Elan, his family, and dangling from edges - A full circle

[Freeholder]

Seeing as Tarquin's number is most likely up, or at very least this encounter about to end, its about time for Elan to get in one last father-son clash. And seeing as Tarquin is so conveniently hanging onto an edge for dear life, I think it's high time Elan revisits a previous moral quandary.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html

I think its interesting to see how a great deal more maturity and a lot more experience realizing that he can't save his insane family will change the decision Elan comes to.

[Grey Watcher]

Seeing as Tarquin's number is most likely up, or at very least this encounter about to end, its about time for Elan to get in one last father-son clash. And seeing as Tarquin is so conveniently hanging onto an edge for dear life, I think it's high time Elan revisits a previous moral quandary.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html

I think its interesting to see how a great deal more maturity and a lot more experience realizing that he can't save his insane family will change the decision Elan comes to.

I'd be really disappointed if Elan went the cynical route. That said, I can imagine that, unlike his late son, Tarquin might actually refuse the help. I mean, let's face it, on some level he thinks the whole world exists to serve as a backdrop for his personal story, so I doubt he really appreciates how much danger he's in, dangling from the railing of an airship.

[Ramien]

Seeing as Tarquin's number is most likely up, or at very least this encounter about to end, its about time for Elan to get in one last father-son clash. And seeing as Tarquin is so conveniently hanging onto an edge for dear life, I think it's high time Elan revisits a previous moral quandary.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html

I think its interesting to see how a great deal more maturity and a lot more experience realizing that he can't save his insane family will change the decision Elan comes to.

It's not really a matter of whether or not he can 'save' them from being evil. But this is Elan we're talking about here. He's the good son/twin, not the neutral son/twin. He's not the sort to kill any helpless opponent - if anything, he'd try and help Tarquin up and get stabbed for his trouble - and we'll see that Tarquin really is dumber (or at least more prideful) than Nale ;)

[Bulldog Psion]

Seeing as Tarquin's number is most likely up, or at very least this encounter about to end, its about time for Elan to get in one last father-son clash. And seeing as Tarquin is so conveniently hanging onto an edge for dear life, I think it's high time Elan revisits a previous moral quandary.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html

I think its interesting to see how a great deal more maturity and a lot more experience realizing that he can't save his insane family will change the decision Elan comes to.

I don't think we'll find out, first because the casters are squaring off, and second because it looks like Tarquin is only partly over the rail and is a quick scramble away from being back on deck, rather than hanging on helplessly with the fingers of one hand.

[Ridureyu]

Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!

[DaggerPen]

Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!

100101010100010101101011!

[BlackDragonKing]

I actually can't see Tarquin refusing Elan helping him up or trying the old "thanks for helping me up *stab*" trick, because Tarquin understands villainous cliches a lot better than he does people, and that's held consistent even when his control hasn't.

Even in this state, Tarquin likely knows without even having to think about it that refusing the offered hand or trying to stab the savior immediately afterwards ALWAYS results in a karmic demise for the bad guy stupid enough to try it.

Predictable writing is an area that Tarquin feels at home in, so it won't have much power over him, and the Giant's obviously not going to defeat Tarquin with bad writing because all the metaplot malarky in the world doesn't make bad writing good writing because it's not supposed to be good.

As I said before all of this started, Elan's strength to stick it to his old man lies in his abilities to use the narrative UNEXPECTEDLY, which Tarquin really can't deal with. Load it up with enough chaos, and you may even make Tarquin quit because he just can't handle something that impossible to predict or control.

As far as the actual quandary goes, Elan will in all likelihood always choose to save the bad guy when inaction will directly result in their death and killing them or allowing them to die is not actively saving anyone else. Elan might kill someone if doing so saves a friend, but an enemy at his mercy is not one Elan will execute or let drop to his doom because that's not what Good means to Elan and everyone, Elan included, knows that Tarquin does not deserve to be the man that changes that about him.

[Gnome Alone]

100101010100010101101011!

Good gravy, did you actually look up the specific arrangement of 1's and 0's in that comic?

[DaggerPen]

Good gravy, did you actually look up the specific arrangement of 1's and 0's in that comic?

Look, a representative of Law must do these things properly.

Don't judge me, it only took like 30 seconds.

[Greatmoustache]

Good gravy, did you actually look up the specific arrangement of 1's and 0's in that comic?

you've just implied that you did look it up, so i guess it's not *that* weird. :smallamused:

[Gnome Alone]

you've just implied that you did look it up, so i guess it's not *that* weird. :smallamused:

Actually I just guessed she did. I am a representative of Chaos myself, specifically the sub-branch of sloth. Thumbs up to DaggerPen though.

[Greatmoustache]

Actually I just guessed she did. I am a representative of Chaos myself, specifically the sub-branch of sloth. Thumbs up to DaggerPen though.

fair enough. :smallwink:

[Stabbey]

Elan may be good, but even he can be pushed to the point of wanting to kill an enemy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html).

[JSSheridan]

Seeing as Tarquin's number is most likely up, or at very least this encounter about to end, its about time for Elan to get in one last father-son clash. And seeing as Tarquin is so conveniently hanging onto an edge for dear life, I think it's high time Elan revisits a previous moral quandary.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html

I think its interesting to see how a great deal more maturity and a lot more experience realizing that he can't save his insane family will change the decision Elan comes to.

"I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you."

[Goosefeather]

Elan may be good, but even he can be pushed to the point of wanting to kill an enemy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html).

The whole point of that scene, however, is that he chose not to.

[Katuko]

If Tarquin is to fall, I find it more likely that someone like V or Belkar does it. Haley or even Roy, too. From the people currently on-deck, though, V might be fully occupied with Laurin (though Quickened Disintegrate on the railing Tarquin is holding might be a possible use of an 8th-level slot), so I guess Haley would be the one to crawl over and stab Tarquin in the hand or whatever. Another Forceful Hand (6th level) could also be possible, but I don't know if V would have any reason to prepare more than one.

Bottom line is: I don't see Elan making the choice to push his father over the edge, unless this scene made him realize that he can't avoid killing Tarquin in the end.

[Flame of Anor]

I do like the idea of V ditching Tarquin with a power word stun, but I would be frankly a bit surprised if he turned out to have less than 151 HP. Let's say, for example, that he's a 21st-level fighter--a very plausible scenario, what with all the combat feats he has. The average 21st-level fighter has 120 HP before any Constitution bonuses. If he has just a measly +2 Constitution modifier, that's 162 HP already.

[DaggerPen]

Actually I just guessed she did. I am a representative of Chaos myself, specifically the sub-branch of sloth. Thumbs up to DaggerPen though.

Haha, thanks. Honestly, I thought no one would even notice, so props for the good guess. :smallredface:

[Katuko]

I do like the idea of V ditching Tarquin with a power word stun, but I would be frankly a bit surprised if he turned out to have less than 151 HP. Let's say, for example, that he's a 21st-level fighter--a very plausible scenario, what with all the combat feats he has. The average 21st-level fighter has 120 HP before any Constitution bonuses. If he has just a measly +2 Constitution modifier, that's 162 HP already.

Hence using a spell that does not allow a save - such as Disintegrate on an object he is trying to cling to - would be much more effective.

I guess another wildcard here is that Julio manages to get high enough to reach Tarquin in the next round, possibly pulling T down with him. V could then use Feather Fall or similar to save Julio, or he could get a Disney death. He does not seem to have been hurt yet, and as a Dashing Swordsman he might even have a feat which reduces fall damage when no one else is watching. :D

[ScrapperTBP]

A thought I had was that Julio was having trouble clambering up the airship on account of his age yet he seems just a springy as Tarquin in their battle. Could Tarquin have a similar issue.

Sure he has more strength but Julio reported himself to have average strength which should be enough to get himself aboard

[Kish]

Julio is very likely to have a class ability that lets him reenter the battle at the most dramatically appropriate moment, assuming there is a dramatically appropriate moment for Julio to reenter the battle.

[Jay R]

Actually I just guessed she did. I am a representative of Chaos myself, specifically the sub-branch of sloth. Thumbs up to DaggerPen though.

Sloth, being one of the Seven Deadly Sins, is a sub-branch of Evil, not of Chaos.


Good gravy, did you actually look up the specific arrangement of 1's and 0's in that comic?

It's worse than that. Some of us looked it up just to check his sequence.

[But if I had quoted it, I'd have retained the division into bytes: "10010101 01000101 01101011". The comic balloon leaves it unclear, but a byte (8 bits) is a basic unit.]


"I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you."

That's a Neutral attitude. Elan is the Good twin, not the Neutral twin.

[DaggerPen]

It's worse than that. Some of us looked it up just to check his sequence.

[But if I had quoted it, I'd have retained the division into bytes: "10010101 01000101 01101011". The comic balloon leaves it unclear, but a byte (8 bits) is a basic unit.]

It was divided into bytes in-comic, but I felt like it looked weird with the spaces, so I left them out. My own personal preference is actually to write divided into chunks of 4 - it's not a proper byte, but it makes hexadecimal conversion a breeze.

(Also, "his"? :P)

[RadagastTheBrow]

Sloth, being one of the Seven Deadly Sins, is a sub-branch of Evil, not of Chaos.


How dare you besmirch the majestic and noble sloth! Celestial tree-sloth attack! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0805.html)

Alternatively... Chaotic Evil, maybe?

[Stabbey]

The whole point of that scene, however, is that he chose not to.

Sure, because Kubota surrendered. Tarquin is so delusional and certain about how the story should go that I can't see him surrendering.

Part of Elan's journey in this arc is that he's come to realize that his family (aside from his mother) is not good and are unlikely to ever be. Elan was conflicted about Tarquin before Windy canyon, and since then, Tarquin has been an even worse person.

I have no idea if Elan will kill Tarquin, and I certainly don't think he's still enthusiastic about the idea, but I don't think that it's improbable, certainly not for the sole reason "his alignment is Good."

[b_jonas]

Tarquin is so conveniently hanging onto an edge for dear life,

That's riddiculous. I'm quite sure Tarquin can just jump down without dying if he wants.

Given that they just gated to a flying airship where they might have to comfront a person hanging on the rope, Laurin has likely cast psionic Feather Fall on both of them in advance, or will cast it quickly when Tarquin starts to fall. Also, they're over a sand desert, Tarquin still has a lot of hit points can might also be able to heal up quickly from a potion while falling. And he's wearing like a dozen rings, one of which is a ring of Feather Fall anyway, because that helps him in exquisite rooftop fights and unfinished places of the palace.

Edit: Even if he died, Tarquin's body would be conserved by the sand and he could be retrieved by Laurin and raised by some cleric. That would end the fight but not Tarquin.

[Kish]

Given that they just gated to a flying airship where they might have to comfront a person hanging on the rope, Laurin has likely cast psionic Feather Fall on both of them in advance, or will cast it quickly when Tarquin starts to fall.

Psion, not super wizard/psion prestige class.

In other words, there is neither evidence that Laurin knows Psionic Feather Fall, nor any reason to assume she does.

And he's wearing like a dozen rings,

...This, quite literally, is apparently something many people on this board believe. So there is no good reason for me to protest it based on flimsy bases, such as it being impossible and lacking any evidence.

[Rakoa]

Sloth, being one of the Seven Deadly Sins, is a sub-branch of Evil, not of Chaos.

I do not believe that the Seven Deadly Sins exist in D&D cosmology.

[Grey Watcher]

I do not believe that the Seven Deadly Sins exist in D&D cosmology.

Maybe he's been reading Widdershins?

[Jay R]

I do not believe that the Seven Deadly Sins exist in D&D cosmology.

I promise you that avarice exists in D&D.

[theinsulabot]

Knocking Tarquin off the ship in my book would be the fastest and easiest way to ensure they were fighting him again in a few dozen strips, and that's giving the order credit for killing his psion pal now, or else it's like, 2 strips, tops.

[BlackDragonKing]

Sure, because Kubota surrendered. Tarquin is so delusional and certain about how the story should go that I can't see him surrendering.

Part of Elan's journey in this arc is that he's come to realize that his family (aside from his mother) is not good and are unlikely to ever be. Elan was conflicted about Tarquin before Windy canyon, and since then, Tarquin has been an even worse person.

I have no idea if Elan will kill Tarquin, and I certainly don't think he's still enthusiastic about the idea, but I don't think that it's improbable, certainly not for the sole reason "his alignment is Good."

See, I think the sole reason "his alignment is good" is why Elan will never willingly kill Tarquin, not the least because that's what Tarquin expects of him.

He will never, EVER kill Tarquin when Tarquin is at his mercy because Elan is not a killer. He's been tempted before; he contemplated letting Nale get what he deserved way back when and would likely have gone through with it with Kubota if Kubota hadn't surrendered, but killing an enemy when they are at your mercy is not what "good" means to Elan. Nale's life goal is to work tirelessly towards his destruction and the deaths of all his friends, no matter how many times Elan spared him; Elan didn't care. He never wanted Nale to die.

Elan doesn't have any illusions that he, Nale, and Tarquin can be a family, not after what he's experienced, but that didn't make him a different kind of Good. To Elan, unless it is an unavoidable consequence of saving someone dear to him, it isn't part of who he is to kill Tarquin or just turn away and let him die. And I think Elan knows that to do this would be to admit that Tarquin has such power over him that he has forced Elan to change who he is just by meeting him, which is not something I think Elan would ever allow. He's not a killer, and he's not the sort of man who would let his evil father turn him into one.

[Stabbey]

See, I think the sole reason "his alignment is good" is why Elan will never willingly kill Tarquin, not the least because that's what Tarquin expects of him.

<snip>

That's actually a rather well thought-out argument. That makes sense.

[Composer99]

I promise you that avarice exists in D&D.

The remark about the Seven Deadly Sins was not, I think, a claim that the sentiments (and actions) behind them do not exist, but rather that, in standard D&D cosmology, they cannot reasonably be expected to have the same post-mortem spiritual consequence as in Catholic moral philosophy.

On topic: I agree with posters who have said that it would not be in Elan's character to let a helpless villain fall to his death if he could prevent it. Haley or Roy might, but not Elan.

I agree more with Bulldog Psion: based on the visual of Tarquin in #934, unless he is pushed further he will be able to clamber back on board, so Elan will not face this conundrum directly as a result of the events of #934. (He may yet, though, depending on how events unfold.)

[DaggerPen]

Maybe he's been reading Widdershins?

Sorry, tangent just to say-

Widdershins buddy! Hi five!

We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

[AKA_Bait]

Not to be a downer, but are we confident that Tarquin wouldn't walk away from falling off the airship? Max falling damage is 20d6 (i.e., 120 damage at most). He's only showing one injury and probably has a pretty high hit point total.

[JSSheridan]

That's a Neutral attitude. Elan is the Good twin, not the Neutral twin.

If T surrendered now, then you'd be right.

Seeing how he's ranting about killing everyone on the ship and breaking Elan, pulling him up would just be stupid.

[bguy]

Not to be a downer, but are we confident that Tarquin wouldn't walk away from falling off the airship? Max falling damage is 20d6 (i.e., 120 damage at most). He's only showing one injury and probably has a pretty high hit point total.

Well he would probably have to make a massive damage FORT save due to the falling damage, and it's always possible he would roll a 1 there.

[AKA_Bait]

Well he would probably have to make a massive damage FORT save due to the falling damage, and it's always possible he would roll a 1 there.

True, but at that point we are talking like a 1 in 20 chance. Maybe less depending on whether he has items or abilities that permit a reroll. Not quite the same dramatic tension, I'd think.

[Jay R]

If T surrendered now, then you'd be right.

Seeing how he's ranting about killing everyone on the ship and breaking Elan, pulling him up would just be stupid.

Well, I can make the case that Elan is the stupid twin, too.

[Leviting]

Remember, when Élan contemplated killing Nale, he was worried his mom would be saddened by the death. I doubt anyone will mourn Tarquin except maybe his teammates.
But than, if Élan contemplates and feels torn, isn't that what Tarquin wants him to do?

[BlackDragonKing]

Remember, when Élan contemplated killing Nale, he was worried his mom would be saddened by the death. I doubt anyone will mourn Tarquin except maybe his teammates.
But than, if Élan contemplates and feels torn, isn't that what Tarquin wants him to do?

It's not merely a matter of it just being "mom wouldn't be happy to know Nale died", though; Elan has come with time to admit that his family is screwed up and broken and that's never going to be magically fixed.

Not that Nale and Tarquin aren't a part of his family, and something he has to reconcile with his refusal to be a killer no matter how much they hurt him.

The fact that Tarquin won't be mourned except by his friends isn't really a factor to Elan, and expecting Elan of all people to be hyper-rational about a decision a lot of people would find incredibly hard isn't realistic; Tarquin's still his father, and while Tarquin and Nale are killers, the sort of people that don't show mercy when the time comes, Elan is not and has not intention to be.

I feel it's important to who Elan is as a character that he doesn't lose that part of himself. He's the only member of the Order that represents the part of good that has mercy and compassion even for the undeserving more than the part that is willing to put themselves in danger for others and respects life but will quickly destroy evil to protect life. Durkon's perspective has changed due to his death, and Roy and Haley both represent the pragmatic but well-meant side of Good that's not afraid to kill a *****. Elan balances them out.

[Leviting]

I must be too lawful to understand Elan's thought processes. Or maybe not good(alignment) enough.
I do agree with all your points, though