Energy Affinity for druids

[Morphie]

Hello guys,
So, I'm thinking about choosing Energy Affinity (Miniatures Handbook) as my 9th level feat. One of its prereqs is that I must be able to cast spells of each of these energy types: acid, and fire, cold, electricity.
Fire, cold and electricity I got them covered with Produce Flame, Creeping Cold and Call Lightning, but I don't know of any spells that handle the acid part. Babau slime does acid damage but I'm not sure if it is a spell of the Acid energy type, whatever that is.
Any suggestions?

Thank you :smallsmile:

[Emperor Tippy]

What class are you?

A wizard can just go an buy a zero or first level acid spell. A Sorcerer is in a bit more of a pickle, although really if you are an energy damage blaster Sorcerer then why don't you already have Energy Substitution?

[eggynack]

In a rare turn of events, venomfire (SK, 158) is useful for a non-cheesy purpose. It's a neat thing.

[Morphie]

What class are you?

A wizard can just go an buy a zero or first level acid spell. A Sorcerer is in a bit more of a pickle, although really if you are an energy damage blaster Sorcerer then why don't you already have Energy Substitution?

I'm playing a druid that will reach 9th level, Tippy, so it should be a spell up to 5th level.

About the venomfire, I just banned that spell, I'm not even going to use it as a way to get something, it is just a broken thing, but thanks for the suggestion anyway, eggynack :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

Ah well. I was hopeful that that spell would find a home in a normal place. Anyway, my research has found only one other spell, the similarly titled yet less broken greenfire (UE, 50).

[Greenish]

There's Greenfire (3rd level) from Unapproachable East, though that's 3.0, and Energy Vortex (4th level) from Complete Divine.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ah well. I was hopeful that that spell would find a home in a normal place. Anyway, my research has found only one other spell, the similarly titled yet less broken greenfire (UE, 50).

Oh! I remember that spell. Always wanted to use it, just wish it was a little better. Seemed really nifty though, and certainly one of the highlights of the Nentyar Hunter list. Always wanted a build for a Nentyar Hunter. That picture is just *sigh* awesome.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why don't you just take Energy Substitution from Complete Arcane?

It does the exact same thing except without the level increase and without the spell prerequisite requirements. That means that you don't have to waste three slots every day so that you can continue to benefit from Energy Affinity.

[Morphie]

There's Greenfire (3rd level) from Unapproachable East, though that's 3.0, and Energy Vortex (4th level) from Complete Divine.

Yes!! Thanks a million Greenish, I knew I could count on the Playground's wisdom and all-around awesomeness!!

[eggynack]

There's Greenfire (3rd level) from Unapproachable East, though that's 3.0, and Energy Vortex (4th level) from Complete Divine.
Wow, that really covers all the bases. It's like "Qualify for energy affinity: the spell". Classy.

Oh! I remember that spell. Always wanted to use it, just wish it was a little better. Seemed really nifty though, and certainly one of the highlights of the Nentyar Hunter list. Always wanted a build for a Nentyar Hunter. That picture is just *sigh* awesome.
Yeah, you can do significantly better with a basic call lightning. It's pretty odd though.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes!! Thanks a million Greenish, I knew I could count on the Playground's wisdom and all-around awesomeness!!

Energy vortex was updated in Spell Compendium. SC versions take precedence over earlier versions (unless a DM hasn't allowed SC, in which case I guess Complete Divine would be the right version).

[Morphie]

Why don't you just take Energy Substitution from Complete Arcane?

It does the exact same thing except without the level increase and without the spell prerequisite requirements. That means that you don't have to waste three slots every day so that you can continue to benefit from Energy Affinity.

The reason I'll choose Energy Affinity over Energy Substitution is that I don't need to have another metamagic feat as a prerequisite, wich means I can choose it now at 9th level instead of having to wait until 15th level (12th will go to Dragon Wildshape).
And to choose the feat I don't need to waste any slots with spells from the energy types, I just need to be able to cast them. It also doesn't increase the spell level, which makes it just a better option in my case :)

@ Phelix-Mu: The Energy Vortex from SpC changes its descriptor to the energy I choose when I cast it, so I think it still qualifies.

Thanks for your insights :smallsmile:

[Emperor Tippy]

And to choose the feat I don't need to waste any slots with spells from the energy types, I just need to be able to cast them.

Yes, you do. To use a feat you must meet its prerequisites whenever you want to use it (unlike most PrC's). Its prerequisite isn't being able to prepare those spells, its being able to cast those spells. A druid can only cast those spells when he has them prepared.

Lowest level for each of the energy types are:
Produce Flame (1), Thunderhead (1), Conjure Ice Beast (1), and Greenfire (3)

[Morphie]

Yes, you do. To use a feat you must meet its prerequisites whenever you want to use it (unlike most PrC's). Its prerequisite isn't being able to prepare those spells, its being able to cast those spells. A druid can only cast those spells when he has them prepared.

Lowest level for each of the energy types are:
Produce Flame (1), Thunderhead (1), Conjure Ice Beast (1), and Greenfire (3)

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. By reading it that way, as soon as I cast any of the spells I won't be able to cast the modified spell, because I am no longer able to cast spells of the 4 different energy types.
It comes down to RAW vs RAI, I tend to interpret that the feat specifies that I need to be able to cast them, which I am because I have them in my list, but I don't need to prepare them in order to modify spells with the energy type I choose.

That's just the way I see it anyway.

[Emperor Tippy]

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. By reading it that way I as soon as I cast any of the spells I won't be able to cast the modified spell, because I am no longer able to cast spells of the 4 different energy types.
It comes down to RAW vs RAI, I tend to interpret that the feat specifies that I need to be able to cast them, which I am because I have them in my list, but I don't need to prepare them in order to modify spells with the energy type I choose.

That's just the way I see it anyway.

1) Rules wise there is no ambiguity at all. To use a feat you must meet its prerequisites at the time you want to gain the feats benefit.
2) Energy Affinity states as one of its prerequisites that you be able to cast a spell of each of the four energy types (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire).
3) The Druid is a prepared caster, to be able to cast a spell it must have that spell prepared in one of its spell slots.
4) To modify a spell with Energy Affinity you must choose to do so when you prepare the spell at the beginning of the day.

The best RAW legal choice is to make your first spell prepared for the day be Energy Vortex (as it fills all of the feat requirements on its own), prepare whatever spells you desire prepared with Energy Affinity, and then prepare the rest of your spells. If you should happen to cast Energy Vortex then you won't be able to prepare any more spells with Energy Affinity (as you probably no longer meet its prerequisites) but that doesn't actually matter all that much because you have already got all of your use out of that feat for the day as its loss doesn't have any effect on your already prepared spells.

Also note that upon taking Energy Affinity you need to choose one of the energy types (Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire) and from then on you can only choose to switch a spell to the chosen energy type. If you want to be able to switch spells to either, say, Acid or Cold then you would need to take Energy Affinity: Acid and Energy Affinity: Cold as feat choices.

Honestly you are far better off just grabbing a Rod of Metamagic (Sculpting) for whatever energy type it is you want to change spells to. The greater version is only 24,300 GP while the lesser version is 2,700 GP and the normal version is 10,500 GP.

Granted, I'm kinda mystified that you are trying to flip energy types on spells as a druid in the first place. Druids make really poor blasters and you shouldn't be doing it often enough to invest a feat in doing it better.

[eggynack]

Granted, I'm kinda mystified that you are trying to flip energy types on spells as a druid in the first place. Druids make really poor blasters and you shouldn't be doing it often enough to invest a feat in doing it better.
They're not the worst, though they don't have that crazy metamagicy ceiling that wizards have, and you're probably correct that swapping around energy types is bad. The list generally goes produce flame at first, splinterbolt, possibly with an acorn of far travel, at second, call lightning and hammer of righteousness at third, boreal wind at fourth, and then you summon orglashes forever. Boreal wind is the real standout, producing a bunch of pretty powerful effects in addition to damage, along with enough damage to fairly be called a blasting spell. Call avalanche is a lot more not-blast than blast, but it's a great spell as well. Anyways, I'd say they make blasters that range in quality from decent to pretty alright. Blasting of that quality level might not necessarily be good enough to be useful, but I actually kinda like that list.

[Morphie]

Granted, I'm kinda mystified that you are trying to flip energy types on spells as a druid in the first place. Druids make really poor blasters and you shouldn't be doing it often enough to invest a feat in doing it better.

Yep, I know I could just choose a rod of Energy Substitution and be done with it, but I like the feat and the Druid is already such a powerful class that I don't need to optimize everything I choose. Hell, I don't even know how to optimize everything a druid is capable of doing, so I just pick something and have fun with it. Blasting may be a subpar ability, but it's good to add some flexibility when I choose to do it.

The feats I have for my halfling druid are: Mounted Combat (1), Companion Spellbond(3) and Natural Spell(6).
At level 12 I already decided on Dragon Wild Shape. I'm not planning on changing my faithful riding dog (once again I know this is a subpar choice when compared to a big bear or the dreadful Fleshraker, but I like the dog and I don't want to change), so Natural Bond is not on my plans.

What could be good choices for level 9, 15 and 18? Any thoughts?

[Emperor Tippy]

They're not the worst, though they don't have that crazy metamagicy ceiling that wizards have, and you're probably correct that swapping around energy types is bad. The list generally goes produce flame at first, splinterbolt, possibly with an acorn of far travel, at second, call lightning and hammer of righteousness at third, boreal wind at fourth, and then you summon orglashes forever. Boreal wind is the real standout, producing a bunch of pretty powerful effects in addition to damage, along with enough damage to fairly be called a blasting spell. Call avalanche is a lot more not-blast than blast, but it's a great spell as well. Anyways, I'd say they make blasters that range in quality from decent to pretty alright. Blasting of that quality level might not necessarily be good enough to be useful, but I actually kinda like that list.

Compared to pretty much every other caster? Druids are pretty much hands down the worst of the common full casters when it comes to blasting.

That being said, they have a few spells that are decent at it and can be made pretty alright with a focus on it but there is almost always a better use for those spell slots.

In addition to that, why is a druid taking a feat that allows him to flip energy types for blasting spells in the first place? On a Sorcerer with Metamagic Specialist Energy Substitution is a decent feat as it lets you pretty much pick up Fireball, Orb of Fire, and Wall of Fire and then have pretty much all of your blasting covered regardless of what you run into (these aren't the best blasting spells if you are focused on that but for a regular generalist Sorcerer that gives you a long range AoE spell to deal with mooks and distance snipe, a close range single target SR: No spell that also has a very nasty rider effect, and a medium range BFC and damage dealing spell that can be made very nasty).

[eggynack]

Compared to pretty much every other caster? Druids are pretty much hands down the worst of the common full casters when it comes to blasting.
Even worse than clerics? I was unaware of that fact, if it's a true one. I forgot creeping cold on my list, by the way.


That being said, they have a few spells that are decent at it and can be made pretty alright with a focus on it but there is almost always a better use for those spell slots.
Maybe for most of them, but I stand by boreal wind as a reasonable 4th level preparation, owing partly to its utility and BFC powers, but also partly to the actual damage. Splinterbolt is also nice, in a shooting golems in an AMF sort of way, though the fact that it's a ranged attack instead of ranged touch is problematic. Still druids can pick up a great dex mod if they want. Summoning orglashes, and maybe storm elementals, seems quite powerful as well. Mostly, I like druid blasting because of the fact that the spells sometimes have great side effects, and the spells tend to fit with an attrition style of combat, which I appreciate. Like, three cones of cold is nice when it comes attached to a massive air elemental.


In addition to that, why is a druid taking a feat that allows him to flip energy types for blasting spells in the first place?
Yeah, I've got nothing on this one. Speaking of the last stuff I said, I'd advise picking up rashemi elemental summoning as the 9th level feat. Quite powerful, but somewhat blasty, so it fits in alright. It maybe doesn't fit in with this odd energy swapping thing, but it's good.

[Emperor Tippy]

Even worse than clerics? I was unaware of that fact, if it's a true one. I forgot creeping cold on my list, by the way.
Cleric's can be fairly nasty blasters if they so desire. Especially if they focus on being a blaster cleric, although core only they are pretty bad.

On another note, earlier this week I watched a cleric 11 throw out an Arcane Thesis, Fell Drain, Invisible, Easy Meta: Chain, Easy Meta: Fell Drain, Harm prepared with a Bead of Karma as his response to a whole host of Hezrou demons that had shown up to take issue with the party. One round and I watched ten CR 11 demons abruptly become 3 CR 11 demons (stupid SR penetration that would only fail on a natural one and stupid saves that would only succeed on a natural 20).


Maybe for most of them, but I stand by boreal wind as a reasonable 4th level preparation, owing partly to its utility and BFC powers, but also partly to the actual damage. Splinterbolt is also nice, in a shooting golems in an AMF sort of way, though the fact that it's a ranged attack instead of ranged touch is problematic. Still druids can pick up a great dex mod if they want. Summoning orglashes, and maybe storm elementals, seems quite powerful as well. Mostly, I like druid blasting because of the fact that the spells sometimes have great side effects, and the spells tend to fit with an attrition style of combat, which I appreciate. Like, three cones of cold is nice when it comes attached to a massive air elemental.
Oh I take no issue with preparing some blasting spells. In point of fact I think that most every caster should have at least a few prepared but spending feats on it is something that I really don't get unless you are going full bore blaster and/or are a Sorcerer (in which case grabbing Energy Substitution is a very good choice), and if you are going full bore blaster then you shouldn't be a druid.

[eggynack]

Cleric's can be fairly nasty blasters if they so desire. Especially if they focus on being a blaster cleric, although core only they are pretty bad.

On another note, earlier this week I watched a cleric 11 throw out an Arcane Thesis, Fell Drain, Invisible, Easy Meta: Chain, Easy Meta: Fell Drain, Harm prepared with a Bead of Karma as his response to a whole host of Hezrou demons that had shown up to take issue with the party. One round and I watched ten CR 11 demons abruptly become 3 CR 11 demons (stupid SR penetration that would only fail on a natural one and stupid saves that would only succeed on a natural 20).
That does sound pretty nifty. Is it mostly some sort of access to arcane thesis that grants them blasting prowess, or is there some other fact of the cleric's existence that gets them to that point.



Oh I take no issue with preparing some blasting spells. In point of fact I think that most every caster should have at least a few prepared but spending feats on it is something that I really don't get unless you are going full bore blaster and/or are a Sorcerer (in which case grabbing Energy Substitution is a very good choice), and if you are going full bore blaster then you shouldn't be a druid.
Ah, very true on that count. Pretty much the only investment I'd make is rashemi elemental summoning, and maybe some source of extension for creeping cold. Both things have non-blasting functions, for such is the nature of their existence, and without that they probably wouldn't be worth it, though a lesser rod of extend is rather cheap. I've been pretty impressed by the versatility of that aspect of the list, but I'd never build a character around blasting. I have heard of some interesting call lightning shenanigans, but I haven't had a chance to assess that stuff in a serious way.

[Emperor Tippy]

That does sound pretty nifty. Is it mostly some sort of access to arcane thesis that grants them blasting prowess, or is there some other fact of the cleric's existence that gets them to that point.
Oh Arcane Thesis makes it easier/better but its not a real necessity. The Cleric spell list isn't great for blasting but it still have a large number of decent blasting spells on it (as you would kinda expect with it being about the largest spell list in the entire game) and you can easily tailor that blasting towards what you expect to face for the day.

Going Blaster is fairly highly suboptimal for a Cleric but its still better than a Druid doing it.

I mean about the best single target damage spell in the entire game is Harm. It's a flat 150 points of damage. It doesn't match the metamagic orbs or heavy metamagic investment on other blasting spells (at least not unless you meta it, Occular Spell, Twinned, Split Ray, Fell Drain Harm potentially deals 600 points of damage and four negative levels against a single target and can potentially be cast from a 6th level slot while Twinned Chained Harm does potentially 300 damage and 2 negative levels to CL targets) but it is still enough when you first get it to drop a significant percentage of CR 11-14 creatures to 1 HP when you get it. And if you choose the Destruction domain then you can spontaneously covert to it with Domain Spontaneity.

[Morphie]

Guys, I value your insights and thank you for that, but honestly I'm not planing on playing a blaster druid, I just wanted to give him some flexibility to the blasting spells he has. Nothing else.

Regarding the feats, I can't choose Rashemi Elemental Summoning because I'm not from Rashemen, we're playing 3.5e and UE is a 3e book, and finally, even if I managed to get it approved by my group, it has nothing to do with the char.
Extend Spell is a good choice but I'll take care of that with lesser rod of extend and a standard one when I get the money, as well as Empower Spell.

Regarding this, what would be your choices for the 9th, 15th and 18th levels? Wild shape feats? Assume Supernatural Ability? Skill focus Craft (basketweaving)?

Thank you

[eggynack]

Oh Arcane Thesis makes it easier/better but its not a real necessity. The Cleric spell list isn't great for blasting but it still have a large number of decent blasting spells on it (as you would kinda expect with it being about the largest spell list in the entire game) and you can easily tailor that blasting towards what you expect to face for the day.

Going Blaster is fairly highly suboptimal for a Cleric but its still better than a Druid doing it.

I mean about the best single target damage spell in the entire game is Harm. It's a flat 150 points of damage. It doesn't match the metamagic orbs or heavy metamagic investment on other blasting spells (at least not unless you meta it, Occular Spell, Twinned, Split Ray, Fell Drain Harm potentially deals 600 points of damage and four negative levels against a single target and can potentially be cast from a 6th level slot while Twinned Chained Harm does potentially 300 damage and 2 negative levels to CL targets) but it is still enough when you first get it to drop a significant percentage of CR 11-14 creatures to 1 HP when you get it. And if you choose the Destruction domain then you can spontaneously covert to it with Domain Spontaneity.
Harm is a pretty sweet one, though it's rather high level in comparison to a number of options. Clerics are an odd breed, in that domains often inform so much of what they can do.

Guys, I value your insights and thank you for that, but honestly I'm not planing on playing a blaster druid, I just wanted to give him some flexibility to the blasting spells he has. Nothing else.

Regarding the feats, I can't choose Rashemi Elemental Summoning because I'm not from Rashemen, we're playing 3.5e and UE is a 3e book, and finally, even if I managed to get it approved by my group, it has nothing to do with the char.
Extend Spell is a good choice but I'll take care of that with lesser rod of extend and a standard one when I get the money, as well as Empower Spell.

Regarding this, what would be your choices for the 9th, 15th and 18th levels? Wild shape feats? Assume Supernatural Ability? Skill focus Craft (basketweaving)?

Thank you
I was actually assuming a rod for creeping cold extension purposes. Well, that or fairy dust. Probably the rod though. As for increasing blasting flexibility, this doesn't do that all that much. If you look at my list of good druid blasting spells, they tend to come from a variety of energy types, from fire to cold to electricity to force, though they apparently leave behind acid most of the time, and sonic is uncommon. Long story short, if you're not picking this up purely for some random flavor reason, then you probably shouldn't pick it up at all. It doesn't really do anything.

I've always (meaning a couple of weeks at most) been a fan of exalted wild shape, and that kicks in about that time. Pick up a mantle of the beast, and dimension door away as a swift action, before fooming the enemy with a spell in the same turn. I think it fills a different hole than dragon wild shape does, though I haven't done the most research into the latter feat. Are you taking halfling druid substitution levels? I would assume that you are, and if so spontaneous summoner can potentially sub in for the lost spontaneous summons. Not the best, but it's decent.

[Morphie]

I've always (meaning a couple of weeks at most) been a fan of exalted wild shape, and that kicks in about that time. Pick up a mantle of the beast, and dimension door away as a swift action, before fooming the enemy with a spell in the same turn. I think it fills a different hole than dragon wild shape does, though I haven't done the most research into the latter feat. Are you taking halfling druid substitution levels? I would assume that you are, and if so spontaneous summoner can potentially sub in for the lost spontaneous summons. Not the best, but it's decent.

Exalted Wild Shape is a great option, though I'm not sure if the DM would allow me to choose something from BoED. It is really a great feat, I'll be considering it.

I am indeed taking the halfling druid sub levels, except for the 5th one, undersized wildshaping didn't seemed a good idea at the time. About the summoning, we have a malconvoker in the party and that is his thing so I don't want to take that role.

By the way, our party's composition is:
Lesser Aasimar Cleric/ Radiant Servant of Pelor
Human Specialist Wizard (Conjuration)/ Malconvoker
Gnome Warmage
Human Rogue/Swashbuckler/Thief-Acrobat (1 lvl dip)
Wild Elf Druid/Beastmaster (1 lvl dip)
Halfling Druid (my char)

The DM will also play a Human Duskblade when someone else takes the reins as DM - it is a big adventure and each one of us will be DMing a part - mine will be from 12th to 16th level.

So, besides Exalted Wild Shape (wich gets a two-thumbs up), what could be other good choices?

[eggynack]

Well, if you do end up on the exalted train, exalted companion makes for a pretty good feat, especially if you use it to put VoP on the riding dog. Frozen wild shape for cryohydra form is a nice one, though I honestly suspect that it's underpowered compared to both exalted and dragon. Craft wondrous is always an option, given how wide a variance there is between good and bad magic items for druids. After that, most of what I have on the list is summoning stuff, and I've yet to launch any serious investigations into most feat options. A good chunk of my most recent efforts have been towards optimizing humanoid wild shape from fangshields druid substitution levels. It's an odd little list of possibilities. Also, fey ring. I've gotta find some fey that's worth binding beyond just spirit of the land and storm rider.

[Chronos]

Other classes might have better support for metamagic shenanigans (outside of core, at least), but right out of the box druids are the best blasters. Who else has a spell comparable to Fire Seeds, or Control Winds?

[eggynack]

Other classes might have better support for metamagic shenanigans (outside of core, at least), but right out of the box druids are the best blasters. Who else has a spell comparable to Fire Seeds, or Control Winds?
Control winds doesn't really deal much damage at all. Sandstorm deals slightly more, but not enough to be relevant. As for fire seeds, it seems alright, but I'm not incredibly impressed by it. Acorn grenades deal rather standard damage in a rather standard manner, and holly berry bombs require a level of foreknowledge about the battlefield that should make whatever fight you're using the bombs for trivial, especially when you consider the fact that the encounter has to happen so quickly after you set the bombs, from a strategic perspective. I'd generally take boreal wind over that any day, between the comparable damage, the much better area/range, the BFC impact, the DoT effect, and all of the minor utility you can get out of prepping a gust of wind effect.

[Morphie]

The druid has good blasting spells, but my favorites are those that don't deal energy damage, like splinterbolt, vortex of teeth, Spiritjaw and such, because those are harder to be immune to.
I was thinking of picking Energy Affinity just to give me more options, and since it doesn't increase the spell level there's no loss in having it.

But if I were to leave that option behind what could I choose?
I have 3 feat slots available (9,15 and 18), this is a big adventure so it will probably end at epic levels. Besides Exalted Wild Shape (great feat, but I'm not sure if my DM will allow it), what say you, ladies and gentlemen?

Sorry for insisting in this, but I see the class as powerful as it is without depending on feats too much - besides Natural Spell - and I'm having trouble finding good feats that will give even more versatility to the class.