Best class/build for lowish stats

[Narren]

What class or build would you guys recommend for a character with 10s in every stat? Or even 8s in every stat? I'm not playing one, I'm just wondering about the playability and options of such a character.

[Norin]

Maybe a warlock without save based invocations would do well?

It's more or less not dependable on stats.

[Narren]

Maybe a warlock without save based invocations would do well?

It's more or less not dependable on stats.

Yeah...that was literally all I could think of.

[eggynack]

As always, I have to go with druids. First of all, they effectively have two separate stat replacement effects. They get the animal companion, which has the same statistical makeup regardless of the druid's stats, and they get wild shape, which directly replaces the druid's stats with better ones. Constitution could be problematic in the latter case, but it's better than what you start with. Second, druids are a very SAD class. All they have to do is pump wisdom, so you can emphasize that above all else, and you'll generally keep up with spells. A druid with a starting wisdom of 11 can keep up at all levels except for three, and races like anthropomorphic bat grant sufficient wisdom to start at or above 11 with nearly any character. Thus, a druid with any given set of starting stats is not too far off of a druid with any other set of starting stats. So, druid.

[OldTrees1]

Any 9ths spellcaster needs 11 before levels and spells. (so they are out)
Any warrior needs a decent ability to Atk and optionally Damage. (so they are out)

Low stats does not affect WBL based combat (Crafting)
Invocation users were mentioned

Druids can start with 8 wisdom and still reach 9ths at 17th level
8 + 4 (levels) = 12 (able to cast Owl's Wisdom)
12 + 4 (Owl's Wisdom) = 16 (able to cast Owl's Insight)
16 + 8 (Owl's Insight) = 24 (able to cast 9ths)
However it is more reasonable to start with 11 Wis since then only 2nd level spells are delayed (from 3rd to 4th)
10 Wis delays (1st till 4th and 2nd-4th till 8th)

[Elderand]

There are MAD classes: multiple ability dependent
There are SAD classes: Single ability dependent
Then there are NAD classes: no ability dependent.

A warlock who choses his invocations carefully is NAD

Other possibility, take the cancer mage prc and get infected with festering anger.

There are few problem that cannot be solved by having a str bonus in the several thousands

[erikun]

I've seen this discussion before. Druid and Wildshape Ranger are noteworthy entries, as a lot of their features (except Druid spellcasting) don't depend on stats once you have Wildshape. Warlock can pretty much operate without any stats. I don't think that the Artificer really uses their stats for much, crafting items independently. Factotum and other skill-users can get enough skill ranks that the base stats won't matter much.

[eggynack]

Any 9ths spellcaster needs 11 before levels and spells. (so they are out).
Unless you use just about any +stat race in existence. There are good ones for every casting stat, I think. Ultimately, under many conditions, NAD classes and SAD classes look a hell of a lot alike, primarily due to the ease of stat boosting that's achievable with concerted effort. Also, as I noted, druids have separate abilities from spells that increase in value in a low stat environment.

Edit: Seriously, anthropomorphic bat gets a ridiculous +6 wisdom. That means you keep up perfectly with a starting lineup of 5's, and reasonably with a starting lineup of 4's. You can even do better with wild shape by applying dragonborn for a cool +2 constitution.

[OldTrees1]

Unless you use just about any +stat race in existence. There are good ones for every casting stat, I think.

Um? Starting with Wisdom above 10 is not starting with Wis of 10. 10 + 2(racial) is not 10. 10 + 2(racial) is 12.

Sidenote: I mentioned Druids with 8-11 starting Wis

[HaikenEdge]

I asked something similar to this during the last seven days; this is the thread and the responses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318247).

[eggynack]

Um? Starting with Wisdom above 10 is not starting with Wis of 10. 10 + 2(racial) is not 10. 10 + 2(racial) is 12.

Sidenote: I mentioned Druids with 8-11 starting Wis
First of all, yes it is. You get the stats you get, and apply racial bonuses on top of that. There's such thing as a druid who is incapable of having a wisdom above 6, and it's likely higher than that. As for owl's wisdom, it doesn't really help that much because you need the high casting stat to actually cast the spells after you've prepared them. I guess it could theoretically be feasible, but it doesn't seem like it'd work that way. Anyways, a druid minus casting is still quite powerful, so druids still make for a good NAD class.

[Khedrac]

Commoner or better Expert - stay at home and don't go adventuring.

[Darrin]

Dragonfire Adept. Turtle up with full plate + tower shield. If it moves, breath on it with Entangling Exhalation, if it doesn't move then just breath on it.

[holywhippet]

Dragonfire Adept. Turtle up with full plate + tower shield. If it moves, breath on it with Entangling Exhalation, if it doesn't move then just breath on it.

Not a great idea IMO. Full plate weighs 50 lb. A tower shield weighs 45 lb. With only 10 str you can only carry up to 100 lb. So you couldn't really carry much of anything else.

I'd pick monk as a class for this kind of thing. You won't be a very good at combat, but you'll be better at avoiding death.

[eggynack]

I'd pick monk as a class for this kind of thing. You won't be a very good at combat, but you'll be better at avoiding death.
Ya mean just cause of run speed? It seems like you're putting all of your eggs into one basket on that one. Your AC is going to be pretty awful, and even the good saves won't save you from actually having pretty bad saves.

[Elderand]

Not a great idea IMO. Full plate weighs 50 lb. A tower shield weighs 45 lb. With only 10 str you can only carry up to 100 lb. So you couldn't really carry much of anything else.

I'd pick monk as a class for this kind of thing. You won't be a very good at combat, but you'll be better at avoiding death.

Monk is a terrible idea

Your bab is medium with no bonus to str or dex you aren't going to be hitting anything, even less so if you flurry
Your ac is crap since you have no dex or wis and you aren't proficient with armor so anything heavier than leather will have double penalty for you.

Monk is an extremly MAD class if you don't have three or four good scores to assign you should seriously reconsider playing one, when you have no good scores at all ? It's suicide.

[holywhippet]

As I said, you won't be any good at combat so you'll want to stay out of hitting range. But your saves will be better than most other classes and you'll gain some abilities that will let you get out of being killed or hurt.

A character with all 10 stats has no business being in combat anyway. They aren't a hero, they are cannon fodder.

[eggynack]

As I said, you won't be any good at combat so you'll want to stay out of hitting range. But your saves will be better than most other classes and you'll gain some abilities that will let you get out of being killed or hurt.

A character with all 10 stats has no business being in combat anyway. They aren't a hero, they are cannon fodder.
But you don't really gain all that many abilities that let you get out of being killed or hurt. It's mostly just the speed increase, with the saves being of marginal benefit at best. Your AC will be worse than just about any armored character. The fact that a character with all 10's has no business being in melee isn't a reason to build a monk. It's a reason to not build a melee character. Except for druids. Seriously, have you read the monster entry for riding dogs lately? They're not necessarily better than normal fighters, but they're at least competitive, and that's assuming normal stats.

[Maginomicon]

Maybe a warlock without save based invocations would do well?

It's more or less not dependable on stats.

Flavorwise this can make a ton of sense. A guy who has spent his entire life either utterly "average" or even "weak, clumsy, sickly, clueless, dumb, and ignored" rages against the gods for his pathetic life... and is answered by a demon who grants him warlock powers in exchange for his soul.

[Socratov]

Maybe a warlock without save based invocations would do well?

It's more or less not dependable on stats.


As always, I have to go with druids. First of all, they effectively have two separate stat replacement effects. They get the animal companion, which has the same statistical makeup regardless of the druid's stats, and they get wild shape, which directly replaces the druid's stats with better ones. Constitution could be problematic in the latter case, but it's better than what you start with. Second, druids are a very SAD class. All they have to do is pump wisdom, so you can emphasize that above all else, and you'll generally keep up with spells. A druid with a starting wisdom of 11 can keep up at all levels except for three, and races like anthropomorphic bat grant sufficient wisdom to start at or above 11 with nearly any character. Thus, a druid with any given set of starting stats is not too far off of a druid with any other set of starting stats. So, druid.

Well, both the druid and warlock don't specifically need stats. The druid really likes wisdom (to cast, but that can be helped with periapts). They do need Con though for wildshaping and HP (wildshaping does not affect your Con). Warlock however can get by with pretty much anything for stats. Con would be nice, but even for his skills he can use his boost invocations. Besides, he gets his tools mostly form his invocations so he does not need a lot of equipment (it could help though to carry a lot of staves, wands and other items).

[holywhippet]

Flavorwise this can make a ton of sense. A guy who has spent his entire life either utterly "average" or even "weak, clumsy, sickly, clueless, dumb, and ignored" rages against the gods for his pathetic life... and is answered by a demon who grants him warlock powers in exchange for his soul.

Speaking of rage, how about barbarian? Provided you can finish off the battle before the fight ends those bonuses to STR and CON will help.

[Ruethgar]

I'd have to go with Factotum, Expert and Human Paragon for this. If your stats are that bad then skill cheese looks to be an easy way out(namely Lucid Dreaming). Though with no cheese, barbarian/shapeshift druid gets you some decent stats at level 2.

[eggynack]

Well, both the druid and warlock don't specifically need stats. The druid really likes wisdom (to cast, but that can be helped with periapts). They do need Con though for wildshaping and HP (wildshaping does not affect your Con). Warlock however can get by with pretty much anything for stats. Con would be nice, but even for his skills he can use his boost invocations. Besides, he gets his tools mostly form his invocations so he does not need a lot of equipment (it could help though to carry a lot of staves, wands and other items).
They don't strictly need either constitution or wisdom, because the animal companion makes the druid the single most potent melee character in a low stat world. You could even really push that aspect, taking stuff like natural bond and exalted companion.

[gorfnab]

Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 10/ Warshaper 5

[eggynack]

Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 10/ Warshaper 5
The lesser animal companion makes that likely a worse option than just replacing the ranger levels with druid ones. Constitution could be problematic, but I can see wild shape focus working out decently

[ellindsey]

Commoner. If your stats are that low, you obviously aren't a PC or even an important NPC.

[HaikenEdge]

Commoner. If your stats are that low, you obviously aren't a PC or even an important NPC.
Take Chicken Infested, ranks in Craft (Cookery), and Skill Focus (Craft: Cookery), and then open up a chain of restaurants serving all forms of cooked chicken.

[MeiLeTeng]

Take Chicken Infested, ranks in Craft (Cookery), and Skill Focus (Craft: Cookery), and then open up a chain of restaurants serving all forms of cooked chicken.

Have those restaurants be a front for your Sannish empire, but be careful who you do business with.

[FrznTear]

commoner into survivor
fight with 10 foot poles, rusty buckets and eventually tree tokens

[Zrak]

Have those restaurants be a front for your Sannish empire, but be careful who you do business with.

I don't know if Exotic weapon proficiency: Boxcutter is particularly optimized.

[JHShadon]

I don't know if Exotic weapon proficiency: Boxcutter is particularly optimized.

Of course it is. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7spnBWmNAs)

[HaikenEdge]

Have those restaurants be a front for your Sannish empire, but be careful who you do business with.

In fact, you should also grab Craft (Alchemy) a secondary craft skill, and start making Explosive Packs (from Secrets of Sarlona); with a skill mod of 16, you can take 10 and make ones that do 1d6. Then walk into your rival's office and drop it like it's hot.

Or, get to level 6 and get Leadership. Now you can have your own Badger and Skinny Pete. Extra points if your Badger is actually an anthropomorphic badger.