Belkar and His Relevance to the Plot

[Kesamijr]

I have a theory. I think that Belkar is Serini Toormuck's Son/grandson/nephew/something. I think they're relatives, and Belkar, being the way he is, knows some incrdeibly plot relevant information, but isn't telling it. I think this because Rich said that for at least one of the Characters he couldn't reveal their backstory in On the Origin of the PCs because it was too plot critical. The characters that didn't get long backstories (their backstories were a few days) were Elan, Vaarsuvius, and Belkar. True, Elan has Tarquin, but he said it was plot-CRITICAL, which I don't think Tarquin is. Along with that, in the Belkar backstory once again, we don't see much of his life before all this.

[mootoall]

... Rich said that for at least one of the Characters he couldn't reveal their backstory in On the Origin of the PCs because it was too plot critical ...

I think that was about Haley. Something about her "I'm not exactly what you'd call ..." thing in NCftPB.

[Kesamijr]

Do you mean Haley being from Cliffport? Cause that didn't seem super plot-critical to me. Important, but not CRITICAL, like Tarquin

[ORione]

Do you mean Haley being from Cliffport? Cause that didn't seem super plot-critical to me. Important, but not CRITICAL, like Tarquin

They mean this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html). What Haley's saying in the next-to-last panel was translated as something along the lines of "I'm not exactly what you might call-".

[Ramien]

The plot has spent how long in the Empire of Blood? Tarquin has certainly shown himself to be critical to a fairly long plot arc, and even the main quest, considering one of the Gates was in his metaphorical backyard. He's just not the main villain he thinks he should be.

[Happy Gravity]

True, Elan has Tarquin, but he said it was plot-CRITICAL, which I don't think Tarquin is.
Ice burn! Haha.

[KillianHawkeye]

Tarquin is certainly critical to the plot of the current book at least. I'd say that counts. The Giant wouldn't have wanted to reveal too many details about him so many years in advance.

[FujinAkari]

Additionally, Rich has also specifically said the reason Belkar's backstory wasn't explored, and it had nothing to do with plot spoilers.

[Trillium]

In truth, Belkar is a nephew of Frudu Boggins and he is secretly pursuing a quest to retrieve the Ming of Power, which his uncle cast into a volcano under deception of then still-human Xykon.

[Ceaon]

It could have been something as simple as Vaarsuvius' family life.

[tassaron]

It could have been something as simple as Vaarsuvius' family life.

I'm pretty sure V's family was indeed it. Elan's backstory probably wouldn't have much if anything about Tarquin in it (he didn't even know Tarquin back then) and Rich already said that giving Belkar a backstory would make his character less funny. V is the only one who we know for sure had unrevealed backstory that was relevant to the plot.

[Ridureyu]

I think that was about Haley. Something about her "I'm not exactly what you'd call ..." thing in NCftPB.

Yeah, pretty much everybody understood that it was a joke, with "...a virgin" implied to be the cutoff bit. Not "a half-celestial," "a half-snarl," or "A man."

[martianmister]

Yeah, pretty much everybody understood that it was a joke, with "...a virgin" implied to be the cutoff bit. Not "a half-celestial," "a half-snarl," or "A man."

That's a really big claim. :smallsigh:

[Benthesquid]

Yeah, pretty much everybody understood that it was a joke, with "...a virgin" implied to be the cutoff bit. Not "a half-celestial," "a half-snarl," or "A man."

I'm not sure I've seen anyone suggest that Haley was saying "I'm not really what you'd call a man."

[Copperdragon]

It could have been something as simple as Vaarsuvius' family life.

I always assumed it was this.

We still do not know if Haley has something in her past, but it is very obvious why we got to see another scene from Vaarsuvius' past. A scene, that does not tell us anything new. I think there was nothing new to tell as Vaarsuvius' plot hinged on us now knowing he has (ny now: had?) a family and that was basically the only then-unknown thing about him that has relevancy to the plot.

[King of Nowhere]

I always tought the consensus was that what rich could not reveal in otoopc was what eugene narrates to roy in the flashback, because it was then narrated in sod.

[Grogmir]

That's a really big claim. :smallsigh:

Indeed it is... I think Haley answering the line "A Virgin" is hardly a massive surprise. She's not exactly uncomfortable in her own sexuality.

That line has never been answered satisfactorily.

I am also of the opinion that the (Plot Critical) Back Story we are missing is Haleys'.

[malloyd]

Indeed it is... I think Haley answering the line "A Virgin" is hardly a massive surprise. She's not exactly uncomfortable in her own sexuality.

I've always read it as some variation on a good person. Not being genuinely or sufficiently Good seems to be one of her insecurities.

[Grogmir]

I've always read it as some variation on a good person. Not being genuinely or sufficiently Good seems to be one of her insecurities.

I can understand the "good person" angle. Totally. The whole Black teenager years, thieves guild. It wouldn't surprise me that at some point in her life Haley was or thought she was of the Evil alignment, quickly going to Neutral and now firmly on the way to good.

I'm still routing for the "Human" angle myself though. Starshine and
Mummy went to heaven! Maybe... Just maybe!

[Seto]

Ha ! One does not bother A SEXY, SHOELESS GOD OF WAR with something as insignificant as a petty background !!

[Anatares]

In my opinion I don't think Belkar's past is of any significance. It's his future that I'm really interested in.

We had a bit of foreshadowing when Soon talked to Miko about redemption, then the comic has the hippie vision-quest thing for Belkar with Shojo talking about how he needs to play within the rules of the world (ie. Stop being an *******, be a contributing member of the party, and pay attention to the plot) or he won't last long. Since then, people have been anticipating some kind of redemption for Belkar coming up soon before his predicted death. Possibly sacrificing himself to save the party, maybe something to do with the rift like Kraagor before him, etc.

Also, regarding the books (Spoilered for anyone who doesn't own them yet):
The books each feature a character printed on the inside cover, and the write-up by Rich in a couple of them explains that it's because this is 'their story', that this character has a lot of development in this book.

For instance, Book 2 features Roy. This is No Cure for the Paladin Blues, where he goes from abandoning Elan to later realizing his mistake and going back for him. Also more significantly, in his pursuit of Miko he puts his party's feelings behind his own, and only turns around to defend them after being turned into a woman. He learns that his colleagues matter.

Book 3, War & XPs, is Haley. This one starts with her voice lost and ends with her living up to her role as second in command of the Order. It's not a whole book of her development as a character, but there are some definite turning points, like her relationship with Elan. In Book 4 there's many scenes with her and Celia, but I don't think they are development as much as trying to make the best of the situation.

Book 4, Don't Split the Party, is Vaarsuvius. Here s/he is obsessed with finding the other half of the order and lets his/her health dwindle, then sells his/her soul to fiends to save his/her family back home, even though it's not well received.

Book 5 in my mind is focussed on Elan. Elan was featured on the inside cover of Book 1, but none of the characters had significant development in the early life of the comic, so I'm not counting it. However Book 5 will most likely feature Elan again, as it has mostly been about his family reuniting and then crumbling before him.

Book 6, I'm voting on either Belkar or Durkon as the featured character development character. Belkar has made a lot of contributions to the point where Roy is listening when he talks, and he's due to die soon. On the other hand, Durkon has just been turned into a vampire and is on his way home once this battle wraps up.

Book 7, if there is one, will feature whoever is left.

To sum up, I think Belkar's turn in the spotlight is coming soon, and may reveal a lot more than we were anticipating about the murderer under four feet tall. :smallsmile:

[Ghost Nappa]

In my opinion I don't think Belkar's past is of any significance. It's his future that I'm really interested in.

We had a bit of foreshadowing when Soon talked to Miko about redemption, then the comic has the hippie vision-quest thing for Belkar with Shojo talking about how he needs to play within the rules of the world (ie. Stop being an *******, be a contributing member of the party, and pay attention to the plot) or he won't last long. Since then, people have been anticipating some kind of redemption for Belkar coming up soon before his predicted death. Possibly sacrificing himself to save the party, maybe something to do with the rift like Kraagor before him, etc.

Also, regarding the books (Spoilered for anyone who doesn't own them yet):
The books each feature a character printed on the inside cover, and the write-up by Rich in a couple of them explains that it's because this is 'their story', that this character has a lot of development in this book.

For instance, Book 2 features Roy. This is No Cure for the Paladin Blues, where he goes from abandoning Elan to later realizing his mistake and going back for him. Also more significantly, in his pursuit of Miko he puts his party's feelings behind his own, and only turns around to defend them after being turned into a woman. He learns that his colleagues matter.

Book 3, War & XPs, is Haley. This one starts with her voice lost and ends with her living up to her role as second in command of the Order. It's not a whole book of her development as a character, but there are some definite turning points, like her relationship with Elan. In Book 4 there's many scenes with her and Celia, but I don't think they are development as much as trying to make the best of the situation.

Book 4, Don't Split the Party, is Vaarsuvius. Here s/he is obsessed with finding the other half of the order and lets his/her health dwindle, then sells his/her soul to fiends to save his/her family back home, even though it's not well received.

Book 5 in my mind is focussed on Elan. Elan was featured on the inside cover of Book 1, but none of the characters had significant development in the early life of the comic, so I'm not counting it. However Book 5 will most likely feature Elan again, as it has mostly been about his family reuniting and then crumbling before him.

Book 6, I'm voting on either Belkar or Durkon as the featured character development character. Belkar has made a lot of contributions to the point where Roy is listening when he talks, and he's due to die soon. On the other hand, Durkon has just been turned into a vampire and is on his way home once this battle wraps up.

Book 7, if there is one, will feature whoever is left.

To sum up, I think Belkar's turn in the spotlight is coming soon, and may reveal a lot more than we were anticipating about the murderer under four feet tall. :smallsmile:


Book -1: Redcloak
Book 0: Durkon
Book 1: Elan
Book 2: Roy
Book 3: Haley
Book 4: Vaarsuvius
Book D: Heavily-Templated Snail

Book 5 Prediction: Durkon
Book 6 Prediction: Belkar
Book 7 Prediction: MitD

[Ridureyu]

That's a really big claim. :smallsigh:

Okay. explain to me all of the proof that Haley is half-dragon, or half-celestial, or half-unicorn, or some other crazy thing.

My take is that the "I'm not exactly what you might call..." was a one-off joke. That's what most people assumed at the time - and honestly, "Haley is a half-Jedi" is brought up as no more than a joke 99% of the time. So please, it is your burden of proof to convince me, not the other way around.

[jere7my]

Okay. explain to me all of the proof that Haley is half-dragon, or half-celestial, or half-unicorn, or some other crazy thing.

My take is that the "I'm not exactly what you might call..." was a one-off joke. That's what most people assumed at the time - and honestly, "Haley is a half-Jedi" is brought up as no more than a joke 99% of the time. So please, it is your burden of proof to convince me, not the other way around.

The burden of proof is on whomever is making a claim. Your definite statement that she was admitting to not being a virgin requires proof; someone saying "We don't know what it meant yet, but it could be..." requires a lot less.

We know it has to be something so revealing that she "hasn't even told Vaarsuvius" about it yet. "I'm not exactly what you would call a virgin" isn't something that either Haley or Vaarsuvius would be bothered by, so it's not a good candidate. "I'm not exactly what you would call human" fits that bill a lot better, but there are plenty of other things it could be.

[Ghost Nappa]

The burden of proof is on whomever is making a claim. Your definite statement that she was admitting to not being a virgin requires proof; someone saying "We don't know what it meant yet, but it could be..." requires a lot less.


For future reference, this name for this concept is known as Hitchens' Razor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27_razor)

I would however say that while the "not a virgin" theory is plausible, it is not one I will support and there's no evidence that actually confirms any possible speculation, barring Word of Giant which we are unlikely to get.

[Ridureyu]

The burden of proof is on whomever is making a claim. Your definite statement that she was admitting to not being a virgin requires proof; someone saying "We don't know what it meant yet, but it could be..." requires a lot less.

We know it has to be something so revealing that she "hasn't even told Vaarsuvius" about it yet. "I'm not exactly what you would call a virgin" isn't something that either Haley or Vaarsuvius would be bothered by, so it's not a good candidate. "I'm not exactly what you would call human" fits that bill a lot better, but there are plenty of other things it could be.


SO your claim that she is half-celestial requires zero proof?

AMAZING! You proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that half of her heritage is non-human, simply by saying, "Nuh-uh!"

Again, prove it to me. Everybody seems to have accepted it as irrefutably proven that she is half-celestial/dragon/unicorn farts or whatever. I'm asking to see this proof. Unless people provide proof that half of Haley's heritage is non-human, I will not accept it.

DO you or do you not believe that "Haley is half-human half___" requires proof? Or did you just say that "Denying that Haley is half-human half___" is the only statement that requires proof?

[DaggerPen]

SO your claim that she is half-celestial requires zero proof?

AMAZING! You proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that half of her heritage is non-human, simply by saying, "Nuh-uh!"

Again, prove it to me. Everybody seems to have accepted it as irrefutably proven that she is half-celestial/dragon/unicorn farts or whatever. I'm asking to see this proof. Unless people provide proof that half of Haley's heritage is non-human, I will not accept it.

DO you or do you not believe that "Haley is half-human half___" requires proof? Or did you just say that "Denying that Haley is half-human half___" is the only statement that requires proof?

Can I ask where Jere7my said that Haley was half-celestial? Certainly not in this thread, unless I have managed to completely miss a post.

I find the "a virgin" answer a stretch. I also find the half celestial theory a stretch. There are many possible answers, none of which have much proof behind them at this point in time. I personally find it probable that the line may actually become relevant at some point, since it's an odd line to cut off as a joke, but it's hard to be sure. It is not the case, though, that most of us understood that the appropriate follow-up to the line would have been "a virgin."

It is not a binary choice between "a virgin" and "human."

[Ridureyu]

The default assumption on this forum seems to be that the missing word was "human." I was using the collective, plural "you," by that meaning APPARENTLY FREAKING EVERYBODY who seems to believe it. When I treat it like it's implausible or a joke, I get raked over the coals for my wrongheaded thinking. And in fact, there is even one post implying that the "human" claim does not require defense or proof. So I am asking: Where is this proof? Somebody needs to compile evidence through the comic. Come on, true believers! Surely you have it. Right?

[DaggerPen]

If "pretty much everybody" understood that it was a joke about Haley not being a virgin, how is the default assumption on this forum that it was her admitting to not being human?

For the record, I find the "not human" theory implausible. I understand the appeal of the half-Celestial theory - her name is Starshine (much like how the Draketooth name indicated the Draketooth's dragon descent), and there was a commentary line somewhere about the mirror nature of Haley and Sabine running deeper than it initially appeared (and what better to oppose a demon than a celestial?), but we've seen both her parents. They're pretty human-looking. We saw her mother "going to heaven", even, and rather than some ascent into heaven, she just died. And other theories like "part dragon" have at best the slimmest shred of evidence behind them ("She loves gold! She made a joking confession to being part dragon!").

I just also think that there's no evidence that it was a joke about Haley not being a virgin, and that that claim requires the same evidence that a "not human" claim would. The position to take in absence of evidence is that we just don't know what Haley would have said; any claims to have figured it out require substantiation.

[jere7my]

SO your claim that she is half-celestial requires zero proof?

Since I didn't make that claim, I'm not sure why you think I need to prove it.

What I did say was that any definite claim—like yours, "She was going to say 'virgin'"—requires proof. Suggesting a possibility only requires that it not be disprovable. It is possible that she was going to say she was not exactly human. It's also possible that she was going to say she was not a virgin, but that seems at odds with her statement that it's something she hadn't even told Vaarsuvius.


AMAZING! You proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that half of her heritage is non-human, simply by saying, "Nuh-uh!"

Both halves of that are false.


Again, prove it to me. Everybody seems to have accepted it as irrefutably proven that she is half-celestial/dragon/unicorn farts or whatever. I'm asking to see this proof. Unless people provide proof that half of Haley's heritage is non-human, I will not accept it.

I don't "accept it as irrefutably proven." I do think it's a possibility.


DO you or do you not believe that "Haley is half-human half___" requires proof? Or did you just say that "Denying that Haley is half-human half___" is the only statement that requires proof?

Both of those statements would require proof, if anyone were making them.

[Knaight]

DO you or do you not believe that "Haley is half-human half___" requires proof? Or did you just say that "Denying that Haley is half-human half___" is the only statement that requires proof?

You aren't just saying that Haley isn't a half-human half-whatever. You are specifically saying that the concluding word in that statement was "virgin", and that "pretty much everybody understood that it was a joke, with '...a virgin' implied to be the cutoff bit. Not 'a half-celestial,' 'a half-snarl,' or 'A man.'"

That much does require proof, and observing that it does doesn't somehow magically elevate the half-human hypothesis to not requiring proof. There are a number of possibilities, from alluding to her disinclination to trust to the aforementioned outlandish half-human concept.

Note that I say this as someone who thinks "a virgin" is a fairly likely end to that line, given that it is the sort of thing likely to be brought up in fictional representation of dates, and that the concept has been used directly in the comic (Lien, with the orcs).

[MtlGuy]

I have a theory. I think that Belkar is Serini Toormuck's Son/grandson/nephew/something. I think they're relatives, and Belkar, being the way he is, knows some incrdeibly plot relevant information, but isn't telling it. I think this because Rich said that for at least one of the Characters he couldn't reveal their backstory in On the Origin of the PCs because it was too plot critical. The characters that didn't get long backstories (their backstories were a few days) were Elan, Vaarsuvius, and Belkar. True, Elan has Tarquin, but he said it was plot-CRITICAL, which I don't think Tarquin is. Along with that, in the Belkar backstory once again, we don't see much of his life before all this.

Ok, interesting theory. However, the Giant stated that the various members of the OOTS have varying degrees of backstory much like PCs have. He's referenced the level one PC with a short story describing him vs the level 15 PC with two sentences. He went on to mention that in Belkar's case, it's best not to examine his past too thoroughly because he's funnier as a psychotic little jerk than as sob story with a past full of abuse. I compare Belkar to Eric Cartman, in that both of them will take any opportunity to do or say the worst thing relevant to the situation at hand. It's just that no one is taking responsibility for Cartman, whereas Roy takes responsibility for Belkar. I think the character Mr. Burlew is referring to is Elan. He didn't do anything in the prequel other than demonstrate that Roy is not the first lawful good entity to struggle with his morality while putting up with Elan. Then he give's Roy some help recruiting the party and Roy saves him a spot not yet realizing that Elan is dumb as a bag of hammers (heart of gold though).

[Bulldog Psion]

not yet realizing that Elan is dumb as a bag of hammers (heart of gold though).

"Sharp as a sack of wet mice," to quote an old Foghorn Leghorn cartoon. :smallbiggrin:

It wouldn't surprise me if Serini was distantly related to Belkar in some way. By the same token, however, it also wouldn't be a surprise if they were totally, utterly unrelated. We've had a lot of uncomfortable kinship issues in the comic. Throwing in another relative -- for Belkar, this time -- strikes me as verging on repetitive and lacking in impact, so I doubt Mr. Burlew will do it.

[Acrux]

I've thought that Haley may have some draconic ancestry based on the Giant's use of asides from her as revealing important information, or through "jokes" that end up being truth. For one example, Haley mentions the idea of using a "really evil" sounding soul-bind long before we hear about Mother Dragon or soul splicing. There are two or three others that I can't remember offhand.

What makes me think Haley may have draconic relatives is her remark to Durkon in comic 131 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html) about being half dragon. A joke used as a cover for her grief? Definitely. But Haley also relies on bluffing to hide her real feelings (she especially did at this point in the comic).

I know it's weak evidence, but the idea seems intriguing to me based on other times similar situations have occurred throughout the comic.

[Domino Quartz]

I've thought that Haley may have some draconic ancestry based on the Giant's use of asides from her as revealing important information, or through "jokes" that end up being truth. For one example, Haley mentions the idea of using a "really evil" sounding soul-bind long before we hear about Mother Dragon or soul splicing. There are two or three others that I can't remember offhand.

That one makes no sense as an example, because it was not a "joke" about the existence of soul binding; it was just one about using it in that particular case. Later evidence/confirmation that soul-binding exists doesn't mean that a joke that Haley makes about herself (or anything, for that matter) will later turn out to be true.

[DaggerPen]

The forum's pulled off some really surprising predictions over the years, despite anything from lacking evidence to evidence being flat-out against it - General Tarquin being Elan's father, Haley's father being held prisoner by Elan's father, Thog being the Champion, Julio Scoundrel saving the day, the Draketooths being dragon-descendants (and even one person, albeit jokingly, called that they would have been killed by Familicide, which was kind of impressive), Malack being a vampire, and so on. So while part of it's probably just a "dartboard with every imaginable space filled" effect, when a theory comes up on the forum fairly often, I do tend to give it fair hearing. But in the case of Haley not being entirely human, I just don't think it's going to pan out, in part because neither of Haley's parents appear nonhuman in any of their appearances, but mostly because some posts by the Giant himself have poked fun at that as a common theory, IIRC.

[Jay R]

Here is Belkar's documented relevance to the plot:

:belkar:: Well gosh golly, Roy. I'm so sorry not everyone else's stunning revelations are story-driven enough for you. "Whine, whine, whine, I'm Roy and I want more plot points!" We can't all be the straight man, you know! Some of us tell jokes for a living! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html)