Are Psions Overpowered?

[Reddish Mage]

Moving this from the Geekery thread to allow the subject more breathing room, I would like to ask about how Psion's compare to a wizard/sorcerer.


A high level psion is an incredibly potent force to introduce to a battlefield. As a class, they can "nova" extremely well (meaning blow all their resources very quickly to produce devastating results). To a lot of players and DM's this makes them seem overpowered, when psionic powers are really only as broken as the spells they imitate. A psion who runs themselves out of power points is a commoner, just like the wizard. And a psion who has no powers that apply to their current situation is just as helpless.

True the powers are equivalent to spell powers. However, assuming Laurin was 20, it appears Laurin has plenty more Power Points at a minimum even if we assume Wormhole is 9 . A Point system, in general, is a more flexible system then spell slots, and the ability to augment seem to give Psion's a lot of flexibility in how they use their power. Compared to a sorcerer what would they sacrifice to get that flexibility?

The fact that a Psion would blow their entire power if they keep spamming powers doesn't seem enough of a sacrifice. After all, a Psion could also choose to conserve their energy and have as many effects in a day as a sorcerer, but can also choose to blow their energy fast. If they really can "nova" effectively against a big threat, that would appear to mean the Psion has a great deal more power (when desired) while retaining the flexibility of having just as many powers in both variety and number of uses (when necessary) as a sorcerer.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Could the edge be in metamagic vs augmentation?

A sorcerer can do far more damage with a metamagicked fireball (I hear) than he can with a spell from the level said meta-fireball is occupying. Is augmentation as efficient as that, or worse? And can psionics grab metamagic-equivalent feats?

If metamagic is better than augmentation, that might serve to balance things slightly.

On the other hand I would not be surprised to hear that psions are better than sorcerers. It's 3.5 after all, and class tiers are its bread and butter.

Grey Wolf

[Nimin]

Psions also have a pretty limited array of spells compared to Sorcerers and Batmans. That could be their weakness, more focused but less selection.

[Twilight Jack]

It's probably also worth noting that psionic powers tend to be weaker than arcane spells of equivalent level. Manifesters can augment their powers to bridge this gap, but that begins to eat into their power point reserves much more quickly. They've got a lot of flexibility in regards to how and when they use their resources, but their top end power level is lower.

Even if some psionic powers are the equal of their corresponding spells, it can't be forgotten that there are dozens more spells of each level than there are powers. Wizards/Sorcerers have a much bigger menu through which to pore.

[gooddragon1]

No, if a mailman sorceror were in Laurin's place with equivalent level he would have dropped 1 character/round (or more) if he really cared to (limited wish: your next attack automatically hits). Consider that a properly built mailman deals 1k+ no save, no SR, no resist, no immunity, hit incorporeal, functions in AMF, technically not magic so no magic immunity, ranged touch attack damage.

[littlebum2002]

I've never played any psionics , at least nothing more than a dip level or two. What bothers me is this:

a Level 17 wizard can cast Wish once, maybe twice a day.

A level 18 sorceror could cast it 3, maybe 4 times a day.

A level 17 Psion can cast Reality Revision a MINIMUM of 14 times a day.

(Obviously, substitute any 9th level spells or powers, I just used these for clarity).

It just always bothers me that the higher level powers are so incredibly cheap.

[gooddragon1]

I've never played any psionics , at least nothing more than a dip level or two. What bothers me is this:

a Level 17 wizard can cast Wish once, maybe twice a day.

A level 18 sorceror could cast it 3, maybe 4 times a day.

A level 17 Psion can cast Reality Revision a MINIMUM of 14 times a day.

(Obviously, substitute any 9th level spells or powers, I just used these for clarity).

It just always bothers me that the higher level powers are so incredibly cheap.

No, that's incorrect. A wizard can shapechange into a zodar. Then he uses wish 1/round for free.

The psion must spend 70,000 XP to do what you just described.

Also, bad wizards "Think with their spell slots". Good wizards solve an encounter with 1 or 2 spells.

[SaintRidley]

Could the edge be in metamagic vs augmentation?

A sorcerer can do far more damage with a metamagicked fireball (I hear) than he can with a spell from the level said meta-fireball is occupying. Is augmentation as efficient as that, or worse? And can psionics grab metamagic-equivalent feats?

If metamagic is better than augmentation, that might serve to balance things slightly.

On the other hand I would not be surprised to hear that psions are better than sorcerers. It's 3.5 after all, and class tiers are its bread and butter.

Grey Wolf

There are metapsionic feats, but those eat your psionic focus and cost power points which could be spent augmenting instead. Metamagic feats are generally strictly superior to metapsionic feats or augmentation.

There's also scaling - Magic scales automatically with level. Psionics doesn't. A wizard or sorcerer can make a fireball, and that fireball automatically improves its damage every time they improve their caster level until you reach the spell's cap. A psion has to augment to do that. Wizards and sorcerers get scaling in the number of targets for many spells. Psions have to augment to do that a lot of the time.

As for tiers, psions are listed tier 2 along with the sorcerer. The only psionic class which is tier 1 is the Spell-to-Power Erudite because it basically learns everything. Regular Erudite is the only other psionic class that's tier 2.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Psion 20 can be expected to have 400 pp at intelligence 22, 450 at intelligence 34. They can manifest a 9th level power 25 times per day before they run out so in pure endurance Psion wins over wizard.

2) Wizard 20 has access to more spells known than the Psion, and far far more books from which to draw from. Thus Wizard has a bazillion more tricks than the Psion does.

3) Augmenting is inferior to metamagic, or even plain high caster level. Add in all the metamagic-reducers that came up over those bazillion splatbooks and you got the wizard becoming so much better... assuming the wizard is prepared.



No, that's incorrect. A wizard can shapechange into a zodar. Then he uses wish 1/round for free.
No, that's incorrect. A wizard will shapechange into a zodar and use wish once. Each time he shapechanges into a zodar thereafter, the wish will be expended; nothing in the description of shapechange says that limited-use abilities are recovered if you change in and out of a form, or even with separate castings of the spell.

Remember, if you want to exploit RAW, the DM can also do it.

[Dark_Nohn]

Not really.
I've been considering calculating how much PP Laurin has spent so far today. I haven't yet, but I'm pretty sure it's about 500+, and considering most pre-epic casters max out around 400-ish, there's some obvious trickery going on here.

Also, though silence and immobilization don't affect them, they still need to do concentrate checks to manifest if they've been taking damage, and lets not forget that in V's loadout includes Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html).

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes. But Wizards are more overpowered.

Laurin seems OP because she's probably epic, and if not she's at least incredibly rich and very high level.

[SaintRidley]

Not really.
I've been considering calculating how much PP Laurin has spent so far today. I haven't yet, but I'm pretty sure it's about 500+, and considering most pre-epic casters max out around 400-ish, there's some obvious trickery going on here.


Nowhere near 500+. She's manifested 21 powers on panel. Assuming she's level 20, she'd have to have manifested every one of those with enough augmentation to require them to cost 20 points to even get reasonably close to 500 - and she'd be at 420 (454 after the two negative levels).

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16573508&postcount=851) goes over her loadout quite well. Again, assuming she's level 20, she's used 199, lost 34, and used an unknown amount on some unidentified powers. She's gone through somewhere between half and 3/4 of her points. She's not really low, yet.

[Gray Mage]

Not really no. Psions are on par with Sorcerer and both can spam the same move, but wizards have flexibility and options, which are better. It's just that she's spamming a good power, while other casters usually have a suboptimal selection.

Edit: That said, most fullcasters are overpowered, Psions incluided.

[AmberVael]

On the other hand I would not be surprised to hear that psions are better than sorcerers. It's 3.5 after all, and class tiers are its bread and butter.

They're about the same. If you don't optimize too much, the psion might be a little better. Might. If you optimize, the Sorcerer is far better- they just get really good spells.


Psions also have a pretty limited array of spells compared to Sorcerers and Batmans. That could be their weakness, more focused but less selection.

They definitely lose out to Wizard, but not to Sorcerer. Technically the Sorcerer has more spells... but frankly, cantrips don't count, and if you don't count them the Psion actually has a slighty the advantage in powers known (add in their bonus feats and tendency to pick up Expanded Knowledge, and they definitely have more without some kind of spell known addition on the Sorcerer).


It's probably also worth noting that psionic powers tend to be weaker than arcane spells of equivalent level. Manifesters can augment their powers to bridge this gap, but that begins to eat into their power point reserves much more quickly. They've got a lot of flexibility in regards to how and when they use their resources, but their top end power level is lower.

Even if some psionic powers are the equal of their corresponding spells, it can't be forgotten that there are dozens more spells of each level than there are powers. Wizards/Sorcerers have a much bigger menu through which to pore.

Eh, I find this to be half right and half wrong. Many psionic powers are just flat out better and more versatile than spells, encompassing multiple spells within a single power through augmentation or having advantages over their equivalent spells. Yeah, you sometimes have to spend more power points to use an augmented power, but take Psionic Charm, for example. You can spend 1 power point to mimic Charm Person, or 7 power points to mimic Charm Monster.

The damage powers are also significantly better than damage spells- crystal shard is pretty much Orb of Force at level 1, while the energy based powers can use any energy type on the fly, with a variety of minor perks depending on which you choose. Add in amazing stuff like Touchsight, Schism, and Decerebrate, and it's hard to argue that powers are generally worse than spells.

What it really comes down to is that last part you said- quantity. There are just so many more spells. Even if you could argue that the majority powers are better than the majority of spells, there are still enough gems in the massive spell list that a well built spellcaster is more powerful. Add in the metamagic advantage and there isn't any contest.

[gooddragon1]

1) Psion 20 can be expected to have 400 pp at intelligence 22, 450 at intelligence 34. They can manifest a 9th level power 25 times per day before they run out so in pure endurance Psion wins over wizard.

2) Wizard 20 has access to more spells known than the Psion, and far far more books from which to draw from. Thus Wizard has a bazillion more tricks than the Psion does.

3) Augmenting is inferior to metamagic, or even plain high caster level. Add in all the metamagic-reducers that came up over those bazillion splatbooks and you got the wizard becoming so much better... assuming the wizard is prepared.



No, that's incorrect. A wizard will shapechange into a zodar and use wish once. Each time he shapechanges into a zodar thereafter, the wish will be expended; nothing in the description of shapechange says that limited-use abilities are recovered if you change in and out of a form, or even with separate castings of the spell.

Remember, if you want to exploit RAW, the DM can also do it.
Usually it's assumed you changed into a different zodar but okay:


A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

XP Cost

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP...When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
No GP cost or any other costs.

Use-activated or continuous
Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp

Spell has XP cost
Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge

If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.


At minimum, it will cost over 2 million XP to create a use activated magic item of wish using a spell like ability. Scratch that, it will cost nothing. 1/round.

Use gate to get a solar to grant the wish if you want to be a stickler.

[Gray Mage]

Nah, the wizard uses his first Zodar wish to gain a Candle of Invocation and then simply gate in an efreet for three new wishes.:smallwink:

[Porthos]

The real reason Laurin seems waaaay overpowered is that she is being played-semi optimally in this encounter. Which is a bit unusual in OotS. :smallwink: Thus the one eyed woman being king in the land of the blind and all that.

If she was being played 'optimally', she'd probably be opening up Wormholes directly underneath people's feet with the other end of the aperture directly over a volcano or something similar (with said aperture being so wide that people can't get out of it easily).

Or spamming out that stun power.

Or doing various other Battlefield Control measures.

Let's also not forget though that she is either Epic or near-Epic. Most spellcasters are going to seem like Bad News in such a situation.

[Everyl]

What seems funny to me about the "Psionics are overpowered, isn't Laurin out of points yet?" complaining is that, if she were a sorcerer, people would instead be saying, "Why is she holding back? She's hardly used any of her 6th through 9th level slots!"

[Scrynor]

I've always found psions to not necessarily be OP compared to wizards or sorcerers but definitely be more of a detriment to a fun campaign. They tend to draw players who love their nova capability so you get a sack of crap character who hoards power and never contributes to the group until they can nova the boss. At least power-hoarding wizards and sorcerers only conserve their upper level spells slots. Psions can conserve *everything*. It sucks.

[angry_bear]

3.0 they were ridiculously overpowered, 3.5 they were balanced out. At least from what I can tell anyway; haven't really dealt with them in a while.

[RMS Oceanic]

Actually I think the reason Laurin seems overpowered is because of when she was introduced.

Even by the time of 910, the Order have been adventuring all day: Arranging Deus ex Mechane, looking for Girard's Gate, fighting the Linear Guild, discovering the events of Lunchtime, developing a pasty appearance, being Microcosm'd, Nuking the Fridge and fighting a Sand Elemental, which is a lot for a party to go through. Until that point, as far as we know Laurin hadn't done anything that day. This is compounded by the design of Psions making it easy for them to go "nova" - expend all their powers in short succession to devastate their foes - in a way arcane magic has trouble doing.

So for this one battle, she has been spending everything she has at her fingertips, whereas the average battle is supposed to expend only a few spells. There is a price to going nova though: A psion that blows her high level powers will have very little left in reserve, whereas a Wizard or Sorcerer who drops five or six meteor swarms in a battle still has the remaining spell slots left intact.

[Byzantine2]

What seems funny to me about the "Psionics are overpowered, isn't Laurin out of points yet?" complaining is that, if she were a sorcerer, people would instead be saying, "Why is she holding back? She's hardly used any of her 6th through 9th level slots!"

Except those gates are 8th or 9th level powers.

[Everyl]

Except those gates are 8th or 9th level powers.

Those gates are a homebrew adaptation of a 2e power. It's entirely possible that the power has a lower base level and has to be augmented to accomplish feats on par with Teleportation Circle. Teleporting the triceratops and its passengers around the area is well within the capability of Dimension Door, and I suspect she only used Wormhole because it makes for a more interesting visual when Rich draws it.

A sorcerer could accomplish everything she's done on-panel except self-healing and teleporting allies in from afar using solely SRD spells and still have more than 75% of their spells, including nearly all of their level 6+ slots, remaining.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

It all comes down to book support; the arcane casters have a bazillion books. The psion only has half a dozen at best.




At minimum, it will cost over 2 million XP to create a use activated magic item of wish using a spell like ability. Scratch that, it will cost nothing. 1/round.
Nope. Any magic item that would cost over 200.000 gp is an Epic item and Wish can't create epic items.

No GP cost or any other costs.
Nope, a Zodar's wish is supernatural, not spell-like. Were it spell-like, Shapechange would not mimic it at all.

simply gate in an efreet for three new wishes.
1% chance you get a noble one. How many candles are you willing to waste? Of course, you can go for Pit Fiend or Solar, but then the chances they've used anti-gate defenses out of their alloted treasure, their own spells or have already used their Wish are pretty high.

[Katuko]

A sorcerer could accomplish everything she's done on-panel except self-healing and teleporting allies in from afar using solely SRD spells and still have more than 75% of their spells, including nearly all of their level 6+ slots, remaining.
Yeah, I've been wondering about this. People say she is overpowered, but that is only because wormhole is, on paper, a high-level spell. If this was any other comic, I would just take "can make portals" as a natural ability that she can spam at will, just as I don't lift an eyebrow when Colonel Mustang from Fullmetal Alchemist creates an inferno of flame at will. It's just what he does, burning people. His weakness is said to be rain, but in a dry area he will simply never run out of flame. The same way I don't expect Laurin to be all "darn, I'm out of PP, I can't even lift an apple with my thoughts now". I expect her to maybe say "I'm running low, T, we should retreat" and then portal out after combating V for a while.

Now, if Laurin had been on her 15th usage of Disintegrate or something, I would have a problem with it. But "merely" a transportation power she uses for short range? Eh. It doesn't seem much different than being on a mount to begin with, really. She just used it to maneuver a bit better.

Roy's more overpowered, in a sense, when he cleaves dinosaurs and their riders in half in one swing. Or V, devastating mooks with Fireball and Chain Lightning. I expected V to have the required blasting spells for dealing with a high amount of people, and I expect Laurin - as a high-level antagonist and apparently designated transporter of the team- to still have some juice left; especially since psions draw from a point pool and not specific spell slots. Still, in a 1v1 duel I believe Quickened actions are better than a Psion's augmentation anyways, isn't it?

[factotum]

Teleporting the triceratops and its passengers around the area is well within the capability of Dimension Door, and I suspect she only used Wormhole because it makes for a more interesting visual when Rich draws it.


Teleporting Tarquin's entire army plus at least three dinosaurs, though? That's not so much within Dimension Door's capabilities. Even transporting a triceratops plus two other people via Dimension Door would require a caster level of 18, so you'd expect a psionic ability that could replicate that effect to be quite expensive.

[Trillium]

Those gates are a homebrew adaptation of a 2e power. It's entirely possible that the power has a lower base level and has to be augmented to accomplish feats on par with Teleportation Circle. Teleporting the triceratops and its passengers around the area is well within the capability of Dimension Door, and I suspect she only used Wormhole because it makes for a more interesting visual when Rich draws it.

A sorcerer could accomplish everything she's done on-panel except self-healing and teleporting allies in from afar using solely SRD spells and still have more than 75% of their spells, including nearly all of their level 6+ slots, remaining.

As I understand, Dimension Door would cause the 3ceraptops to lose momentum, which Tarquin needed to ram Bloodfeast. As such, Wormhole was much more efficient.

[Yuki Akuma]

As I understand, Dimension Door would cause the 3ceraptops to lose momentum, which Tarquin needed to ram Bloodfeast. As such, Wormhole was much more efficient.

Momentum isn't a thing in D&D. All they needed to do was teleport ten feet away and they could do the bullrush gore attack just fine.

[Hecuba]

Moving this from the Geekery thread to allow the subject more breathing room, I would like to ask about how Psion's compare to a wizard/sorcerer.
[...]
Compared to a sorcerer what would they sacrifice to get that flexibility?

There are a couple of things.

There are exceptions, but as a rule, psionic abilities are slightly less powerful than equal level spells (without augmentation).
Psionics has fewer powers to select from. This is comperable to the gap between a sorceror selecting spells from core only and a sorceror selecting spells between all 3.5 splat books.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Dimension Door does not allow you to take any other actions after using it (not just casting it). So it can't be D-Door just for this.

Teleport and Greater Teleport (and D-Door) have a limit of one additional medium creature per three caster levels, with each size category doubling the slots the creature takes up. Thus teleporting an army is beyond them.

Teleportation Circle may or may not be wide enough for a triceratops as it's only 5 ft. In any case, it has a 10-minute casting time. OTOH, it is permanent.

Worldwalk opens a temporary portal like Gate, except it can also be used for the same plane, or even other worlds in the same plane. It is 9th level and is effectively identical to Laurin's wormhole.



Thus Laurin's wormhole is probably a 9th level power, requiring 17pp per casting.

[Everyl]

Teleporting Tarquin's entire army plus at least three dinosaurs, though? That's not so much within Dimension Door's capabilities. Even transporting a triceratops plus two other people via Dimension Door would require a caster level of 18, so you'd expect a psionic ability that could replicate that effect to be quite expensive.

I mentioned Teleportation Circle in my first post already. Laurin's Concentration-duration Wormhole is actually much less effective than a standard 10 minutes/caster level Teleportation Circle for army-moving purposes, though Wormhole seems to get around the 10 minute casting (or manifesting, for the SRD psionic version) time.

To cover what Laurin's done on-panel using sorcery, she'd need:
Detect Thoughts
Hold Person
Dimension Door
Teleport (maybe; exact ranges aren't clear for some of her hops)
Telekinesis
Disintegrate
Mass Hold Person
Teleportation Circle

And from outside the SRD Sor/Wis spell list:
A few healing potions
A custom "Teleport ally to me" spell.

It's not a particularly optimized build, but nobody in OOTS (besides *maybe* Tarquin) is optimized. Also, several of the spells I substituted in might actually be more effective than whatever powers Laurin used on-panel, since her area stun effect didn't seem to leave the Order helpless for coup de grace attacks the way Mass Hold Person would; these were just the best substitutes I could find in a quick glance through the SRD.

Hypothetical Sorcerer Laurin is probably hurting for 4th and 5th level slots, but still has plenty of ammo of all other types. Actual In-Comic Laurin, even if you interpret her homebrew powers *very* generously in her favor, is quite likely at less than half a tank by now. She's not especially close to running dry, but is a lot closer than an equivalent-build arcane caster would be.

[gooddragon1]

It all comes down to book support; the arcane casters have a bazillion books. The psion only has half a dozen at best.




Nope. Any magic item that would cost over 200.000 gp is an Epic item and Wish can't create epic items.

Nope, a Zodar's wish is supernatural, not spell-like. Were it spell-like, Shapechange would not mimic it at all.

1% chance you get a noble one. How many candles are you willing to waste? Of course, you can go for Pit Fiend or Solar, but then the chances they've used anti-gate defenses out of their alloted treasure, their own spells or have already used their Wish are pretty high.

You know I can't seem to find that in the rules about wish not being able to create epic items. Maybe it might be a caster level limitation in most cases but not here. I also would note that you are confusing djinn with efreet. Efreeti always have 3 wishes. Djinn only do in the case of noble djinn.

Lastly, I noted a contingency where you gate in something with wish as an SLA and use it's SLA rather than shapechange.

[Reddish Mage]

No, if a mailman sorceror were in Laurin's place with equivalent level he would have dropped 1 character/round (or more) if he really cared to (limited wish: your next attack automatically hits). Consider that a properly built mailman deals 1k+ no save, no SR, no resist, no immunity, hit incorporeal, functions in AMF, technically not magic so no magic immunity, ranged touch attack damage.


No, that's incorrect. A wizard can shapechange into a zodar. Then he uses wish 1/round for free.

The psion must spend 70,000 XP to do what you just described.

I'd like to hear the properly built mailman build but that and the Zodar transformation, and similar stratagems are clear cases of overpowered munchkinisms. I realize that there is not a clear line to when a build is "overpowered" and it depends on the game group, that spellcasters in general are overpowered compared to the rest of the group, but this sort of thing clearly counts.



Also, bad wizards "Think with their spell slots". Good wizards solve an encounter with 1 or 2 spells.

There's a lot you can do with the creative application of spells. Of course, as far as this is the case we have not seen any good wizards in OOTS, nor can I think of a webcomic in which we see that sort of thing in action. Could you give examples of a wizard solving some high level problems with one or two spells? Perhaps the ones the OOTS encountered…


[Edit- Actually this is pretty obvious. Encounters are so very often easily "solved" by the wizard using any of the variety spells that will disable one or more of the opponents (I take it by "solving" you mean to insure the encounter will be resolved in the party's favor). The question then becomes how to make these spells effective enough that they will be highly likely to work against the high-level opponent or to make sure that you are prepared for contingencies.

As an alternative, creatives uses of spells can often bypass often bypass normal resistances or provide the rest of the party with the needed tactical advantage.]


Actually I think the reason Laurin seems overpowered is because of when she was introduced…

This is compounded by the design of Psions making it easy for them to go "nova" - expend all their powers in short succession to devastate their foes - in a way arcane magic has trouble doing.

So for this one battle, she has been spending everything she has at her fingertips, whereas the average battle is supposed to expend only a few spells. There is a price to going nova though: A psion that blows her high level powers will have very little left in reserve, whereas a Wizard or Sorcerer who drops five or six meteor swarms in a battle still has the remaining spell slots left intact.

Can you explain? I haven't ever seen Psionics in action since 2nd edition and I don't understand how augmentation is so much better than metamagic to allow a Psion to go "Nova" and devastate their foes.

[Sky_Schemer]

To me it is a matter of flexibility and adaptability.

Wizards have the entire spell list to choose from, as has been pointed out many times. But they have to prepare what they need, and if they get it wrong it's costly. You can mitigate by generalizing, holding slots back, and so on, but you are at your best when you know roughly what you are getting in to.

Sorcerors have fewer spells but can use them more often. They trade adaptability for flexibility. Your sorceror is good at one or two things at first, and maybe at three or four things later in life, but that's about it. And, eventually they run out of high level spells.

Psions are a big battery. They can spend their points where they need it, and go nova or spam a power ad nauseam until are dry. They are super-flexible, but with an even less adaptable base set. Those powers can be augmented, though, as needed for a particular situation. The end result is that they can spend higher level effective spells, or drop back to lower level spells, or a balance between the two, or increase their effect or DC, over and over to suit the situation. And some of the powers let you adapt the energy type on the fly to get around resistances and the like.

What bugs me with psionics are the weird save-or-suck powers, particularly those with effects that are hard to reverse. For example, if you fail your save on Fuse Flesh (which can be augmented to boost the DC), then what? It's not fatal, but it may as well be.

[Gray Mage]

I'd like to hear the properly built mailman build but that and the Zodar transformation, and similar stratagems are clear cases of overpowered munchkinisms. I realize that there is not a clear line to when a build is "overpowered" and it depends on the game group, that spellcasters in general are overpowered compared to the rest of the group, but this sort of thing clearly counts.


A mailman build is by far not the worst that can be done, though. It can do a lot of damage, but "just" that. There are melee builds that can do a whole lot of damage as well, although more limited. Spells can do much more. Anyway, a link (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181) for you.



There's a lot you can do with the creative application of spells. Of course, as far as this is the case we have not seen any good wizards in OOTS, nor can I think of a webcomic in which we see that sort of thing in action. Could you give examples of a wizard solving some high level problems with one or two spells? Perhaps the ones the OOTS encountered…


[Edit- Actually this is pretty obvious. Encounters are so very often easily "solved" by the wizard using any of the variety spells that will disable one or more of the opponents (I take it by "solving" you mean to insure the encounter will be resolved in the party's favor). The question then becomes how to make these spells effective enough that they will be highly likely to work against the high-level opponent or to make sure that you are prepared for contingencies.


Sometimes it involves targetting the opponents weak saves. Some high level opponents have a very small will or fort saves compared to spell DCs. But keep in mind that there are a lot of spells that don't allow for saves or that bring more options to the table, like calling effects and shapechange and the like.

Sure, sometimes it's very cheesy, but other times the straightfoward use of a spell is more then enough, such as using charm person to bypass social encounters, to using forcecage to take enemies that don't have extraordinary movement out of the fight completely to using Shapechange or divine power plus other self only buffs to be a better melee then the party fighter.

Two (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876) more (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) threads that may be in your interest.

[Friv]

Dimension Door does not allow you to take any other actions after using it (not just casting it). So it can't be D-Door just for this.

Teleport and Greater Teleport (and D-Door) have a limit of one additional medium creature per three caster levels, with each size category doubling the slots the creature takes up. Thus teleporting an army is beyond them.

Teleportation Circle may or may not be wide enough for a triceratops as it's only 5 ft. In any case, it has a 10-minute casting time. OTOH, it is permanent.

Worldwalk opens a temporary portal like Gate, except it can also be used for the same plane, or even other worlds in the same plane. It is 9th level and is effectively identical to Laurin's wormhole.



Thus Laurin's wormhole is probably a 9th level power, requiring 17pp per casting.

Or alternately Laurin has two sizes of wormhole, a small one for herself and her adventuring party and a large one for moving armies around.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or alternately Laurin has two sizes of wormhole, a small one for herself and her adventuring party and a large one for moving armies around.

I believe that is what augmentation is for. The psionic power is, say, 5th level (don't quote me on this, it's only for the example), and when cast as 5th, it only lets humanoids through. The augmentation runs the whole gamut up to "allows armies 8 abreast" for the amount of power it would take to cast a 9th. Then somewhere between the two extremes is the amount of PP that would allow a triceratops and three people to go through (7th?).

If that were the case - and let me hedge again by clarifying I'm pulling the numbers out of my nether regions, so TBH IMnpHO BTW YMMV - then she has spent even less PPs than many assume.

Grey Wolf

[gooddragon1]

I'd like to hear the properly built mailman build but that and the Zodar transformation, and similar stratagems are clear cases of overpowered munchkinisms. I realize that there is not a clear line to when a build is "overpowered" and it depends on the game group, that spellcasters in general are overpowered compared to the rest of the group, but this sort of thing clearly counts.




There's a lot you can do with the creative application of spells. Of course, as far as this is the case we have not seen any good wizards in OOTS, nor can I think of a webcomic in which we see that sort of thing in action. Could you give examples of a wizard solving some high level problems with one or two spells? Perhaps the ones the OOTS encountered…


[Edit- Actually this is pretty obvious. Encounters are so very often easily "solved" by the wizard using any of the variety spells that will disable one or more of the opponents (I take it by "solving" you mean to insure the encounter will be resolved in the party's favor). The question then becomes how to make these spells effective enough that they will be highly likely to work against the high-level opponent or to make sure that you are prepared for contingencies.

As an alternative, creatives uses of spells can often bypass often bypass normal resistances or provide the rest of the party with the needed tactical advantage.]

Not using incantatrix:

Sorceror 19/Sanctified One of Kord 1
Something with the dragonblood subtype or human and a feat that grants the dragonblood subtype

Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Twin Spell
Transdimensional Spell
Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire)
Rapid Metamagic
Practical Metamagic (Maximize Spell)

Rod of Quicken (Greater)

15d6->90 damage maximized
135 damage empowered
270 damage twinned
540 damage quickened with 2 of them

The damage is untyped, it is not subject to DR or energy resistance/immunity/w.e, it can hit incorporeal, it can be shot into an AMF, it is dealt over 4 shots of 135 damage each so you can drop suboptimal/wounded characters, it does not allow SR, it ignores magic immunity, it hits touch AC.

540 damage would drop 1 character/round and even 270 would do it. If you have high enough charisma you have extra slots.

If you use incantatrix you cheat on energy admixture for 1080 damage.

===

How to solve encounters with 2 spells or less cast in the encounter.
20 explosive runes on an arrow (on adhesive bound stamps). V readies an action to cast dispel magic at minimum caster level of 5. Haley targets a 5 foot square and shoots. V's caster level is probably more than 12 but I'll say 12. That's a DC 23 to meet for dispel. Assume V took arcane mastery feat. V takes a 10 to get 15 on the dispel check and fails all of them automatically. Magic is simultaneous not sequential in this case because each stamp is a separate entity rather than 1 target with many spells on it (the explosive runes are not cast on the arrow they are cast on individual stamps which are attached to the arrow). If V is not confident enough in Haley's abilities to hit a 5 foot square then V could have a summon hold the stamps and run at the enemies.

The enemies within a 10 foot radius take 120d6 damage with a reflex save for half. This solves most encounters with only 1 spell cast in combat (dispel magic).

V used an epic teleport spell to move the entirety of Hinjo's fleet.

Durkon used water walking to help his allies escape a horde of natives.

There's probably more examples.


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

[Nimin]

Wait, dispel magic can set off explosive runes? I didn't know that.

[Jekub]

There's a lot you can do with the creative application of spells. Of course, as far as this is the case we have not seen any good wizards in OOTS, nor can I think of a webcomic in which we see that sort of thing in action. Could you give examples of a wizard solving some high level problems with one or two spells? Perhaps the ones the OOTS encountered…

I can't believe nobody have referenced yest this little gem:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html

[Everyl]

What bugs me with psionics are the weird save-or-suck powers, particularly those with effects that are hard to reverse. For example, if you fail your save on Fuse Flesh (which can be augmented to boost the DC), then what? It's not fatal, but it may as well be.

Arcane magic has its share of spells in that category, too. Fuse Flesh is basically an extra-creepy, Fort-based Hold Person; it lasts 1 round/level, and is dispellable. At the same level, arcane casters get Flesh to Stone, which really does basically kill someone, and can only be reversed by a single specific spell.

Arcane magic covered a lot of basic, "generic" magical effects, so psionics got more detailed descriptions. Another commonly-cited "overpowered" power is Decerebrate, which is the same level as Finger of Death, but gives 1d4 days to cast Greater Restoration before death occurs. This happens a lot throughout psionics - equivalent or slightly weaker effects get overestimated because their descriptions are more vivid than the spells on the Sor/Wis spell list.

[Reddish Mage]

I can't believe nobody have referenced yest this little gem:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html

Let's not forget V vs. Young Black Dragon, V's first casting of explosive runes, V's use of chain lightning against the slavers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html).

You don't need a munchkin build or a clear abuse of a spell to show examples of a single spell (or two) tilting a combat situation into the PCs favor. A single successful use of a save or suck spell could have been used by V many situations were it didn't happen (such as the current combat) to "solve" the situation, as gooddragon1 would put it.

I was wondering of whether there were particularly impressive, relatively sure-fire ways to solve a lot of high-level threats that presumably have spell resistance and high saving throws.

[Snails]

I was wondering of whether there were particularly impressive, relatively sure-fire ways to solve a lot of high-level threats that presumably have spell resistance and high saving throws.

With larger sized parties (6+), area control can be immensely efficient when used against enemies lack flexible magical resources themselves. If you can knock half the enemies out of the combat for merely two rounds, the rest of the party will probably overwhelm the encounter with no help from you. Even a one round delay is often enough to tip the balance decisively.

My favorites are Web and Wall of Force.

[Knaight]

True the powers are equivalent to spell powers. However, assuming Laurin was 20, it appears Laurin has plenty more Power Points at a minimum even if we assume Wormhole is 9 . A Point system, in general, is a more flexible system then spell slots, and the ability to augment seem to give Psion's a lot of flexibility in how they use their power. Compared to a sorcerer what would they sacrifice to get that flexibility?

They aren't really all that comparable. At the level powers are obtained they lag behind spells, but only by a little. Past that though, the gap grows, and it grows quickly. The thing about augmentation is that it costs power points, where spells improve for free. A 5th level wizard casting fireball is roughly equivalent to a 5th level psion manifesting a comparable power. A 15th level wizard casting that same fireball, still at the cost of a 3rd level spell slot is going to be much more effective. A 15th level psion gets the same effect as the 5th level psion. At best the save DC is a bit higher because of attribute grown, but the damage isn't. They can jack that up to be comparable to the 15h level wizard, but it will cost a 7th level spell slot to do so.

Basically, spells autoscale, and powers don't. You can think of spell slots as quantized chunks of power points. In exchange for this quantization (which does limit the power substantially) all of them grow in power for free. Also, at the exchange rate that assumes a nth level power and nth level spell are equivalent - which they aren't, as the nth level spell is better - the psion gets fewer points than either the wizard or the sorcerer.

[Sky_Schemer]

Arcane magic has its share of spells in that category, too. Fuse Flesh is basically an extra-creepy, Fort-based Hold Person; it lasts 1 round/level, and is dispellable. At the same level, arcane casters get Flesh to Stone, which really does basically kill someone, and can only be reversed by a single specific spell.

I hear you, and I agree to some extent. To me, it's more that the psionic powers just aren't well integrated. They basically feel grafted on.

Flesh to Stone can reversed, as you point out, and the spell can be had on a scroll. Sure, Decerebrate is sort of like Finger of Death, except the latter is a death affect that can be prevented using Death Ward. Decerebrate is pure save-or-suck, and while you are incapacitated you are a helpless defender.

I think this is why I've always felt psionics just didn't fit right. Though I do agree that the vivid descriptions make them seem more spooky.

[Hecuba]

Dimension Door does not allow you to take any other actions after using it (not just casting it). So it can't be D-Door just for this.

DD does not all allow the caster to take an action after using it. It has no such restrictions on people/creatures they take with them.

[CombatOwl]

Moving this from the Geekery thread to allow the subject more breathing room, I would like to ask about how Psion's compare to a wizard/sorcerer.

Well, there's kind of three tiers of psion.

Egoist (Top Tier): Beats wiz/sorc in all cases. Not even remotely a contest if the DM is crazy enough to allow Assume Supernatural Ability.

Kineticist/Telepath (Second Tier): Better at their individual trick than an evoker or enchanter, but worse in general because of the narrow focus and broad weaknesses of their respective strategies.

All Others (Third Tier): Don't bother, wizards do it better except in dead magic zones. Sorcerers mop the floor with them for fun before breakfast.


True the powers are equivalent to spell powers. However, assuming Laurin was 20, it appears Laurin has plenty more Power Points at a minimum even if we assume Wormhole is 9 . A Point system, in general, is a more flexible system then spell slots, and the ability to augment seem to give Psion's a lot of flexibility in how they use their power. Compared to a sorcerer what would they sacrifice to get that flexibility?

TBH, Laurin is almost certainly Nomad, which means that if Rich was "running" V like a smart wizard she would lose this badly. However, for obvious plot pacing reasons it will be more of a fight than it ought to be in an actual d&d game.


The fact that a Psion would blow their entire power if they keep spamming powers doesn't seem enough of a sacrifice. After all, a Psion could also choose to conserve their energy and have as many effects in a day as a sorcerer, but can also choose to blow their energy fast.

Eh, sorcs nova better than every kind of psion except kineticists. A sorc with proper metamagic feats (and possibly PrCs) even has greater versatility than psions. Sure, that sorc may only have one enchantment spell, but if that enchantment spell is dominate monster, it doesn't much matter that the psion has half a dozen other, more situational, domination options. Moreover, in a fight the winner is usually the caster who best exploits action economy--and arcane casters have psions beat hands down for that simply for the better support from other books.

To say nothing of how badly that psion is going to lose if the wizard has some planar buddies he can summon up.


If they really can "nova" effectively against a big threat, that would appear to mean the Psion has a great deal more power (when desired) while retaining the flexibility of having just as many powers in both variety and number of uses (when necessary) as a sorcerer.

Psions have worse versatility than a sorcerer with proper spell selection. They literally build their entire class down a single strategy. Sorcerers have far more options to pick up useful spells out of their specialty (sure, you may be a blaster, but that doesn't mean you can't pick up a few save-or-dies to spice things up occasionally...). Especially if we consider scrolls.

[Everyl]

I hear you, and I agree to some extent. To me, it's more that the psionic powers just aren't well integrated. They basically feel grafted on.

Flesh to Stone can reversed, as you point out, and the spell can be had on a scroll. Sure, Decerebrate is sort of like Finger of Death, except the latter is a death affect that can be prevented using Death Ward. Decerebrate is pure save-or-suck, and while you are incapacitated you are a helpless defender.

I think this is why I've always felt psionics just didn't fit right. Though I do agree that the vivid descriptions make them seem more spooky.

Ah, okay. I think I see your point - some psionic powers don't fit neatly into existing effect categories, and thus they don't have de facto counters on the books the way that, say, death effects do. I'm not sure how big of an effect that would have on a game in practice, but some players are quite good at exploiting every little loophole or gap in the rules.

Somewhat interestingly, though, I think Dimensional Anchor would grant immunity to most Psychoportation-based attacks (including Decerebrate), because they're Teleportation effects that target the victim.