A Question on helping martials.

[XionUnborn01]

I know this happens every other day but I was just wondering about a specific ability that could be given to martials.

Would giving martials (fighters specifically, they need the most help) a handful of abilities that deal ability damage help them at all in combat.

I know options are always good but I also know that bigger/more numbers aren't really the way to help them out.
I think that giving them more options in combat would make playing them more interesting but I don't know if it makes enough of a difference to integrate it without a whole class rewrite.

So an ability that deals some sort of scaling temporary ability damage, would it help the fighters?

[Greenish]

Dealing damage to the targets they can reach and actually hit isn't a problem for fighters. It's doing anything else.

[XionUnborn01]

I understand that much. I was asking more from the perspective of giving the fighters a few more options in combat, even if it's just another type of damage.

[Red Fel]

Dealing damage to the targets they can reach and actually hit isn't a problem for fighters. It's doing anything else.

This.

As you correctly point out, OP, the numbers are only a minor part of the problem. The problems of martials include:

1: Scaling. A spellcaster's spells jack up in power from one caster level to the next. A Psion with a high ML can inflate his powers to an absurd degree. A martial, at higher levels, gets a slight bonus on his ability to hit a target, or maybe he gets an extra feat. He simply does not scale enough.

Does dealing ability damage help this weakness? No, because for a martial character to deal ability damage and have that scale, it would go from nominal utility to outrageously broken. At low levels, dealing 1 Con damage on a crit, for example, is useful but not as potent as what a caster can do. If you were to scale that, say dealing 10 Con damage at level 20, it becomes truly outrageous. There's no easy way to scale it, and so it doesn't help.

Does adding damage help this weakness? Potentially, if you could change a martial's damage dealt to be more in-line with the scaling power of casters. But as mentioned, the numbers are only part of the problem; the other part is...

2: Versatility. The Tier System illustrates this beautifully - casters have a massive box of tools with which to play, while martial characters are substantially more limited in their diversity. A caster can teleport, fly, mind control somebody, they have tools for potentially any situation. Martial characters generally do not, without special items or dips.

Does dealing ability damage help this weakness? No. It adds no out-of-combat utility, nor does it add any functionality beyond what a martial could already do.

Does adding damage help this weakness? No, for the same reason.

Bottom line, to improve a martial character, you need to have it scale better and give it a larger toolbox. That's the first step. ToB did a decent job in that direction, but it only narrowed the gap; it didn't overcome it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless I'm mistaken, such options already exist. I'll see what I can find when I get home.

[XionUnborn01]

Kelb, I know that there's rogue options that allow ability damage if that's what you're referencing.

If you're talking about ToB, that's not generally used at our table. We prefer to play in a fluff over crunch environment, where monks and fighters have regularly played along side clerics and wizards while still contributing in encounters, and ToB was never really received well with the players.

Other than that, I'm not aware of these sorts of options.

[Emperor Tippy]

It would help them in some small but non zero manner. The problem with martial classes isn't dealing damage (the highest damage output in the game, as high as you want it, is done by melee and even outside of TO damage isn't a real issue) or even really hitting their target if they can get within range of said target, its contributing outside of combat and getting within range to engage their target(s).

A core only wizard of 11th level could stand there and pretty much laugh at the 1d2 Crusader (or most any other martial build) just because of his Contingent Resilient Sphere set to go up around him when he is attacked.

[XionUnborn01]

Red--I do understand that versatility is the biggest discrepancy between the tiers and I'm well aware that this won't move the fighters up a great amount.

What I'm going for here is simply some interesting options for a player to use during combats. The scaling situation has come up in my musings on this but I've not really put much thought into the implementation of this so I can't really comment on it too much other than understanding that it has to scale while avoiding being Truenamer-ed(tm) meaning it sucks early on, then at high level it suddenly owns everything.

Here is an idea of an ability that I had to give you an idea where my thoughts are going on this (please remember that this is simply a rambling thought I wrote down, so balance is somewhere between bad and non existent);

Attack that deals temp charisma damage equal to 1/2 the result of damage dice roll. This cannot reduce charisma below 1 and doesn't stack. Even after the damage from the attack is healed, a scar remains that cannot be removed by any means other than remove curse, limited wish, wish or miracle or the death of the one that caused the scar. The scar imposes a penalty to Diplomacy and Gather Information equal to the initial charisma damage dealt, but bestows a bonus on Intimidate of the same amount. The bonus doesn't apply against anyone who witnessed the attack that caused the scar but the penalties do. The scar doesn't need to be visible to cause these bonuses and penalties and is a Supernatural ability, though the initial attack is an EX ability.


So it's super wordy and whatnot, but that's the kind of idea I was going for, a combat option with some lasting non combat penalties.

[XionUnborn01]

Tippy, I know that this doesn't really adjust the discrepancy in the tiers between mundanes and casters.

If you look at my reply to Red it should give you an idea of what I'm going for. Not something that fixes everything but just a way to give some options.

[cakellene]

I think there should be a time limit on that, perhaps goes away after a month.

[XionUnborn01]

I think there should be a time limit on that, perhaps goes away after a month.

Well, like I said, it's not really thought out or balanced at all. I just wanted to give some sort of example of what I was thinking.

[Twilightwyrm]

The Charisma Scar idea is a...thematic one to be sure. What I suppose I do not quite understand is how exactly this helps fighting types gain anything more than a slight variety in flavors of attacks. The way I see it, there are three main combat reasons to do ability damage: to reduce the creature's general effectiveness, to incapacitate it by reducing that stat to zero, and, if you are some kind of malevolent jerk, just to mess with them. Already one of those is not an option, as this ability cannot reduce it below 1. You could say its point is the first, but the only real point here would be to deny the spell casting of a Cha based caster, and if you can actually damage the caster, you would be better serves by just dealing giant amounts of HP damage, or using one of the other various methods of applying ability damage to melee attacks. So this really only leave the last, which while thematic, doesn't really do much to expand the martial character's power or utility.
If you want to expand the capabilities of martials, just adding the ability to deal a different type of damage isn't typically enough (see the CA Swashbuckler, who does exactly this, though to be fair not very well). Rather, I would look at adding some sort of ability to suppress effects or obstacles. The Dungeoncrasher ACF Fighter is an interesting example of such utility, in that it kind of lets a fighter overcome silly things like doors, walls, and structures in general (a reason to give your fighter CC ranks in Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) if I've ever seen one), albeit with decidedly less finesse than a spellcaster. An example of another such ability would be some sort of ability to suppress or outright bypass magical effects, either as a special combat maneuver, or as part of some feat. Sure, it doesn't give them near the versatility of a spellcaster, but it does let them start to check some of that versatility by rendering it less important. And mind you, this is just talking about combat. If you are really looking to help out mundane characters, out of combat utility is generally a good place to start as well.

[StreamOfTheSky]

(fighters specifically, they need the most help)

Actually, that would be monks. And outside of core, you've got Soulknife and (good lord) Complete Warrior Samurai, and some other has-beens who've all got it worse off than the Fighter.

[Totema]

It's not a class adjustment, but throwing a Dispelling weapon in the direction of your fighter can help out quite a bit. Suddenly, you find that he can handle a Resilient Sphere all on his own.

[OldTrees1]

It's not a class adjustment, but throwing a Dispelling weapon in the direction of your fighter can help out quite a bit. Suddenly, you find that he can handle a Resilient Sphere all on his own.

Optionally you could fold this into a class feature/feat for martial classes. (With appropriate refluffing and physics explanations to suit your tastes/suspension of disbelief)

[XionUnborn01]

Actually, that would be monks. And outside of core, you've got Soulknife and (good lord) Complete Warrior Samurai, and some other has-beens who've all got it worse off than the Fighter.

What I meant by that statement, which I guess wasn't really clear, was that fighters don't really have any abilities other than their feats. Like I've said before, I'm not trying to fix the fighter, I realize adding more numbers isn't the answer to that. I'm simply trying to add more interesting options.

[Twilightwyrm]

Actually, that would be monks. And outside of core, you've got Soulknife and (good lord) Complete Warrior Samurai, and some other has-beens who've all got it worse off than the Fighter.

I don't recall ever being so relieved for one of my characters as when me and another player convinced the DM to let us swap out levels of CW Samurai for levels of OA Samurai. We had started out both playing CW Samurais on the basis of wanting to be Samurai characters, without actually understanding the terrible trap that awaited us. When I was was made privy to the fact that I had made this terrible error, the other player and I were thankfully allowed to...correct this error. Sure, the OA Samurai's no Warblade, but at least the OA Samurai can do a few things well. I do not want to think about the kind of headache I would have been in for has I stayed in the class (especially with a full-blown Barbarian as our other teammate).

[Kelb_Panthera]

A quick review of my books (honestly little more than a glance) shows that ability damaging and penalizing options are pretty scattered but definitely there, disemboweling strike in complete scoundrel, weakening touch in complete warrior, a simple wounding weapon straight out of the DMG, etc. There are a few in ToB though I see you mentioned a certain distaste for martial adepts. They're there if you're willing to do a little digging.

There're a number of other options available to fighters as well beyond simply doing more damage but, again, you've got to do some dumpster diving to find them.