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View Full Version : Control Freak GM: Therapy Needed



Archpaladin Zousha
2013-12-09, 12:25 AM
I've sort of noticed a bad pattern in my GMing style. I'm a huge control freak when it comes to narrative and characters. I find myself insisting certain character styles and archetypes to players that fit best with whatever Adventure Path I'm running with them (currently Rise of the Runelords, where I sort of cajoled a player away from being a cleric of the deity she really wanted, Arshea, to Desna, which I felt meshed better with RotRL's storyline, and basically dictated to another player their character, as they had no idea what Golarion was like and as long as they played a rogue, they'd be happy). It also compels me to play GMPCs if I feel the party's makeup doesn't include something I deem important to the narrative (like a wizard to be obsessed with Thassilonian stuff in Rise of the Runelords). I know that controlling aspects come from fear, and I believe I've identified mine as a fear of a lack of narrative cohesion. That if I just let people play what they want, the characters won't mesh with the Adventure Path's storyline or setting, and that as a result, certain themes or ideas I feel are essential to the AP's narrative structure simply end up not addressed, or that certain items don't reach their full potential as a result (Raven's Head in Carrion Crown, for example, only gets its best abilities when wielded by someone with the channel energy class feature who worships Pharasma. Many of the items or characters in Kingmaker seem to be geared towards a chaotic party, especially Briar, which as a CN weapon won't work in the hands of, say, a paladin in the group.)

What should I do to curb this tendency so I'm less of a jerk to my players?

MonochromeTiger
2013-12-09, 12:32 AM
that's... a liiiiiiiittle difficult to actually give advice on, tricks that work for others may not work the same for you and vice versa. I think the best suggestion I can think of is to distract yourself a bit, are your players enjoying the game? are they interacting with the story to some degree? because having gone through that particular campaign I can honestly say the story will work even if they don't notice all the details.

valadil
2013-12-09, 03:29 AM
Why not just run games with pregen characters? If cohesion is that important to you, this is the best way to do it. And you can be totally up front about it, as opposed to inviting players to your game and then telling them how their characters work.

I did a lot of LARPing in college. I don't think I made a single character for those games. They were all weekend long pregen affairs. And they ran beautifully because you had 10-70 characters with interwoven plot, carefully crafted over many instances of the game being run.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-12-09, 07:21 AM
Somehow I doubt the players on the forum I run this on would respond well to pre-gens.

BWR
2013-12-09, 07:26 AM
There's nothing wrong with telling your players up front that for the type of game you will be running they must restrict themselves to certain choices. That's not being a control freak, that's just prepping the game to run smoothly.
Even encouraging someone to have certain mechanical or personality aspects is ok. Just be honest about the reasons and make it known before character creation, and most people will be happy to play along.

If they have made characters and you try to change them after creation, that's a bit annoying but I wouldn't call it game breaking.

Trying to artificially limit their actions in game, telling them that they have to do this or not do that during play, taking over their characters; that's being a control freak.

Brookshw
2013-12-09, 07:33 AM
There's nothing wrong with limiting class options for a campaign if they don't fit, don't stress too much about it. Someone playing a high knight in an oriental campaign has a hard time meshing with the setting. I'd say try to work with your players to have a coherentparty that makes sense for the campaign. Refluff things they want to make it work. I don't like running premade settings, but if a player wants something from fr, sure, let's take a look together and see if we can tweak it to match whatever we're doing for this particular campaign.

Mastikator
2013-12-09, 08:39 AM
Somehow I doubt the players on the forum I run this on would respond well to pre-gens.

Can't hurt to ask if they're interested.

Frenth Alunril
2013-12-09, 09:48 AM
This has a feel of over scripting. Don't help them, and back off on your script.

My players recently entered a dungeon crawl, because we were kind of stuck in our old game. So, when I started designing the dungeon, I made it clear there would be lots of traps and tricks. To make it easy for them I let them all play gestalt characters, expecting them all to play something and a rogue. I even suggested that they would need rogues.

5 players, 10 classes, no rogues, guess when the tpk happened? It didn't take long.

But, all of that being said, it feels like you are way over scripted. Role play is about generating responses collaboratively, it feels like you want to hand them scripts, and read from the top.

If your story arch requires specific classes, then you must hand them out, if it requires specific abilities, then those must be known to the players. If there are lists of specifics that are unknown, or extensive, you have over planed.

It honestly sounds to me that you need to move to a system you are not so heavily invested in.

Jay R
2013-12-09, 09:51 AM
The ideal answer is to pick the adventure path after seeing their characters. Second best is to change the path to fit their characters better.

Consider it a challenge to your skills as a DM and story-teller. Can you create a compelling game that fits this group of characters?

Drakefall
2013-12-09, 09:54 AM
One option, that while not a solution in and of itself could be helpful in tandem with other such considerations, is to edit the APs themselves in certain instances to fit better with the characters that the players have made rather than to try to twink the characters to fit the AP. The effectiveness and appropriateness of this would of course vary from AP to AP, but could help nonetheless.

As an example let's take this Raven Head weapon thingumy for example. Is there a reason why it has to be restricted to a worshiper of Pharasma? Could it not be refluffed to work with a god whom one of your party members is a cleric of? Similarly could not that Briar be tweaked to work for CG characters (If you have any), or entirely refluffed into a LG weapon without changing the mechanics too much?

This could also be applied to plot elements. The major npc ally priest of god X that is supposed to help out the PCs and generate sympathy makes you yearn for a PC who worships god X for thematic reasons, but no PC worships god X? Well if God Y is similar enough that switching out X for him wouldn't change the priest's character too much and you have a PC happily worshiping that god, then why not do just that.

You'll forgive me for having next to know knowledge of Golarion or the Aps you have mentioned, which may render some of the above examples as useful as a rather useless thing, but the the general idea stands I think.

I hope this advice is at least vaguely helpful, and wish to further comment that, for what it's worth, realising that you have a problem in your gming style and seeking advice to curb it speaks well of you as a GM in my mind at least. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Oh dear, it appears I was ninja'd in a succinct fashion.

Lorsa
2013-12-09, 09:59 AM
My short answer would be to stop treating roleplaying as a medium where the players are the audience to a narrative and start treating it as the players being the creators of the narrative.

Do you want a longer answer? You are here seeking help but I still don't really know what/where/how you want it.

Starchild7309
2013-12-09, 10:12 AM
From what I am reading it sounds like you are acting like the main character in Zero Charisma. Please remember its a game, its supposed be fun for everyone. If you take choice away from your players and and force them to play your game only, they lose all interest eventually. Check out the movie Zero Charisma and don't be like that guy.

Sebastrd
2013-12-09, 11:33 AM
The problem is that you're viewing the adventure as a narrative, a story, when it is not. The adventure - even an adveture path - is a blank canvas.

Imagine six people sitting in front of a canvas, each with their own distinct pallet and brush. As the DM, most of what you paint will be the background. You have some ability to guide the creative direction of the piece, in that your players will likely paint a winter scene differently than, say, a jungle scene. But the foreground, the "action" of the painting if you will, is the milieu of the players, and you need to stay out of that as much as possible.

In your situation you've already envisioned the finished product in your head. You've gone so far as to dictate the players' pallets, brush sizes, and creative directions in order to ensure they produce the finished product you have in mind. You're using DMPCs to fill in bits the players have "left out".

While you may end up with a close approximation of what you envisioned, it will leave you and most definitely your players unsatisfied. If you have players with strong creative voices of their own, they will likely chafe at and rebel against your direction. At the same time, you'll be tempted to push and prod the players with weaker creative voices, and you need to resist the temptation. Sometimes adding just a few small details or augmenting the work of others is all the fulfillment they need.

jedipotter
2013-12-09, 11:48 AM
What should I do to curb this tendency so I'm less of a jerk to my players?


Relax. A RPG will almost never be perfect. It is not that type of game. And that is really the whole point of an RPG: it's different.

In fiction, everything works out perfectly. All the ducks are lined up in perfect rows and everything flows from A to B to C. Just think how amazing it was for Luke (son of Vader) to just happen to get the droids at the start of Star Wars and get involved in the whole plot. Seems like pure luck that the only good Force user in the whole galaxy just happened to be flying an X-wing at the Battle of Yavin. But it was not luck, of course, it was writing.

But RPG's are not like fiction. Everything is not perfect, and never will be.

Ask yourself why it matters. So if your group of all dwarves finds a magic long bow of awesomeness, does it matter if none of the characters can use it? Must they use it? Why? Is it ''that much more fun''? Must everything be used?

In a RPG there are no guarantees, unless the DM uses plot armor or other wise changes things. Say the group goes to Dark Swamp to get the Sword of Slaying that only an elf can use. But the elf character is killed by the lizard man king. What now? He was the only elf character. Now the sword is 'useless' to the group....unless they figure something out. But as that can be too hard for most people, the DM will often just 'save' important characters or items. "Oh no that is not 56 damage, it is 6, um the sun got in his eyes''. But in a ''let the dice fall where they may'' type game, anything can happen.....and that is what makes RPG's great.

Advice: Just change things. This is why D&D has a DM and is not all players. Don't change the characters, change the plot, story, items and such. So the Crown of Worms that can only be used by a chaotic character becomes the Crown of Serpents that can only be used by a lawful character.....like the characters in the group. You can even mostly keep the abilities: the worm crown summoned worms with summon swarm, but the serpent crown summons snakes with summon swarm.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-12-09, 11:54 AM
jedipotter hits it the best: learn to accept that no adventure path will be fully explored by any one group. You must detach yourself from the desire to infuse it into the players' narrative, and only then will you ascend to the heights of gaming comprehension...take a deep breath, visualize in your mind...

*starts snoring*

Um. Right. Where was I, again? Something about enlightenment.

The players won't follow the adventure path's storyline or setting, not exactly. Instead, what you're going to get is a creative mishmash of that adventure path and what the players bring to that. It's actually pretty cool. :smallsmile: There's a lot of ways a story could turn out and be entertaining, and that's one of the reasons GMs have players--to remind them that there's a lot of ground to explore.

Craft (Cheese)
2013-12-09, 12:02 PM
I've sort of noticed a bad pattern in my GMing style. I'm a huge control freak when it comes to narrative and characters. I find myself insisting certain character styles and archetypes to players that fit best with whatever Adventure Path I'm running with them (currently Rise of the Runelords, where I sort of cajoled a player away from being a cleric of the deity she really wanted, Arshea, to Desna, which I felt meshed better with RotRL's storyline, and basically dictated to another player their character, as they had no idea what Golarion was like and as long as they played a rogue, they'd be happy).

My advice: Always remember that the players doing something you don't expect is an opportunity, not an obstacle.

Here's a great example of this in action: In my Carrion Crown game, one of the players' backstories was that he was hunting his estranged wife, who had become a necromancer. I cut Auren Vrood out and replaced him with the wife (but didn't tell the players this). Thing is he still loved her and thought they could work their differences out, which made the party's encounter with Vrood *far* more interesting than it would have been otherwise.

Another player was Kendra's long lost little sister, finally reunited at their father's funeral who (unbeknownst to Kendra and the rest of the party) had become a vampire. She wants to get close to her sister again but is deathly afraid of her finding out what she really is. I had to modify Petros and Kendra's backstories quite a bit to make it work, but this turned Kendra into the ball and chain keeping the party in Ravengro for the first chapter of the campaign into one of the most compelling NPCs.


It also compels me to play GMPCs if I feel the party's makeup doesn't include something I deem important to the narrative (like a wizard to be obsessed with Thassilonian stuff in Rise of the Runelords). I know that controlling aspects come from fear, and I believe I've identified mine as a fear of a lack of narrative cohesion. That if I just let people play what they want, the characters won't mesh with the Adventure Path's storyline or setting, and that as a result, certain themes or ideas I feel are essential to the AP's narrative structure simply end up not addressed, or that certain items don't reach their full potential as a result (Raven's Head in Carrion Crown, for example, only gets its best abilities when wielded by someone with the channel energy class feature who worships Pharasma. Many of the items or characters in Kingmaker seem to be geared towards a chaotic party, especially Briar, which as a CN weapon won't work in the hands of, say, a paladin in the group.)

Here's a pro tip: If you want narrative cohesion, the *wrong* way to do it is to paint Sihedron runes over everything and pretend that they're symbolically connected. Yes, this is what RotR is guilty of doing, and this is one of its major weak points as a campaign. It's 6 completely separate adventure modules tied together by sihedron runes and railroading.

As for overly specific items... yeah, those are pretty stupid. I just change them so they can work with any PC.

Scow2
2013-12-09, 12:41 PM
Well, in the DM's defense (especially when it comes to the rogue - He wanted to play a rogue, and you saw something that could be interesting there?), there's nothing wrong with having the DM encourage certain character builds to fit better into an adventure path/planned campaign - but you want to make them suggestions, not dictations.

TheDarkSaint
2013-12-09, 01:21 PM
It might be helpful to think in terms of what your job description really is. As a DM, you describe how the world reacts to what the PC's do. It's a really reactive kind of job and I don't think it can work being pro-active.

I regularly take modules and adjust what is in them to fit my party. I'll insert important NPC's, refluff magic items and alter locations to make it all more relative to what the PC's are experiencing.

I think if you view your job in that light, it will satisfy your "controlling" tendencies as you are able to alter and craft the story around the PC's instead of trying to alter the PC's to fit the story.

Airk
2013-12-09, 01:29 PM
I think we're all thinking about this too hard. There is no "Good" or "bad" in this. The question is simple - are the players having fun? And would they be having more fun if the DM stopped "dabbling"?

There is NOTHING wrong with saying "we're basically going to be playing this story. You're here to make awesome performances and overcome obstacles, but you don't really have agency to change the plot" - so long as everyone nods and says "Okay, sounds like fun!"

On the other hand, if you feel like your players are starting to chafe at this, then yeah, hearken thee unto the advice in this thread.

Or maybe just ditch the adventure path stuff entirely and play a more freeform game.

jedipotter
2013-12-09, 01:36 PM
jedipotter hits it the best: learn to accept that no adventure path will be fully explored by any one group.

Too True. I've run hundreds of adventures. And most of the time, you only use about two thirds of the adventure. Often you just run out of real time. Some times it is just ignored as silly. But most often the adventure just swings the other way. The adventure might have a small half page diversion, like two dwarf clans fighting over a gem mine. The writer clearly intended it for a small couple minute type thing. But then your group embraces this tiny half page and spends the next hour on it (where you as the DM just have to make it all up). As they take so long at the dwarven mine, they never make it to Official Adventure Encounter Six. So a whole five pages of the adventure are simply not used.

SowZ
2013-12-09, 01:41 PM
One, if you have even the slightest inclination towards being overly controlling, put a hard and fast rule right now that you won't have DMPCs ever again. Maybe some people can pull them off, but it likely isn't one of your strengths. Two, during chargen, explain the setting and campaign and important things, (ancient magic and the church of Vecna are going to be really important, guys,) and make sure everyone is in the same room talking to each other during chargen. Resist the urge to shut anything down and only interject to offer suggestions, (make sure they are gentle suggestions,) near the end when people have decided on their concepts. This should help with a cohesive story. 3. Keep in mind that the very best story things are often unintended consequences of unexpected actions. Railroading will likely make your story worse. Your job isn't to tell the story, that is part of your job and part of everyone else's job. Your job is to provide a setting and plot hooks, not the whole plot.

valadil
2013-12-09, 01:41 PM
Somehow I doubt the players on the forum I run this on would respond well to pre-gens.

Or they might surprise you. You always could throw it out there as a one shot. Players are more likely to try something weird when it isn't a long term commitment. If that style works for you and they find they're okay with letting you write their characters, the door is open for longer games with pregens.

ComatosePhoenix
2013-12-09, 03:35 PM
So far it doesn't sound like you nudged people to much. But if your concerned about being overly controlling take a break from your Serious Roleplay scenarios and try something more comedic, or hack/slashery.

Simplifying the story, or outright eradicating it for fetch the McGuffin

set up a scenario that has some interesting elements but you won't get incredibly attached too, then let the players flesh it out with their decisions.

But like I said, make a little side campaign clearly seperate from anything you might currently be writing.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-12-09, 05:18 PM
If you have the time and bandwidth to do it, consider playing a game like Fiasco (http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/) or Kingdom (http://www.lamemage.com/kingdom/). They redistribute the traditional load of the GM across multiple players, and that can help you learn to ease up on the flow of the story.

Brookshw
2013-12-09, 05:58 PM
If you have the time and bandwidth to do it, consider playing a game like Fiasco (http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/) or Kingdom (http://www.lamemage.com/kingdom/). They redistribute the traditional load of the GM across multiple players, and that can help you learn to ease up on the flow of the story.

I'm not familiar with the games you've referenced but it did bring to mind a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318311) I saw recently. It sounded pretty good to me, I might just try to incorporate such a world building strategy in some of my upcoming games.

Faily
2013-12-09, 06:14 PM
There is a middle-ground.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with telling players ahead of time what sort of campaign you will be running, what you (as the GM) think would be needed or fitting for the adventure. Or out-right restrictions. When making our characters for the Savage Tide-campaign, our GM *strongly* adviced us not to make Lawful Good characters due to a few events in the story that would one way or another result in an alignment change.

The GM knows the campaign and the setting, and it's his job as a GM to "properly advertise the game", so to speak.

The other spectrum is that players should still feel able to make a character they want to play without feeling like they have to follow a recipe from the GM. It's perfectly OK to change certain parts of an adventure to better fit the group (like if there's a magic item geared towards a Cleric of God X, but PC is a Cleric of God Y... easy swap). Craft (Cheese)'s post telling how she changed certain NPCs to fit into the PCs background is a great example of customizing a published campaign to fit your group.


Also, just gonna say that GMPCs should most of the time go DIAF. :smalltongue:

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-12-09, 06:35 PM
The problem is that you're viewing the adventure as a narrative, a story, when it is not. The adventure - even an adveture path - is a blank canvas.
But...but that's why I play these games to begin with! To craft a compelling narrative!

Imagine six people sitting in front of a canvas, each with their own distinct pallet and brush. As the DM, most of what you paint will be the background. You have some ability to guide the creative direction of the piece, in that your players will likely paint a winter scene differently than, say, a jungle scene. But the foreground, the "action" of the painting if you will, is the milieu of the players, and you need to stay out of that as much as possible.

In your situation you've already envisioned the finished product in your head. You've gone so far as to dictate the players' pallets, brush sizes, and creative directions in order to ensure they produce the finished product you have in mind. You're using DMPCs to fill in bits the players have "left out".
Well, part of it is that what I really want to do is play, but nobody else WANTS to GM, or if they do, they don't want to play the stories I want to play in. I want to play a Knight of Ozem in Carrion Crown. I want to play a Shoanti Paladin in Curse of the Crimson Throne. I want to play a Thassilon-obsessed wizard in Rise of the Runelords. But no one else in the community has the books. No one else in the forum has the same interest in the Pathfinder setting as I do. Most of the games just end up being free-form extrapolations from established systems anyway because the combat drags and players get frustrated with things not progressing. And most of the stuff they want to run invariably bores me anyway (most of them involve arenas in the center of the multiverse where characters of epic level fight each other for some vague divine prize, and then various lurid scenes of intimacy when they're not competing with no real plot to follow).

While you may end up with a close approximation of what you envisioned, it will leave you and most definitely your players unsatisfied. If you have players with strong creative voices of their own, they will likely chafe at and rebel against your direction. At the same time, you'll be tempted to push and prod the players with weaker creative voices, and you need to resist the temptation. Sometimes adding just a few small details or augmenting the work of others is all the fulfillment they need.
This is happening in my game right now! There are some players who are going exactly where I wished they hadn't gone (straight to Sandpoint's brothel, specifically), but I let them do that, despite how annoying I felt it was. And then there are other players who are basically saying "Direct me someplace, please? I know next to nothing about the Pathfinder Setting and I'm just waiting for the first fight to start."

Before you ask "If what you want to do is play, why not join an RP here or some other place?" I don't want to abandon the forum I'm a moderator for, people I've roleplayed with over the web for almost seven years now, but which is drifting apart due to posters having RL take precedence, internal drama amongst members driving others away and just the fact that we're less a roleplaying community and more a group looking for a place to continue a roleplay we started on the Wizards of the Coast mature board years ago but got kicked from there due to them considering the roleplay there spam. A roleplay that barely even updates anymore as most of the players don't even post anymore, or even remember what their characters were doing the last time they did so. Plus, I feel so nervous about RPing on forums like these. There's a lot of people, and recruitment feels more like an audition than an invitation. At least with the forum I'm on, I'm pretty much guaranteed a spot in anything that goes on there. Here, it's a lot less certain that what I want to play will be here, that there'll be a quality GM, and that I'll be able to play what I want because in order to maximize my chances of getting in I have to focus on a niche that isn't being focused on by the other posters rather than what I WANT to play, which EVERYONE is posting characters similar too. And because a lot of the games I've joined here have collapsed. I'm more than a little bitter about that. :smallsigh:

Honest Tiefling
2013-12-09, 06:44 PM
Maybe you need a new challenge. Perhaps you should think of ways to change these APs to suit the characters you are presented with? Certain weapons made for class/race/whatever combos? Change that up, so someone in the party could use it.

Certain themes in the narrative not appearing? Look at your characters. See what conflicts you can stir up with them and change the themes to suit the party. View the challenge as not as presenting the AP as intended, but to make the AP the starting point of a narrative that weaves these different characters together.

Heck, I think if a DM outright said 'I would like to do a gothic horror story focusing on X religion in Y region of Z setting', I'd honestly be okay with that. There's still some flexibility in there, but the DM does get a say in what happens, after all.

If all else fails, forbid yourself from making suggestions or DMPCs unless the party asks for it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-12-09, 06:53 PM
So far it doesn't sound like you nudged people to much. But if your concerned about being overly controlling take a break from your Serious Roleplay scenarios and try something more comedic, or hack/slashery.

Simplifying the story, or outright eradicating it for fetch the McGuffin

set up a scenario that has some interesting elements but you won't get incredibly attached too, then let the players flesh it out with their decisions.

But like I said, make a little side campaign clearly seperate from anything you might currently be writing.


Or maybe just ditch the adventure path stuff entirely and play a more freeform game.
That's just it! All I've GOT on that forum is freeform games in generic settings and I'm freakin' sick of them! I want to play in the Pathfinder setting. I want to experience the brilliant stories the great minds at Paizo came up with! But nobody else is interested enough or knowledgeable enough in it to appreciate it on the same level as I do. And on the one AP game I'm playing in here on the forum, the GM made it evident from the get-go that he was gutting the AP and changing it on a very fundamental level, which means I'm flying blind and can't ensure my character fits with the narrative themes I've read about in the AP books.

Kane0
2013-12-09, 08:05 PM
The best thing might be to take a step back. Try something else, have a look around, come back later if you like.

It sounds like what you want is different from what the people you are with want. A compromise on either side might not turn out well.

Edit: You seem very focused on narrative. Not a bad thing, but make sure you realize that your narrative may never come close to someone else's. And that's fine, they can coexist. Just ensure that the narrative is flexible enough to still be a game rather than a story.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-12-09, 08:18 PM
What I'd like is to PLAY in a narrative rather than create it. It's a lot less stressful. But no one ever wants to play the stuff I wanna play, and when they DO, all the spots get snapped up before I'm finished working on the character sheet! And if by some miracle I do manage to get in, the game collapses after a few months anyway!

tensai_oni
2013-12-09, 08:28 PM
Zousha, calm down. If you want to play rather than be the DM, look around for games. On this forum or others - I had some really good experience with that. Also some bad experience but don't let joining a game and then discovering it's crap dissuade you. Just move on and hope for better the next time.

Now on more on topic advice.

I think you're overstating how well-made official modules are. From my experience, a semi-experienced game master can almost always create something at least as good as an official adventure. Still, if you want to play modules, your choice - but remember they are here to serve the players, not the other way around.

So if a detail is incompatible with the party, change it. Or just let it be and don't care that players aren't interested in it or don't find it useful. Players will NEVER do exactly what you want, and the narrative will NEVER play out exactly the way you want it to. That is, unless you railroad things so heavily, you might as well write your own player-less story instead.

Someone else said in the thread and I'm signing myself under it - players acting in ways you didn't predict is not a problem. It's an opportunity. It creates a more interesting story.

Raine_Sage
2013-12-09, 08:33 PM
Well then you seem to be at an impass with yourself.

You feel like you have to constantly control the narrative in order to play the story you want to play because none of the players want to play that story.

And you feel this way because no one wants to DM this story but you and you feel obligated to your current group regardless of how different your tastes might be?

So you're a DM who doesn't want to DM but feels trapped in the role because of bad luck with past games. Which leads to railroading which leads to unhappyness all around. Unfortunately that just kind of limits options.

First option is to just mess with the module a little when players go "off script" which is what most DMs do. However this defeats the purpose for you because you picked the module because you liked that specific story.

Second option is to just make pregened characters and be up front with the players about your itch which you stated would probably not go over well with the group.

Third option would be to keep going as you're going. You didn't mention if your players seem to be having fun with the current status qua but since you're asking for advice here I'm guessing that's probably a no.

Fourth option is to just close up shop. Let them finish out the module however they see fit. Go "It's been fun but I'm probably not going to DM again in the foreseeable future" and then just be honest if they ask why. Because clearly what you're doing right now isn't fun for you and if it's not fun for you then there's really no point in doing it.

Brookshw
2013-12-09, 09:23 PM
Strongly narrative games can be fun. I'd play a game with you if you wanted to do a heavy to story driven piece. They can be fun. Roll your dmpc. Frankly I get this, I'll never be able to tell the stories I want to tell. Heck, arrange a pbp and I'll run one, I'll never be able to do all the games I want with just one group.

But in terms of what you're saying, I get the impression that you're writing the end. That's the problem maybe. That has to be open. If I know how the story finishes, that's not interesting. If I know how the story begins and the players write the ending, now that's always going to amaze me.

Scow2
2013-12-10, 02:07 AM
My advice, if you want more coherent, fleshed-out characters, is to make a number of pre-made characters, and present them to players as 'prompts', leaving them up to change details to fit themselves better.

Airk
2013-12-10, 10:33 AM
But in terms of what you're saying, I get the impression that you're writing the end. That's the problem maybe. That has to be open. If I know how the story finishes, that's not interesting. If I know how the story begins and the players write the ending, now that's always going to amaze me.

No, that's not what I'm getting. Well, maybe he is or isn't doing that, but that's not the actual problem here.

I'm getting that there is a fundamental incompatibility between the type of game his players want (total sandbox full of 'dumb stuff') and the type of game he wants to be in.

Short version for you Zousha:

Change what you want, or change groups. There is no way to compromise here. They don't want to play what you want to play. You are saying "C'mon, guys, let's have a poker night!" and they only want to play Go Fish. There is no way to play a game that is "sort of Poker and sort of Go Fish."

tensai_oni
2013-12-10, 12:47 PM
Change what you want, or change groups. There is no way to compromise here. They don't want to play what you want to play. You are saying "C'mon, guys, let's have a poker night!" and they only want to play Go Fish. There is no way to play a game that is "sort of Poker and sort of Go Fish."

The former.

Changing groups will do nothing because I have yet to see a group that would be happy with being railroaded heavily to the extent Zousha showed in this thread.

Airk
2013-12-10, 01:44 PM
The former.

Changing groups will do nothing because I have yet to see a group that would be happy with being railroaded heavily to the extent Zousha showed in this thread.

Perhaps not, but it seems to me that the reason half the 'railroading' is happening is because the PCs aren't interested in exploring the setting. Provided with a group that is interested in hitting the 'high points' of these adventure paths, I expect the need to tell them "No no, go over here!" will go down a LOT.

Scow2
2013-12-10, 01:44 PM
The DM does have the authority to say whether any given character concept fits within a game or not. "Play a character that meets X, Y, and Z specifications and is likely to follow up on A, B, and C, plot threads when presented under his own power" is not Railroading.


There are two ways to handle the situation - Either have the Players create the high concept and general abilities of their characters, then work with them to change it and fit it into the campaign you want to run: "I want to play a sneaky rogue" becomes "You are now Devon of Highfort a street-scoundrel from Edensburg who lost his father in a planeshift crash and struggled to make ends meet working for the local beholder-driven Organized Crime Ring... and on your latest assignment, you've made friends X, Y, and Z, enemies P,Q, and R." and "I'm making a Cleric of (Goddess Y) with Background of Details A, B, and C" can be negotiated with "Would you mind playing Cleric of "God X" with background details of D and E, but B is still good to keep?" with negotiation from there, and communication on both ends to try and equally reciprocate changing character and campaign premises.

The other option is to make a bunch of pre-made characters that fit the campaign premise perfectly, then allow players to select one they like: "Ooh, I want to play a rogue!" has that player selecting Pre-genned Devon of Highfort, and maybe negotiating to tweak the build a bit. The other person looks at the Cleric of Deity Y and background details of B, D, and E, and then negotiates to modify the character to be of Deity X with background details of A, B, and C, with the campaign shifting to accommodate those changes in a reciprocal manner.

It's not fair to force a DM to modify an adventure/campaign premise to fit the players without having the player be expected to reciprocate and modify their character premise to fit the campaign.

BWR
2013-12-10, 01:45 PM
But nobody else is interested enough or knowledgeable enough in it to appreciate it on the same level as I do.

Yeah, I think this might be more of a problem. Don't worry about the players not knowing as much about the setting as you. As the DM it is your job to introduce the setting and the characters. Don't worry about them getting all the details at once, just gradually feed them more. Give them tidbits of history and culture during play, don't expect them to know everything at the start of the game.
This is how I've introduced Mystara to three of my players. They started out knowing just about nothing about the setting and now quite enjoy it. Make the locations vivid and drop some information that the PCs may not necessarily know just to give them a proper feel for it



And on the one AP game I'm playing in here on the forum, the GM made it evident from the get-go that he was gutting the AP and changing it on a very fundamental level, which means I'm flying blind and can't ensure my character fits with the narrative themes I've read about in the AP books

Generally it is best to not know what will happen in the adventure. If you know what is going to happen you are removing a lot of the fun. This is certainly more of a control freak problem than your first post. Trust that your DM would tell you if the character you submitted was not a good fit for his story. Other than that, play it your way and don't worry.
It's the DM's job to tell the players what sort of characters are and are not appopriate for the game she's running.

Whlie it's easy for outsiders to tell you to just take a deep breath and calm down, I think that's what you need. If necessary, just tell everyone you are taking a short break for whatever reason, and just calm down and get to the point where gaming and DMing sounds like fun rather than something to get worked up over.

Good luck.

veti
2013-12-10, 03:54 PM
But...but that's why I play these games to begin with! To craft a compelling narrative!

If you want to write a book, write a book. An RPG campaign is a difficult place to "craft a compelling narrative".

Or if you want some middle ground, write a mod for Neverwinter Nights or Skyrim or something. You can get away with a lot more railroading on a computer platform.


Before you ask "If what you want to do is play, why not join an RP here or some other place?" I don't want to abandon the forum I'm a moderator for, people I've roleplayed with over the web for almost seven years now, but which is drifting apart due to posters having RL take precedence, internal drama amongst members driving others away and just the fact that we're less a roleplaying community and more a group looking for a place to continue a roleplay we started on the Wizards of the Coast mature board years ago but got kicked from there due to them considering the roleplay there spam.

I'm sorry, but all things come to an end. It sounds - from your own account, which suggests to me that you privately believe this yourself - as if the forum is dying anyway. Communities, particularly online, where life is so fluid and commitment so variable, do drift apart.

It's possible you could do something to change the dynamic of the forum. Encouraging more/less private mail, changing time limits on responses, more/less heavy-handed moderation - there are some tools available to you. But in the end - there will be an "end", and this could be it. So be prepared for that too. If it is, then try to keep in touch with people, try to find a new home with new mechanics that will make for a different dynamic, but basically - count yourself lucky if, two or three years down the line, you're still in regular touch with more than two or three of your current players.

Scow2
2013-12-10, 04:22 PM
If you want to write a book, write a book. An RPG campaign is a difficult place to "craft a compelling narrative".

Or if you want some middle ground, write a mod for Neverwinter Nights or Skyrim or something. You can get away with a lot more railroading on a computer platform.Actually, a lot of RPGs are great at creating compelling narratives (FATE and Ironclaw come to mind). It merely happens that D&D's mechanics and attitude of player entitlement happen to detract from that.

The way to craft a compelling narrative, though, is to have open communication and collaboration between Players and DMs - If the DM doesn't relinquish any control of the campaign, you get leading pre-genned characters by the nose everywhere and railroading. If the players don't relinquish control of their characters, you get a bored DM and haphazard campaign that feels pointless and dies quickly.

If you're going to expect a DM to change his campaign to fit your characters, you have to be open to the idea of changing your characters to fit the DM's campaign.

He is the Dungeon Master, not Dungeon Slave.

MonochromeTiger
2013-12-10, 04:33 PM
Actually, a lot of RPGs are great at creating compelling narratives (FATE and Ironclaw come to mind). It merely happens that D&D's mechanics and attitude of player entitlement happen to detract from that.

The way to craft a compelling narrative, though, is to have open communication and collaboration between Players and DMs - If the DM doesn't relinquish any control of the campaign, you get leading pre-genned characters by the nose everywhere and railroading. If the players don't relinquish control of their characters, you get a bored DM and haphazard campaign that feels pointless and dies quickly.

If you're going to expect a DM to change his campaign to fit your characters, you have to be open to the idea of changing your characters to fit the DM's campaign.

He is the Dungeon Master, not Dungeon Slave.

there is a fairly large amount of difference between dictating what the players should be able to do (or in this case actively changing their characters and making DMPCs just to be CERTAIN they do everything exactly as the book says) and having expectations for the group to listen and be listened to in turn.

now I understand DMs having issues with a group that just won't listen or ignores the story they set up but it's asking a lot to have your players go through every bit of scripted event in a campaign without doing their own stuff too. part of why open story campaigns are popular is because a DM is capable of putting in some interesting plot hooks and stories and the players still get freedom to shape the story....the flaw of adventure paths is that the only way you could really change the story in any big way is to spontaneously declare yourself evil and kill all the friendly NPCs in town then go off to join the enemies.

Sebastrd
2013-12-10, 10:16 PM
Have you sniffed around on the Paizo forums? While my opinions tend to be diametrically opposed to virtually everyone else's over there, they do have a very strong sense of community and it sounds like you'd fit right in.

It sounds like you're having a hard time letting go of a community where the glory days are long past and it's just dying a slow death. People hate change and would rather tough it out with the devil they know rather than taking a chance on the new and unknown. My personal experience is that a new environment is never as bad as I fear, and I'm often pleasantly surprised. And I have a lot of experience. Being in the military I move around, both offices and communities, a lot.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-12-11, 12:56 AM
If you want to write a book, write a book. An RPG campaign is a difficult place to "craft a compelling narrative".
I've TRIED writing a book. I competed in NaNoWriMo this year. I failed to get anywhere near the 50,000 word count requirement and my writing sucked anyway. :smallsigh:

Have you sniffed around on the Paizo forums? While my opinions tend to be diametrically opposed to virtually everyone else's over there, they do have a very strong sense of community and it sounds like you'd fit right in.

It sounds like you're having a hard time letting go of a community where the glory days are long past and it's just dying a slow death. People hate change and would rather tough it out with the devil they know rather than taking a chance on the new and unknown. My personal experience is that a new environment is never as bad as I fear, and I'm often pleasantly surprised. And I have a lot of experience. Being in the military I move around, both offices and communities, a lot.
I'm on the Paizo forums already. The thing that frustrates me there (and here, honestly) is that getting into games there feels like a competition, and I simply feel that I stand little chance as a relative newcomer against people who've already established their roleplaying chops there. And that they'll be more judgmental of me, which scares me beyond belief.

I'm sorry, but all things come to an end. It sounds - from your own account, which suggests to me that you privately believe this yourself - as if the forum is dying anyway. Communities, particularly online, where life is so fluid and commitment so variable, do drift apart.

It's possible you could do something to change the dynamic of the forum. Encouraging more/less private mail, changing time limits on responses, more/less heavy-handed moderation - there are some tools available to you. But in the end - there will be an "end", and this could be it. So be prepared for that too. If it is, then try to keep in touch with people, try to find a new home with new mechanics that will make for a different dynamic, but basically - count yourself lucky if, two or three years down the line, you're still in regular touch with more than two or three of your current players.
Part of it is that so many of the people that used to be the most regular posters, apparently never have time for it anymore. I'm working three different jobs and I still manage to make time for that forum, this one, and Paizo too, juggling probably 20 different threads at a time!

Raine_Sage
2013-12-11, 01:24 AM
Part of it is that so many of the people that used to be the most regular posters, apparently never have time for it anymore. I'm working three different jobs and I still manage to make time for that forum, this one, and Paizo too, juggling probably 20 different threads at a time!

Well that's god for you but other people are not you and it's not really fair to go "Well I can do it why can't they?" since everyone has different limits on how much is too much for them. That said you sound pretty stressed maybe dropping some of those threads would help. It sounds like you're approaching burnout levels of responsibility.

I want to ask have you tried free form roleplay? That is, no systems no dice just players making characters and collaborating on an interactive story? Finding a good forum can be a little tricky but it sounds more like what you want out of a narrative adventure. No posturing just character interactions in an awesome setting.

Knaight
2013-12-11, 01:33 AM
Part of it is that so many of the people that used to be the most regular posters, apparently never have time for it anymore. I'm working three different jobs and I still manage to make time for that forum, this one, and Paizo too, juggling probably 20 different threads at a time!

The forum likely isn't nearly as important to them as it is to you. Expecting people for whom the forum isn't a priority to make time for it is nonsensical.

Thrudd
2013-12-11, 03:27 AM
But...but that's why I play these games to begin with! To craft a compelling narrative!

Well, part of it is that what I really want to do is play, but nobody else WANTS to GM, or if they do, they don't want to play the stories I want to play in. I want to play a Knight of Ozem in Carrion Crown. I want to play a Shoanti Paladin in Curse of the Crimson Throne. I want to play a Thassilon-obsessed wizard in Rise of the Runelords. But no one else in the community has the books. No one else in the forum has the same interest in the Pathfinder setting as I do. Most of the games just end up being free-form extrapolations from established systems anyway because the combat drags and players get frustrated with things not progressing. And most of the stuff they want to run invariably bores me anyway (most of them involve arenas in the center of the multiverse where characters of epic level fight each other for some vague divine prize, and then various lurid scenes of intimacy when they're not competing with no real plot to follow).

This is happening in my game right now! There are some players who are going exactly where I wished they hadn't gone (straight to Sandpoint's brothel, specifically), but I let them do that, despite how annoying I felt it was. And then there are other players who are basically saying "Direct me someplace, please? I know next to nothing about the Pathfinder Setting and I'm just waiting for the first fight to start."

Before you ask "If what you want to do is play, why not join an RP here or some other place?" I don't want to abandon the forum I'm a moderator for, people I've roleplayed with over the web for almost seven years now, but which is drifting apart due to posters having RL take precedence, internal drama amongst members driving others away and just the fact that we're less a roleplaying community and more a group looking for a place to continue a roleplay we started on the Wizards of the Coast mature board years ago but got kicked from there due to them considering the roleplay there spam. A roleplay that barely even updates anymore as most of the players don't even post anymore, or even remember what their characters were doing the last time they did so. Plus, I feel so nervous about RPing on forums like these. There's a lot of people, and recruitment feels more like an audition than an invitation. At least with the forum I'm on, I'm pretty much guaranteed a spot in anything that goes on there. Here, it's a lot less certain that what I want to play will be here, that there'll be a quality GM, and that I'll be able to play what I want because in order to maximize my chances of getting in I have to focus on a niche that isn't being focused on by the other posters rather than what I WANT to play, which EVERYONE is posting characters similar too. And because a lot of the games I've joined here have collapsed. I'm more than a little bitter about that. :smallsigh:

Since you are here asking for advice: You can't control what other people want or do, on any level. In game, or out. To try is only to create stress for yourself. The only thing you can control is yourself. If DMing or Roleplaying in general is really frustrating for you, it may be healthy to let go of it for a while. Take a break and wait for something that you will enjoy to become available.
If you have no interest in roleplaying or running anything other than Pathfinder adventure paths, then why keep trying to force things? Just bow out until you find some players or a DM who is doing what you enjoy. If you see one come up on the forum, apply for it. These are play-by-post roleplaying games, not auditions for a major motion picture. There is really nothing to be nervous or insecure about, people don't even have to know your real name or see your face.
For your own health and sanity, learn to let go and have fun. D&D, at its core, is a wacky game. If you insist on DMing, you need to learn to accept and embrace this about it. Run your adventure, but expect that at least one player is not going to take it seriously, certainly not as seriously as you do. Expect that they will go off the rails and not do what they are expected to do.
The problem with most adventures for 3e and later is that they are generally too plot driven. This isn't a problem with your players or your DMing ability. It is a conflict between the idea of a narrative adventure and D&D itself. No DM can succeed in this without complete complicity from the players in having appropriate characters and agreeing to play along with the story. D&D is made for the sandbox. The narrative reveals itself over the course of many sessions of play, out of the choices of the players as much as from the DM and the setting. With some dramatic scenes and elements of overarching plot revealed gradually between much pointless wandering, haggling with shopkeepers, getting into tavern fights, sidetrack quests and joking, a narrative may appear over time. When you write the book afterwards all those silly parts get left out, you add some dramatic embellishments, and it sounds like high fantasy rather than the Monty Python skit it seemed like at the time it was actually played.
In other words, no such adventure can really work as written unless your players are into acting out scripted parts. It may as well be a play with a "choose-your-own" ending.
In your ad for the game you want to run, you should say this up front. List the character options they have, the "dramatis personae" if you will. If not completely statted up, at least have the background and motivations for each of the characters so that people unfamiliar with the setting will be able to fulfill their role successfully. Mention that this is a scripted adventure where you are looking for serious roleplay appropriate to the characters provided. The ultimate outcome will be determined by the tactical choices of the players within each scene and the fall of the dice, but the scenes themselves are fully scripted and predetermined. Maybe there are some people who would like to play like that, and will be interested in the character concepts you present to them. You'll never know if you don't put it out there.

Gavran
2013-12-11, 03:39 AM
I'm on the Paizo forums already. The thing that frustrates me there (and here, honestly) is that getting into games there feels like a competition, and I simply feel that I stand little chance as a relative newcomer against people who've already established their roleplaying chops there. And that they'll be more judgmental of me, which scares me beyond belief.

I play 4E, and it's theoretically possible that the crowds are different, but despite only coming to PBP recently, and Pen and Paper only about a month before that, I've never been singled out at all negatively for being new. There are certainly more people who want to play than who want to DM, but I've seen more DMs opt to try to include everyone than not. The PBP death on the other hand, that's just a thing that happens. It sucks but all you can do is keep trying.

CombatOwl
2013-12-11, 06:33 AM
I've sort of noticed a bad pattern in my GMing style. I'm a huge control freak when it comes to narrative and characters. I find myself insisting certain character styles and archetypes to players that fit best with whatever Adventure Path I'm running with them (currently Rise of the Runelords, where I sort of cajoled a player away from being a cleric of the deity she really wanted, Arshea, to Desna, which I felt meshed better with RotRL's storyline, and basically dictated to another player their character, as they had no idea what Golarion was like and as long as they played a rogue, they'd be happy). It also compels me to play GMPCs if I feel the party's makeup doesn't include something I deem important to the narrative (like a wizard to be obsessed with Thassilonian stuff in Rise of the Runelords). I know that controlling aspects come from fear, and I believe I've identified mine as a fear of a lack of narrative cohesion. That if I just let people play what they want, the characters won't mesh with the Adventure Path's storyline or setting, and that as a result, certain themes or ideas I feel are essential to the AP's narrative structure simply end up not addressed, or that certain items don't reach their full potential as a result (Raven's Head in Carrion Crown, for example, only gets its best abilities when wielded by someone with the channel energy class feature who worships Pharasma. Many of the items or characters in Kingmaker seem to be geared towards a chaotic party, especially Briar, which as a CN weapon won't work in the hands of, say, a paladin in the group.)

What should I do to curb this tendency so I'm less of a jerk to my players?

At the start of the game--when people are building characters--provide them with a written list of themes that will come into play in the upcoming story. In the same list, provide some example archetypes that you think will be important--and possibly even a mild hint as to why you think they'll be needed.

If the party chooses not to build according to that advice, well, that's their business. Not every adventure needs to be successful.

ReaderAt2046
2013-12-11, 07:06 AM
Generally it is best to not know what will happen in the adventure. If you know what is going to happen you are removing a lot of the fun. This is certainly more of a control freak problem than your first post. Trust that your DM would tell you if the character you submitted was not a good fit for his story. Other than that, play it your way and don't worry.


I don't think he's worried about the plot being changed, I think his problem is that the DM is rewriting the backstory, which means he can't make a character to fit that world.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-12-12, 01:12 AM
Well that's god for you but other people are not you and it's not really fair to go "Well I can do it why can't they?" since everyone has different limits on how much is too much for them. That said you sound pretty stressed maybe dropping some of those threads would help. It sounds like you're approaching burnout levels of responsibility.
Dropping threads is something that makes me upset too. I feel like I'm abandoning them, and I'm frustrated at the times I've tried to play an AP here that I really, REALLY wanted to play, but that fell flat. I really want to play Carrion Crown, for example, and for a while there was a dedicated group for it that I was part of. But then the GM disappeared. One of the players took over from him, and kept it going for a while, but it still failed.

I want to ask have you tried free form roleplay? That is, no systems no dice just players making characters and collaborating on an interactive story? Finding a good forum can be a little tricky but it sounds more like what you want out of a narrative adventure. No posturing just character interactions in an awesome setting.
That's basically the only roleplay that HAPPENS on the forum anymore. Sure there may be character sheets to establish a baseline for the character's abilities, but after that it's almost always free-form. While I'm not opposed to free-form, I just feel like it doesn't lend itself to the playing of Pathfinder Adventure Paths, which is what I want to do right now. Plus, a lot of the games I've attempted to play with rules and dice there degenerate into free-form anyway when the other players become frustrated at the slow pace of combat.

SowZ
2013-12-12, 01:23 AM
Dropping threads is something that makes me upset too. I feel like I'm abandoning them, and I'm frustrated at the times I've tried to play an AP here that I really, REALLY wanted to play, but that fell flat. I really want to play Carrion Crown, for example, and for a while there was a dedicated group for it that I was part of. But then the GM disappeared. One of the players took over from him, and kept it going for a while, but it still failed.

That's basically the only roleplay that HAPPENS on the forum anymore. Sure there may be character sheets to establish a baseline for the character's abilities, but after that it's almost always free-form. While I'm not opposed to free-form, I just feel like it doesn't lend itself to the playing of Pathfinder Adventure Paths, which is what I want to do right now. Plus, a lot of the games I've attempted to play with rules and dice there degenerate into free-form anyway when the other players become frustrated at the slow pace of combat.

In my experience, die rolling forum rp only really works well when players have set upon times to get together for combat. Ideally in a live chat room. The rest is fine PbP, but combat should be done at set times.

BWR
2013-12-12, 05:54 AM
I don't think he's worried about the plot being changed, I think his problem is that the DM is rewriting the backstory, which means he can't make a character to fit that world.

Which is why I said, in the bit you quoted:
Trust that your DM would tell you if the character you submitted was not a good fit for his story.

:smallwink:

Lorsa
2013-12-12, 08:08 AM
I have been reading your replies and I have a few thoughts.

The first one is obvious; if you know what you want you need to find other people who want the same thing. It's not easy, in fact it is extremely hard, but if you aren't willing to compromise that's what you need to do.

My second thought is a bit longer and perhaps not something you want to hear. I think you need to re-evaluate your idea of roleplaying.

Roleplaying as a medium is not at its best when you follow heavily scripted, pre-written paths. That works well in books, movies and to a lesser extent video games. The advantage you have in roleplaying is the possibility to influence the world and the story to an extent that isn't possible in other mediums. By removing that advantage I feel you are not only severely restricting the other players but also limiting your own fun.

To me, the very strength of roleplaying lies in the choices the players can make. By having the ability to influence the story, you feel its impact much more personally and care about it on a completely different level than what is possible when reading a book. If I was just a spectator in a play that occasionally got to roll a few dice then my experience would be very unsatisfying.

There also seem to be some disconnect between what you say. First, you say that you play so that you can create a compelling narrative. What about the other players? Should they not have a say in which narrative is created? Why do you want to create it yourself? Secondly, you say that you want to experience what the great minds at Paizo have created. That means not even you have any say in the matter. Who's narrative do you really want, yours or Paizo's?

If you have already read through all the Adventure Paths, why do you need to play them? Don't you already know what will happen and how they will end? If I already know the outcome of a roleplaying campaign I am not sure what the point would be in me playing it. I could simply read about it like a book.

I am not saying these things in order to tell you that you are wrong. The way you want to experience roleplaying is entirely up to you, and if it brings you fun that is all that matters. I am trying to explain why it will be difficult for you to find like-minded individuals.

Also, there is a world of difference between following a scripted adventure path and going through random fights in an arena. There is a place in the middle where you the player gets to have an impact on the story that is created and where your choices have a meaningful outcome and where all the participants are working together to create a narrative that no one knows how it will be until it is finished.

Amphetryon
2013-12-12, 01:02 PM
From reading this thread, and other posts of yours, Zousha, I get the impression that your ideal would be a game that adheres strictly to the canon of the setting, while creating a compelling narrative based on Characters with heavily scripted backstories and goals that you've personally vetted. Please indicate if this in not an accurate portrayal of your preferences.

In my opinion and experience, the above parameters are extremely difficult to fulfill - if not impossible - without some amount of conflict arising within those goals. It is extremely difficult to stick strictly to canon while simultaneously crafting a new narrative, because most narratives will explore previously uncharted territory to some extent. It is even more difficult to RP Characters as unique individuals within the above parameters, both because they would need to stick to canon and because any actions they took that didn't fit into both the individual Player's idea for the Character and your own notion of how that Character should behave appears, by my reading, to cause you (or the other Player) stress.

TL;DR: It seems like you might want to think about what you want out of an RPG that differs from what you might get out of reading a book or playing a video game. They are different mediums, and are best approached differently.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-12-14, 12:44 AM
From reading this thread, and other posts of yours, Zousha, I get the impression that your ideal would be a game that adheres strictly to the canon of the setting, while creating a compelling narrative based on Characters with heavily scripted backstories and goals that you've personally vetted. Please indicate if this in not an accurate portrayal of your preferences.

In my opinion and experience, the above parameters are extremely difficult to fulfill - if not impossible - without some amount of conflict arising within those goals. It is extremely difficult to stick strictly to canon while simultaneously crafting a new narrative, because most narratives will explore previously uncharted territory to some extent. It is even more difficult to RP Characters as unique individuals within the above parameters, both because they would need to stick to canon and because any actions they took that didn't fit into both the individual Player's idea for the Character and your own notion of how that Character should behave appears, by my reading, to cause you (or the other Player) stress.

TL;DR: It seems like you might want to think about what you want out of an RPG that differs from what you might get out of reading a book or playing a video game. They are different mediums, and are best approached differently.
Sort of. I didn't require the PCs backstories to be too detailed, only that they somehow incorporated one of the Player Traits from the Anniversary Guide and that they were from Varisia, rather than being foreigners (one person wanted to be from Rahadoum because he wanted to use the atheist feats because he thought they were cool, and he's always advocating that I include psionics, something I've repeatedly said I will NOT do until Paizo publishes material that explains when, where and how it fits into the setting). Goals and things like that were basically going to come down the line as the AP progressed.

The arguments mostly happen when players want to include either third-party materials or they want to play something that would require a lot of mental gymnastics to justify, like a kitsune in a campaign based on Renaissance Venice. I don't trust anything that isn't published in the official game materials because I suck at math and don't know how balanced it is, and I don't know how to justify it canon-wise. Part of crafting a cohesive narrative is for the elements to harmonize. If something comes clean out of left-field like that, the versimilitude is lost, and for me, the immersion is broken.

Scow2
2013-12-14, 01:59 AM
The arguments mostly happen when players want to include either third-party materials or they want to play something that would require a lot of mental gymnastics to justify, like a kitsune in a campaign based on Renaissance Venice. I don't trust anything that isn't published in the official game materials because I suck at math and don't know how balanced it is, and I don't know how to justify it canon-wise. Part of crafting a cohesive narrative is for the elements to harmonize. If something comes clean out of left-field like that, the versimilitude is lost, and for me, the immersion is broken.Put the onus on justifying a character concept in the setting on the player, and meet them 1/4th of the way: They have to bring the concept the other 3/4ths.

You're free to say no to 3rd-party material or subsystems you're not familiar with.

Jay R
2013-12-14, 11:47 AM
If you think about what you want to do most, you will usually be frustrated. There's only one thing you want most, and you usually can't get exactly that.

Instead, try to decide if the game in front of you could be fun. There are lots of games that could be fun.

Amphetryon
2013-12-14, 11:52 AM
If you think about what you want to do most, you will usually be frustrated. There's only one thing you want most, and you usually can't get exactly that.

Instead, try to decide if the game in front of you could be fun. There are lots of games that could be fun.

Issues arise when the thought "games could be fun" is followed by "if" or, worse, "if only." It seems to me that there's a problem with managing expectations.

Tim Proctor
2013-12-14, 12:12 PM
I think the best way for me personally is the 'yes, but' modification. I tell people the setting let them come up with backgrounds and characters, read them and add on or slightly alter to fit the setting's goals.

The players that I have IRL are super cool and allow all sorts of exchanges, and add things on all the time cause they think they're cool. I think having side episodes of Fiasco or other free-roleplay games (Durance, Kogumatsu) really helps players loosen up on the 'my character' aspect and broaden it to 'our story'.

So in short, I'd say play a free-roleplay game for a session and jump back to D&D and see how that helps both You and your party.:smallsmile: