussing on-the-fly situational rules adjudications and house rules became 'Homebrew', a term usually reserved for detailed components and systems?

Yes, this is in house rule territory. This forum has discussed house rules extensively in the past.

[Fitz10019]

Okay, let's call it an I'm-no-longer-where-you-thought-I-was bonus.

I don't see a reason for a natural 20 to fail, especially as this will be a readied action. No one will be full attacking a fireball bead, getting 4 or more chances.

Suppose a 13th level wizard casts fireball, and a 13th-level ranger was ready for it. The fireball would have an AC of 32, by the speed table above. The ranger probably attacks with 13+5+1=19, so he needs a 13 or better on the d20. That seems low to me.

Drachasor's extension of Fine is a good idea. Perhaps the speed table should use Fine II (doubling), so +16 instead of +8.

One reason I think this is worth determining is if your party is harassed by a someone using a fireball wand again and again. There'd be no need for a spellcraft check in that example.

[Thanatosia]

I don't see a reason for a natural 20 to fail, especially as this will be a readied action.
Maybe if watching for fireball is your entire readied action, but if you try something like Icewraths "I ready to shoot when you try to cast any spell but if I detect that it's a fireball I shoot that instead" type scenario, then there is little action cost in readying the action as trying to interupt a caster is a viable action anyways. Although perhaps the better solution is to just not allow those kind of if-then-logic paths in your ready action to shoot either the caster or the pea.

[Scow2]

Maybe if watching for fireball is your entire readied action, but if you try something like Icewraths "I ready to shoot when you try to cast any spell but if I detect that it's a fireball I shoot that instead" type scenario, then there is little action cost in readying the action as trying to interupt a caster is a viable action anyways. Although perhaps the better solution is to just not allow those kind of if-then-logic paths in your ready action to shoot either the caster or the pea.

Readying an action is always at a cost, and the "Fireball" is always a highly-situational deal.

NEVER let a player take an action that requires a roll if it's impossible to succeed on at least a 20. - Doing so is 100% Jackass DMing.

[Fitz10019]

Yes, a readied action trigger should be simple.

[Zrak]

If you need a feat to catch an arrow in flight, I think you'd need one to shoot a fireball in flight at the least. This kind of makes it a moot point because who in their right mind would take 'shoot fireball' as one of their feats.

Rule of cool is cool and all

I mean, you're already playing an archer; if you're going to be strictly sub-par, why not at least be awesome about it?

[SiuiS]

Speed and AC
Y'all do remember that at a dead run, a character loses their dex bonus and also takes a penalty to AC, right? Or am I misremembering that?


Agreed, but there's a slight catch in that it's AC isn't exactly spelled out. You've got an object of a size not specified in game mechanical terms (but presumed to be very small), going at a speed not specified in game mechanical terms, made out of materials not defined in game mechanical terms.

Which means the DM has to pick an AC pretty much out of the air, so your results may vary.

Not really. You pick the size, use the AC mod, note the material is irrelevant and decide whether it is considered to have a dexterity score; likely, no, meaning it's either really easy to predict where it's going and lead it (dex 0, -5 AC) or it's just a regular speeding ball of explosion (dex 10, AC +/-0).


Sorry, not possible by RAW.

The way readied actions work is they occur before the event that triggered them takes place.

The way that spells (specifically those with instantaneous durations) work is that, once they are finished being cast, everything about them occurs simultaneously (defining targets, Reflex saves, damage, etc).

So, if you ready an action to hit a fireball, your readied action must occur before the spell actually goes into effect. In essence, you are trying to hit something that doesn't yet exist.

Unsure. A charge attack is isntantaneous movement and attack, but youc. An ready to move away when they get within X feet. Youc. Oils presumably do the same with the fireball bead.


Readying to shoot a fireball bead is a pretty specific condition. What if the wizard casts Scintillating Sphere instead?

Then you fail to shoot the fireball.


Presumably we're using a reasonable frame of reference, such as "the world"

That was more a "all actions are always occurring simultaneously by RAW, so arguments which are based on prescribing stop and go order to actions and turns are tenuous", I thought.

[Thanatosia]

Readying an action is always at a cost, and the "Fireball" is always a highly-situational deal.
Reading an action is already a cost, but if you are already going to ready an action to shoot the caster when he casts a spell, there is ZERO extra cost to go 'oh, unless he's casting fireball, in wich case I shoot the fireball instead". NO COST at all, it's a free add-on to your main readied action. So no, either make it *much* harder since you aren't paying any action cost, or make him ready to shoot the fireball only so that there is an action cost.

[killem2]

At the risk of bringing science/math into d&d lol..


Wouldn't a fireball travel faster than an arrow in the first place?

I mean if you consider a round to be 6 seconds, and at base levels, a fireball is at least 600ft range, and it can reach it's destination in 6 seconds travel time.


An arrow or bolt has barely over 1/6th the range and takes the same 6 seconds to get the same place.

[DeltaEmil]

At the risk of bringing science/math into d&d lol..


Wouldn't a fireball travel faster than an arrow in the first place?

I mean if you consider a round to be 6 seconds, and at base levels, a fireball is at least 600ft range, and it can reach it's destination in 6 seconds travel time.


An arrow or bolt has barely over 1/6th the range and takes the same 6 seconds to get the same place.No, because in the abstract 6 seconds combat round, you don't know how many seconds of that round are spend for casting, and how many other seconds the fireball is traveling to its destination. It could be that casting only takes a micro-second, but the fireball bead takes 5 seconds to reach its destination, no matter how far. It could also be that the bead travels at light speed or beyond.

D&D combat rounds are as already mentioned abstract, and should not really be considered definitive, since you can make such nonsense like the peasant railway, where you could travel many trillions of light years in six seconds if there is enough creatures to form a line and carry you along.

[AstralFire]

Does anyone else feel, looking at some of the responses to the thread, that this is how well-meaning game designers ended up accidentally making "non-casters can't have nice things"?

[Drachasor]

Does anyone else feel, looking at some of the responses to the thread, that this is how well-meaning game designers ended up accidentally making "non-casters can't have nice things"?

Eh, this whole thread is highly hypothetical since a readied action for this is almost impossible to correctly pull of (and it is easier to just ready an attack to disrupt the unknown spell). That would have to get fixed first.

Though I agree that coming from an overly "realistic" mindset is probably what caused the "non-casters can't have nice things" problem. Really if you started from the standpoint of casters and non-casters being equal, then you'd have a very different game. Probably one where different classes have different ways to attack/bluff/intimidate/etc spells.

[Ansem]

Sorry, not possible by RAW.

The way readied actions work is they occur before the event that triggered them takes place.

The way that spells (specifically those with instantaneous durations) work is that, once they are finished being cast, everything about them occurs simultaneously (defining targets, Reflex saves, damage, etc).

So, if you ready an action to hit a fireball, your readied action must occur before the spell actually goes into effect. In essence, you are trying to hit something that doesn't yet exist.
Should be possible from a logical point of view and therefor RAI as a fireball wont instantly blink into its target or go at Warp 5, same way an arrow isnt instantly in its target but still needs to travel the distance at humane speeds.

[Icewraith]

Note that the reason I'd let the if-then readied action slide is that the if-then action is merely an alternative way of achieving the intent of the main readied action, and there's only one such clause. The character also needs the skill to succeed on the spellcraft check and hit with the touch attack, which I would put at dc=10+ fine size modifier + casting character's dex bonus+any dodge or deflection bonus the casting character has.

A knowledgable character that has figured out a bunch of these tricks after a career of adventuring I might allow "I ready to disrupt his spell in the most effective way possible". However, there aren't a whole lot of other spells that are defeatable via their rules text in this fashion.

Also, from one point of view it's one less reason for everyone to use fireball. From the other, it's a reason for your characters to pump their initiative scores and prep fireball, because interrupting another spellcaster in this fashion is pretty badass.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

At the risk of bringing science/math into d&d lol..


Wouldn't a fireball travel faster than an arrow in the first place?

I mean if you consider a round to be 6 seconds, and at base levels, a fireball is at least 600ft range, and it can reach it's destination in 6 seconds travel time.


An arrow or bolt has barely over 1/6th the range and takes the same 6 seconds to get the same place.
You can still get rid of the fireball, though. Since your arrow and the fireball are racing towards one another, you don't have to beat the fireball. You just have to have enough time to hit it before it hits you. If the caster is 200 feet away and casts fireball, and your arrow hits it when it's 30 feet away, you're still safe from the fireball.

Does anyone else feel, looking at some of the responses to the thread, that this is how well-meaning game designers ended up accidentally making "non-casters can't have nice things"?
I think I agree. They don't put nearly as much effort into the actual physics of the magic system (which isn't cohesive in the slightest); if they did, casters would be much more manageable. Also, questions like this would be easier to answer.

Personally, I think this is a great idea for three reasons.

1. It's awesome.
2. It's clever, in the vein of "carry bags of flour as a Poor Man's Glitterdust".
3. Evocation is not the true strength of the wizard, anyway. So this doesn't depower them all that much.
Bonus. Martials need nice things!

[Scow2]

At the risk of bringing science/math into d&d lol..


Wouldn't a fireball travel faster than an arrow in the first place?

I mean if you consider a round to be 6 seconds, and at base levels, a fireball is at least 600ft range, and it can reach it's destination in 6 seconds travel time.


An arrow or bolt has barely over 1/6th the range and takes the same 6 seconds to get the same place.

A longbow has a range of over one thousand feet - Remember to multiply the range increment by 10!

[ericgrau]

Still means you have to aim at the precise part of empty space a little in front of the tiny fast moving bead. Crazy. But then there are some crazy snipers.

More and more I'm leaning towards an extraordinary AC but not truly impossible. Bear in mind 21 AC is virtually impossible for any ordinary folk. 41 AC is impossible for a trick shooter who makes the normal "impossible" seem like child's play. I'm leaning towards 30-50 AC.

[Scow2]

Still means you have to aim at the precise part of empty space a little in front of the tiny fast moving bead. Crazy. But then there are some crazy snipers.

More and more I'm leaning towards an extraordinary AC but not truly impossible. Bear in mind 21 AC is virtually impossible for any ordinary folk. 41 AC is impossible for a trick shooter who makes the normal "impossible" seem like child's play. I'm leaning towards 30-50 AC.

21 AC is outright impossible for ordinary folk. I'd use AC 18+Caster's Dex mod for AC.

[ericgrau]

I can throw a coin into the air and it's hard to hit. That doesn't mean I need any special skill to do it. I think it's a very high AC because it's such a tricky special shot not because of much, if any, skill on the part of the caster.

There is a point to all this, btw. If you get the fireball early in the launch you not only save your party and disrupt the spell, you boom the enemy party. 2 for 1 deal. Damaging one foe is annoying, while damaging the whole party can ruin their day. And with metamagic fireball remains useful into high levels when you might be able to pull off such a shot. Spells for fire protection exist, but they aren't 24 hours so you need advance notice to think of using them. And the type of monsters or NPCs that have fireball are more likely to all have class levels and so unlikely to have any other monstrous fire protection.

[AstralFire]

I can throw a coin into the air and it's hard to hit. That doesn't mean I need any special skill to do it. I think it's a very high AC because it's such a tricky special shot not because of much, if any, skill on the part of the caster.

There is a point to all this, btw. If you get the fireball early in the launch you not only save your party and disrupt the spell, you boom the enemy party. 2 for 1 deal. Damaging one foe is annoying, while damaging the whole party can ruin their day. And with metamagic fireball remains useful into high levels when you might be able to pull off such a shot. Spells for fire protection exist, but they aren't 24 hours so you need advance notice to think of using them. And the type of monsters or NPCs that have fireball are more likely to all have class levels and so unlikely to have any other monstrous fire protection.

Honestly, all of this discussion makes me wonder if there are any detailed homebrew misfiring rules for spells. Giving spells nasty backlashes if someone successfully interrupts would be pretty awesome.

[Icewraith]

There's always Archmage Improved Counterspell, which (IIRC) lets you reflect any spell you counterspell back on the original caster instead of just cancelling it.

[AstralFire]

There's always Archmage Improved Counterspell, which (IIRC) lets you reflect any spell you counterspell back on the original caster instead of just cancelling it.

That totally defeats the point.

[Seerow]

That totally defeats the point.

What you mean all of your archers aren't archmages?

[Fitz10019]

21 AC is outright impossible for ordinary folk. I'd use AC 18+Caster's Dex mod for AC.

I don't see how the caster's dex applies to defense after the bead is launched.

I suggest 18+CL if you don't like the speed AC idea. That way you don't need a table, and higher-level casters get a benefit.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I assume it's the caster's Dex because a clumsily-launched fireball is easier to target than one swiftly and precisely launched at the target. Less telegraphed.

[Icewraith]

You're trying to hit the bead right before the caster launches it (so it's centered on the caster). Therefore I assume that the caster's dex and any dodge or deflection bonuses would make that task more difficult.