Are there any more classes like the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer?

[Con_Brio1993]

So my DM has noticed a severe imbalance in the party (Fighter/Druid/Sorcerer/Bard/Barbarian) and wants to fix this. He wants to use the Gestalt rules provided by JaronK, OR simply get the players to accept a ban on Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes.

Most of the players seem to be leaning towards the latter. The only problem is that the tier list only covers a few classes. We lack knowledge of any low tier equivalent to the Druid or Cleric. The only low tier Arcane classes I know of are the Bard (sort of), the Beguiler (illusion/enchantment), the Dread Necromancer (necromancy), and the Warmage (blasty). Notably there is a lack (to my knowledge) of a lower tier Arcane class focusing on Transmutation, Conjuration, Abjuration, and Divination. So do these classes actually exist? And if so would anyone mind pointing me to the class names and their source book?

[holywhippet]

A low tier divine caster would be the favoured soul.

[Snowbluff]

He means healer. Which is really bad without ways to expand your list like Corrupt and Sanctified spells.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The Shugenja (Complete Divine) is a T3 full caster that's pretty terrible (for a Full Caster). You must specialize in one of the 4 traditional elements (Air/Earth/Fire/Water), loosing access to your opposing element.

Fire Shugenja are blasters, Water are Healers, Air is Illusiony/Travel and Earth is buffing/transmutation/abjuration.

Another lower-tier divine caster would be the Mystic, from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

The Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine) is a difficult case, because even though they have access to the entire Druid list, they can only select 4ish spells at most of any level to cast spontaneously that day.

Shadowcasters (Tome of Magic) are pretty cool, and they're definitely lower-tiered than a wizard or even a sorcerer. If you do use them, though, I'd recommend using the author's fix or simply changing their mysteries to per encounter.

[holywhippet]

The Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine) is a difficult case, because even though they have access to the entire Druid list, they can only select 4ish spells at most of any level to cast spontaneously that day.


I'd still rate them as Tier 1/2 though. They get a lot of bonus class features and the limited spells retrived per day can be countered with scrolls/wands and by careful spell selection. A wizard if firmly tier 1 even though they can have only about 4-6 different spells at each spell level generally. It just depends on how far they've pumped up their INT score.

[Bakeru]

Notably there is a lack (to my knowledge) of a lower tier Arcane class focusing on Transmutation, Conjuration, Abjuration, and Divination. So do these classes actually existAs far as I know, Transmutation and Conjuration are considered the strongest schools, and Abjuration is still one of the better ones. Unless a class seriously hampers their spellcasting, anything with access to them should still be pretty strong.

Anyway, there's also the Tier 3 Duskblade, which has Evocations and Abjurations as its main tools (and casts in armour, and channels touch spells through its weapons), the Tier 3 Factotum, which is a mess and has to be houseruled, but is otherwise quite nice, and the Tier 4 Spellthief, who... Well, I've read a throughout thread about how the Spellthief is pretty much incapable to do what it's supposed to do (steal magic from spellcasters - it doesn't have effective counters against most magical defences), but is still a spellcasting skillmonkey. With access to low-level Abjuration, Transmutation and Divination.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'd still rate them as Tier 1/2 though. They get a lot of bonus class features and the limited spells retrived per day can be countered with scrolls/wands and by careful spell selection. A wizard if firmly tier 1 even though they can have only about 4-6 different spells at each spell level generally. It just depends on how far they've pumped up their INT score.

Keep in mind that the Spirit Shaman also suffers from split casting stats, and the bonus class features are mainly only usable against [spirits]. It's a lower-tier equivalent to a druid. T2 is lower than T1, after all.:smallwink:

[Canine]

Prestige classes with limited casting lists like Suel Arcanamach (CArc), or a bunch of classes from Unapproachable East (or CDiv, etc), or expanded lists like Nar Demonbinder or Prestige Paladin or Bard could all be interesting ways to add limited spellcasting or enhance existing lists. Something like Jaunter (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) gives you a nice selection of SLAs, which could be fun to help diversify the right non-caster.

Edit:
And for your arcane casters, the ever popular Arcane Disciple.

[holywhippet]

Keep in mind that the Spirit Shaman also suffers from split casting stats, and the bonus class features are mainly only usable against [spirits]. It's a lower-tier equivalent to a druid. T2 is lower than T1, after all.:smallwink:

True, but spirits include a fair variety of creatures. It is a class you'd take for specific campaign conditions IMO.

[Donox]

There is also the DMG's witch (its an example of an alternate class). 90% sure if has spellcasting akin to beguilers/warmages/dread necros. I don't know what pages it on..

Not totally sure what it specializes in. Probably a mix of illusion, divination, transmutation, and necromancy.

[Karnith]

There is also the DMG's witch (its an example of an alternate class). 90% sure if has spellcasting akin to beguilers/warmages/dread necros. I don't know what pages it on..It's not really fleshed out to an actual class (it's just the spellcasting, and even then it doesn't quite work), but the sample new spell list for the Witch is in the Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 175.

Not totally sure what it specializes in. Probably a mix of illusion, divination, transmutation, and necromancy.
It was made to specialize in charms, form-changing, and nature spells, with a light/limited focus on Illusions, Divinations, and some other various witch-y thing (e.g. Bestow Curse, Whispering Winds, and the like).

[Con_Brio1993]

A low tier divine caster would be the favoured soul.

Tier 2 is what Favored Soul is marked at.

[ngilop]

yeah the spirit shaman is up for debate whether ist "tier" 1 or "tier" 2


I did a re-work of the healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272245) if you wanna take a look at that and Grod did a Divination focus specialized caster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314601) as well

Grod also did a conjuration focused class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317495) and then Pathfidner has the Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) THough im not 100% sure that Grod's version is "tier" 3

There no really a transmuation focused one and there is now way I can ever see it NOT being "tier" 1 transmuatation is just that powerful.

Grod also did a Abjuration focused caster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317830) but ist more of a hybrid than caster, so im not sure if that is what you are looking for.


ANd yeah the DMG witch if you let a witch know her spells like a warmage/beguiler the list comes out to be pretty decent.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't forget the bottom of the barrel; the adept and magewright npc classes both clock in at T4. (Magewright might be T5. T4 is a gut call rather than an analyzed position.)

[Greenish]

I'd not put Magewright in same tier as Adept. Magewright's casting combines the worst aspects of prepared and spontaneous: they only get to know a few spells, and have to prepare them for the day. Their spell list is fairly anemic at lower levels, but there are a few goodies higher up.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Pathfinder's Summoner is debated between tiers 2 and 3.

You could always try adding Abjuration spells to Warmage till it feels like a Tier 3.

[Particle_Man]

Not a caster as such, but the Warlock is pretty cool. If you house rule the crafting ability at 12th level such that they can't do scrolls, wands, staffs, or their equivalents, that should keep their power down too if it is likely to be problem.

[Bovine Colonel]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Bard :smalltongue:

[gorfnab]

Mystic Ranger (Dragon 336) - debatable, with Sword of the Arcane Order (CoV) it's nearly Tier 1 until level 10, after that it drops to Tier 3 or 4

Nightstalker (DL: RoA) - casting is Conjuration: Healing, Divination, and Necromancy based. Gets 6th level spells.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Bard :smalltongue:


So my DM has noticed a severe imbalance in the party (Fighter/Druid/Sorcerer/Bard/Barbarian) and wants to fix this. He wants to use the Gestalt rules provided by JaronK, OR simply get the players to accept a ban on Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes.

Most of the players seem to be leaning towards the latter. The only problem is that the tier list only covers a few classes. We lack knowledge of any low tier equivalent to the Druid or Cleric. The only low tier Arcane classes I know of are the Bard (sort of), the Beguiler (illusion/enchantment), the Dread Necromancer (necromancy), and the Warmage (blasty). Notably there is a lack (to my knowledge) of a lower tier Arcane class focusing on Transmutation, Conjuration, Abjuration, and Divination. So do these classes actually exist? And if so would anyone mind pointing me to the class names and their source book?

OP beat you to it.:smallwink:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Note that it's generally pretty easy to play a T2 in a party containing T3/high T4 classes. As long as you don't learn the broken spells (and at this point I think we mostly all know what those are; if not, there are about a hundred thousand threads on the subject a Google away), the difference between a sorcerer and a dread necromancer is fairly low.

In any case, I think most of the official alternatives have been brought up already. For a quick-and-dirty fix, you could probably take the T2 classes use a 7-spell-level-progression. Something like this, say:
{table=head]Level|0 lv|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th
1|5|3|—|—|—|—|—|—
2|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—
3|6|5|—|—|—|—|—|—
4|6|6|3|—|—|—|—|—
5|6|6|4|—|—|—|—|—
6|6|6|5|—|—|—|—|—
7|6|6|6|3|—|—|—|—
8|6|6|6|4|—|—|—|—
9|6|6|6|5|—|—|—|—
10|6|6|6|6|3|—|—|—
11|6|6|6|6|4|—|—|—
12|6|6|6|6|5|—|—|—
13|6|6|6|6|6|3|—|—
14|6|6|6|6|6|4|—|—
15|6|6|6|6|6|5|—|—
16|6|6|6|6|6|6|3|—
17|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|—
18|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|—
19|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|3
20|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4[/table]
That should do an awful lot towards reigning in imbalance. If you want more, well, there are plenty of full-on homebrew classes to choose from. Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701)is a good place to start looking. For your specific needs, jiriku (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10523436&postcount=110)did a bunch of focused-list casters. I'm not familiar with them specifically, but I've generally been pretty impressed by what I've seen of his stuff.


<links to my stuff>
:smallredface: (Incidentally, the homepage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16545265#post16545265)for that project)