LGBTAitp #46: I cast Prismatic Hugs!

[Chess435]

Hello, hello, welcome, one and all, to the forty-sixth iteration of our thread, the humble LGBTAI in the playground thread!

The AI is for All-Inclusive, because we have only so much space but everyone, regardless of orientation, direction, letter, acronym or chosen astrological symbol is welcome here! With special thanks to Zorg today for editing :smallsmile:

We do, unfortunately, have a few rules. We are not an anarchical state! Or, we weren't until they voted we were? But shush.

1. We are primarily a support thread.
This means that the primary focus should be in helping people here feel better; about themselves, about their lives, about their problems. We are also an education thread, but when helping someone learn involves not supporting, we will default to support - Mostly. We are only mostly human, after all.

2. If you want answers to Trigger topics, spoiler-box or privately ask them.
This relates to the above. If you want to ask questions debate, and your responses, or a side response, or something involves not being supportive/active antagonism, spoiler it and LABEL YOUR SPOILERS CLEARLY.

Triggery topics will be listed here, when I can get them straight. (hahaha straight)

3. Avoid discussing Politics or Religion.
It doesn't matter how much these two topics intersect with our forum topic, they are verboten. Sometimes, hints are... Looked over, such as "man, in my countery being gay sucks", but detail is right out, and even that could be considered willful disregard. Be Careful. As the moderators themselves often say, if you aren't sure, Don't.

4. Do not Discuss Moral Justification.
No one here is going to discuss whether or not it's Right" or "Okay" to be LGBTAEIOUsometimesY or anything else. It's not topical, it's not relevant. We are, and we are here to cope with that and with the stresses it causes.
And no, my joking acronym doesn't constitute considering this rule less important.

5. Do Not Post Sexually Explicit Content.
It's against forum rules, it's against decorum, and it will get us shut down pretty fast. What adults do behind closed doors is cool, and allusion is fine. Anything that could involve a diagram, though? No.

6. Again, Spoiler-box [Trigger] topics.
This gets a second mention for it's more specific uses. If someone, even just that one individual person, has a problem with a topic, because it stirs demons best left in their pit, Do. Not. Bring. It. Up. Publically. Use a spoilerbox, and think carefully about whether this is the place to broach the topic at all.

This particular rule includes casual and glorified violence, corporal punishment, and in-relationship rape. Which I would hope fell under politics and sex enough they wouldn't come up anyway, but hey.


Glossary of Common Terms

And, for reference, here is a list of commonly used words and definitions by our community. Please understand that this list is currently undergoing construction right now. Any contributions to the list are appreciated.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*

LGBTA: LGBT+Asexual

Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by all - the name comes from the above abbreviation.

QUILTBAG:
Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer

Where a word below is in italics, that means it has it's own entry on the list.

A note on labels: many of these labels are seemingly interchangeable, and for some people they are. However, please do not presume to correct or judge another person's use of a label. Bisexual and Pansexual are especially tricky in this regard, as are transgender and transsexual to a lesser degree.
Often the difference in why one person feels one label is appropriate and not another is deeply personal. If you wish to know more it is probably a topic to seek private advice on, from one of the people listed in the next section.


AFAB/AMAB: Assigned Female/Male at Birth

Agendered: Someone who lacks a gender.

Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.

Androsexual: A person who is attracted to men.

Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.

Binary, The: See: Gender Binary.

Bisexual: 1. attracted to two genders; 2. attracted to one's own gender and another gender; 3. attracted to various genders; 4. attracted to people regardless of gender; 5. ask the person who says they're bi what exactly they mean by that. See also Pansexual

Cis: See: Cisgender

Cisgender (CG): Somebody whose gender and sex align.

Demisexual: A person who is sexually attracted to someone(s) only after they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.

Dysphoria: The disassociation Trans* people feel with their own body.

Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)

Female: See: Woman

Female-to-Male (FtM): Someone who was assigned female at birth, but is male. (AKA: trans man)

FAAB: Female Assigned at Birth.

Feminine: Something generally associated by society with women.

FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. Associated primarily with MAAB Trans people

FtM: See: Female to Male

Gay: A man who is attracted to men.

Gender Binary: The commonly held notion that there are only men and women on two extremes, with nothing in between.

Gender Expression (GE): How one expresses their Gender Identity to society.

Gender Identity (GI): How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other".

Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between different genders.

Genderqueer (GQ): Someone who is not of a binary gender; someone who is not male or female.

Gynosexual: A person who is attracted to women.

Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.

Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.

HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's tend to progestrogens, oestrogens and androgen blockers, while FtM's take testosterone almost exculsively.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.

MAAB: Male Assigned at Birth.

Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)

Man/men: A cis man or trans man. Male.

Masculine: Something generally associated by society with men.

Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender. See also Bisexual

Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.

Presenting: Trans* shorthand for appearing as their preferred gender, regardless of any HRT, SRS or other changes.

Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender primarily, with the asterisk denoting that the trans- prefix could be followed by any number of appropriate words. It also includes other labels, and is a catch-all term for people who identify as something other than their biological sex at birth.

Transgender: Used in reference to a person whose sex(body) and gender(mind) are at odds or do not match. A transgender person can also identify as genderqueer, transsexual, or may use transgender as their only identity.

Transitioning: The process a Trans* person undergoes to move to their preferred gender. Often includes HRT, SRS, FFS.

Transsexual: In common terms the same as transgender above. In medical terms refers specifically to people who wish to transition from male to female or female to male, not accommodating any other options.

SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.

Sexual Orientation (SO): How one identifies who they are attracted to.

Significant Other(s) (SO): Person(s) you are in a relationship with.

Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa. Also a person who feels they do not identify with any other gender identity.

Woman: A cis woman or trans woman. Female.

Allies: Hetereosexual-Cisgender people who support equality for sexual, gender, and romantic minorities.


Private Consultation.

We have a list of people whoa re willing and able to discuss topics that may not be thread-appropriate but are still topical. They can be reached by Personal Message (PM), thought they may not respond immediately, or may be on sabbatical.


Name: Especially familiar with the topic(s) of
KenderWizard: General/basics, gender and feminism, bisexuality
Musashi: General/basics, asexuality/demisexuality, depression
noparlpf: General/basics, asexuality, greysexuality, biology, Skype
Lea Plath: Genderfluidity
Lycunadari: Genderqueer and agendered
Eldest: General/basics, bisexuality, polyamory, pansexuality will Skype(voice if needed, no video)
HMS Sophia: Trans stuff (esp hormones)
Lix Lorn: General/basics
Eirala: Trans stuff (esp emotional issues), Skype(no voice or video, however)
Absol197: Gender identity issues
Warkitty: Academic/technical discussions
Lentrax: General/basics, depression, bullying
Wormwood74: Transgender legal issues, transgender outside contacts
Astrella: GSRM rights, feminism, trans stuff, Skype
Asteron Questar: Relationships, depression
Mystic Muse: Skype-y goodness.
Socratov: Skype-ness
Chess435: Skype
Irish Musician: PM, Rants/Venting
Metditto: PM/Skype for L, T, GQ, BDSM(Off-thread or Spoiler Triggered), demisexual, feminism, therapy, depression, dissociative identities
inuyasha: Shoulder on which to cry, someone to listen
Partysan: PM/Skype, polyamory, pansexuality, BDSM(Off-thread or Spoiler Triggered), Rants/Venting
TaiLiu: General Transgender information, transphobia.
Enrico Dandolo (Caroline) : Trans stuff, mental health, feminism, asexuality, hugs. PM first, Skype chat if asked.

Some people are also willing to talk off-board, through Skype or email or other means; this is especially useful if your question involves board-forbidden topics such as religion or politics. Also, we can't (and ethically shouldn't!) give medical advice. If you need medical advice, please see a professional!

And as a parting note, I will say that even though moderators do not read PMs, they are still part of the forum and still subject to forums rules. Non-allowed topics and discussion should NOT be conducted via PM.


Previous Incarnations

Like the Glorious and Unconquered Sun, we have risen, lived, died, and risen anew, with many faces, many voices, many hearts. In this past, much can be found, both good, and bad, should one be brave or perhaps, foolish, enough to seek it.


LGBT people in the playground

LGBT people in the playground - part II

LGBTitp - part III

LGBTitp 4: We are a family?

LGBTitp - Part Five

LGBTitp - Part Six

LGBTitp - Part Seven

LGBTitp - Part Eight

LGBTitp - Part Nine

LGBTAitp - Part Ten

LGBTAitp - Part Eleven

LGBTAitp - Part Twelve

LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen

LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

LGBTAitp - Part Sixteen

LGBTAitp - Part Seventeen

LGBTAitp - Part Eighteen!

LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty - Critical Hit!

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty-One - BLACKJACK!

LGBTAitP Part 22: The Best There Is

LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

LGBTAitP: Alphabet Soup-with 24 different Vitamins!

LGBTAitP part 25: Doing Away With Subtitles

LGBTAitP 26: No Time For Snappy Titles

LGBTAitP 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!

LGBTAitP #29: The Rainbow Outreach Program

LGBTAitP 30: Free Cuddles (Enquire Within)

LGBTAitP #31: Cuddles Are On Back Order. Have Some Snuggles!

LGBTAitp #32: The Great Plushie Invasion!

LGBTAitp #33: The Thread at the End of the Rainbow!

LGTAitP #34: <3!!

LGBTAitp #35: What Midlife Crisis? :3

LGBTAitp #36: May Contain Bites!

LGBTAitP #37: Once upon a time...

LGBTAitP #38: Once More With Feeling!!

LGBTAitP #38: Making Your Way in the World Today....

LGBTAitP #40: Technicolour Partyboat

LGBTAitp #41 - Imprecise Terminology Supercenter

LGBTAitp #42: Better Than Skittles/The Meaning of Life!

LGBTAitp #43 [Insert snappy subtitle here]

LGBTAIitP #44: Quick, We Need To Vote A New Title!

LGBTAIitP #45: Rainbow Anarchy






Webcomics that touch on... Well, everything related to the thread.
Venus Envy. (http://www.venusenvycomic.com/) Long dead webcomic. The creator has chosen not to continue it and move forward in life.
Rain. (http://rain.thecomicseries.com/comics/first/) A story of a MtF girl in high school.
Khaos Komix. (http://www.khaoskomix.com/)As the creator puts it(from his site): "A complete GLBTWTFBBQ comic about gender and sexuality. (Trigger warnings for EVERYTHING and nothing is safe for work.)"
Always Raining Here. (http://alwaysraininghere.com/index.php/first-page/) "Adrian is heartsick, Carter is horny. This is a story about their misadventures as awkward teenagers as they fumble through unrequited romances."
Tripping over you. (http://trippingoveryou.com/comic/gmorning-sunshine/)An awkward blind date leads to better options.
Questionable Content. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/) The LGBTA characters are well done, and not stereotypes.
What's normal anyway. (http://whatsnormalanyway.net/?p=93) "What’s Normal Anyway? is a comic that discusses the trans male experience through the story of Mel, who takes the big risk of being himself and transitioning from female to male."
Princess. (http://the-princess.funonthe.net/) A webcomic.
Twokinds. (http://twokinds.keenspot.com/) Keveak: "It generally portrays GRSM matters positively and is quite a nice tale overall."
Misfile (Misfile.com) The Rose Dragon: "Ash is a young boy who, as a result of a screw-up in Heaven, gets stuck in a girl's body in a life he doesn't recognize, and has to deal with the changes and challenges of his new body while trying to get back his old life. Supernatural hijinks and car racing are involved."
I know I missed a few webcomics, and if anyone finds more, feel free to PM them to me with a brief description, and I will add them.


The Brand New LGBTA Arts & Crafts Thread! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288941)

[Sabeki]

Ahh, new thread smell! Oh, wait, my nose is clogged, so I can't smell anything:smallannoyed:
Still, yay, new thread!

[Chess435]

Ahh, new thread smell! Oh, wait, my nose is clogged, so I can't smell anything:smallannoyed:
Still, yay, new thread!

*offers some of the hot mustard you get at chinese restaurants*

That'll clear you right up, I promise. :smallamused:

[Brazen Shield]

Oh man. The worst kind of stuffy noses are the ones that even wasabi doesn't unclog...

[SiuiS]

So apparently Hallmark decided to take the word "gay" out of Deck The Halls. George Takei responded. (http://www.amazon.com/Spreadshirt-Apparel-George-T-Shirt-bright/dp/B00GXYOWD8/ref=sr_1_43?tag=ohmy0c-20)

Huh. Is that from Takei? I can't seem to find any information, but that's due to the amazon phone interface being so dumbed down.


I also like Prismatic Hugs :) SiuiS is also up and about now, though driving to work.
Maybe a new thread will be made soon~?

Nah. The ponythread issue with one person insisting on owning the thread is kind of weird. Whoever makes it, makes it. It's all good.

Good work, that Pokemon.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. Right on the money with the first post of page 50 for the new thread. That's timing, alright.

[Chess435]

Nah. The ponythread issue with one person insisting on owning the thread is kind of weird. Whoever makes it, makes it. It's all good.

Good work, that Pokemon.

What happens if Trixie isn't available for some reason?

(Btw, it's a Shaymin. :smallsmile:)


Hmm. Right on the money with the first post of page 50 for the new thread. That's timing, alright.


I was refeshing for post #1470 just for that. :smalltongue:

[Eldest]

Sooo... finals tomorrow. Well, today. In 6 hours. Wish me luck? And hugs?

[Mynxae]

Sooo... finals tomorrow. Well, today. In 6 hours. Wish me luck? And hugs?

*casts Wish for luck and hugs* *suddenly, wild pairs of arms fly from everywhere and crush you with hugs, while rainbows shower you with luck* :smalltongue:

[Graustein]

The mere existence of this thread fills me with a tremendous amount of joy and the fact that it is in its 46th (!!) incarnation makes me glad I finally stopped lurking and joined the Playground. I even got a new webcomic out of it!

I do have an actual question as well though.
I'm experimenting with feminine presentation (specifically makeup and nail polish) and was wondering after general tips on... well, keeping safe. Things to watch out for, I guess? Warning signs that I should probably leave an area? I live in a big city which I've heard is very queer-friendly but I have basically zero street smarts and anxiety issues to boot, so I'm loathe to just go out and do it unless I'm really sure I can feel safe. Or is not feeling safe something I should resign myself to?

Also, anywhere on the internet where I can get actual makeup tips and stuff for the absolute beginner?

I do realise this is somewhat vague and more info would be very helpful but I'm not inclined to announce my location publicly.

[SiuiS]

What happens if Trixie isn't available for some reason?

Either
A) we wait for hours
B) someone else starts it and we have weeks of grumbling and/or passive aggressive factionalization
C) I accidentally ruin Lix Lorn's day and sulk about it for six months

As you can see, it's a colorful and variegated system :smalltongue:


The mere existence of this thread fills me with a tremendous amount of joy and the fact that it is in its 46th (!!) incarnation makes me glad I finally stopped lurking and joined the Playground. I even got a new webcomic out of it!

I do have an actual question as well though.
I'm experimenting with feminine presentation (specifically makeup and nail polish) and was wondering after general tips on... well, keeping safe. Things to watch out for, I guess? Warning signs that I should probably leave an area? I live in a big city which I've heard is very queer-friendly but I have basically zero street smarts and anxiety issues to boot, so I'm loathe to just go out and do it unless I'm really sure I can feel safe. Or is not feeling safe something I should resign myself to?

Also, anywhere on the internet where I can get actual makeup tips and stuff for the absolute beginner?

I do realise this is somewhat vague and more info would be very helpful but I'm not inclined to announce my location publicly.

Nothing specific to your situation so much as just general caution.

Be aware of those around you. If something seems suspicious, don't be subtle and watch it, be obvious and watch it. Don't go through dimly lit areas. Don't travel alone through unfamiliar territory. Keep a phone handy.

Odds are good that anyone who would consider preying on you will see this and you'll never see them because they look for an easier mark. There's always those people this won't deter though, and those are the ones who will start something in a crowded room. And for that, there's some advice that folks often link to victim blaming, until they hear that boys have to do it too, and are just used to it;

Be ready to defend yourself.
It doesn't need to be much. You're better off with it not being much. But something, anything, that serves as a distraction will help. Someone drunk tries to corner you? Put objects between you – tables, stools, chairs and counters, other people – make it clear you don't want any trouble (loudly) and if worst comes to worst, make an opening and run. If you've got to shotgun a handful of coins at someone or toss a salt shaker or even actually flip a table, do it. Just... Don't stand there and wait to see what happens afterwards. If you honestly fear for your safety get the hell out of dodge and call emergency services. Or dial in the number and just don't hit send yet.

Also, know your local laws and customs. Where I live, everything above covers me legally, especially the vocal "do not want, leave me alone" and the fast exit. That doesn't work everywhere. Some police stations are fine staying on the phone with you while you're in a damage round place without sending a car unless they hear something, some get irate you're burning their clock. Preparation is always key.

[Chess435]

Also, could some of you PM Max and talk to him? He's putting up with a lot of crap right now and could use advice and hugs.

Reposting from last thread.

[mistformsquirrl]

Sooo... finals tomorrow. Well, today. In 6 hours. Wish me luck? And hugs?

Good luck! <^,^> *massive hugs*

[Skeppio]

I completely disagree with that, the both of you fine ladies look...well, fine.

*hugs* Thanks...

I dunno, I don't think I look very cute. My socks may look neat, but I don't have anything to go with them, and they'd still be attached to me and not a prettier girl... ._.

[KenderWizard]

Lena, I am so thrilled that your mam seems to be really accepting who you are, that gesture about the ring is wonderful. :smallsmile: ((hugs))


Sooo... finals tomorrow. Well, today. In 6 hours. Wish me luck? And hugs?

Good luck! And good hugs!


The mere existence of this thread fills me with a tremendous amount of joy and the fact that it is in its 46th (!!) incarnation makes me glad I finally stopped lurking and joined the Playground. I even got a new webcomic out of it!

I do have an actual question as well though.
I'm experimenting with feminine presentation (specifically makeup and nail polish) and was wondering after general tips on... well, keeping safe. Things to watch out for, I guess? Warning signs that I should probably leave an area? I live in a big city which I've heard is very queer-friendly but I have basically zero street smarts and anxiety issues to boot, so I'm loathe to just go out and do it unless I'm really sure I can feel safe. Or is not feeling safe something I should resign myself to?

Also, anywhere on the internet where I can get actual makeup tips and stuff for the absolute beginner?

I do realise this is somewhat vague and more info would be very helpful but I'm not inclined to announce my location publicly.

Hello, Graustein! :smallsmile: Welcome to the thread!

I say, trust your instincts. If you're getting a bad vibe from a street or an area, or a group of people, don't tell yourself you're being silly, you're subconsciously picking up on stuff and it's better to be safe than sorry. Generally speaking, the safest places are well lit and have lots of people. If you live in a queer-friendly city, you should be fine, and you should also be able to google your city and find out which areas in particular are queer friendly. You will probably not feel completely safe all the time, but it's possible to learn to be alert and manage your anxieties, and when you get to know the queer areas of your city better, you'll feel much less anxious. Good luck! :smallsmile:

[SiuiS]

Hey, Kender. Have you any interest in or have you seen Disney's Frozen? I'd like your opinion on it and it seems thread-relevant. Or alt least in line with prior thread-relevant conversations.

[SMEE]

So, after thinking a lot during the last few years, I have decided for a breast augmentation surgery.
But I am going for the fat grafting breast augmentation option, instead of the usual saline or silicone implants, as I don't want to have an strange body inside my body.
I should have it middle February and the expected result is 50% to 70% more breast volume from what I have now (not that 50% of almost nothing is much, but it is better than the current status quo!).
I shall post about the experience here after it happens and how consistent the results are through the expected 6 months of healing before the result is considered final.

Should prove to be interesting and actually good for my self esteem.

[Miriel]

The mere existence of this thread fills me with a tremendous amount of joy and the fact that it is in its 46th (!!) incarnation makes me glad I finally stopped lurking and joined the Playground. I even got a new webcomic out of it!

I do have an actual question as well though.
I'm experimenting with feminine presentation (specifically makeup and nail polish) and was wondering after general tips on... well, keeping safe. Things to watch out for, I guess? Warning signs that I should probably leave an area? I live in a big city which I've heard is very queer-friendly but I have basically zero street smarts and anxiety issues to boot, so I'm loathe to just go out and do it unless I'm really sure I can feel safe. Or is not feeling safe something I should resign myself to?

Also, anywhere on the internet where I can get actual makeup tips and stuff for the absolute beginner?

I do realise this is somewhat vague and more info would be very helpful but I'm not inclined to announce my location publicly.
I also live in a big, queer-friendly city and have anxiety issues and zero street smarts, if that helps. I am also presenting almost full time as female (6 days a week) without hormones.

I don't know about what is needed to "keep safe", but I do know about not being paralized by fear, which is much more important. "Safe" or not, you will need to be able to buy groceries without being afraid.

The trick is: just do it, step by step. You mention only nail polish and makeup: really, to be honest, most people on the street won't notice or care, and certainly won't identify you as a dangerous "tranny" to be killed if you're otherwise presenting as male. So go out, notice how you didn't get assaulted, go back home and celebrate. After that, if you want, maybe just go out with feminine clothes under masculine ones, or with slightly feminine clothing that pass as androgynous, etc. This is just so you feel you are sort of presenting as female, even though others won't notice it enough to attack you at random.

I promise you you probably won't be kidnapped or raped or mugged or thrown of a bridge. And every time nothing be happens will be additional conditionning for you, which means you might have the strength to go out even more boldly as female the next time. It's in effect a DIY cognitive behavioral therapy -- if you went to a psychologist, it's likely they would tell you to do exactly that.

Anyway. Are you planning to transition?

For makeup: What kind of tips do you want? Just hide the beard, or something more elaborate?

In any case, there are many tutorials on Youtube, including ones for and by trans girls who are, in all likelihood, relative beginners themselves talking to absolute beginners.

Sooo... finals tomorrow. Well, today. In 6 hours. Wish me luck? And hugs?
I wish you luck.

I'm starting myself in 2 hours. Archeology.

Anyone wants to hear about the differences and similarities between the art and architecture under Trajan and Hadrian? (God I'm glad I'm a medieval historian, not a classical archeologist, and will have the right the forget every single piece of this nonsense in a few hours.)

[noparlpf]

Sooo... finals tomorrow. Well, today. In 6 hours. Wish me luck? And hugs?

Good luck! *hugs*

For me finals start tomorrow, one a day through Friday.

[SiuiS]

So, after thinking a lot during the last few years, I have decided for a breast augmentation surgery.
But I am going for the fat grafting breast augmentation option, instead of the usual saline or silicone implants, as I don't want to have an strange body inside my body.
I should have it middle February and the expected result is 50% to 70% more breast volume from what I have now (not that 50% of almost nothing is much, but it is better than the current status quo!).
I shall post about the experience here after it happens and how consistent the results are through the expected 6 months of healing before the result is considered final.

Should prove to be interesting and actually good for my self esteem.

... Huh. I didn't know that was a possibility. Interesting. Will google.

[Zorg]

I do have an actual question as well though.



Things to watch out for, I guess? Warning signs that I should probably leave an area? I live in a big city which I've heard is very queer-friendly but I have basically zero street smarts and anxiety issues to boot, so I'm loathe to just go out and do it unless I'm really sure I can feel safe. Or is not feeling safe something I should resign myself to?

Being a fellow Australian I can say that Sydney is in my experience is pretty much fine. Like, I've had a variety of minor issues here and there but what I found easiest was to go out with friends to places I know well as that gives you a safe layer of familiarity to cover the anxiety.

I don't really "go out" go out, I tend to do like shopping / dinner / movie / coffee but it can be pretty tough. Sticking to high traffic areas can be a plus as despite there being lots of people about it means there are too many people for you to stand out (or feel like you are).
But really, for me understanding being with you at first friends and families are a big plus.



Also, anywhere on the internet where I can get actual makeup tips and stuff for the absolute beginner?

I like Lisa Eldrige's videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/lisaeldridgedotcom/videos) myself for general makeup stuff (go to the beginning of her video list for basics - she really explains what everything's for in great detail IMO. Tina de Wert (http://www.youtube.com/user/TinaDeWert/videos) has far less videos, but they are trans specific.

For buying make-up, I mostly shop from Target or Woolies to be honest, though going somewhere like DJs or Myer would allow you to get assistance from the clerks though that is a more anxiety inducing prospect I know. That said I'm yet to have any issue with any staff in any store - far more problems with customers when I'm working.

[Mono Vertigo]

*nests in the new thread* :smallamused:



So, I've already mentioned BF's aunt, whom I've helped occasionally with stuff, and who's got a bunch of problems, a few of which having to do with the fact she's trans.
Well, I'm worried about her, and it's nothing I can help about.
Long story short, she's not had breast augmentation surgery. She's planning to have that very, very soon; the appointment was already made.
Problem is, she's got a medical condition that is unlikely to be noticed on time during or before the surgery, but that is serious enough that any surgery has to be planned around it. But she never talked about that medical condition to the surgeon. She omitted the fact on purpose.
Her logic being that she's afraid the surgery would be cancelled, not just delayed.
She's going to undergo the surgery this month. I hope everything goes smoothly, but that's not very likely.

My opinion is that I understand the importance the procedure, but you won't get to enjoy the results if you're dead, which is alarmingly likely to happen here, so lying about your health is a terrible idea. But that's just my opinion, and I don't think it's a great idea to share it with her.

(I also suspect she might not mind death so much because her life is spiraling out of control and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. None of those who still speak to her have the means to help her. Would it be right to remind her that if she should die during the surgery, those of us who still care about her will suffer from her decision? I don't know, and there must not be a right answer to this interrogation.)
At any rate, if something goes wrong, regardless of her choice and the direct consequences on her, the surgeon will have to deal with the fallout, even though it's hardly going to be his fault.

[noparlpf]

*nests in the new thread* :smallamused:



So, I've already mentioned BF's aunt, whom I've helped occasionally with stuff, and who's got a bunch of problems, a few of which having to do with the fact she's trans.
Well, I'm worried about her, and it's nothing I can help about.
Long story short, she's not had breast augmentation surgery. She's planning to have that very, very soon; the appointment was already made.
Problem is, she's got a medical condition that is unlikely to be noticed on time during or before the surgery, but that is serious enough that any surgery has to be planned around it. But she never talked about that medical condition to the surgeon. She omitted the fact on purpose.
Her logic being that she's afraid the surgery would be cancelled, not just delayed.
She's going to undergo the surgery this month. I hope everything goes smoothly, but that's not very likely.

My opinion is that I understand the importance the procedure, but you won't get to enjoy the results if you're dead, which is alarmingly likely to happen here, so lying about your health is a terrible idea. But that's just my opinion, and I don't think it's a great idea to share it with her.

(I also suspect she might not mind death so much because her life is spiraling out of control and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. None of those who still speak to her have the means to help her. Would it be right to remind her that if she should die during the surgery, those of us who still care about her will suffer from her decision? I don't know, and there must not be a right answer to this interrogation.)
At any rate, if something goes wrong, regardless of her choice and the direct consequences on her, the surgeon will have to deal with the fallout, even though it's hardly going to be his fault.

Geez. Is there anything you can do about it besides try to get her to rethink telling the surgeon about it?

[Mono Vertigo]

Geez. Is there anything you can do about it besides try to get her to rethink telling the surgeon about it?

Her own sister (my awesome mother-in-law, the last sibling who stays in touch with her) tried and failed. I don't think I, the girl who just comes sometimes for tea and driving her at places, will have more success.

[QueerKitty]

I've been hearing a lot of trans women identify with Anna, so I'm going to be looking for those cues and aggressively headcanoning her as a trans girl~

Also I tried to read the OP as a person who doesn't know what LGBT stood for and I was very confused until I got to the glossary (and maybe the word gay in #4 after a second reading) so maybe you could talk about queers a little earlier as opposed to just saying "All Inclusive"? It's really ambiguous what the threads about until halfway down imo.

[The Succubus]

*nests in the new thread* :smallamused:



So, I've already mentioned BF's aunt, whom I've helped occasionally with stuff, and who's got a bunch of problems, a few of which having to do with the fact she's trans.
Well, I'm worried about her, and it's nothing I can help about.
Long story short, she's not had breast augmentation surgery. She's planning to have that very, very soon; the appointment was already made.
Problem is, she's got a medical condition that is unlikely to be noticed on time during or before the surgery, but that is serious enough that any surgery has to be planned around it. But she never talked about that medical condition to the surgeon. She omitted the fact on purpose.
Her logic being that she's afraid the surgery would be cancelled, not just delayed.
She's going to undergo the surgery this month. I hope everything goes smoothly, but that's not very likely.

My opinion is that I understand the importance the procedure, but you won't get to enjoy the results if you're dead, which is alarmingly likely to happen here, so lying about your health is a terrible idea. But that's just my opinion, and I don't think it's a great idea to share it with her.

(I also suspect she might not mind death so much because her life is spiraling out of control and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. None of those who still speak to her have the means to help her. Would it be right to remind her that if she should die during the surgery, those of us who still care about her will suffer from her decision? I don't know, and there must not be a right answer to this interrogation.)
At any rate, if something goes wrong, regardless of her choice and the direct consequences on her, the surgeon will have to deal with the fallout, even though it's hardly going to be his fault.

I'd be horrified and devastated if one of my patients did something like that to me. Doctors and surgeons are not unthinking robots - when a patient dies on an operating table in front of them, their blood is literally on their hands and the psychological fallout from that can destroy people. I've seen it happen.

I hate to put this so bluntly but what your aunt is doing right now is unbelievably selfish but worse than that, unnecessary. A complication does not mean that surgery will automatically be denied - surgeons can spend days or even weeks planning an operation and almost all complications can be worked around in some way. Is your aunt really going to gamble her continued existence to avoid discussing some personal worries?

Sorry to be so harsh with all this, Musashi but invasive surgery has to factor in everything. If you can try to convince her, you'd be making the right call.

[Mono Vertigo]

I'd be horrified and devastated if one of my patients did something like that to me. Doctors and surgeons are not unthinking robots - when a patient dies on an operating table in front of them, their blood is literally on their hands and the psychological fallout from that can destroy people. I've seen it happen.

I hate to put this so bluntly but what your aunt is doing right now is unbelievably selfish but worse than that, unnecessary. A complication does not mean that surgery will automatically be denied - surgeons can spend days or even weeks planning an operation and almost all complications can be worked around in some way. Is your aunt really going to gamble her continued existence to avoid discussing some personal worries?

Sorry to be so harsh with all this, Musashi but invasive surgery has to factor in everything. If you can try to convince her, you'd be making the right call.

You're right, it's probably best to remind her there are other actors in this scenario and the hospital staff doesn't deserve that. Also, I was personally aware that even for all the gatekeeping, it was unlikely the procedure was going to be outright cancelled, but alas, that's her fear, not mine, and fear doesn't need to be rational.
Problem? I know about it because my mother-in-law told me, I wasn't told by the interested party. I don't even know if I'm supposed to be aware of this.
Therefore she might take it badly that I'm minding her business unasked. But I probably should call M-I-L back instead and talk her about it so she could have a second shot in this discussion?
(Life's unfair. M-I-L has metric tons of work and problems of her own, she hardly has time for that.)

[Zorg]

Musashi:
My first thought was to tell the surgeon - obviously a lot harder but if it's a literally life threatening situation they need to know.

QK - Anna? Also very good point about the intro.

[The Succubus]

This is going to be rather uncomfortable but it needs to be said. A lot of doctors get accused of gatekeeping, or denying treatment purely out of spite, bigotry, discrimination or whatever. Occasionally, though, people put up gates and what not because the thing on the other side of it is actually dangerous.

If a conversation seems awkward or you're afraid of having it, ask yourself if it's less awkward or unpleasant than planning a funeral. It's a pretty decent rule of thumb for life in general.

[Kittenwolf]

A friend dropped by tonight, and I tried on her Tudor gown for ****s and giggles.
My god this thing is HUGE! So many layers..


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg.html)

[Zorg]

This is a thread for the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Asexual, Pansexual, Transgender, Genderqueer, Agendered, Cisgender (and more!) members to ask questions, share experiences and provide support for one another.
The AI is for All-Inclusive, because we have only so much space in the title, but everyone regardless of orientation, direction, letter, acronym or chosen astrological symbol is welcome here!


Abuse
Sexual abuse
Domestic abuse
Physical abuse
Emotional abuse
Rape
Assault
Explicit sexual discussion
Dysphoric experiences
Homophobia
Transphobia
Racism
Medical discussions
Suicide
Self harm
Intimate flirting
Discussion of fetishes

[Partysan]

Of possible interest to some. (http://en.mercopress.com/2012/09/01/brazil-breaks-ground-grants-civil-union-to-a-trio-under-a-polyfidelitous-relationship)

[cavalieredraghi]

Sooo... finals tomorrow. Well, today. In 6 hours. Wish me luck? And hugs?
*tackle hug* go luck tell us how it went? if you are so inclined.

So, after thinking a lot during the last few years, I have decided for a breast augmentation surgery.
But I am going for the fat grafting breast augmentation option, instead of the usual saline or silicone implants, as I don't want to have an strange body inside my body.
I should have it middle February and the expected result is 50% to 70% more breast volume from what I have now (not that 50% of almost nothing is much, but it is better than the current status quo!).
I shall post about the experience here after it happens and how consistent the results are through the expected 6 months of healing before the result is considered final.

Should prove to be interesting and actually good for my self esteem.
ya for self esteem!

A friend dropped by tonight, and I tried on her Tudor gown for ****s and giggles.
My god this thing is HUGE! So many layers..


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg.html)



it was big, but it looked good on you neo.

[SiuiS]

This is a thread for the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Asexual, Pansexual, Transgender, Genderqueer, Agendered, Cisgender (and more!) members to ask questions, share experiences and provide support for one another.
The AI is for All-Inclusive, because we have only so much space in the title, but everyone regardless of orientation, direction, letter, acronym or chosen astrological symbol is welcome here!


Abuse
Sexual abuse
Domestic abuse
Physical abuse
Emotional abuse
Rape
Assault
Explicit sexual discussion
Dysphoric experiences
Homophobia
Transphobia
Racism
Medical discussions
Suicide
Self harm
Intimate flirting
Discussion of fetishes


Neat! Thank you. That's totally getting in there as soon as it's possible for me to influence it, if not sooner. :smallsmile:


Of possible interest to some. (http://en.mercopress.com/2012/09/01/brazil-breaks-ground-grants-civil-union-to-a-trio-under-a-polyfidelitous-relationship)

Bangerang! :smallbiggrin:

[QueerKitty]

This is a thread for the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Asexual, Pansexual, Transgender, Genderqueer, Agendered, Cisgender (and more!) members to ask questions, share experiences and provide support for one another.
The AI is for All-Inclusive, because we have only so much space in the title, but everyone regardless of orientation, direction, letter, acronym or chosen astrological symbol is welcome here!


Abuse
Sexual abuse
Domestic abuse
Physical abuse
Emotional abuse
Rape
Assault
Explicit sexual discussion
Dysphoric experiences
Homophobia
Transphobia
Racism
Medical discussions
Suicide
Self harm
Intimate flirting
Discussion of fetishes


Ish good. I would use Agender instead of Agendered, it's just like transgendered or something.

I would say cissexism as a trigger but even trans people can be bad at recognizing that (and labeling it as such).

[KenderWizard]

Hey, Kender. Have you any interest in or have you seen Disney's Frozen? I'd like your opinion on it and it seems thread-relevant. Or alt least in line with prior thread-relevant conversations.

I'm going to see it in an hour! :smallbiggrin: I will let you know!


So, after thinking a lot during the last few years, I have decided for a breast augmentation surgery.
But I am going for the fat grafting breast augmentation option, instead of the usual saline or silicone implants, as I don't want to have an strange body inside my body.
I should have it middle February and the expected result is 50% to 70% more breast volume from what I have now (not that 50% of almost nothing is much, but it is better than the current status quo!).
I shall post about the experience here after it happens and how consistent the results are through the expected 6 months of healing before the result is considered final.

Should prove to be interesting and actually good for my self esteem.

Wow, good for you! I hope it's all smooth sailing. Good luck!



So, I've already mentioned BF's aunt, whom I've helped occasionally with stuff, and who's got a bunch of problems, a few of which having to do with the fact she's trans.
Well, I'm worried about her, and it's nothing I can help about.
Long story short, she's not had breast augmentation surgery. She's planning to have that very, very soon; the appointment was already made.
Problem is, she's got a medical condition that is unlikely to be noticed on time during or before the surgery, but that is serious enough that any surgery has to be planned around it. But she never talked about that medical condition to the surgeon. She omitted the fact on purpose.
Her logic being that she's afraid the surgery would be cancelled, not just delayed.
She's going to undergo the surgery this month. I hope everything goes smoothly, but that's not very likely.

My opinion is that I understand the importance the procedure, but you won't get to enjoy the results if you're dead, which is alarmingly likely to happen here, so lying about your health is a terrible idea. But that's just my opinion, and I don't think it's a great idea to share it with her.

(I also suspect she might not mind death so much because her life is spiraling out of control and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. None of those who still speak to her have the means to help her. Would it be right to remind her that if she should die during the surgery, those of us who still care about her will suffer from her decision? I don't know, and there must not be a right answer to this interrogation.)
At any rate, if something goes wrong, regardless of her choice and the direct consequences on her, the surgeon will have to deal with the fallout, even though it's hardly going to be his fault.

:smalleek: Okay, all bets are off, here, Musashi. You do not deserve this, and neither does MIL, but looks like it's up to the two of you to get this done, however is necessary. Step one for you is to talk to MIL and offer to help. Maybe your boyfriend can also help. You're not as close to her, but maybe that would convince her; if she's depressed she might think no one would miss her, if the girl who sometimes comes around for tea is telling her she would really be missed, she might believe it more than from her very close family. You need to try to talk her into telling the surgeon. There are ways to work around these surgical problems. Promise her, all of you, that you'll help her get this surgery safely. Last resort, tell the surgeon. Or tell her GP/primary doctor and get them to tell the surgeon. She'll be really cross, but really cross is like a billion times better than really dead.

[Proud Tortoise]

Of possible interest to some. (http://en.mercopress.com/2012/09/01/brazil-breaks-ground-grants-civil-union-to-a-trio-under-a-polyfidelitous-relationship)

I hate the Slippery Slope fallacy. Hate, hate, hate!

[QueerKitty]

I hate the Slippery Slope fallacy. Hate, hate, hate!

Careful, that could lead to hating other logical fallacies~

[Zorg]

Careful, that could lead to hating other logical fallacies~

http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/mal-speechless.gif

And agreed on both points about list stuff.

[Astrella]

Petty complaining:
So, my anxiety therapist misgendered me accidentally today during our session, and while I hadn't shaved properly and was wearing unflattering frumpy guy clothes it still stung hard. And we talked a bunch about misgendering and how to handle it and it just… bleh, was stressful. And I feel pathetic for being so worked up about this and getting a blow in my self-esteem over it. :/

(Also said that I still look more like a boy than a girl, which wasn't really bad in the context cause we were talking about how me being early in transition can be a way to rationalize my fears... but still...)

I mean... the session itself went pretty well and was helpful, I just feel all cruddy right now and am angry at myself cause of it.

[Zorg]

Petty complaining:
So, my anxiety therapist misgendered me accidentally today during our session, and while I hadn't shaved properly and was wearing unflattering frumpy guy clothes it still stung hard. And we talked a bunch about misgendering and how to handle it and it just… bleh, was stressful. And I feel pathetic for being so worked up about this and getting a blow in my self-esteem over it. :/

(Also said that I still look more like a boy than a girl, which wasn't really bad in the context cause we were talking about how me being early in transition can be a way to rationalize my fears... but still...)

I mean... the session itself went pretty well and was helpful, I just feel all cruddy right now and am angry at myself cause of it.

Don't be down for getting annoyed and no need to be angry at yourself - it's annoying when people do it, even if there is an "excuse". Getting that stuff out in an emotional way to someone like a therapist is better than letting it slide, then and not talking through how to and blowing up at someone who's job isn't to deal with it.

And as for self esteem I was feeling a crappy this arvo as I had to call up somewhere and got pinged as "sir" when they answered the phone. If you think something sucks and upsets you there doesn't always need to be a "good reason" for it (especially when it's about the perception of your identity).

[Miriel]

A friend dropped by tonight, and I tried on her Tudor gown for ****s and giggles.
My god this thing is HUGE! So many layers..


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg.html)


*jealousy*


So, I've already mentioned BF's aunt, whom I've helped occasionally with stuff, and who's got a bunch of problems, a few of which having to do with the fact she's trans.
Well, I'm worried about her, and it's nothing I can help about.
Long story short, she's not had breast augmentation surgery. She's planning to have that very, very soon; the appointment was already made.
Problem is, she's got a medical condition that is unlikely to be noticed on time during or before the surgery, but that is serious enough that any surgery has to be planned around it. But she never talked about that medical condition to the surgeon. She omitted the fact on purpose.
Her logic being that she's afraid the surgery would be cancelled, not just delayed.
She's going to undergo the surgery this month. I hope everything goes smoothly, but that's not very likely.

My opinion is that I understand the importance the procedure, but you won't get to enjoy the results if you're dead, which is alarmingly likely to happen here, so lying about your health is a terrible idea. But that's just my opinion, and I don't think it's a great idea to share it with her.

(I also suspect she might not mind death so much because her life is spiraling out of control and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. None of those who still speak to her have the means to help her. Would it be right to remind her that if she should die during the surgery, those of us who still care about her will suffer from her decision? I don't know, and there must not be a right answer to this interrogation.)
At any rate, if something goes wrong, regardless of her choice and the direct consequences on her, the surgeon will have to deal with the fallout, even though it's hardly going to be his fault.
Kender's plan would be mine. The surgeon must be told. If she doesn't tell surgeon/GP herself, then someone must do it, you, someone else, whatever.

If she secretely hopes that she will die "by accident" because depression, etc., I can understand. However, if her potential "suicide" plans are of this sort, it would suggest that she is not deeply committed to suicide, and that even though she may entertain death as a positive, it's not "real" yet. Yet if she doesn't tell anyone, it will quickly become very, very real, without her input at the moment of the "suicide attempt". She won't have the chance to go back because the actual "suicide" actions will be undertaken by the surgeon, and she won't be able to react because of the anaesthesia.


Careful, that could lead to hating other logical fallacies~
That's a win, I think.

[The Succubus]

Petty complaining:
So, my anxiety therapist misgendered me accidentally today during our session, and while I hadn't shaved properly and was wearing unflattering frumpy guy clothes it still stung hard. And we talked a bunch about misgendering and how to handle it and it just… bleh, was stressful. And I feel pathetic for being so worked up about this and getting a blow in my self-esteem over it. :/

(Also said that I still look more like a boy than a girl, which wasn't really bad in the context cause we were talking about how me being early in transition can be a way to rationalize my fears... but still...)

I mean... the session itself went pretty well and was helpful, I just feel all cruddy right now and am angry at myself cause of it.

Mmm, don't be too harsh on feeling crappy, Lena. Therapy is inevitably going to stir up uncomfortable stuffs for you, especially anxiety therapy. That's kind of the point, so that when you start to settle back down, some of the uncomfortable stuffs will settle down in the right places too. :)

[cavalieredraghi]

Petty complaining:
So, my anxiety therapist misgendered me accidentally today during our session, and while I hadn't shaved properly and was wearing unflattering frumpy guy clothes it still stung hard. And we talked a bunch about misgendering and how to handle it and it just… bleh, was stressful. And I feel pathetic for being so worked up about this and getting a blow in my self-esteem over it. :/

(Also said that I still look more like a boy than a girl, which wasn't really bad in the context cause we were talking about how me being early in transition can be a way to rationalize my fears... but still...)

I mean... the session itself went pretty well and was helpful, I just feel all cruddy right now and am angry at myself cause of it.

I am sorry girl. just don't bottle up your emotions that is never a good thing.

[Delusion]

So speech therapy went fine ^^
The therapist was super nice etc and has worked with trans* patients a lot before (understatement. AFAIK almost all of HUS's trans* patients that need speech therapy are send to her).

The advice she gave made a lot more sense than those youtube videos I have seen.

[Jormengand]

Threads for the thread god! Posts for the post throne!

I have been considering going out somewhere as a girl, but am really, really petrified of meeting someone I know. (Having been in both the major schools in the area, and being relatively well-known, could easily amount to 3k out of the 56k people in the town knowing who I am, and I don't know who a lot of said people are.) A single one of them could result in a really damn awkward situation, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.

But dammit, I wanna be a girl!

[KenderWizard]

I've been hearing a lot of trans women identify with Anna, so I'm going to be looking for those cues and aggressively headcanoning her as a trans girl~


I would say there's more parallels with Elsa. I'm about to google around reviews and stuff, though, so I'll keep an eye out for Anna-as-trans theories.


Elsa's told by her parents that she has to hide her powers, cause people won't understand her and she'll frighten them. She uses clothes to cover herself up. When people find out and react badly, she runs away and, alone, she can dress as she pleases and use her powers, show herself off. In the end, she needs people to love her, and she can show who she really is.


Also, generally, it is a beautiful movie, it has TWO main female characters who are DIFFERENT and FULLY ROUNDED HUMANS! It's got a bunch of messy relationships, no weird sexist evil-stepmother tropes, some excellent plot twisting, the comic relief character is actually adorable and hilarious (I usually hate the comic relief), and it's just a really fun and touching film.

[Jaycemonde]

I've been hearing a lot of trans women identify with Anna, so I'm going to be looking for those cues and aggressively headcanoning her as a trans girl~

Who's Anna and what story is she in?
Also, I've always seen Rarity as being a trans girl.

[Coidzor]

Who's Anna and what story is she in?

Newish movie from Disney(?) called Frozen. Princess with ice powers from the trailers, presumably.


So, I've already mentioned BF's aunt, whom I've helped occasionally with stuff, and who's got a bunch of problems, a few of which having to do with the fact she's trans.
Well, I'm worried about her, and it's nothing I can help about.
Long story short, she's not had breast augmentation surgery. She's planning to have that very, very soon; the appointment was already made.
Problem is, she's got a medical condition that is unlikely to be noticed on time during or before the surgery, but that is serious enough that any surgery has to be planned around it. But she never talked about that medical condition to the surgeon. She omitted the fact on purpose.
Her logic being that she's afraid the surgery would be cancelled, not just delayed.
She's going to undergo the surgery this month. I hope everything goes smoothly, but that's not very likely.

My opinion is that I understand the importance the procedure, but you won't get to enjoy the results if you're dead, which is alarmingly likely to happen here, so lying about your health is a terrible idea. But that's just my opinion, and I don't think it's a great idea to share it with her.

(I also suspect she might not mind death so much because her life is spiraling out of control and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. None of those who still speak to her have the means to help her. Would it be right to remind her that if she should die during the surgery, those of us who still care about her will suffer from her decision? I don't know, and there must not be a right answer to this interrogation.)
At any rate, if something goes wrong, regardless of her choice and the direct consequences on her, the surgeon will have to deal with the fallout, even though it's hardly going to be his fault.

If you think it'll help avoid having her make her surgeon into her killer, you should probably do it, yeah. Would a sit down intervention with all those interested in her well-being be feasible?

Though I suppose this is a great example of why universal health records would be good to have. :/


I was refeshing for post #1470 just for that. :smalltongue:

You just had to take away the magic. :smalltongue:


So, after thinking a lot during the last few years, I have decided for a breast augmentation surgery.
But I am going for the fat grafting breast augmentation option, instead of the usual saline or silicone implants, as I don't want to have an strange body inside my body.
I should have it middle February and the expected result is 50% to 70% more breast volume from what I have now (not that 50% of almost nothing is much, but it is better than the current status quo!).
I shall post about the experience here after it happens and how consistent the results are through the expected 6 months of healing before the result is considered final.

Should prove to be interesting and actually good for my self esteem.

Indeed! :smallsmile: Sort of silly this far in advance, but I hope everything goes well leading up to it and through it.


Of possible interest to some. (http://en.mercopress.com/2012/09/01/brazil-breaks-ground-grants-civil-union-to-a-trio-under-a-polyfidelitous-relationship)

I just hope their bureaucracy can handle it while their legal code catches up. (http://qntm.org/gay)

[Lix Lorn]

Either
A) we wait for hours
B) someone else starts it and we have weeks of grumbling and/or passive aggressive factionalization
C) I accidentally ruin Lix Lorn's day and sulk about it for six months.
And I NEVER FORGAVE YOU.
I forgave you.


So, after thinking a lot during the last few years, I have decided for a breast augmentation surgery.
But I am going for the fat grafting breast augmentation option, instead of the usual saline or silicone implants, as I don't want to have an strange body inside my body.
I should have it middle February and the expected result is 50% to 70% more breast volume from what I have now (not that 50% of almost nothing is much, but it is better than the current status quo!).
I shall post about the experience here after it happens and how consistent the results are through the expected 6 months of healing before the result is considered final.

Should prove to be interesting and actually good for my self esteem.
You'll look beautiful. :)
So... no change there :smallwink:


A friend dropped by tonight, and I tried on her Tudor gown for ****s and giggles.
My god this thing is HUGE! So many layers..


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg.html)


You look good! In a tudor way!

[QueerKitty]

Actually it was Elsa I meant! I haven't seen it yet, so I mixed them up :P but I've been aggressively headcanoning lots of characters as trans girls, so why not both? :P

[Mina Kobold]

Who's Anna and what story is she in?
Also, I've always seen Rarity as being a trans girl.

Apparently the main character from Disney's Frozen, which is allegedly based on The Snow Queen by H. C. Andersen. I'd say more, but I only know the fairy tale and everything I hear about the film indicates that it's a very loose adaptation. Which is a shame, because the original has quite a lot of female characters doing stuff, is about a non-princess girl rescuing a boy (who is not a love interest), and even includes a Sami character. Plus, talking flowers, birds and a reindeer. The film does not seem to have any of that, which displeases me. :smallmad::smalltongue:

[Miriel]

Hum, I notice that I was not added to the consultants, as I asked in the last thread, so...

@ Chess435: Enrico Dandolo (Caroline) : Trans stuff, mental health, feminism, asexuality, hugs. PM first, Skype chat if asked.

[KenderWizard]

Newish movie from Disney(?) called Frozen. Princess with ice powers from the trailers, presumably.


Naw, she's the younger one, with reddish hair. Elsa's the one with ice powers, she's got white hair.


Actually it was Elsa I meant! I haven't seen it yet, so I mixed them up :P but I've been aggressively headcanoning lots of characters as trans girls, so why not both? :P

:smallbiggrin: Why not?


Apparently the main character from Disney's Frozen, which is allegedly based on The Snow Queen by H. C. Andersen. I'd say more, but I only know the fairy tale and everything I hear about the film indicates that it's a very loose adaptation. Which is a shame, because the original has quite a lot of female characters doing stuff, is about a non-princess girl rescuing a boy (who is not a love interest), and even includes a Sami character. Plus, talking flowers, birds and a reindeer. The film does not seem to have any of that, which displeases me. :smallmad::smalltongue:

It is an extremely loose adaptation, but it's still awesome, it still has a girl going on a rescue, and lots of female characters doing stuff, and a reindeer.

[Chess435]

Hum, I notice that I was not added to the consultants, as I asked in the last thread, so...

@ Chess435: Enrico Dandolo (Caroline) : Trans stuff, mental health, feminism, asexuality, hugs. PM first, Skype chat if asked.

You are in! :smallbiggrin:

[noparlpf]

I think this (http://misandry-mermaid.tumblr.com/post/48969803397/i-believe-in-both-feminism-and-misandry-because) is a bit of a weird definition of misandry. Thoughts?

[CurlyKitGirl]

So something I encountered a fortnight ago bugged me, and still niggles at me in a way that makes me want to vent. So I'm here to vent at last.
As you may have guessed from my name, I am a biological female, but as far as I'm concerned I'm androgyne and fairly gender fluid. I'm fine with being referred to with female pronouns, because after trying out male/neutral ones they didn't feel right, but I still tend to consider myself as being gender neutral with occasional swings of overt gender. Does that make sense?
Anyway, I have hormonal problems; PCOS to be precise, which makes me resent my body in some ways, though not exactly enough to have body dysmorphia. I'd rather just look a little less female and that entire period thing is utterly disgusting, but I also don't like the facial hair or hair thinning coming from excessive testosterone, but I generally like my body.
So I go into the hospital to see my specialist about some things and there's a survey sheet to fill in.

Sexuality is surprisingly encompassing - heterosexual, gay/lesbian, bisexual, asexual, prefer not to say. Well, I'm mostly bi (romantic technically, sex is just weird and creepy) so I chose that.
Gender isn't that bad. Male/female, were you born this way?

But. I'm not male or female, and I was born this way. But I'm legally female so that's what I chose. But I'm not, and when I tried to explain to Mum why I just wanted to leave the section blank (even though I had to fill it in) she said something along the lines of "Well, you're a girl, so pick that." Now Mum and Dad have always said 'as long as you're happy we're fine with it. But we still want grandchildren' (even though it's slightly hypocritical as they think gay sex/displays of affection between two people who outwardly have the same sex is gross), so I know she meant it only in the sense of 'it doesn't matter, it's just a stupid form' (and admittedly they have some trouble with the idea of body =/= gender), but that form still annoys me.
Yeah, I like wearing female clothing quite a bit, but skirts and dresses are too much - they always make me feel a little like I'm in drag, though they're starting to appeal more nowadays - and I prefer female pronouns, but I still like wearing men's clothing too (even if excess boobage makes it hard for me to pass as a male from any angle but the back) and I think on average I tend to trend towards neutral->masculine more than anything else.
But I recently began parting my hair on 'the man's side' and liked it, then went and got my hair cut to the shortest it had been in three years, and it was surprisingly neutral. I liked it. It was mildly masculine in cut and style with some layers, but my hair is wavy-curly and slightly wild, so it looks nicely feminine too. And now I want it shorter because I liked the way I looked neutral->female, and want to see it cut shorter and more exaggerated. And then I'mma go put make up on and enjoy the feeling of being a little bit in drag.
I like my maleness as much as I like my femaleness, though the latter still surprises me quite a bit, and not being able to have any option but Male or Female irked me in a fashion not unlike having sand in your shoe and not being able to get it out.

So now it's out and I feel relieved.

[Chess435]

I think this (http://misandry-mermaid.tumblr.com/post/48969803397/i-believe-in-both-feminism-and-misandry-because) is a bit of a weird definition of misandry. Thoughts?

I think that's totally fine, as long as individuals aren't held responsible for things they didn't do.

[Jormengand]

-

WELCOME!

Hope you enjoy your stay. And you have my sympathies. Last time I had to fill a survey in, it was very tempting to tick both boxes for gender, and write "Well, it's a good thing you provided an "Other" option, isn't it? Thank you for considering that there might be people outside the gender binary," though in the end I didn't, on the basis that they'd probably think I was just weird.

Anyway, welcome.

[Coidzor]

I think this (http://misandry-mermaid.tumblr.com/post/48969803397/i-believe-in-both-feminism-and-misandry-because) is a bit of a weird definition of misandry. Thoughts?

I detest the arrogance of people who refuse to clarify when their wording is legitimately confusing and they're approached in a polite manner, so I might just be biased against this person before even reading the post as yet another ****-waving pseudo-intellectual trying to wow others with the size of their e-****.

Their definition feels like a complete non sequitur, as does their characterization of equality as striving for a world where everyone can be a ***** without getting called out for it. :smallconfused: Indeed, separating the two seems quite odd, and almost like it's an excuse to only tear down and never give consideration to building up.

Every time I want to give Tumblr a chance, I run into things like this.

[CurlyKitGirl]

WELCOME!

Hope you enjoy your stay. And you have my sympathies. Last time I had to fill a survey in, it was very tempting to tick both boxes for gender, and write "Well, it's a good thing you provided an "Other" option, isn't it? Thank you for considering that there might be people outside the gender binary," though in the end I didn't, on the basis that they'd probably think I was just weird.

Anyway, welcome.

Hello!
Ah, that would have been a nice one to answer back with, as would be 'Prefer Not To Say', except then some busybody receptionist (who only meant the best, really) would have ended up ticking Female because my name is feminine. Also PCOS is a thing for biological females only.
But then, fifty years ago I doubt the survey would have supplied any form of a Sexuality section at all, so there's a lot of hope isn't there? And they did have the option for trans people there too which really was nice.
There's also the slight fact that if there'd been an option for pansexual I'd have gone for that, but that is just a quibble.
But really I think it's fun (if that's even the right word to use) being non-traditionally gendered for reasons I can't quite explain because I don't really know how I'll feel about anything until I do it, and then my opinion on it might change afterwards! It's an eternal surprise. It also means that when I talk about manning/girling up/out I mean it quite literally which I think is a fine distinction people don't recognise. It's not derogatory when I say it (even though it probably is), it's just . . . literal. For me.
Really I'm just complicated, and I like it. Though it can be annoying having to say things like 'As a biological female [bleh]' and sometimes have people say strange things back.

[Mina Kobold]

It is an extremely loose adaptation, but it's still awesome, it still has a girl going on a rescue, and lots of female characters doing stuff, and a reindeer.

It does sound good (apart from the head of animation stating that multiple female characters are difficult because women has to be pretty and sensitive), though I was just a bit annoyed that the trailers indicate a romantic subplot, two male characters sharing Anna's screen time, an all-white cast (Though, as at least one Saami blogger (http://selchieproductions.tumblr.com/post/37935923813/disneys-frozen) has complained, they still get uncomfortably appropriative of Saami cultural elements) and both of those amounting to less diversity (in trailers) than the 1845 fairy tale. Unless people are right about the main siblings being trans, in which case it gets points for amazing. ^_^'

I'm probably a bit biased by that whole head of animation quote and the Saami clothing bit, though, so take my pre-watching impression with a grain of snow. Well, those reasons and the fact that the names sound hilarious to me. :smalltongue:


PS: A Koboldy welcome from me too, Curly! Hope you'll have fun here. Agree that the questionnaire was very lacking, but it's promising that it's gotten this far. Perhaps you being there and possibly being able to mention it could even help it! ^_^

Also, if you wrote that you prefer not to say, wouldn't that make a receptionist overriding your preferences kind of insensitive? Meaning well confuses me when the reaction to "I don't want to say this" is "I'll just jot it down anyway! :D" ^_^'

[Jormengand]

Really I'm just complicated, and I like it. Though it can be annoying having to say things like 'As a biological female [bleh]' and sometimes have people say strange things back.

Yeah, I kinda like being complicated.

"Wait, so are you a guy or a girl?"
"No."
...
"I thought you were a guy..."
"I was, and now I'm a girl."
...
"So, wait, are you a girl?"
"Today, yes."

Fun to confuse people with, if nothing else...

...Though it does have the side-effect that at times I feel terrible. Ugh.

[QueerKitty]

I think this (http://misandry-mermaid.tumblr.com/post/48969803397/i-believe-in-both-feminism-and-misandry-because) is a bit of a weird definition of misandry. Thoughts?

I really like it but not as a definition of misandry, more an explanation. I disagree that the definition of feminism is "empowering women", that's just one of the goals. Misandry in this case, instead of being the reduction of harmful privileges, I see as a response by men when they are called out on displaying these harmful privileges.

[KenderWizard]

Yeah, Frozen's not perfect. It would have been better to have some racial diversity, definitely. I was very skeptical about it, because of the comments about the animation being hard because of having two female characters, and because of all the white-boys-and-snowmen advertising, but I think it does so well on the female characters front and the subverting traditional Disney romance front that it deserves some slack. One step at a time and all that.

[noparlpf]

I really like it but not as a definition of misandry, more an explanation. I disagree that the definition of feminism is "empowering women", that's just one of the goals. Misandry in this case, instead of being the reduction of harmful privileges, I see as a response by men when they are called out on displaying these harmful privileges.

I like the post except where they keep misusing the word "misandry", which really invalidates everything else because it makes them sound like a bigot too.

[QueerKitty]

Really I'm just complicated, and I like it. Though it can be annoying having to say things like 'As a biological female [bleh]' and sometimes have people say strange things back.

Just so you know, "biological female" is a really crappy term.

I like the post except where they keep misusing the word "misandry", which really invalidates everything else because it makes them sound like a bigot too.

Yeah, that's what I was saying, except you can't be bigoted against men. :P

[noparlpf]

Yeah, that's what I was saying, except you can't be bigoted against men. :P

No, of course not. :smalltongue:

[CurlyKitGirl]

It does sound good (apart from the head of animation stating that multiple female characters are difficult because women has to be pretty and sensitive), though I was just a bit annoyed that the trailers indicate a romantic subplot, two male characters sharing Anna's screen time, an all-white cast (Though, as at least one Saami blogger (http://selchieproductions.tumblr.com/post/37935923813/disneys-frozen) has complained, they still get uncomfortably appropriative of Saami cultural elements) and both of those amounting to less diversity (in trailers) than the 1845 fairy tale. Unless people are right about the main siblings being trans, in which case it gets points for amazing. ^_^'

I'm probably a bit biased by that whole head of animation quote and the Saami clothing bit, though, so take my pre-watching impression with a grain of snow. Well, those reasons and the fact that the names sound hilarious to me. :smalltongue:

Really? The head of animation said that? Well I hope he got a nice round of glares from people s/he worked with. And at least your trailers indicated something of substance; literally the only trailer for Frozen I've seen (I'm in the UK for the reference) involves a . . . talking animal - I almost want to say it's a snowman, but I just don't want it to be - and a male in some form of 'comedic moment'. I didn't even know there were two siblings in it, let alone that they were both female!
So that trailer seriously put me off, and I'm a biiiiiiiig fan of Disney's animated works. But I've still heard good things about it, so I'm still going to see it anyway. Besides, the Tangled trailers played up the comedy and that wasn't a complete comedy.
That said, the lack of diversity is a problem, but as with most things, one step at a time. Yeah, it's not great that we have to go one step at a time, but acclimatising people is a good thing.


PS: A Koboldy welcome from me too, Curly! Hope you'll have fun here. Agree that the questionnaire was very lacking, but it's promising that it's gotten this far. Perhaps you being there and possibly being able to mention it could even help it! ^_^

Also, if you wrote that you prefer not to say, wouldn't that make a receptionist overriding your preferences kind of insensitive? Meaning well confuses me when the reaction to "I don't want to say this" is "I'll just jot it down anyway! :D" ^_^'

No, the survey only had the options Male and Female with a follow-up question of 'Is this the gender you were born with? Yes/No' or something along those lines. No Prefer Not to Say option.
And as for mentioning it to the receptionists/other I had a seriously stressful time getting to the hospital and suffer from serious shyness/polite deference with most people so I didn't.
Next time though . . .

And really, given that I live in a rural part of the country and my general area is mildly-to-quite-traditional in some aspects I consider it a bonus that it was at least a county wide survey.

EDIT:

Just so you know, "biological female" is a really crappy term.

Eh, I'm stumbling along trying to figure out how to refer to myself when I'm feeling male-in-a-female-body, masculine-in-a-female-body, neutral-in-a-female-body and everything else.
It's the best term I have so far, but I'm still looking.

[The Succubus]

Hey Curly! =)

From what you've described, would the terms "genderqueer" or "agender" be applicable to your situation?

[QueerKitty]

Eh, I'm stumbling along trying to figure out how to refer to myself when I'm feeling male-in-a-female-body, masculine-in-a-female-body, neutral-in-a-female-body and everything else.
It's the best term I have so far, but I'm still looking.

Sounds genderfluid to me. There's lots of terms and stuff. But yeah, "man in a woman's body" and "woman in a man's body" is just old cissexist crap. A trans girl's body is her own, and therefore it is a woman's body. (I know you're using male/female but yeah) If you have fluctuating masculine/neutral/feminine feelings that sounds genderfluid, but then we could get into the differences between sex/gender identity/presentation/roles etc

[KenderWizard]

Really? The head of animation said that? Well I hope he got a nice round of glares from people s/he worked with. And at least your trailers indicated something of substance; literally the only trailer for Frozen I've seen (I'm in the UK for the reference) involves a . . . talking animal - I almost want to say it's a snowman, but I just don't want it to be - and a male in some form of 'comedic moment'. I didn't even know there were two siblings in it, let alone that they were both female!
So that trailer seriously put me off, and I'm a biiiiiiiig fan of Disney's animated works. But I've still heard good things about it, so I'm still going to see it anyway. Besides, the Tangled trailers played up the comedy and that wasn't a complete comedy.
That said, the lack of diversity is a problem, but as with most things, one step at a time. Yeah, it's not great that we have to go one step at a time, but acclimatising people is a good thing.


Yuuup, it was a big eyeroll moment all around (http://www.themarysue.com/frozen-animating-female-characters/) and I hope he got given out to.

I avoided the trailers because I kept hearing they were awful and I was hopeful for the two-main-female-characters thing, and I'm glad. I watched a trailer for interest after watching the movie today, and it was bizarre. They made everyone seem different than their main character traits and they must have used every single joke the snowman makes, in order to fill 2 minutes of comedy.

Frozen is suffering from "but it's imaginary historical Norway/Finland and Scandinavians are white". Which is a false argument, but it's a way stronger false argument than "there should be only white people in movies set in modern day America because ... uh ... yeah", so I can see, in a world where the latter is still working, the former will easily slide by.

[DMwithoutPC's]

does anybody else love Khaos Comix? I think the stories are just so sweet, and It's a very good example of stories being very different from someone else's perspective.

It;s something that makes me very happy when I read it, and I wanted to spread the love! (although a lot of you probably allready know about it)

http://www.khaoskomix.com/

[Jormengand]

does anybody else love Khaos Comix? I think the stories are just so sweet, and It's a very good example of stories being very different from someone else's perspective.

It;s something that makes me very happy when I read it, and I wanted to spread the love! (although a lot of you probably allready know about it)

http://www.khaoskomix.com/

It's in the first post of every thread for several back. :p

[CurlyKitGirl]

Sounds genderfluid to me. There's lots of terms and stuff. But yeah, "man in a woman's body" and "woman in a man's body" is just old cissexist crap. A trans girl's body is her own, and therefore it is a woman's body. (I know you're using male/female but yeah) If you have fluctuating masculine/neutral/feminine feelings that sounds genderfluid, but then we could get into the differences between sex/gender identity/presentation/roles etc

Aannnd while my relatives do try, they are cissexist and all that jazz, and don't really understand how I can something feel masculine, feminine, neutral, nothing a mix and everything else that comes with being genderfluid, so that's the best way for everything to be clear between us. I did identify as genderfluid back a page, but I also know that to some people this doesn't mean much, so I go for something else.
Plus a few of my relatives are out-and-out homophobes who are honestly trying to understand that I'm not heterosexual, so one step at a time.


Yuuup, it was a big eyeroll moment all around (http://www.themarysue.com/frozen-animating-female-characters/) and I hope he got given out to.

I avoided the trailers because I kept hearing they were awful and I was hopeful for the two-main-female-characters thing, and I'm glad. I watched a trailer for interest after watching the movie today, and it was bizarre. They made everyone seem different than their main character traits and they must have used every single joke the snowman makes, in order to fill 2 minutes of comedy.

Frozen is suffering from "but it's imaginary historical Norway/Finland and Scandinavians are white". Which is a false argument, but it's a way stronger false argument than "there should be only white people in movies set in modern day America because ... uh ... yeah", so I can see, in a world where the latter is still working, the former will easily slide by.

Well, damn, I just looked up a scene from Frozen, this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk) (possible spoilers? I don't know who she actually is), and that's beautiful and I may have developed a slight crush on animated Idina Mendez, so guess what I'll be seeing soon?
God that animation is gorgeous (even better than a lot of Disney's classic/great works), and that voice and the attitude and the confidence and I'm not really a fan of blondes/blonds (from a purely physical perspective), but that is good.

[Miriel]

Eh, I'm stumbling along trying to figure out how to refer to myself when I'm feeling male-in-a-female-body, masculine-in-a-female-body, neutral-in-a-female-body and everything else.
It's the best term I have so far, but I'm still looking.
There is FAAB -- female assigned at birth.

[Jormengand]

There is FAAB -- female assigned at birth.

I find that AMAB and AFAB roll off the tongue far better than MAAB and FAAB, just because they don't have the double A in.

I have no idea what point I'm trying to make here. Humour me.

[SiuiS]

I would say there's more parallels with Elsa. I'm about to google around reviews and stuff, though, so I'll keep an eye out for Anna-as-trans theories.


Elsa's told by her parents that she has to hide her powers, cause people won't understand her and she'll frighten them. She uses clothes to cover herself up. When people find out and react badly, she runs away and, alone, she can dress as she pleases and use her powers, show herself off. In the end, she needs people to love her, and she can show who she really is.


Also, generally, it is a beautiful movie, it has TWO main female characters who are DIFFERENT and FULLY ROUNDED HUMANS! It's got a bunch of messy relationships, no weird sexist evil-stepmother tropes, some excellent plot twisting, the comic relief character is actually adorable and hilarious (I usually hate the comic relief), and it's just a really fun and touching film.

Olaf was the single best part of that movie, even if only barely. Olaf the snowman melts my heart.

I am still undecided on it. It hasn't compiled yet.

For one, True LoveTM is a berserk button of mine because of how glossed-over it is when there's a lot of assumptions and baggage involved.

So the instant True Love was mentioned I immediately flowered, rolled my eyes and said "it damn well better be the sister or I will flip all the tables." So when it was, I relieved but have a hard time letting go of my brooding. So now I'm mostly okay, except I'm really irked that prudish tight laced princess becomes fre and suddenly HIPS LIKE A PENDULUM IN GLORIOUS 4" PUMPS IN THE SNOW.

But the ending was okay and Olaf was remarkably sweet, so much so that I think he should be a thread mascot. So now I'm like, not sure. Great animation and fantabulous acting and vocals, though.


And I NEVER FORGAVE YOU.
I forgave you.

Aaaaah don't do that! :<
T~T


Apparently the main character from Disney's Frozen, which is allegedly based on The Snow Queen by H. C. Andersen. I'd say more, but I only know the fairy tale and everything I hear about the film indicates that it's a very loose adaptation. Which is a shame, because the original has quite a lot of female characters doing stuff, is about a non-princess girl rescuing a boy (who is not a love interest), and even includes a Sami character. Plus, talking flowers, birds and a reindeer. The film does not seem to have any of that, which displeases me. :smallmad::smalltongue:

There's a talking reindeer! Well, close enough to count I suppose.


I think this (http://misandry-mermaid.tumblr.com/post/48969803397/i-believe-in-both-feminism-and-misandry-because) is a bit of a weird definition of misandry. Thoughts?

Tenuously, it makes sense in context but is not a standalone definition. It's not incorrect but it's so highly rhetorically abstract as to be useless and outright factually wrong when used without context.



I detest the arrogance of people who refuse to clarify when their wording is legitimately confusing and they're approached in a polite manner, so I might just be biased against this person before even reading the post as yet another ****-waving pseudo-intellectual trying to wow others with the size of their e-****.

Their definition feels like a complete non sequitur, as does their characterization of equality as striving for a world where everyone can be a ***** without getting called out for it. :smallconfused: Indeed, separating the two seems quite odd, and almost like it's an excuse to only tear down and never give consideration to building up.

Every time I want to give Tumblr a chance, I run into things like this.

Well, rhetorically I see the point behind the equality statement. If equality of the sexes is 'women can do all the stuff men can do' and we accept that 'men can do bad things and it's okay' as currently true then we must also accept that equality of the sexes as such is allowing women to do bad things and get away with it, too.

You can argue the definition of equality and the degree to which 'men are allowed to so bad things and it's okay' is true. But the idea of reconfiguring societal morals from the ground up instead of just reconfiguring standing morals until you kludge them into a working enough form to be acceptable is a good one.

Myself, I have to wonder why a blog that lists inclusiveness for all has a logo that happily proclaims "forever bathing in your male tears", but hey.

[Mystic Muse]

Also, I've always seen Rarity as being a trans girl.

A lot of other people see this too. Odd that I've never seen a fic about that.

Also, can we not talk about ponythread here? I left that thread for a reason. A lot of them actually.

[Coidzor]

Well, rhetorically I see the point behind the equality statement. If equality of the sexes is 'women can do all the stuff men can do' and we accept that 'men can do bad things and it's okay' as currently true then we must also accept that equality of the sexes as such is allowing women to do bad things and get away with it, too.

It doesn't make sense as rhetoric or a rhetorical statement to me, so I'd appreciate it if you'd humor me and explain that a bit more. :smallconfused:

Show me anyone making that argument and I'd buy you a beer. :smallconfused: Which is part of why it's a non sequitur to me. No one who works for equality wants that, AFAIK, that's one thing that everyone from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to non-Wave feminists (and those who get lumped in with feminists despite rejecting the label due to perceiving the label as rejecting them along racial or socio-economic lines) seems to have universally agreed upon, but I admit that it's quite possible I've missed out on some crucial bit of backstory to this narrative. For my own sanity and peace of mind I can't give much credence to it being much of an issue without some persuasive arguments and evidence to back them up.

I perhaps should have said "mischaracterization" or something with more vitriol, but I was trying to not come down too hard in order to compensate for having been soured against the writer before reading the actual post. And I didn't really want to go to a vitriolic place anymore than it had already driven me.

Something about lumping blatant abuses of power with more passive privilege also doesn't really set right with me, but I can't quite place my finger on why, per se. It just seems like being able to walk down the street without being catcalled(and, even if one is, the narrative is much more favorable) or not having one's validity called into question if thought of as unattractive are completely different animals from people going out of their way to justify one's wrongdoing.

Granted, I was taught that equality without ending abuse and wrongdoing was a farce, so that might tie into my perspective.


You can argue the definition of equality and the degree to which 'men are allowed to so bad things and it's okay' is true. But the idea of reconfiguring societal morals from the ground up instead of just reconfiguring standing morals until you kludge them into a working enough form to be acceptable is a good one.

It does seem to beat the alternative if those are the only two options on the table, yes. It especially seems to beat trying to kludge societal morals without a real goal of where you want them to end up.


Myself, I have to wonder why a blog that lists inclusiveness for all has a logo that happily proclaims "forever bathing in your male tears", but hey.

It does seem to either be that or dismiss it out of hand, but the people who wholeheartedly agreed with it, and the one person who reblogged it and apologized for not being able to say "kill all the men!" yet would seem to offer some third viewpoint which I cannot fathom. Perhaps it's one of those examples of the blogger demonstrating sarcasm that will never be denoted as sarcasm and one is supposed to get it immediately or identify one's self as not the right kind of person or stupid in the eyes of the blogger and thus to be dismissed as less than.

*shrug*

[t209]

Really? The head of animation said that? Well I hope he got a nice round of glares from people s/he worked with. And at least your trailers indicated something of substance; literally the only trailer for Frozen I've seen (I'm in the UK for the reference) involves a . . . talking animal - I almost want to say it's a snowman, but I just don't want it to be - and a male in some form of 'comedic moment'. I didn't even know there were two siblings in it, let alone that they were both female!
So that trailer seriously put me off, and I'm a biiiiiiiig fan of Disney's animated works. But I've still heard good things about it, so I'm still going to see it anyway. Besides, the Tangled trailers played up the comedy and that wasn't a complete comedy.
That said, the lack of diversity is a problem, but as with most things, one step at a time. Yeah, it's not great that we have to go one step at a time, but acclimatising people is a good thing.
Dang it. I guess some conservative writers (RH Junior and David Weber), Hayao Miyazaki, Larry Hama's GI Joe run, and even Dredd wrote better female characters.

[Miriel]

I wrote this, which I find thread relevant: "It's permanent" (http://lucreziacontarini.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/its-permanent/)

[TaiLiu]

So, after thinking a lot during the last few years, I have decided for a breast augmentation surgery.
But I am going for the fat grafting breast augmentation option, instead of the usual saline or silicone implants, as I don't want to have an strange body inside my body.
I should have it middle February and the expected result is 50% to 70% more breast volume from what I have now (not that 50% of almost nothing is much, but it is better than the current status quo!).
I shall post about the experience here after it happens and how consistent the results are through the expected 6 months of healing before the result is considered final.

Should prove to be interesting and actually good for my self esteem.
Tell us how it goes, when the time comes!

*nests in the new thread* :smallamused:



So, I've already mentioned BF's aunt, whom I've helped occasionally with stuff, and who's got a bunch of problems, a few of which having to do with the fact she's trans.
Well, I'm worried about her, and it's nothing I can help about.
Long story short, she's not had breast augmentation surgery. She's planning to have that very, very soon; the appointment was already made.
Problem is, she's got a medical condition that is unlikely to be noticed on time during or before the surgery, but that is serious enough that any surgery has to be planned around it. But she never talked about that medical condition to the surgeon. She omitted the fact on purpose.
Her logic being that she's afraid the surgery would be cancelled, not just delayed.
She's going to undergo the surgery this month. I hope everything goes smoothly, but that's not very likely.

My opinion is that I understand the importance the procedure, but you won't get to enjoy the results if you're dead, which is alarmingly likely to happen here, so lying about your health is a terrible idea. But that's just my opinion, and I don't think it's a great idea to share it with her.

(I also suspect she might not mind death so much because her life is spiraling out of control and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. None of those who still speak to her have the means to help her. Would it be right to remind her that if she should die during the surgery, those of us who still care about her will suffer from her decision? I don't know, and there must not be a right answer to this interrogation.)
At any rate, if something goes wrong, regardless of her choice and the direct consequences on her, the surgeon will have to deal with the fallout, even though it's hardly going to be his fault.
As everyone else said, you should - as a last resort - inform the surgeon. Life is a stream; death is dried, forever and ever.

A friend dropped by tonight, and I tried on her Tudor gown for ****s and giggles.
My god this thing is HUGE! So many layers..


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080686_zps2f902ec6.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080684_zpsb3dedf24.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080682_zps0af3240e.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/LeviathanZero/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/LeviathanZero/media/Tudor/PC080683_zps85551b71.jpg.html)


Oh, my. That is quite a dress!

Petty complaining:
So, my anxiety therapist misgendered me accidentally today during our session, and while I hadn't shaved properly and was wearing unflattering frumpy guy clothes it still stung hard. And we talked a bunch about misgendering and how to handle it and it just… bleh, was stressful. And I feel pathetic for being so worked up about this and getting a blow in my self-esteem over it. :/

(Also said that I still look more like a boy than a girl, which wasn't really bad in the context cause we were talking about how me being early in transition can be a way to rationalize my fears... but still...)

I mean... the session itself went pretty well and was helpful, I just feel all cruddy right now and am angry at myself cause of it.


The advice she gave made a lot more sense than those youtube videos I have seen.
Ah, care to donate a few snippets?

So now it's out and I feel relieved.
Indeed.

I wrote this, which I find thread relevant: "It's permanent" (http://lucreziacontarini.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/its-permanent/)
Wait, you have a blog? SMEE has her own website, too - perhaps we should start some sort of LGBTAI Internet Address spoiler.

[Miriel]

Wait, you have a blog? SMEE has her own website, too - perhaps we should start some sort of LGBTAI Internet Address spoiler.
At the moment, it's more of a project. It has only two articles for new. Both of them are somewhat GSRM relevant (the first one, less so), but it's not necessarly what the blog is about.

[TaiLiu]

At the moment, it's more of a project. It has only two articles for new. Both of them are somewhat GSRM relevant (the first one, less so), but it's not necessarly what the blog is about.
Ah. What is the desired end result?

[Miriel]

Ah. What is the desired end result?
More articles on history, because that's what I do. Possibly with comparisons to the present, because I can do those on quiet Sunday evenings while drinking a hot chocolate, whereas in-depth historical research is more difficult.

Other news:
1) Quebec has passed a law allowing to have the legal sex change without any surgery!!! Yay, less bureaucracy for me :smallsmile:
2) I should get my referral tomorrow! Yay!

[TaiLiu]

More articles on history, because that's what I do. Possibly with comparisons to the present, because I can do those on quiet Sunday evenings while drinking a hot chocolate, whereas in-depth historical research is more difficult.
Neat. Keep us updated!

Other news:
1) Quebec has passed a law allowing to have the legal sex change without any surgery!!! Yay, less bureaucracy for me :smallsmile:
2) I should get my referral tomorrow! Yay!
Most excellent!

[Sabeki]

Oh yeah, Quebec! Pretty cool place to live, according to my French teacher, and now confirmed by Catelyn!

[TaiLiu]

Oh yeah, Quebec! Pretty cool place to live, according to my French teacher, and now confirmed by Catelyn!
Pun intended?

[Miriel]

Oh yeah, Quebec! Pretty cool place to live, according to my French teacher, and now confirmed by Catelyn!
Well, as always, "yes and no". I like it here, but there is much stupidity. Political stupidity especially, but I guess the details are not appropriate here. Some of said stupidity is alluded to in said blog in my other article. But I guess it's still much, much better than a large part of the US, especially for GSRM issues.

(I don't know if "Catelyn" was in reference to me, but I'm Caroline.)

[Remmirath]

It's been quite a while since I read The Snow Queen, and I hadn't even heard of Frozen until this thread, so I can't really comment on all that. I'm generally not too fond of Disney movies, though, or animated movies in general, so I suppose it would likely not be my cup of tea.


I think this (http://misandry-mermaid.tumblr.com/post/48969803397/i-believe-in-both-feminism-and-misandry-because) is a bit of a weird definition of misandry. Thoughts?

I believe that I understand what they're trying to say, but that perhaps they ought to either find another word to sum up the concept or simply explain it when it comes up. When most people hear that word, they will think of a person who hates or dislikes men simply for being men and acts accordingly, and I can't see how proudly associating oneself with that definition could help anything. It will only make one come off as prejudiced.

Yes, the things that they list are certainly not privileges that anyone should have, but I think that then going on to say that equality might mean that everybody has those as privileges is quite a leap. For one thing, I'm not convinced that's even possible; one can't use power and privilege to hurt people if everyone is truly equal. For another, the only reason many of those things are accepted is peer pressure and disdain for the rights of others, which presumably wouldn't happen in an equal society. Hopefully not, to be sure.

I'm all for holding everyone accountable for their actions, but switching over to oppressing a different group of people is not at all the way to go about it, and that is what I would assume someone meant if they were to use this person's definition of misandry in a conversation.


I like the post except where they keep misusing the word "misandry", which really invalidates everything else because it makes them sound like a bigot too.

Yeah, that's the problem, really. It makes the rest of the post rather more uncomfortable for it.


does anybody else love Khaos Comix? I think the stories are just so sweet, and It's a very good example of stories being very different from someone else's perspective.

It;s something that makes me very happy when I read it, and I wanted to spread the love! (although a lot of you probably allready know about it)

http://www.khaoskomix.com/

I keep thinking it looks interesting, but I've never actually read it. Perhaps this time.



Myself, I have to wonder why a blog that lists inclusiveness for all has a logo that happily proclaims "forever bathing in your male tears", but hey.

I found that somewhat strange, as well. Some form of humour, perhaps?


I wrote this, which I find thread relevant: "It's permanent" (http://lucreziacontarini.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/its-permanent/)

That was good. I think you made your point well.


More articles on history, because that's what I do. Possibly with comparisons to the present, because I can do those on quiet Sunday evenings while drinking a hot chocolate, whereas in-depth historical research is more difficult.

That sounds very interesting.


Other news:
1) Quebec has passed a law allowing to have the legal sex change without any surgery!!! Yay, less bureaucracy for me :smallsmile:
2) I should get my referral tomorrow! Yay!

Cool, that's great!

[KenderWizard]

Well, damn, I just looked up a scene from Frozen, this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk) (possible spoilers? I don't know who she actually is), and that's beautiful and I may have developed a slight crush on animated Idina Mendez, so guess what I'll be seeing soon?
God that animation is gorgeous (even better than a lot of Disney's classic/great works), and that voice and the attitude and the confidence and I'm not really a fan of blondes/blonds (from a purely physical perspective), but that is good.

I know!!! Oh my gosh, so much beautiful!


Olaf was the single best part of that movie, even if only barely. Olaf the snowman melts my heart.

I am still undecided on it. It hasn't compiled yet.

For one, True LoveTM is a berserk button of mine because of how glossed-over it is when there's a lot of assumptions and baggage involved.

So the instant True Love was mentioned I immediately flowered, rolled my eyes and said "it damn well better be the sister or I will flip all the tables." So when it was, I relieved but have a hard time letting go of my brooding. So now I'm mostly okay, except I'm really irked that prudish tight laced princess becomes fre and suddenly HIPS LIKE A PENDULUM IN GLORIOUS 4" PUMPS IN THE SNOW.

But the ending was okay and Olaf was remarkably sweet, so much so that I think he should be a thread mascot. So now I'm like, not sure. Great animation and fantabulous acting and vocals, though.




Yeah, I was extremely dubious about the True Love thing but I'd read a review that said "I don't want to spoil the ending, but let me just say this; this is a movie about sisterhood" so I let myself go along with it reasonably trusting that it'd be alright, and it was! Maybe you'd like it better on a second viewing, now you know there's no TWUE WUV'S PERFECT KISS.

I would have been a lot more alarmed by the freedom = sashaying in heels moment ... except that there were two princesses, and for the other one, freedom was running around the town like an idiot with a big grin.

[SiuiS]

all this stuff gets one big spoiler because otherwise the tags get wonky. So.



It doesn't make sense as rhetoric or a rhetorical statement to me, so I'd appreciate it if you'd humor me and explain that a bit more. :smallconfused:

Well, I'm probably using a looser definition of rhetoric and rhetorical. A rhetorical statement is one that's not supposed to be answered so much as provoke thought and trigger a response in you. You're supposed to read this, go "what the hell are you smoking?" And mull it over until you see the point and then choose to agree or disagree.

That's the only explanation I can think of for coming at this sideways like this, aside from terrible tunnel vision and not being aware of it. For the record, I'm dealing with this text wall;


I believe in both feminism and misandry because not only do I think women need to be empowered and have an equal footing in society, but I think men have a lot of privileges that NO ONE should have, not even oppressed groups. Being able to sexually assault people and not be held accountable or punished, being glorified for taking advantage of others, using power and privilege to hurt and mock those that lack power to defend themselves, being treated like you’re immune to criticism and fault, etc. Saying women should have equality potentially implies women should have the right to do all those things too. No human deserves to have any of those privileges, and to me, misandry is the reduction of some of those harmful and dangerous privileges for men while feminism helps empower women to have a higher value in society. Misandry means holding men accountable for the past and current atrocities they have commited/are committing and making sure that pattern can not continue, no matter how “equal” women seem to be.


Show me anyone making that argument and I'd buy you a beer.

Well, I could show you the blog, but... :smalltongue:

Okay. More seriously this is a compile issue. I know for a fact that some people do, indeed, think "yes, I am doing [bad thing], but you can do [bad thing] too if you want, so it's cool" is a valid stance to have. They don't recognize or accept the baggage in the word "bad" of bad thing; they don't work objectively. It's similar to the "it's only illegal if you get caught" line of thought.

Additionally, there are those for whom feminism means reversal. Feminism = women on top, men on bottom. Feminism means women get to do bad things without getting in trouble. They get this right because they can say "well they do bad thing, I can do it too!". You also have a culture that views being a Man as good, and you get women who try to be a Man, in all ways social and personality. And since there is no definition of Man that is not a social one, you get women taking up the social mantle of Men, being arrogant jerks who need to establish Their Alpha and denigrate other Men and be rude jerks.

This blog post cuts through the (possible) homeostasis of people who do not self-evaluate, and if they do, do not judge themselves objectively. It takes a roundabout method and says "this is wrong. It does not matter if others do it; they are wrong too. Stop it universally".

There is a book, somewhere, called... What? The Ethical Slut? The basis of the book is that a sex positive life is fine, slur shaming is bad, and go ahead and enjoy some carnality. But it does this by purposefully stopping you up with misuse of the word slut based on their own, purposefully at-odds-with-common-sense understanding. It's reclaiming, rebranding, "taking back". They do it so you can proudly say "I am a slut!" And when people look at you funny or question you, you can 'correct' them with your new mnemonic. It's viral, basically.

That's what I'm seeing here. This is designed to make it so someone can say happily, "I am a misandrist!"
'Oh that's terrible! You're a bad person !'
"Why is that?"
'Because you're a misandrist!'
"Ah, but do you know what that means?"

And after the conversation the 'misandrist' gets to feel arrogantly happy about enlightening the poor sod who jumped on a buzzword without thinking it through first.

It just so happens, unfortunately, that we HAVE thought it through and find this to be rather silly.



Something about lumping blatant abuses of power with more passive privilege also doesn't really set right with me, but I can't quite place my finger on why, per se.

Blatant abuse of power is an action you take. Benefitting from privilege is the actions others take toward you. You punish abuse of power, you correct privilege. Limping them together sounds an awful lot like abusing others because of accidents of birth... Which is kinda what feminism is all about stoppingn, what with women not needing to be second class because they happen to have been born Not Men.


Granted, I was taught that equality without ending abuse and wrongdoing was a farce, so that might tie into my perspective.


And I hope you pass that on. :smallsmile:
The people I've seen, though. So many are conditioned not to think. Not to pry. It's terrible.



It does seem to beat the alternative if those are the only two options on the table, yes. It especially seems to beat trying to kludge societal morals without a real goal of where you want them to end up.


Aye. The real answer is to make decisions as to what is good in life, study how to achieve them, and try to be decent people in the meantime. But that's so abstract as to be useless, and I've never seen an application that could be separated from tyranny. Iunno.



It does seem to either be that or dismiss it out of hand, but the people who wholeheartedly agreed with it, and the one person who reblogged it and apologized for not being able to say "kill all the men!" yet would seem to offer some third viewpoint which I cannot fathom. Perhaps it's one of those examples of the blogger demonstrating sarcasm that will never be denoted as sarcasm and one is supposed to get it immediately or identify one's self as not the right kind of person or stupid in the eyes of the blogger and thus to be dismissed as less than.

*shrug*

Couldn't tell you.



I believe that I understand what they're trying to say, but that perhaps they ought to either find another word to sum up the concept or simply explain it when it comes up. When most people hear that word, they will think of a person who hates or dislikes men simply for being men and acts accordingly, and I can't see how proudly associating oneself with that definition could help anything. It will only make one come off as prejudiced.


Yes. It seems more a ticket to feeling like a martyr and religion there they just don't understand than anything else.


Yes, the things that they list are certainly not privileges that anyone should have, but I think that then going on to say that equality might mean that everybody has those as privileges is quite a leap.

My problem with the Internet in sum:
This is perfectly 100% logical. Logic is not infallible and often fails to account for the illogical, still rational, inertia of things. Yes, it's logical. But it's also stupid. That will never happen as long as people are encouraged to think and care. That's what happened when someone legislates equality, not when people are equal.


For one thing, I'm not convinced that's even possible; one can't use power and privilege to hurt people if everyone is truly equal. For another, the only reason many of those things are accepted is peer pressure and disdain for the rights of others, which presumably wouldn't happen in an equal society. Hopefully not, to be sure.

I dunno. Take a place with no laws. Murder is acceptable. You have the privilege of murdering people and it's cool. They have that privilege too though, so it's cool right?




Yeah, I was extremely dubious about the True Love thing but I'd read a review that said "I don't want to spoil the ending, but let me just say this; this is a movie about sisterhood" so I let myself go along with it reasonably trusting that it'd be alright, and it was! Maybe you'd like it better on a second viewing, now you know there's no TWUE WUV'S PERFECT KISS.

Maybe. I can't get it to compile, may have to try.

Haha. Sashay~


I would have been a lot more alarmed by the freedom = sashaying in heels moment ... except that there were two princesses, and for the other one, freedom was running around the town like an idiot with a big grin.


Ah. Maybe I'm just inured to it; that's what Braz does whenever we go anywhere. Dorks being dorky is my standard understanding of the world.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/097/e/8/luna__s_gonna_loon_by_rainbowcrash123-d4vatxn.png

[Zorg]

But yeah, "man in a woman's body" and "woman in a man's body" is just old cissexist crap.

I don't particularly appreciate being told part of my identity is cissexist crap.

and to segue into a longer rant not directed at anyone in particular - this sort of thing is why I don't have much to do with the LGBT+ community outsdie this thread. I mean we're proclaiming we're "all inclusive" but how many times have I been shamed for being traditionally femme (hur, makeup is evul, death to traditional gender roles, if you're trans and want to be pretty you're internalising cissexism and misogyny!), been made to feel like I'm wrong for talking about how I'm upset I never got to wear a pretty dress for my 16th birthday, or to graduation, or that I had to hide away learning to walk in heels rather than have fun doing it. Made to feel like I'm a traitor or not properly trans/bi/feminist for wanting to be pretty and cute. When media is discussed and everyone homes in on how problematic it is that they're showing things I've always dreamt of having - going from my quiet, sullen existence to being a beautiful vibrant princess is the stuff my dreams were made of, yet seein ghtat is "problematic". Yes, I know the problem is that that is the only story given, but it is so hard to be in the LGBT+ / feminist culture when everything seems to be attacking your identity for being to blame.
I have had to live my whole ****ing life being a victim of the patriarchy and transphobia, so don't go telling me what I feel is wrong. Yes, I want to have a partner who'll look after me; yes, the idea of wearing dresses, doing my makeup and being a housewife appeals to me; and, yes, I sometimes do feel like a woman in a man's body.
But you know what? That's me and if someone's experience of being Trans, or a lesbian, or a woman is different I don't care so long as they are living that way willingly. And I've been in a relationship where I was abused and raped, so I ****ing know the difference between being happily not wearing the pants and the world ****ing me over.

Labels should be descriptive, not proscriptive, and if someone is comfortable with one and you don't like it - go **** yourself.

[SiuiS]

I don't particularly appreciate being told part of my identity is cissexist crap.

I'm sorry Zorg, and I do hope I haven't contributed to that feeling.

http://static2.fjcdn.com/comments/MLP+hug+thread+_58157a2fd99af72f760b0427e4094aa5.j pg

[Skeppio]

*snip*

I pretty much completely agree. It's why I don't post here much, or do much to be a part of the LGBTA+ community in general. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in that lonely gap between "people who don't understand/approve of LGBTA+" and "die cis scum". The middle ground seems to be so tiny and unpopulated that it's no wonder I always end up as a lonely, bitter husk that pushes people away. :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

Y'know, not that anyone gives a crap what I'm feeling or anything. Easier to just dismiss me as "mean ol' Skep hates everyone".

[The Succubus]

I think this is why some people are afraid of getting to know LGBT folks; if it's a proverbial minefield for actual LGBTers, there's a chance that any cishetero folks simply asking an honest question or making a mistake are likely to get their heads chewed off.

A thought did occur to me as I was typing this - perhaps feminism is a little too tightly bound to transgender issues? Feminists tend to have a very broad view about what constitutes womanhood; the housewife role is every bit as fine as the high powered businesses woman role *as long as it is the individual woman's choice to do that*. Once a feminist starts accusing another feminist of not being feminine enough, then they're not really any better than any other sort of bigot. Case in point - terfs. I really hate terfs because they don't encourage women to be the best they can be, like a true feminist should, instead they practice bigotry beneath an extremely distasteful veneer of hypocrisy.

I apologize if I've got some of my terminology wrong or made my points a little crudely. Feminism is complicated.

[SiuiS]

I think this is why some people are afraid of getting to know LGBT folks; if it's a proverbial minefield for actual LGBTers, there's a chance that any cishetero folks simply asking an honest question or making a mistake are likely to get their heads chewed off.

A thought did occur to me as I was typing this - perhaps feminism is a little too tightly bound to transgender issues? Feminists tend to have a very broad view about what constitutes womanhood; the housewife role is every bit as fine as the high powered businesses woman role *as long as it is the individual woman's choice to do that*. Once a feminist starts accusing another feminist of not being feminine enough, then they're not really any better than any other sort of bigot. Case in point - terfs. I really hate terfs because they don't encourage women to be the best they can be, like a true feminist should, instead they practice bigotry beneath an extremely distasteful veneer of hypocrisy.

I apologize if I've got some of my terminology wrong or made my points a little crudely. Feminism is complicated.

Complication doesn't even begin to cover the territory. Quote frankly, "Feminism" is such a broad topic which covers so many points that perfectly reasonable and actionable solutions to some issues actively exacerbate other issues. That's why it's still in flux, to this day.

[Kittenwolf]

I don't particularly appreciate being told part of my identity is cissexist crap.

and to segue into a longer rant not directed at anyone in particular - this sort of thing is why I don't have much to do with the LGBT+ community outsdie this thread. I mean we're proclaiming we're "all inclusive" but how many times have I been shamed for being traditionally femme (hur, makeup is evul, death to traditional gender roles, if you're trans and want to be pretty you're internalising cissexism and misogyny!), been made to feel like I'm wrong for talking about how I'm upset I never got to wear a pretty dress for my 16th birthday, or to graduation, or that I had to hide away learning to walk in heels rather than have fun doing it. Made to feel like I'm a traitor or not properly trans/bi/feminist for wanting to be pretty and cute. When media is discussed and everyone homes in on how problematic it is that they're showing things I've always dreamt of having - going from my quiet, sullen existence to being a beautiful vibrant princess is the stuff my dreams were made of, yet seein ghtat is "problematic". Yes, I know the problem is that that is the only story given, but it is so hard to be in the LGBT+ / feminist culture when everything seems to be attacking your identity for being to blame.
I have had to live my whole ****ing life being a victim of the patriarchy and transphobia, so don't go telling me what I feel is wrong. Yes, I want to have a partner who'll look after me; yes, the idea of wearing dresses, doing my makeup and being a housewife appeals to me; and, yes, I sometimes do feel like a woman in a man's body.
But you know what? That's me and if someone's experience of being Trans, or a lesbian, or a woman is different I don't care so long as they are living that way willingly. And I've been in a relationship where I was abused and raped, so I ****ing know the difference between being happily not wearing the pants and the world ****ing me over.

Labels should be descriptive, not proscriptive, and if someone is comfortable with one and you don't like it - go **** yourself.

AMEN SISTER!
Just because one person/group of people think that labels don't matter, or XYZ are bad or meaningless or whatever else doesn't mean there aren't other people who they do have meaning for.

As a random example, a really good friend of mine has trouble sometimes understanding my gender identity, not out of stupidity or closed minded-ness or anything, but because the concept of Gender identity simply has no meaning to her.
She just doesn't understand how their gender identity is important to other people or how it makes a difference in how they might behave, or how they associate things with one identity or another. Associating traits or jobs or roles or anything with one gender or another just doesn't fit into her head.

But, for all that she doesn't understand it herself, she *does* understand that it has meaning for *other* people, and wouldn't dream of telling people that gender identity is meaningless full stop just because it is to her.

I'm completely with you on loving pretty things and dresses and heels and pink and jewelry and being disappointed at not having had a Deb ball/dress and all those kinds of things. Finally admitting that I liked those things was one of the things that led me to working out that I'm genderfluid.

A lot of my friends think I'm nuts for liking heels (and being able to walk in them) and when I'm in girl headspace I'm much more stereotypically girly in a lot of ways/interests than most of my female identifying friends (though I do know one girl who beats me at that, although she seems to think I might beat her once I'm fully able to present and go out as a girl).

As far as I'm concerned if you're looking at these things and going "I want/like that for me" and not "That is what I'm supposed to like because I'm a girl so therefore I have no choice", then to hell with anyone who thinks that's unempowering or anti-feminist or whatever else says.

It takes a lot more guts to stand up to both the misogynists and anti-feminine feminists and say "I like being feminine, for *me*" than it does to stand up to the misogynists only and reject it outright.

*Offers Big Hugs, with a side order of cake-of-doom and cajun pepper chocolate cookies*

[Delusion]

I wrote this, which I find thread relevant: "It's permanent" (http://lucreziacontarini.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/its-permanent/)

Very nice article and every word of it is so true. ^^

[Mina Kobold]

I pretty much completely agree. It's why I don't post here much, or do much to be a part of the LGBTA+ community in general. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in that lonely gap between "people who don't understand/approve of LGBTA+" and "die cis scum". The middle ground seems to be so tiny and unpopulated that it's no wonder I always end up as a lonely, bitter husk that pushes people away. :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

Y'know, not that anyone gives a crap what I'm feeling or anything. Easier to just dismiss me as "mean ol' Skep hates everyone".

I don't think you're mean, hating or ol' at all! You have all the right to be distressed if you can't find many people between hating one side or hating the other. That does not sound very fun at all. >_<

If I've ever said anything that was hateful towards all cis people or the traits of common stereotypes themselves, I'm really really sorry. I generally will complain about high heels and house-wife roles in a lot of media, but I really do not wish to complain about either one existing. Just that it makes no sense for Wonder Woman or Batwoman to wear heels while chasing supervillains across rooftops or for all women in a story to be the same personality (unless that's a part of the plot, but still). Which is a problem no matter the personality, too many stories are either reinforcing an old idea of All Women or saying that All Women cannot be like that idea at all instead. Which is bad, since it doesn't fit a lot of people and ends up hurting great people. I really really don't want to make the All Women type to exist at all, let alone be changed around so much it hurts people I love whether they fit or not. m(_ _)m

*Offers Kobold hug offers for Zorg, Skeppio and everybody else wanting one.*

EDIT: Oh, and anyone saying that make-up is bad needs to understand that their argument is invalid by way of it making this (http://jezebel.com/this-eye-makeup-art-is-blowing-my-mind-1476154905) possible. so want to be able to do that. @_@

[Astrella]

First full laser bombardment on my face went well~ I did almost throw up again, but I think I just don't handle the smell of burnt hair well. >.> Also didn't apply enough numbing cream apparently, and it was really weird how some places barely felt like anything and all and other were *ouch*. (Upper lip barely hurt at all and apparently that's a really bad spot.) Also the laser lady is very nice and friendly. :smallsmile:

[The Succubus]

Laser Girl would make a great name for a super heroine. Also, this flu is making my brain silly.

[Akowrules]

Yay! New thread!!! Can't read or type much at the moment, since I'm in class. I wish you all the best, and hugs for all who need them! And for those who may not need them, because I think everyone needs and deserves them! :smallbiggrin: I wish you all a splendid day!

[Delusion]

Laser Girl would make a great name for a super heroine. Also, this flu is making my brain silly.

Silly Succubus, demon's don't get sick.

Hugs?

[CurlyKitGirl]

First full laser bombardment on my face went well~ I did almost throw up again, but I think I just don't handle the smell of burnt hair well. >.> Also didn't apply enough numbing cream apparently, and it was really weird how some places barely felt like anything and all and other were *ouch*. (Upper lip barely hurt at all and apparently that's a really bad spot.) Also the laser lady is very nice and friendly. :smallsmile:

Probably asking an idiotic question, but I don't care: was this just normal hair-killing-laser stuff, preparation to make your body reflect your gender or something else?
Also, was it expensive? Did it take a long time? *is contemplating things*

re: LGBTetc. terminology: another one chiming in to agree about being nervous about joining an LGBTetc. community because there are just so many potential minefields when it comes to terminology and how people view themselves.
I've been wanting to post in this thread series for a while, but I got all hung up on this classification/terminology thing and the fear of inadvertently insulting someone by not knowing which words they like, don't and why. Also I kind of wanted to see if there was anything 'particular' I fit into. And yes, there kind of is.
But ultimately I'm me and I don't fit precisely into anything, and I'm cool with that. Labels aren't very useful when it comes to me and my perception of things anyway; a person is a person and I'll like them or not depending on my opinion of them. Everything else is just trying not to offend people, which is difficult.

re: femininity and feminism: feminism and other equality movements can sometimes be overreactive and condemn things that, to them, represent what they're trying to move away from. But for me, equal opportunity means just that: you want to be a housewifehusband and be looked after? Cool, I hope you don't run into too many spiders (I'm not joking or implying anything, I can't stand those creepy little beasts), have fun, kick some butt and remember that you are just as important as the rest of your family, so take some time off now and then. You want to be a businesswoman/man? Cool, I hope you don't run into too many idiots, have fun, kick some butt and remember that you're just as important as you're work, so take some time off now and then.
You've just worked up the courage to come out/tell someone that you're trans*/whatever? Cool, I'm glad you were able to tell me, thanks for your trust. If you need to talk to someone or want help, you know where I am. Do you want to talk more now or shall we do something else?

I personally find some feminine/female stuff confusing, but I'm hardly going to condemn people for wearing what they do. Well, let's be honest, if you're caking things on so thick I can see the powder from several feet away I'm going to think things like 'She layered on way too much makeup, she looks orange', and I'll probably think snarky things about people wearing clothes that don't suit them. I don't mean just the 'belt and two napkins' or the 'your trousers are so low I can see half your boxers and you waddle like a penguin' type of not suiting either, I mean clothes that don't show themselves off to their best advantage, or anything they obviously seem uncomfortable in.
That's why I don't really wear skirts or high heels or make up all that often; if I don't feel comfortable and confident in it there's no point in wearing it because everyone will be able to sense that. If I'm comfortable in something I can rock it, if I'm not then some of that discomfort will show through and I won't look well put together.
That's why I'm currently working up the courage to go for shorter and either blue, purple or red hair. I'm almost certain I'll be able to rock it, just one step to go.
Long ramble short, if you're happy as you are, that's amazing.

[Mono Vertigo]

On that tumblr link about misandry:
Here's my feelings about it: [contains cartoon violence, strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)] (http://xkcd.com/169/)

Okay, in more words now.
The feeling might be legitimate, but purposefully changing the definition of a word - a word made to describe a negative concept, at that - is silly. It's not even reclamation, it's confusing redefinition.
I could claim to be racist and say pretend I don't mean it to say I'm judging people according to their skin colour, that's not going to be okay. It's just hindering communication. It's not clever or brave or cute.
Also, misandry - following the actual definition of misandry - is still not great. No, it's not great setting a precedent of people who are acceptable targets because of an organ they happen to be born with. Plus, there are many women who are misogynist jerks and contribute to the oppression of their peers, and the fact they have or want to have a vagina doesn't make it better, either. Some of my best friends relatives are misogynistic women! Sure would be easier if all men, and only men, were privileged misogynistic jerks, but life's more complicated than that.

@Zorg: I feel I must apologize here for some of my discourse here. I've complained a lot about make-up and dresses, and may not have made it clear that what sucks about them is having to wear them. Someone likes it, great. You like being stereotypically girly? Go ahead, that's awesome, you'll rock the style better than I do and enjoy it and that's what matters. Different strokes for different people. I just don't want to be restricted from life choices that have nothing to do with fashion or aesthetics because I'm not femme.

[Astrella]

Probably asking an idiotic question, but I don't care: was this just normal hair-killing-laser stuff, preparation to make your body reflect your gender or something else?
Also, was it expensive? Did it take a long time? *is contemplating things*

Getting rid of facial hair, it's a big source of dysphoria for me. (I'm a trans woman.) I get mine done at the hospital, which is cheaper and handled better than in a random beauty salon, but I'm still paying 125 euros. (I would imagine not having a full face of facial hair to get rid of would make it quite a bit cheaper though.) The session itself took about 30 minutes, but that's with preparation and aftercare, so maybe 15 minutes for the lasering itself? Amount of sessions is usually 6-8 I've been told, though it varies of course.

[razovor]

Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

[Chess435]

Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

*hugs tightly*

We're here for you whenever you need us. :smallsmile:

[Mono Vertigo]

Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

:smallfrown: *hugs*

[Delusion]

Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

*hugs* I have had the same today, though mine has a certian physical reason (went to sleep waaaayyyy too late last night).

[CurlyKitGirl]

Getting rid of facial hair, it's a big source of dysphoria for me. (I'm a trans woman.) I get mine done at the hospital, which is cheaper and handled better than in a random beauty salon, but I'm still paying 125 euros. (I would imagine not having a full face of facial hair to get rid of would make it quite a bit cheaper though.) The session itself took about 30 minutes, but that's with preparation and aftercare, so maybe 15 minutes for the lasering itself? Amount of sessions is usually 6-8 I've been told, though it varies of course.

I hear you there. I have facial hair due to PCOS and it's a pain and kind of gross because I don't like how it looks on me. Granted it's not the same thing, but if I don't like my facial hair I can't imagine what it would be like for a trans woman.
Still, you're getting lazored and I assume the pain is worth it in the long run; and I get Vaniqua, which kind of works. Still, might look into getting laser treatment anyway. There's a palce nearby that does massive discounts after Christmas.


Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

*hugs*
Hope you feel better soon.

[Lentrax]

Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

*hugs*

Get better. Let us know if there is anything else we can do.

[Astrella]

Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

*hugs*

Dysphoria isn't fun, especially not when it messes with other things too. I hope it passes soon.


I hear you there. I have facial hair due to PCOS and it's a pain and kind of gross because I don't like how it looks on me. Granted it's not the same thing, but if I don't like my facial hair I can't imagine what it would be like for a trans woman.
Still, you're getting lazored and I assume the pain is worth it in the long run; and I get Vaniqua, which kind of works. Still, might look into getting laser treatment anyway. There's a palce nearby that does massive discounts after Christmas.

The pain isn't that bad if you use a numbing cream, and it's mostly just the repeatedness of it that gets a bit much. Hope you get good results from laser if you decide to go for it. :smallsmile:

[Mina Kobold]

First full laser bombardment on my face went well~ I did almost throw up again, but I think I just don't handle the smell of burnt hair well. >.> Also didn't apply enough numbing cream apparently, and it was really weird how some places barely felt like anything and all and other were *ouch*. (Upper lip barely hurt at all and apparently that's a really bad spot.) Also the laser lady is very nice and friendly. :smallsmile:

Congrats! On getting laser-bombarded, not on the smell of burnt hair or ouch. ^_^

Laser Lady is a wonderful description of a person, sounds very exciting. :3


Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

*Hugs from Victorian Kobland*

Duysphoria is never fun, but that sounds like an especially awful time. I hope things seem much less boring and hopeless soon. :smallsmile:


A personal update; apparently just going to a Trans-specific meeting at LGBT Danmark cheers me up, even though the meeting itself was cancelled. Kind of bitter-sweet as it's in the middle of a pedestrian street with many many clothing stores (So close, yet I can't just buy them. T_T), but it did a lot to make me feel less stressed. I'm probably just odd. ^_^'

[Miriel]

I got my referral letter!!! :smallbiggrin:

(I'll scan it later, because conservation. If anyone wants to know what these things look like, I could share. Without names and stuff, obviously.)

[Delusion]

I got my referral letter!!! :smallbiggrin:

(I'll scan it later, because conservation. If anyone wants to know what these things look like, I could share. Without names and stuff, obviously.)

That is awesome. What was the referal for though? :P
HRT?

[Lentrax]

I got my referral letter!!! :smallbiggrin:

(I'll scan it later, because conservation. If anyone wants to know what these things look like, I could share. Without names and stuff, obviously.)

Good news, everybody!
(This concludes the Farnsworth portion of Lentrax's day. He is tired and is going to bed. Good night all. *cue Taps*)

[Jormengand]

Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

*Hugs*

Stay strong. This is tough, but cherubs you are tougher. Right?

It sucks, but there are things you can do to alleviate the suckiness. I have an anti-dysphoria hat, for example. Why a hat? God knows. But it's a hat that takes away the pain. Because I look pretty cool in the hat.

Just find something that makes you happy, and it might help. Playing Tetris is also recommended, because you're too busy being peed off by the stupid blocks not lining up properly to care about who you are at the moment, and by the end you'll have forgotten why you were originally upset in the first place. And you'll have a cool hat.

Also, spell check did not think "Dysphoria" was a word. Recommended "Phosphorous." I told it off.

Hope my ramblings cheer you up, at least.

[noparlpf]

First full laser bombardment on my face went well~ I did almost throw up again, but I think I just don't handle the smell of burnt hair well. >.> Also didn't apply enough numbing cream apparently, and it was really weird how some places barely felt like anything and all and other were *ouch*. (Upper lip barely hurt at all and apparently that's a really bad spot.) Also the laser lady is very nice and friendly. :smallsmile:

Congrats. And on the bright side, the side-effects are temporary, but now the hair is too.


I got my referral letter!!! :smallbiggrin:

(I'll scan it later, because conservation. If anyone wants to know what these things look like, I could share. Without names and stuff, obviously.)

Cool beans.

------------

"Homophobia: The fear that another man will treat you like you treat women." (https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1467185_691756624190806_425241527_n.jpg) (A picture.)

[Miriel]

That is awesome. What was the referal for though? :P
HRT?
Yes. And name change, I guess.

[Remmirath]

My problem with the Internet in sum:
This is perfectly 100% logical. Logic is not infallible and often fails to account for the illogical, still rational, inertia of things. Yes, it's logical. But it's also stupid. That will never happen as long as people are encouraged to think and care. That's what happened when someone legislates equality, not when people are equal.

Indeed.


I dunno. Take a place with no laws. Murder is acceptable. You have the privilege of murdering people and it's cool. They have that privilege too though, so it's cool right?

Good point. I suppose the assumption, then, is that everybody will simply be encouraged to manipulate and abuse everyone else, which certainly doesn't seem a reasonable societal expectation (although several that we currently have don't either, so that doesn't mean much).



Just because one person/group of people think that labels don't matter, or XYZ are bad or meaningless or whatever else doesn't mean there aren't other people who they do have meaning for.

As a random example, a really good friend of mine has trouble sometimes understanding my gender identity, not out of stupidity or closed minded-ness or anything, but because the concept of Gender identity simply has no meaning to her.
She just doesn't understand how their gender identity is important to other people or how it makes a difference in how they might behave, or how they associate things with one identity or another. Associating traits or jobs or roles or anything with one gender or another just doesn't fit into her head.

But, for all that she doesn't understand it herself, she *does* understand that it has meaning for *other* people, and wouldn't dream of telling people that gender identity is meaningless full stop just because it is to her.

Indeed. I'm the same way as your friend about that. Despite trying often I can't manage to wrap my mind around gender in a way that makes any sense to me, but I can tell that it's quite important to other people and would certainly not tell anyone otherwise. I just file it as one of those things that I don't get, but lots of other people care a lot about. It's a fairly long list.


As far as I'm concerned if you're looking at these things and going "I want/like that for me" and not "That is what I'm supposed to like because I'm a girl so therefore I have no choice", then to hell with anyone who thinks that's unempowering or anti-feminist or whatever else says.

That's the important distinction that people seem to often miss. There's not a thing wrong with liking anything that happens to be stereotypically feminine or masculine -- regardless of whether the person is male or female -- but the problem is when people are told that they ought to like those things, because they are male or female.


First full laser bombardment on my face went well~ I did almost throw up again, but I think I just don't handle the smell of burnt hair well. >.> Also didn't apply enough numbing cream apparently, and it was really weird how some places barely felt like anything and all and other were *ouch*. (Upper lip barely hurt at all and apparently that's a really bad spot.) Also the laser lady is very nice and friendly. :smallsmile:

Cool! I'm glad that's going well.


Laser Girl would make a great name for a super heroine. Also, this flu is making my brain silly.

I hope you feel better soon.



re: femininity and feminism: feminism and other equality movements can sometimes be overreactive and condemn things that, to them, represent what they're trying to move away from.

Yeah, I think that's where a lot of this comes from. People get upset (reasonably enough) about being told that they ought to like certain things that they don't necessarily like, and then they sometimes turn that around and start saying that nobody should like them.

Me, I'll always object if somebody tells me that I ought to like wearing makeup or dresses or fancy shoes, or pink and frilly things, or all those other things that are often associated with girls that I've never liked, but I'll also object if somebody tells someone else that they shouldn't like them. People can like what they like. It's all cool.


Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

Not much good with hugs, but I hope you feel better soon.


I got my referral letter!!! :smallbiggrin:

(I'll scan it later, because conservation. If anyone wants to know what these things look like, I could share. Without names and stuff, obviously.)

That's great!

[Proud Tortoise]

Welcome, new members!


Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

*Hugs*

Also, I've been meaning to compliment Zorg on her new avatar; it is pretty much the best.

[TaiLiu]

Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.
All internet hugs are fifty percent off today!

I got my referral letter!!! :smallbiggrin:

(I'll scan it later, because conservation. If anyone wants to know what these things look like, I could share. Without names and stuff, obviously.)
Hooray! And, yes - please do.

Also, spell check did not think "Dysphoria" was a word. Recommended "Phosphorous." I told it off.
That part's a pain, yes.

Also, I've been meaning to compliment Zorg on her new avatar; it is pretty much the best.
Hm, do you know what it is?

[Sabeki]

Can I have some hugs?
*Hugs tightly.*


I got my referral letter!!! :smallbiggrin:

(I'll scan it later, because conservation. If anyone wants to know what these things look like, I could share. Without names and stuff, obviously.)

Yaaaaayyyyy!!!!!

@ almost everything else: WORDS WORDS WORDS THAT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT! FEMINISM AND STUFF WE LIKE TO DISCUSS ABOUT!!! BIG 'OL WALL OF WOOOORRRRDSSSS!!!!!!!! :smalltongue:

[Kajhera]

My ex-boyfriend came out on Facebook, confusingly enough he took the same name as my current significant other ... x) Ah well, it's a good name, confusion aside. He's started HRT and seems to be taking college by storm. Really glad he's doing well, I didn't realize this was part of what was wrong at the time but have worried for him, knowing he's found a way to fix something that was wrong makes me ... actually slightly jealous, but mostly pleased.

Lead to conversations with significant other on gender ... hadn't been exposed to trans* circles much before I started looking into it and has enough parallel experiences to wonder if they're actually female (presumed they would be so at a youthful age, would take the 'magic swap to a cis female body' option in a heartbeat) ... they're quite wary of the prospect though ... not completely sure how to help with this, basically said try exploring what helps them feel right, and shouldn't feel they have to do anything even if they are secretly a girl.

... though anything that can make them happier is good in my book.

[Proud Tortoise]

Hm, do you know what it is?

Nope, I like it anyway.

[Selpharia]

Hi there everyone!

First off, *hugs* for razovor and anyone else in need of some who I missed. I wanted to agree with Zorg; I love dresses and all the frills and fripperies of traditonal femininity, and it does grate when people think of them as somehow "lesser."

@Lena I'm glad your laser went well. You're lucky, too; my upper lip always hurts a bunch when I get it lasered.



Just found out that my friend's parents basically disowned her when she came out as trans. This was a while ago for her, and she's managed (really well actually, many of the people at our university are coasting on their parents, or sat the very least relying on them for other non-monetary things, and to do without that here is amazing), but she's just such a kind and wonderful person that it fills me with boiling rage that she got stuck related to people who would do that. And she's still willing to try to extend an olive branch, even after all that. It's not fair at all; I have no particular talent or ability and am not a good person at all, and I get parents who are not bad most of the time, and she's amazing and stuck with abysmal "parents." Really, if the world were at all just, I'd be in her place.

I'm not even really sure if/how to help and support her; I can't really understand from experience what it's like and I don't want to do or say something stupid.



~Laura

[TaiLiu]

Nope, I like it anyway.
Ah, I see.

Just found out that my friend's parents basically disowned her when she came out as trans. This was a while ago for her, and she's managed (really well actually, many of the people at our university are coasting on their parents, or sat the very least relying on them for other non-monetary things, and to do without that here is amazing), but she's just such a kind and wonderful person that it fills me with boiling rage that she got stuck related to people who would do that. And she's still willing to try to extend an olive branch, even after all that. It's not fair at all; I have no particular talent or ability and am not a good person at all, and I get parents who are not bad most of the time, and she's amazing and stuck with abysmal "parents." Really, if the world were at all just, I'd be in her place.

I'm not even really sure if/how to help and support her; I can't really understand from experience what it's like and I don't want to do or say something stupid.
Indeed.

[Graustein]

Wow, lots of helpful advice, thanks guys (Also a huge delay on my part in actually replying to it all, sorry!)! Some of it, I already suspected, like the general-precautions-stuff, but it's nice to hear it from other people because that way I know I'm not being paranoid (or not paranoid enough). Thanks!


I also live in a big, queer-friendly city and have anxiety issues and zero street smarts, if that helps. I am also presenting almost full time as female (6 days a week) without hormones.

I don't know about what is needed to "keep safe", but I do know about not being paralized by fear, which is much more important. "Safe" or not, you will need to be able to buy groceries without being afraid.

The trick is: just do it, step by step. You mention only nail polish and makeup: really, to be honest, most people on the street won't notice or care, and certainly won't identify you as a dangerous "tranny" to be killed if you're otherwise presenting as male. So go out, notice how you didn't get assaulted, go back home and celebrate. After that, if you want, maybe just go out with feminine clothes under masculine ones, or with slightly feminine clothing that pass as androgynous, etc. This is just so you feel you are sort of presenting as female, even though others won't notice it enough to attack you at random.

I promise you you probably won't be kidnapped or raped or mugged or thrown of a bridge. And every time nothing be happens will be additional conditionning for you, which means you might have the strength to go out even more boldly as female the next time. It's in effect a DIY cognitive behavioral therapy -- if you went to a psychologist, it's likely they would tell you to do exactly that.

This is really really helpful to hear, thank you! I expect I will probably be pleasantly surprised by peoples' reactions, but the first step is scary. I have some lovely friends who help me out, and I've already begun wearing nail polish in public, but I still get the urge to shove my hands in my pockets sometimes.


Anyway. Are you planning to transition?

At this point I don't know. I don't even know which label I'd prefer to apply to myself yet. Am I genderqueer? Trans? A cis dude who just wants to look cute and girly without being scared of being judged for it? No idea. Little bit of dysphoria, sometimes, but usually it's something that comes up when I'm already feeling really down, not something that bothers me when I'm in a good place.


For makeup: What kind of tips do you want? Just hide the beard, or something more elaborate?

In any case, there are many tutorials on Youtube, including ones for and by trans girls who are, in all likelihood, relative beginners themselves talking to absolute beginners.
Hiding the beard is a huge thing, I'm white and have dark hair so I never look hairless on my chin which I hate. My face is a constant battle between my hatred for shaving and my hatred for facial hair. I also do want just general makeup stuff as well.



Being a fellow Australian I can say that Sydney is in my experience is pretty much fine. Like, I've had a variety of minor issues here and there but what I found easiest was to go out with friends to places I know well as that gives you a safe layer of familiarity to cover the anxiety.

I don't really "go out" go out, I tend to do like shopping / dinner / movie / coffee but it can be pretty tough. Sticking to high traffic areas can be a plus as despite there being lots of people about it means there are too many people for you to stand out (or feel like you are).
But really, for me understanding being with you at first friends and families are a big plus.




I like Lisa Eldrige's videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/lisaeldridgedotcom/videos) myself for general makeup stuff (go to the beginning of her video list for basics - she really explains what everything's for in great detail IMO. Tina de Wert (http://www.youtube.com/user/TinaDeWert/videos) has far less videos, but they are trans specific.

For buying make-up, I mostly shop from Target or Woolies to be honest, though going somewhere like DJs or Myer would allow you to get assistance from the clerks though that is a more anxiety inducing prospect I know. That said I'm yet to have any issue with any staff in any store - far more problems with customers when I'm working.

Thank you for this! I already know the queer areas in my city so I hang out there sometimes. I'm doing it tomorrow in fact, with some sparkly purple nail polish my friend bought me.

As for buying makeup... that's one of the worst things. I have bought dresses before at shops in the city and if my friend wasn't there with me I'd have had a panic attack. I don't even know how a lot of female clothing works, and forget actually trying a dress or skirt on. I feel like makeup would have a similar thing. I'm astonished I managed to buy the nail polish that I have. I appreciate all the Youtube links, though, when I manage to get my hands on some makeup I will put them to good use!

[Heliomance]

Hi guys, just to let you know that if I don't show up for a while, it'll probably be because I've been arrested for murdering one of my friends that I'm pretty sure has got an appointment at Charing Cross before me. Wish me luck!

[Proud Tortoise]

Hi guys, just to let you know that if I don't show up for a while, it'll probably be because I've been arrested for murdering one of my friends that I'm pretty sure has got an appointment at Charing Cross before me. Wish me luck!

...
......
0_0

[TaiLiu]

Hi guys, just to let you know that if I don't show up for a while, it'll probably be because I've been arrested for murdering one of my friends that I'm pretty sure has got an appointment at Charing Cross before me. Wish me luck!
Good luck not killing your friend! :smalltongue:

[Miriel]

At this point I don't know. I don't even know which label I'd prefer to apply to myself yet. Am I genderqueer? Trans? A cis dude who just wants to look cute and girly without being scared of being judged for it? No idea. Little bit of dysphoria, sometimes, but usually it's something that comes up when I'm already feeling really down, not something that bothers me when I'm in a good place.
Well, whatever you decide you are, good luck with that :smallsmile: (Personnally, given how strict masculinity can be with regards to gender expression, I tend to put MAABs who wear dresses somewhere in the trans* umbrella, so either transgender or genderqueer, but the labels you use are your choice.)

I found these questions (http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/question.html) very useful in my own decision process.

As they say, "only you can know". But if you have any questions or need help, well... it's a support thread, so don't hesitate! (+ you can PM me if you want.)


Hiding the beard is a huge thing, I'm white and have dark hair so I never look hairless on my chin which I hate. My face is a constant battle between my hatred for shaving and my hatred for facial hair. I also do want just general makeup stuff as well.
What I do:
- Exfoliating creme, to get rid of dead skin.
- Shave. Shave shave shave, shave, shave. A lot. With lots of shaving cream and good blades. I shave a first time with the grain, then reapply shaving cream and shave against the grain, which is unpleasant and has a high risk of cutting, but after that, well... you have a really close shave.
- Concealer on all the beard area. You just dot the whole area with the thing, and mix with your hands.
- Cheap lipstick. Do the same as with the concealer. It's meant to cancel the bluish colour from the beard. Strangely, it seems to work.
- Foundation. I have some kind of 8 in 1 foundation cream and some genuine liquid foundation. I always put the first one, because it's fun to wear, and it's good enough for a moment. I add the second one if I want to be sure nothing can be seen, but I'm still not used to it, so I tend not to put it on if I just want to study at the library or other things like that. Be aware that foundation tends disagree with scratching, water and the like.
(- When I will manage to buy blush, this would be the place in the list when I would put it, if I understand correctly. It does nothing for the beard, but it's feminine and nice and gives some colour to your uniform post-foundation look.)
- Powder. Once again, you will need a brush. Very important. It cancels the shine from the other products.

After that, add (not-cheap) lipstick, mascara, etc., as desired.

Most of this is, as I understand, mostly standard practice for trans women.

EDIT: What do you mean by "hatred of shaving"?

As for buying makeup... that's one of the worst things. I have bought dresses before at shops in the city and if my friend wasn't there with me I'd have had a panic attack. I don't even know how a lot of female clothing works, and forget actually trying a dress or skirt on. I feel like makeup would have a similar thing. I'm astonished I managed to buy the nail polish that I have. I appreciate all the Youtube links, though, when I manage to get my hands on some makeup I will put them to good use!
I advise ordering online at first. It's not what I did, and I regret it in a way, but a friend of mine ordered me a huge makeup starting kit with amazing things in it.

It helps with the anxiety, of course, but it's also very practical. The tips you'll find online, amazing though they are, will say things like "concealer" and "blush" and "liquid foundation" and "compact powder", or will mention dozens of brushes without describing them from others. But when you get in the actual store, you will notice that the organization is chaotic (even my FAAB friends get lost) and that you have no idea what each item you're supposed to buy looks like.

Otherwise, using friends for confidence is a really good trick :smallsmile:

[cavalieredraghi]

Hi to the new people missed. I will bring the pie and Waffles tomorrow for them. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:



That is awesome. What was the referal for though? :P
HRT?
Hormone Replacement Therapy.


Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.
*hugs* stay strong. you can do girl!

Hi guys, just to let you know that if I don't show up for a while, it'll probably be because I've been arrested for murdering one of my friends that I'm pretty sure has got an appointment at Charing Cross before me. Wish me luck!

I can help hide the body!

[Sabeki]

That was... somewhat disturbing, cab. Just a bit.
But hooray forr trans people transitioning! (Even if they do go before Helio :smallfrown:)

[SiuiS]

Good news, everybody!
(This concludes the Farnsworth portion of Lentrax's day. He is tired and is going to bed. Good night all. *cue Taps*)

Well played.



Good point. I suppose the assumption, then, is that everybody will simply be encouraged to manipulate and abuse everyone else, which certainly doesn't seem a reasonable societal expectation (although several that we currently have don't either, so that doesn't mean much).

Well, people are taught that morality is always subjective, which means there are no rules. As such, the path of least resistance is for everyone to be equally terrible human beings.

Part of why I want children, really. To raise decent people to go into the world. The world's gonna need it and I've got a limited duration myself.




Also, I've been meaning to compliment Zorg on her new avatar; it is pretty much the best.

I had the opposite reaction! First I was like "where is Zorg? It told me Zorg posted, did I not load the whole page?" And then I was all "oh no! What is wrong with Zorg? Is she okay? D:"

But third was "that is really neat is that from an existing work or was it commission? Could I get one like that?" So I guess I didn't have the opposite reaction after all?



@ almost everything else: WORDS WORDS WORDS THAT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT!

Well, go read those words and learn, then! You silly!


My ex-boyfriend came out on Facebook, confusingly enough he took the same name as my current significant other ... x) Ah well, it's a good name, confusion aside. He's started HRT and seems to be taking college by storm. Really glad he's doing well, I didn't realize this was part of what was wrong at the time but have worried for him, knowing he's found a way to fix something that was wrong makes me ... actually slightly jealous, but mostly pleased.

Lead to conversations with significant other on gender ... hadn't been exposed to trans* circles much before I started looking into it and has enough parallel experiences to wonder if they're actually female (presumed they would be so at a youthful age, would take the 'magic swap to a cis female body' option in a heartbeat) ... they're quite wary of the prospect though ... not completely sure how to help with this, basically said try exploring what helps them feel right, and shouldn't feel they have to do anything even if they are secretly a girl.

... though anything that can make them happier is good in my book.

Hmm. So your ex-boyfriend has come out as transsexual and is now a girl? Or your ex-girlfriend has come out and is now a boy?

And aye, trials and tribulations aside, actionable choices are always nice.


Hi guys, just to let you know that if I don't show up for a while, it'll probably be because I've been arrested for murdering one of my friends that I'm pretty sure has got an appointment at Charing Cross before me. Wish me luck!

I am caught between wanting to say something funny, and realisif that I would be indelibly condoning murder in writing. So uh, you have my support? Unless it's immoral, in which case you have my support in the help group sense :smalltongue:

[Kajhera]

Hmm. So your ex-boyfriend has come out as transsexual and is now a girl? Or your ex-girlfriend has come out and is now a boy?

And aye, trials and tribulations aside, actionable choices are always nice.


My ex-formerly-known-as-ex-girlfriend has come out as transsexual and is a boy.

[Chess435]

My ex-formerly-known-as-ex-girlfriend has come out as transsexual and is a boy.

Does that technically make him your ex-boyfriend, or is that not retroactive? :smallconfused:

[Kajhera]

Does that technically make him your ex-boyfriend, or is that not retroactive? :smallconfused:

I believe it does make him my ex-boyfriend yes. Though some explanation may be required in the future if I mention I started entertaining the consideration I was lesbian when I started being attracted to him.

[Serpentine]

My trans friend (who is in her 20s) is no longer allowed in the family house in feminine attire, yet is expected to drop everything at a moment's notice to babysit her siblings (aged 13, 16 and 20), I'm pretty sure for free, because apparently her parents don't trust teenagers to be at home alone.
Parenting: You're Doing It Wrong :mad:

I used to walk home through bushland on my own at 10, and my 14 year old nephew has been babysitting his now-4 year old brother all on his own for about the past 2 or 3 years. Maybe this isn't normal, but I still think that if you can't trust a 13, 16 and 20 year old to be home alone, then you have seriously screwed up as a parent somewhere along the line.
Plus, you know, the whole forcing someone to always be around you to the point where they give up renting their own apartment yet forbidding them from wearing what they want or being who they are or spending time with the people they want to (her boyfriend's banned from the house, too) when they do so, thing.

Oh, but on the positive end of this sort of thing: When I told my dad I had a date, he asked me whether it was with a boy or a girl :smallbiggrin:

[QueerKitty]

I don't particularly appreciate being told part of my identity is cissexist crap.

and to segue into a longer rant not directed at anyone in particular - this sort of thing is why I don't have much to do with the LGBT+ community outsdie this thread. I mean we're proclaiming we're "all inclusive" but how many times have I been shamed for being traditionally femme (hur, makeup is evul, death to traditional gender roles, if you're trans and want to be pretty you're internalising cissexism and misogyny!), been made to feel like I'm wrong for talking about how I'm upset I never got to wear a pretty dress for my 16th birthday, or to graduation, or that I had to hide away learning to walk in heels rather than have fun doing it. Made to feel like I'm a traitor or not properly trans/bi/feminist for wanting to be pretty and cute. When media is discussed and everyone homes in on how problematic it is that they're showing things I've always dreamt of having - going from my quiet, sullen existence to being a beautiful vibrant princess is the stuff my dreams were made of, yet seein ghtat is "problematic". Yes, I know the problem is that that is the only story given, but it is so hard to be in the LGBT+ / feminist culture when everything seems to be attacking your identity for being to blame.
I have had to live my whole ****ing life being a victim of the patriarchy and transphobia, so don't go telling me what I feel is wrong. Yes, I want to have a partner who'll look after me; yes, the idea of wearing dresses, doing my makeup and being a housewife appeals to me; and, yes, I sometimes do feel like a woman in a man's body.
But you know what? That's me and if someone's experience of being Trans, or a lesbian, or a woman is different I don't care so long as they are living that way willingly. And I've been in a relationship where I was abused and raped, so I ****ing know the difference between being happily not wearing the pants and the world ****ing me over.

Labels should be descriptive, not proscriptive, and if someone is comfortable with one and you don't like it - go **** yourself.
If it makes you comfortable to identify as that, that's fine. However, "man in a woman's body/woman in a man's body" are typically terms used by cis people to try to understand trans people, which is fine in and of itself. The problem comes in when a trans woman is told her body is a man's body. No... She is a woman, her body is a woman's body. You don't magically get a new body when you transition. You don't get a brain transplant. Those terms are very binary-enforcing and cissexist, and if you identify as them, that's fine, but you will hopefully recognize that as internalized cissexism and consider your body a woman's body eventually. I think the same thing about trans women specific slurs. Some people identify with them, but they're harmful, and recognizing that is an important step in self-identification.

Most of the problems you listed seem like an individual problem you could have handled with a bit of discussion. I want to be pretty and cute and femme too and haven't come across much of that, maybe it's just your corner of Australia? Part of feminism, specifically trans women inclusive feminism is that identifying as a woman is the only prereq for being a woman - and shaming women for how they present as women (makeup vs no, femme vs butch, etc.) is mean and not feminist at all.


I pretty much completely agree. It's why I don't post here much, or do much to be a part of the LGBTA+ community in general. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in that lonely gap between "people who don't understand/approve of LGBTA+" and "die cis scum". The middle ground seems to be so tiny and unpopulated that it's no wonder I always end up as a lonely, bitter husk that pushes people away. :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

Y'know, not that anyone gives a crap what I'm feeling or anything. Easier to just dismiss me as "mean ol' Skep hates everyone".

Die Cis Scum is a mechanic to explain to cis people what trans people can go through on a day to day basic. If you get mad at people for using it, you don't fully understand it as a vehicle for discussion about violence against transgender people, specifically trans women, specifically people of color. Literally 0 cis people have ever died for being cis. Here's (http://www.transgenderdor.org/memorializing-2013)all the trans people that died because they were trans. Significantly more than 0. I suggest reading all their names.

[mistformsquirrl]

*rains squirrels on everyone* <o_o> Hi again all!

Been doing surprisingly well of late - and been kinda busy-ish so I haven't been posting much, but I wanted to say "hi!"

*hugs to anyone who needs em* >.< Miss you folks, but I don't have a whole lot to talk about at the moment, at least that's on topic <~-~> gender is feeling very neutral, which is fine by me < . .> I can just focus on my other stuff for once. Like squirrels. Hordes of them.

(Oh dear sweet bob I've gotten back into roleplaying again <;_;> What have I done? This can only end in tears. Well or squirrels. Squirrel tears.)

[SiuiS]

My ex-formerly-known-as-ex-girlfriend has come out as transsexual and is a boy.

Oh, okay!
Yeah. I wasn't gonna keep that straight, sorry. >_<
It's probably rude of me to ask, come to think; I would have been better served by asking how to refer to the ex, because it's less directly invasive of privacy.


Does that technically make him your ex-boyfriend, or is that not retroactive? :smallconfused:

I do not think it is retroactive, but then I have a much looser take on things like this than some.


stuff

Is... Is this targeted spam?


My trans friend (who is in her 20s) is no longer allowed in the family house in feminine attire, yet is expected to drop everything at a moment's notice to babysit her siblings (aged 13, 16 and 20), I'm pretty sure for free, because apparently her parents don't trust teenagers to be at home alone.
Parenting: You're Doing It Wrong :mad:

I used to walk home through bushland on my own at 10, and my 14 year old nephew has been babysitting his now-4 year old brother all on his own for about the past 2 or 3 years. Maybe this isn't normal, but I still think that if you can't trust a 13, 16 and 20 year old to be home alone, then you have seriously screwed up as a parent somewhere along the line.
Plus, you know, the whole forcing someone to always be around you to the point where they give up renting their own apartment yet forbidding them from wearing what they want or being who they are or spending time with the people they want to (her boyfriend's banned from the house, too) when they do so, thing.

Oh, but on the positive end of this sort of thing: When I told my dad I had a date, he asked me whether it was with a boy or a girl :smallbiggrin:

Ech. Parents. Y'know?

And aye. At age seven I was walking five miles barefoot to a shopping arcade to spend collected change to buy a hamburger. I would then spend three or four hours just hanging out in the you store, making lists and playig make believe, and then either walk home or take too long and have my mom show up and yell at me for leaving on my own without telling anyone.

At age 18 I was supposed to ask permission to leave my block.

The world we live in, ladies and gentleman! Not sure if too dangerous or too plastic wrapped, but definitely too something.


And cool!

[HMS Sophia]

Guess who found her log in details and is online at work (it's my lunch break, it's allowed :P)

In other news... I have work, which is painfully uncomfortable as ever for all the normal reasons, but otherwise good. I'm depressingly poor, but that should change come Friday. For a little while at least. I have no idea what I'm going to do for Christmas and New year (Do I spend it with the family who won't accept me transitioning, or the friends I'm not out too?).
All in all, I'm having a wonderful time. Locking **** away gets harder every day and I'm pretty sure a public meltdown is on the cards. That would be good.

Hope all are well. *hugs*

[noparlpf]

If it makes you comfortable to identify as that, that's fine. However, "man in a woman's body/woman in a man's body" are typically terms used by cis people to try to understand trans people, which is fine in and of itself. The problem comes in when a trans woman is told her body is a man's body. No... She is a woman, her body is a woman's body. You don't magically get a new body when you transition. You don't get a brain transplant. Those terms are very binary-enforcing and cissexist, and if you identify as them, that's fine, but you will hopefully recognize that as internalized cissexism and consider your body a woman's body eventually. I think the same thing about trans women specific slurs. Some people identify with them, but they're harmful, and recognizing that is an important step in self-identification.

Hmm. Technically, yes, the body does belong to a woman and is therefore a woman's body. However, it is a male body that belongs to a woman, hence the problem. "Woman in a man's body" is the simplest way to summarise for the uninitiated, rather than something convoluted like "woman in a woman's body but it's actually a male body so she has lots of problems with it and that sucks".


Die Cis Scum is a mechanic to explain to cis people what trans people can go through on a day to day basic. If you get mad at people for using it, you don't fully understand it as a vehicle for discussion about violence against transgender people, specifically trans women, specifically people of color. Literally 0 cis people have ever died for being cis. Here's (http://www.transgenderdor.org/memorializing-2013)all the trans people that died because they were trans. Significantly more than 0. I suggest reading all their names.

I'm pretty sure there's a way better way to talk about violence against trans people than to threaten violence against cis people (which makes us tend to dismiss you as crazy, dangerous nuts, by the way). Try actually saying that violence against trans people is bad instead of not saying that.

[Skeppio]

I'm pretty sure there's a way better way to talk about violence against trans people than to threaten violence against cis people (which makes us tend to dismiss you as crazy, dangerous nuts, by the way). Try actually saying that violence against trans people is bad instead of not saying that.

This is my main criticism against "die cis scum". Any point you could make with it can be done better in a way that doesn't come across as "You're not a minority? Then **** you, you deserve to die!". Which is a sentiment I see way too often in the LGBTA+ community. Given all we've suffered, we should know better than that! :smallfurious:

[Zorg]

Also, I've been meaning to compliment Zorg on her new avatar; it is pretty much the best.


I had the opposite reaction! First I was like "where is Zorg? It told me Zorg posted, did I not load the whole page?" And then I was all "oh no! What is wrong with Zorg? Is she okay? D:"

But third was "that is really neat is that from an existing work or was it commission? Could I get one like that?" So I guess I didn't have the opposite reaction after all?

Not sure where it's from, yet to find one with tags (or tags I can read)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KZ0C01F81SU/UoE9x0InP9I/AAAAAAAAAG4/4WfCRIf0r8k/s1600/tumblr_mvyzl85S7e1sx7fz8o1_500.jpg

[Miriel]

Hmm. Technically, yes, the body does belong to a woman and is therefore a woman's body. However, it is a male body that belongs to a woman, hence the problem. "Woman in a man's body" is the simplest way to summarise for the uninitiated, rather than something convoluted like "woman in a woman's body but it's actually a male body so she has lots of problems with it and that sucks".
The problem is, this "easy to understand" narrative is as deeply entrenched as it it unrealistic for trans people. It is what the general public expects, and it is also institutionalized through the healthcare system, but it creates expectations that are hard to meet: if you didn't want to wear dresses since age 4 or if you prefered the type of play of your birth assigned gender, well, you suddenly open up for other people to dismiss your identity.

+ it is essentialist, in that it makes gender identity as the "wrong" gender something that's determined at birth. Tactically, this is good for trans people on a day to day basis because it addresses the issue of people trying to "solve" you by making you identify with your birth assigned gender. However, it does carry the idea of gender as an unalterable given, which is dangerous.

[noparlpf]

The problem is, this "easy to understand" narrative is as deeply entrenched as it it unrealistic for trans people. It is what the general public expects, and it is also institutionalized through the healthcare system, but it creates expectations that are hard to meet: if you didn't want to wear dresses since age 4 or if you prefered the type of play of your birth assigned gender, well, you suddenly open up for other people to dismiss your identity.

+ it is essentialist, in that it makes gender identity as the "wrong" gender something that's determined at birth. Tactically, this is good for trans people on a day to day basis because it addresses the issue of people trying to "solve" you by making you identify with your birth assigned gender. However, it does carry the idea of gender as an unalterable given, which is dangerous.

Easy to understand is good for introductions. Once you're past that, explain stuff in more detail.

[Zorg]

Gotta love that a discussion of how "woman in a man's body is the great satan" sprung from me saying how I identify with that and hate being badgered about my identity being wrong - guess I just suddenly opened up for other people to dismiss my identity though, right?

[SMEE]

Gotta love that a discussion of how "woman in a man's body is the great satan" sprung from me saying how I identify with that and hate being badgered about my identity being wrong - guess I just suddenly opened up for other people to dismiss my identity though, right?

Certainly not me.
I use that explanation often as well because it gets the point across pretty easy for most people.
And I really dislike this "cis-scum" thing. It makes use FAR less welcoming to people that can be our allies and point stuff that can help make us pass easier just because they "have some kind of privilege".
I believe that stance does a great harm to our cause.

[Delusion]

Guess who found her log in details and is online at work (it's my lunch break, it's allowed :P)

In other news... I have work, which is painfully uncomfortable as ever for all the normal reasons, but otherwise good. I'm depressingly poor, but that should change come Friday. For a little while at least. I have no idea what I'm going to do for Christmas and New year (Do I spend it with the family who won't accept me transitioning, or the friends I'm not out too?).
All in all, I'm having a wonderful time. Locking **** away gets harder every day and I'm pretty sure a public meltdown is on the cards. That would be good.

Hope all are well. *hugs*

I don't really have any advice, but I hope hugs will help a little. *Hugs*
I'm often at skype if you need someone to talk to.


Certainly not me.
I use that explanation often as well because it gets the point across pretty easy for most people.
And I really dislike this "cis-scum" thing. It makes use FAR less welcoming to people that can be our allies and point stuff that can help make us pass easier just because they "have some kind of privilege".
I believe that stance does a great harm to our cause.

I agree.
It is important to have cis people see the effects of transphobia and what trans* people have to go through, but calling everone of them scum? I don't see how that would help.

Calling bigots out is totally different however, and its not necessary to be polite when doing so, but I draw a line at "die cis-scum."

[Miriel]

Gotta love that a discussion of how "woman in a man's body is the great satan" sprung from me saying how I identify with that and hate being badgered about my identity being wrong - guess I just suddenly opened up for other people to dismiss my identity though, right?
Sorry for that.

I don't mean to dismiss it (or you, obviously), but there are problems with the narrative. Obviously, some trans people feel strongly about these things for entirely valid reasons, since their identity is often denied by other people, which means that one must tread carefully (which, I must admit, it appears I have failed to do if I hurt you). Pointing them out should not be seen as a rejection, but as criticism intended as constructive generally, just as pointing out problems with the construction of feminity or masculinity rejects women or men who identify with them.

(Also, I feel constrained to point out that when I see people using the "wrong body" narrative, I feel that my own identity as trans and as female is denied. It can go both ways. It's because of that that I am critical of it.)

[SiuiS]

Guess who found her log in details and is online at work (it's my lunch break, it's allowed :P)

In other news... I have work, which is painfully uncomfortable as ever for all the normal reasons, but otherwise good. I'm depressingly poor, but that should change come Friday. For a little while at least. I have no idea what I'm going to do for Christmas and New year (Do I spend it with the family who won't accept me transitioning, or the friends I'm not out too?).
All in all, I'm having a wonderful time. Locking **** away gets harder every day and I'm pretty sure a public meltdown is on the cards. That would be good.

Hope all are well. *hugs*

As much as that sort of thing can suck, a public meltdown might be a good thing.

Is there any way to slowly introduce your friends to the idea? Sort of bleed off pressure?

And, time for spoilers! Big one because I'm lazy.


[=Trigger: Issues with the "wrong body" narrative]The problem is, this "easy to understand" narrative is as deeply entrenched as it it unrealistic for trans people.[]

How is it unrealistic?

Like I said before, this is a consequence of Internet thinking. Yes, it's 100% logical to say that because you are a woman, and it is your body, it is a woman's body. But it's also equally logical to say that because woman is an artificial social construct based in nonexistent objective divisions across an also non-objective binary that you're not a woman. There are no women. Women do not exit because they do not have objective proof that they exist.

Except that's pretty irrational.

It's also irrational to say that because you are a woman and it's your body it is a woman's body, because you are condensing connotation into denigration and saying it's wrong. Effectively, this is a straw man argument. When I say "I feel like a woman in a man's body1" I am not saying that my soul vehicle is trapped in the wrong model of meat. I am saying "I am a woman, and the body I am in is possessed of characteristics which generate a feel opposite this social binary from where I would feel at ease". It is an easy way to state an affirmation (I am a woman) and the problem (and my body is being a jackass and not cooperating). It's not incorrect, it just plays into different assumptions of language than a linear, face-value compile.


+ it is essentialist,

Case in point: so what? There is nothing wrong with being essentialist. It means you ascribe to the philosophy that things have defining characteristics. You're relying on socially ingrained baggage to make this statement make sense; you say essentialist, and you mean gender essentialist when science and biochemistry have show that gender and sex have greater plasticity than assumed, that physical sex does not have any bearing on gender identity or expression, that the enforcement of arbitrary gender norms is a form of oppression, and this essentialism as it applies to gender is a bad thing, and since people inherently want to be good, or at least not bad, essentialism is a thing the conscientious citizen should avoid.

So here's my question; why can you mean all that when you say "it's essentialist and that's bad" but you cannot look at "woman in a man's body" with the same colloquial grasp?




I agree.
It is important to have cis people see the effects of transphobia and what trans* people have to go through, but calling everone of them scum? I don't see how that would help.

Calling bigots out is totally different however, and its not necessary to be polite when doing so, but I draw a line at "die cis-scum."

Yes. "A vehicle for expression" is nice and all, but it has to be known to work. Satire must be recognizable as satire or else it just sounds like you're being a terrible person.

Worse; people will read Die Cis Scum, take it at face value (ie miss the point), assume that because people they respect say it, it's a good thing, and perpetrate the package without the content. Through time and memetic transfer it comes across that there is a militant trans group that wants to kill all non transsexuals – and these are the same transsexuals who police other transfolks and try to enforce their views and nomenclature, often violently! – and the entire purpose of showing you what it's like is Lost.

There is a saying; you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. This is true. No amount of Education will get through to someone who is not ready or willig to receive the education. Punitive action – and that's what this is, punitive counter-bullying – is satisfying, but it does not work.


"The issue is that for centuries people have tried and tried again to change the world, to ‘free the masses’ and save people from suffering, misery, and oppression – but too often revolutionaries resort to violence as their means. The systems are so rigidly and stubbornly in place that the revolutionary comes to see no other way to bring about radical social change except through a widespread violent overthrow. But this form of revolution will come at the cost of many people’s freedom and well-being. It will violently silence dissenting voices, it will suppress alternative visions, and will stifle creativity and difference for the sake of effectiveness or the success of the cause. A revolution that takes away human freedom and creativity is no revolution at all. It has not gone deep enough to the roots that would bring about the radical change that would respond to the deep cry from within the human heart."

Change must come in a different form than the oppression change seeks to supplant.

[Lentrax]

Sorry for that.

I don't mean to dismiss it (or you, obviously), but there are problems with the narrative. Obviously, some trans people feel strongly about these things for entirely valid reasons, since their identity is often denied by other people, which means that one must tread carefully (which, I must admit, it appears I have failed to do if I hurt you). Pointing them out should not be seen as a rejection, but as criticism intended as constructive generally, just as pointing out problems with the construction of feminity or masculinity rejects women or men who identify with them.

(Also, I feel constrained to point out that when I see people using the "wrong body" narrative, I feel that my own identity as trans and as female is denied. It can go both ways. It's because of that that I am critical of it.)

This whole issue serves to underscore a very important point: the necessity of dialogue. I hope that as everyone has added their own views on the "wrong body paradigm" we have all been able to walk away understanding each other better.

Sadly, while we here on the Playground can claim such enlightenment, it is those around us who cannot. And more often than not, our attempts at coaching our friends, families, and loved ones will fall upon closed ears. Not necessarily because they don't want to listen, but because they don't know how to listen.

This is why it is important to teach our children about who we are. This is why anyone teaches anything to a child. Because their ears, and thus this minds, are still open. It doesn't mean we don't try to reach the adults, it just means we have to try harder.

So I encourage everyone here to not take everything they read at its face value. If someone writes something you find offensive, or slanderous, or just plain wrong, ask them about it. Don't just slam into them full throttle. Because they may not have intended to insult you, and just used a wrong word, or failed to make their point clearly enough. We have to keep in mind that we all need to have open minds in order to ask others to open their minds to our ideas.

[Lycunadari]

Aaand I'm ill again. Sigh. I just hope I didn't catch whatever it is my co-worker has, he's hardly been able to eat anything for days now and suffers from constant headaches. :smalleek:
I'm also feeling dysphoric again. Can I have hugs?

[The Succubus]

Aaand I'm ill again. Sigh. I just hope I didn't catch whatever it is my co-worker has, he's hardly been able to eat anything for days now and suffers from constant headaches. :smalleek:
I'm also feeling dysphoric again. Can I have hugs?

Hey Juniper. It's good that you're ill at the moment because it means I have someone to hug without worrying about them catching my flu.

*hugs*

[noparlpf]

Aaand I'm ill again. Sigh. I just hope I didn't catch whatever it is my co-worker has, he's hardly been able to eat anything for days now and suffers from constant headaches. :smalleek:
I'm also feeling dysphoric again. Can I have hugs?

That sucks. Feel better soon. *hugs*

[Zorg]

Those terms are very binary-enforcing and cissexist, and if you identify as them, that's fine, but you will hopefully recognize that as internalized cissexism and consider your body a woman's body eventually.

"You can think that, but you're actually wrong" - note the lack of inquiry to why I chose those terms, how they are important to me or anything relating to my life. Nope, just tell me what I should be feeling instead...


The problem is, this "easy to understand" narrative is as deeply entrenched as it it unrealistic for trans people.

Guess my story is unrealistic then!


Also, I feel constrained to point out that when I see people using the "wrong body" narrative, I feel that my own identity as trans and as female is denied. It can go both ways. It's because of that that I am critical of it.

When I said it was my story, did I say it was the only story? Did I say that other stories were cissexist or harmful? NO.
Yet all the time I see people dismissing MY STORY - explicitly after I said I hated having it dismissed - as flat out wrong, dangerous and creating hard to meet expectations for others. I never said my story was the right one, the only one or even that it was anyone on earth's but mine... actually I'll quote myself here:

I have had to live my whole ****ing life being a victim of the patriarchy and transphobia, so don't go telling me what I feel is wrong. Yes, I want to have a partner who'll look after me; yes, the idea of wearing dresses, doing my makeup and being a housewife appeals to me; and, yes, I sometimes do feel like a woman in a man's body.
But you know what? That's me and if someone's experience of being Trans, or a lesbian, or a woman is different I don't care so long as they are living that way willingly.

That's literally what I wrote, and if that denied someone else their identity, I'm sorry, but I will not stand for my story MY LIFE being labelled as wrong.

To quote myself again: Labels should be descriptive, not proscriptive, and if someone is comfortable with one and you don't like it - go **** yourself.

[Kajhera]

*hugs Lycunadari*

Hope I'm doing alright at explaining the trans* bit to my dad. That even with the lack of understanding around the matter, presenting as the right gender and getting the right hormones are very much a positive for exboyfriend, particularly since he has the support of friends and family. That there isn't a single 'sex change' operation to be done, though hormones make a major difference. That he's not 'turning into' a guy but has always been so, figured it out and is taking steps so the perception of others and chemicals in his brain align with reality. (This is his specific narrative, not a general one.) Constantly correcting gender to try and break the ingrained habit (I used to be utterly incapable of such matters as referring to someone named Christopher as Chris, even when they started going by such so I can understand this; but misgendering would be a far more grave injury...).

[Miriel]

How is it unrealistic?

Like I said before, this is a consequence of Internet thinking. Yes, it's 100% logical to say that because you are a woman, and it is your body, it is a woman's body. But it's also equally logical to say that because woman is an artificial social construct based in nonexistent objective divisions across an also non-objective binary that you're not a woman. There are no women. Women do not exit because they do not have objective proof that they exist.

Except that's pretty irrational.

It's also irrational to say that because you are a woman and it's your body it is a woman's body, because you are condensing connotation into denigration and saying it's wrong. Effectively, this is a straw man argument. When I say "I feel like a woman in a man's body1" I am not saying that my soul vehicle is trapped in the wrong model of meat. I am saying "I am a woman, and the body I am in is possessed of characteristics which generate a feel opposite this social binary from where I would feel at ease". It is an easy way to state an affirmation (I am a woman) and the problem (and my body is being a jackass and not cooperating). It's not incorrect, it just plays into different assumptions of language than a linear, face-value compile.
I never said my body is a woman's body (that was QueerKitty I think), because I feel that it very obviously isn't, and it's something that causes me great pain and dysphoria. I was not talking about that, however, but rather the narrative that surrounds it, so I think we are not talking about the same thing. Or maybe I am arguing in the wrong debate and bashed in my petty concerns. I don't know.

As I said, what I am critical about is the narrative around the "wrong body" topos, i.e "I always knew, I was born this way, and I always wanted to do behaviour X that was against my assigned gender", etc., not just stating that your body is incongruent with your gender. This narrative is unrealistic.
1) It raises a definition problem, because, well... what does "being a man/woman" mean in this context?
2) Few trans people have "always" had behaviours, attitudes, etc., strictly related to their gender identity, or always shunned what was associated to their assigned gender -- and not necessarly because of denial or such. Obviously, the same could be said of cis people, but in our case, if we rely on a narrative that says we "always" were X, it's easy for other people to go back in the past and find instances of us acting in the expected way for our birth-assigned gender. Of course we know it's irrelevant, but do they? I think it's hurtful for us to use a narrative for our experience that lends so easily to attack by others.
3) "I have always known" is a very strong assertion. It's pretty much non-falsifiable too, because the only person who could "always" have known would be you, and long term memory is notoriously fluid with such things. I think the narrative forces us to understand our past in a very specific, distortive light. I mean, sure, there are specific experiences in my past that I could use to "prove" that I "always" was a woman, etc., but if I used them this way, would I be true to myself? Even if I don't remember internally identifying as male, I don't think it would be true to say I therefore identified as a woman. I (consciously and actively) decided not use the past to justify or explain the present. However, in the end, the fact that I didn't want dresses and such at four y.o. was the kind of thing that slowed me down in my own pre-transition realization process. (Obviously, I don't mean to say that all people who say they always knew are liers. Only you can know what applies to you.)
4) As I said, this narrative is institutionalized. If we don't follow it, we risk being denied our identity by the healthcare system and, thus, not get the medical treatment we need. This is even more of a problem for genderqueer people.


Case in point: so what? There is nothing wrong with being essentialist. It means you ascribe to the philosophy that things have defining characteristics. You're relying on socially ingrained baggage to make this statement make sense; you say essentialist, and you mean gender essentialist when science and biochemistry have show that gender and sex have greater plasticity than assumed, that physical sex does not have any bearing on gender identity or expression, that the enforcement of arbitrary gender norms is a form of oppression, and this essentialism as it applies to gender is a bad thing, and since people inherently want to be good, or at least not bad, essentialism is a thing the conscientious citizen should avoid.

So here's my question; why can you mean all that when you say "it's essentialist and that's bad" but you cannot look at "woman in a man's body" with the same colloquial grasp?
I think I expressed what I meant better about the "wrong body" thing, so, if you don't disagree, I'll leave this unanswered, because it's not applicable.

[Jormengand]

Aaand I'm ill again. Sigh. I just hope I didn't catch whatever it is my co-worker has, he's hardly been able to eat anything for days now and suffers from constant headaches. :smalleek:
I'm also feeling dysphoric again. Can I have hugs?

Always.

*Hugs you.*

[Miriel]

When I said it was my story, did I say it was the only story? Did I say that other stories were cissexist or harmful? NO.
Yet all the time I see people dismissing MY STORY - explicitly after I said I hated having it dismissed - as flat out wrong, dangerous and creating hard to meet expectations for others. I never said my story was the right one, the only one or even that it was anyone on earth's but mine... actually I'll quote myself here:

I have had to live my whole ****ing life being a victim of the patriarchy and transphobia, so don't go telling me what I feel is wrong. Yes, I want to have a partner who'll look after me; yes, the idea of wearing dresses, doing my makeup and being a housewife appeals to me; and, yes, I sometimes do feel like a woman in a man's body.
But you know what? That's me and if someone's experience of being Trans, or a lesbian, or a woman is different I don't care so long as they are living that way willingly.

That's literally what I wrote, and if that denied someone else their identity, I'm sorry, but I will not stand for my story MY LIFE being labelled as wrong.

To quote myself again: Labels should be descriptive, not proscriptive, and if someone is comfortable with one and you don't like it - go **** yourself.
Again, I'm sorry. I can be gauche at saying what I mean. Obviously, you have a right to your story, and I'm deeply sorry if I came accross as dismissive.

By unrealistic, I meant that it's unrealistic to expect all trans* people to follow it, not that it is unrealistic that any one person identifies with it. Not least because, well, many do, and that's fine.

Yes, there are other stories, and no, I don't mean to say that you are forcing anyone to adopt yours. The problem is not about your using it, it's not about you at all, it's about the fact that this story is dominant, that it's the standard. I have no problem about the fact that you are capable of relating to it, and, well... it's great for you, and I have no problem with this. But you must recognize that this is, in a way, a "privilege", even though you never wanted it, because the many trans* people who don't fit the narrative must either lie (to others or to themselves) or face one more dose of rejection -- just in case being trans in the first place wasn't enough.

Is that better expressed?

Sorry again...

[SiuiS]

Could you fix the spoiler in your quoting? I think some tags got lopsided.
Oh, you did! Smashing. :smallsmile:

As a quick aside;

Could we please spoiler-box or snip quotes that are hot-button issues in the future? This could prevent issues where someone skimming past person A but then having to read their stuff when Person B quotes them is a thing.

Anyway!



I'm not saying you, Enrico, I am saying the general you.

1. There is no issue with definition, because the definition is either understood via context of the conversation, or a person can ask. That's perfect; it means people will learn.

2. I never brought up "I've always known", I am talking about people shooting down the Woman In Man's Body thing. Just because these concepts are connected for you (specific you), does not mean they are connected for everyone. The fact that this made sense to you but looks like you're changing the topic to me is proof. It feeds back into my point about why we accept that our own standbys have broad contextual meaning but other people must be taken literally.

3. See 2.

4. Institutionalization does not make something wrong, it makes it prominent. This is not an argument? It's a statement. There is nothing inherently wrong with Institutionalization. It can potentially make it harder to receive treatment but has absolutely nothing at all whatsoever to do with how a person feels and talks in private with their friends and acquaintances. This is thought policing. It is saying do not get into a habit with me, your friend, because if you later fall into this habit with your doctor, it will cause problems.

The answer is not to follow a different mindless pattern ("recite my chosen narrative, not yours"). The answer is to not do anything mindlessly.


I feel my question still stands. But I am being rude; I am asking you why it is okay to allow yourself nuance and allusion, but not others, to make you question your own actions. I would like an answer, but really I just want people to think about it and then extend this level of courtesy and understanding towards others that they have for themselves. The first words out of anyone when you disagree should probably be "what do you mean?", and if they aren't, well, we end up here.


For what it's worth, I think you're getting the brunt of this because you're the Face, enrico. You're te person on together side presenting a reasonable argument and willing to have a discussion; as such, I doubt any vitriol is being directed at you personally. I do hope you don't leave this discussion feeling bad.

[HMS Sophia]

As much as that sort of thing can suck, a public meltdown might be a good thing.

Is there any way to slowly introduce your friends to the idea? Sort of bleed off pressure?

Given that I'm most often in work right now, it wouldn't be a great idea. I've done it before. I lost that job. Fancy that.

They know I'm definitely not straight. They have an idea that I push clothing boundaries (She does, at least). But Him, the area I live in, neither seems particularly open to the idea of a trans person. So... yeah.

[Miriel]

1. There is no issue with definition, because the definition is either understood via context of the conversation, or a person can ask. That's perfect; it means people will learn.
Granted.


2. I never brought up "I've always known", I am talking about people shooting down the Woman In Man's Body thing. Just because these concepts are connected for you (specific you), does not mean they are connected for everyone. The fact that this made sense to you but looks like you're changing the topic to me is proof. It feeds back into my point about why we accept that our own standbys have broad contextual meaning but other people must be taken literally.
Actually, to me, I'm not changing the topic. My first intervention what on this exactly, on the dominant, full-blown transnormative narrative. I may be slightly off-topic, and I'm trying to adjust back into the more strict debate that's going on, but I'm not talking mainly about the "vulgarisatio" of dysphoria using the idea of a "wrong body". I do think they are interconnected, because "being in the wrong body", as a trope, is an fundamental part of the latter narrative, but it's not the most problematic part of it.


4. Institutionalization does not make something wrong, it makes it prominent. This is not an argument? It's a statement. There is nothing inherently wrong with Institutionalization. It can potentially make it harder to receive treatment but has absolutely nothing at all whatsoever to do with how a person feels and talks in private with their friends and acquaintances. This is thought policing. It is saying do not get into a habit with me, your friend, because if you later fall into this habit with your doctor, it will cause problems.

The fact that a specific narrative is recognized by institutions, but not others, is a problem. It doesn't make any narrative wrong or bad, but it makes it problematic -- the problem being less in the different narratives themselves, or in who used them for themselves, than in how they are treated socially by other people.


I feel my question still stands. But I am being rude; I am asking you why it is okay to allow yourself nuance and allusion, but not others, to make you question your own actions. I would like an answer, but really I just want people to think about it and then extend this level of courtesy and understanding towards others that they have for themselves. The first words out of anyone when you disagree should probably be "what do you mean?", and if they aren't, well, we end up here.
To answer somewhat the original question: Obviously, I understand that when people just state that they are "a woman trapped in a man's body", there may be a lot of content behind it. However, the way it's expressed uses, say, an "essentialist" vehicle. I don't think using "essentialist" needs nuance, because the content is relatively well defined and accessible, especially in context (we're not discussing metaphysics), whereas the "wrong body" topos always verges on essentialist as a manner of expressing something, even though what is behind it might not be.

I'm not saying I know any better way to express this feeling, and that it should be rejected outright, but recognizing the problematic aspects of what we do is important -- just as recognizing that Tolkien's universe is sexist is important, but doesn't mean I should burn my books.


For what it's worth, I think you're getting the brunt of this because you're the Face, enrico. You're te person on together side presenting a reasonable argument and willing to have a discussion; as such, I doubt any vitriol is being directed at you personally. I do hope you don't leave this discussion feeling bad.
I won't leave, but I do feel bad about making other people feel bad.

[The Succubus]

Random thought for you.

Sometimes it helps to remember that life doesn't exist as a series of absolutes or binaries. You folks in particular should appreciate that things often (incorrectly) perceived as being binary, like gender, are often much more analogue in nature. Sometimes two completely contradictory things can exist at the same time.

This is why generalisations and assumed generalisations aren't helpful because they often come across as dismissive. We keep an open mind for things like gender and sexuality - try applying thinking like that to other situations and you might gain a new perspective on something. :smallsmile:

[SiuiS]

Okay.

Key points I see are that one person's expression is being conflated with a narrative in abstract, which is mucking conversation and hurting feelings; that discussion and direction is (and believe me, the irony of the statement is not lost on me) too caught up in catering to cissexual paradigms; and that the general hypocrisy of conversation is in full force but not acknowledged, specifically in that any given group is willing to use expressions as 'vehicles of understanding' but refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of any other expressions also beig vehicles of understanding.


I think that's quite a lot of progress, honestly. I'll elaborate on the second point later, but I want to think it through first. I need to use just the right language or I risk losing my point in self-flanderization.


Full disclosure: I'm also more inclined to femme stuff. I'm in pretty much the same heels as Zorg, only I got the cheap knock-off version because Zorg, she got swagger. This of course made me feel really bad because the last person I recall talking about what degree to which this sort of expression could just be internalized binary norms was me. :smallredface:

[The Succubus]

Full disclosure: I'm also more inclined to femme stuff. I'm in pretty much the same heels as Zorg, only I got the cheap knock-off version because Zorg, she got swagger. This of course made me feel really bad because the last person I recall talking about what degree to which this sort of expression could just be internalized binary norms was me. :smallredface:

Zorg has all the swagger. <3

[Astrella]

I spent ten hours at the hospital today! I woke up in agonizing pain at like 5 am, threw up a bunch, the pain only got worse and since it was really early in the morning I called emergency and got taken to the hospital. There it turned out I had a kidney stone, which is gone now and no more pain. Also low potassium in my blood apparently, so spent several hours hooked up to a baxter and heart rate monitors. (Apparently my anti-androgens are to blame? Probably my eating troubles too. Have to take extra potassium now.) And then I got to walk back in pj bottoms and slippers. (Which wasn't that bad to be honest.)

Except for the really bad pain it wasn't that bad, and I got gendered female several times by people~ I was wearing a girly top, but was all stubbly, and my hair was messy and my throat was still red from laser yesterday, so it was still a nice surprise. I actually didn't realize they were talking about me several times cause I wasn't really expecting to be gendered female at the hospital.

[Jormengand]

Except for the really bad pain it wasn't that bad, and I got gendered female several times by people~ I was wearing a girly top, but was all stubbly, and my hair was messy and my throat was still red from laser yesterday, so it was still a nice surprise. I actually didn't realize they were talking about me several times cause I wasn't really expecting to be gendered female at the hospital.

Woo! That's good, even if you didn't exactly have an amazing time.

[noparlpf]

I spent ten hours at the hospital today! I woke up in agonizing pain at like 5 am, threw up a bunch, the pain only got worse and since it was really early in the morning I called emergency and got taken to the hospital. There it turned out I had a kidney stone, which is gone now and no more pain. Also low potassium in my blood apparently, so spent several hours hooked up to a baxter and heart rate monitors. (Apparently my anti-androgens are to blame? Probably my eating troubles too. Have to take extra potassium now.) And then I got to walk back in pj bottoms and slippers. (Which wasn't that bad to be honest.)

Except for the really bad pain it wasn't that bad, and I got gendered female several times by people~ I was wearing a girly top, but was all stubbly, and my hair was messy and my throat was still red from laser yesterday, so it was still a nice surprise. I actually didn't realize they were talking about me several times cause I wasn't really expecting to be gendered female at the hospital.

Well crap. Glad you're alright now anyway. And it's nice to be gendered correctly. :smallsmile:

[Delusion]

I spent ten hours at the hospital today! I woke up in agonizing pain at like 5 am, threw up a bunch, the pain only got worse and since it was really early in the morning I called emergency and got taken to the hospital. There it turned out I had a kidney stone, which is gone now and no more pain. Also low potassium in my blood apparently, so spent several hours hooked up to a baxter and heart rate monitors. (Apparently my anti-androgens are to blame? Probably my eating troubles too. Have to take extra potassium now.) And then I got to walk back in pj bottoms and slippers. (Which wasn't that bad to be honest.)

Except for the really bad pain it wasn't that bad, and I got gendered female several times by people~ I was wearing a girly top, but was all stubbly, and my hair was messy and my throat was still red from laser yesterday, so it was still a nice surprise. I actually didn't realize they were talking about me several times cause I wasn't really expecting to be gendered female at the hospital.

Glad you are alright. Must have been scary to wake up in pain.

[Astrella]

Glad you are alright. Must have been scary to wake up in pain.

It was weird cause I was hurting in my dream and then I woke up and was also in pain, which made for a really weird "is this reality" moment.

[cavalieredraghi]

That was... somewhat disturbing, cab. Just a bit.
But hooray forr trans people transitioning! (Even if they do go before Helio :smallfrown:)
who's Cab?

*rains squirrels on everyone* <o_o> Hi again all!

QUOTE]

hey Squirrels. *starts to pet a couple* hi Mist!

[QUOTE=Lycunadari;16595829]Aaand I'm ill again. Sigh. I just hope I didn't catch whatever it is my co-worker has, he's hardly been able to eat anything for days now and suffers from constant headaches. :smalleek:
I'm also feeling dysphoric again. Can I have hugs?

you may always have hugs. *hugs* now get better little one!


I spent ten hours at the hospital today! I woke up in agonizing pain at like 5 am, threw up a bunch, the pain only got worse and since it was really early in the morning I called emergency and got taken to the hospital. There it turned out I had a kidney stone, which is gone now and no more pain. Also low potassium in my blood apparently, so spent several hours hooked up to a baxter and heart rate monitors. (Apparently my anti-androgens are to blame? Probably my eating troubles too. Have to take extra potassium now.) And then I got to walk back in pj bottoms and slippers. (Which wasn't that bad to be honest.)

Except for the really bad pain it wasn't that bad, and I got gendered female several times by people~ I was wearing a girly top, but was all stubbly, and my hair was messy and my throat was still red from laser yesterday, so it was still a nice surprise. I actually didn't realize they were talking about me several times cause I wasn't really expecting to be gendered female at the hospital.


I am glad to hear you are feeling better, and Ya for being gendered Female!

[Jormengand]

I have been considering going out somewhere as a girl, but am really, really petrified of meeting someone I know. (Having been in both the major schools in the area, and being relatively well-known, could easily amount to 3k out of the 56k people in the town knowing who I am, and I don't know who a lot of said people are.) A single one of them could result in a really damn awkward situation, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.

But dammit, I wanna be a girl!

I posted this several pages back, and was characteristically ignored. Anyone have any suggestions? Words of encouragement? Anything?

[Mystic Muse]

*rains squirrels on everyone* <o_o> Hi again all!


*Activates anti-Squirrel shield*

None for me, thanks.

[Jormengand]

Oh, and in entirely unrelated news, anyone who hasn't had their daily dose of homophobia (And possible politics trigger warnings will be delighted to hear...

That homosexuality is now a crime in India again. (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Homosexuality-is-criminal-offence-Supreme-Court-rules/articleshow/27208873.cms)

[Delusion]

I posted this several pages back, and was characteristically ignored. Anyone have any suggestions? Words of encouragement? Anything?

Well I read but back then I had no ideas.

Have you thought about doing it in some other town? Like if you have friends you can trust who live far away? I realise it might not be an option but nothing else comes to mind, sorry :smallfrown:

[cavalieredraghi]

I posted this several pages back, and was characteristically ignored. Anyone have any suggestions? Words of encouragement? Anything?

I would say do it. get it over with, and be yourself.

[Lycunadari]

Hey Juniper. It's good that you're ill at the moment because it means I have someone to hug without worrying about them catching my flu.

*hugs*
I don't think being ill makes me resistant to the flu... but I don't care. :P *hugs*

That sucks. Feel better soon. *hugs*
Thanks.

Always.

*Hugs you.*
Always? That's good. *hugs back*

I spent ten hours at the hospital today! I woke up in agonizing pain at like 5 am, threw up a bunch, the pain only got worse and since it was really early in the morning I called emergency and got taken to the hospital. There it turned out I had a kidney stone, which is gone now and no more pain. Also low potassium in my blood apparently, so spent several hours hooked up to a baxter and heart rate monitors. (Apparently my anti-androgens are to blame? Probably my eating troubles too. Have to take extra potassium now.) And then I got to walk back in pj bottoms and slippers. (Which wasn't that bad to be honest.)

Except for the really bad pain it wasn't that bad, and I got gendered female several times by people~ I was wearing a girly top, but was all stubbly, and my hair was messy and my throat was still red from laser yesterday, so it was still a nice surprise. I actually didn't realize they were talking about me several times cause I wasn't really expecting to be gendered female at the hospital.
Uh, that sounds scary. My sister had a similar experience with gallstones last year, I think I was never so worried about someone before. Also, yay on being gendered correctly! :smallsmile:


you may always have hugs. *hugs* now get better little one!

Somehow I really like being called little one. :smallredface:

I posted this several pages back, and was characteristically ignored. Anyone have any suggestions? Words of encouragement? Anything?
I'd say do it. If you meet someone you know, and they comment on your presentation, you can still decide if you trust them enough to come out or make an excuse like you lost a bet or something. Good luck!

– Juniper

[Jormengand]

Well I read but back then I had no ideas.

Have you thought about doing it in some other town? Like if you have friends you can trust who live far away? I realise it might not be an option but nothing else comes to mind, sorry :smallfrown:
I'd say do it. If you meet someone you know, and they comment on your presentation, you can still decide if you trust them enough to come out or make an excuse like you lost a bet or something. Good luck!

– Juniper

Some nice suggestions. Thing is, I'm not sure I can summon the courage to go outside the door, let alone to another town, and if anyone found me like that they wouldn't be taking explanations or excuses - even my mother, one of the nicest, most accepting and most intelligent and generally knowledgeable people in the world, had very little idea what a trans person even was until I told her. I'd rather not have to conduct a random explanation in the middle of nowhere.

I've already been attacked for being bi, so I'm more than a little cautious.

[Miriel]

Full disclosure: I'm also more inclined to femme stuff. I'm in pretty much the same heels as Zorg, only I got the cheap knock-off version because Zorg, she got swagger. This of course made me feel really bad because the last person I recall talking about what degree to which this sort of expression could just be internalized binary norms was me. :smallredface:
In the event that what I said was misunderstood in some ways (which is certain), and perhaps to clarify somethings before the argument can be closed: I'm also much more inclined to femme stuff. My argument was very, very certainly not against this, because yeah.

I should get some sleep.

[Coidzor]

Does that technically make him your ex-boyfriend, or is that not retroactive? :smallconfused:

I had this conversation the other day. Couldn't come to a conclusion between respect for the nature of the relationship and the past or respect for the identity of the other person and respect for one's own identity and sexuality. Best we could think of is that it might be one of those things where it's more up to the individuals and their current relationship than something where hard and fast absolutes apply though.


Well, people are taught that morality is always subjective, which means there are no rules. As such, the path of least resistance is for everyone to be equally terrible human beings.

People are? I thought part of the problem was that so many people are taught that morality was an absolute, objective aspect of reality with the narrow focus of whatever subculture raises them and then they don't learn about differing moral frameworks except as things to be destroyed/dominated. :smallconfused:

[Nix Nihila]

Some nice suggestions. Thing is, I'm not sure I can summon the courage to go outside the door, let alone to another town, and if anyone found me like that they wouldn't be taking explanations or excuses - even my mother, one of the nicest, most accepting and most intelligent and generally knowledgeable people in the world, had very little idea what a trans person even was until I told her. I'd rather not have to conduct a random explanation in the middle of nowhere.

I've already been attacked for being bi, so I'm more than a little cautious.

I think the generally applicable advice in this sort of situation is to work up to it. If going out full-femme sounds absolutely terrifying, maybe try going out with your nails painted. If brightly colored nails are too much, then try using a darker color or bare nails with a glossy top coat. Start wearing things that are a bit more feminine, but still fairly gender neutral. Nicely tailored coats are a fine place to start if it's chilly where you live. Perhaps try using tinted lip balm, or foundation, or curling your eyelashes.

The only way to alleviate your anxiety over this is to start doing the things that make you anxious. It might be terrifying to wear nail polish in public at first. Someone might make a rude comment. But after a while, it will stop feeling like a big deal, and you can move on to other things.

[Mono Vertigo]

Best we could think of is that it might be one of those things where it's more up to the individuals and their current relationship than something where hard and fast absolutes apply though.


I feel like there really is a lot of "those things".

[bryn0528]

Been a while, and, like before, I just needed somewhere to get all my thoughts out.
I've been moving around a lot, but everything's been a bit more stable. No day to day shenanigans, but I haven't stayed anywhere much longer than a week. It makes it really hard to settle down when you're moving so much, but the last place I stayed I felt like it was pretty good. A nice environment, a great guy, and it's the closest I've ever been to KP.

It's weird, how, sometimes, when you're the closest to someone physically but across the universe in terms of feelings.

I know and understand that KP and I are not together or really even technically dating, but I said those miserable three words and now it's all out in the open and ugly. But then he was gone for a few days and I see how stupid it is for me to think that I've got my life together at this point. That I could make things magically work out for us and that we could be happy.

I wanted to go home.

Of course, when he got back and I said this to him, he said he wanted to help me with a ticket. I know this is backwards logic, but I didn't want to hear him say that. Oh right, because before, he said, in order for me to be happy, I had to find a job (obviously) and a man (not referring to himself). It's between these two wrong sorts of things to say that really show me how one sided my love for KP is. He got mad when I said I didn't want his help (not to go home; I wanted him to be my reason to stay).

I called my mom. We bought a Greyhound ticket back for home.

KP found out about the ticket from Facebook, since I posted to let my friends that I had "given up" and that I was coming back. Of course everyone's excited and posting their support (I have amazing friends, I really do).

KP tells me that my leaving is breaking his heart. Which is the exact sort of thing he could have said to keep me from buying the ticket in the first place. I was so mad, and then I just felt defeated. I went by his house to say goodbye, but it was kind of awkward and I got a little snot on his shirt.

I'm not sure what the biggest mistake I've made, leaving in the first place or leaving now. I just know that I've never felt so heartbroken before. Sure, I've had some really crappy relationships in the past and they've left me hurt and broken and wanting to die, but I'm thinking to myself now that not even death could relieve how I feel. It's almost uplifting, in its own perverse sort of way.

But it's too late now. I have my ticket, and I'm going home. It hurts to stay and it hurts to leave, so I'm going to get my life in order at least first. I don't know how long it'll take me, but I think that I have to do it for him. So that I can come back and we can do this right. I have to do it for him, but I also have to do this, more importantly, for myself.

I left him a gift, at least, in the form of Neil Gaimain's The Ocean at the End of the Lane. My sister gave it to me, just before I first left, and so now I'm passing it on. I hope it is a good gift. In the cover I wrote him a note; "To KP, a reminder that not every journey is for ever. Love Raymond"

I hope it is a good gift.

[DMwithoutPC's]

in regards to something said... four pages ago (jeesh, the thread is hard to keep up with if you don't check it every day/hour)


It's in the first post of every thread for several back. :p

oh, I feel pretty silly now. However, awesome it's in the first post.

-Jakob

[Remmirath]

Well, people are taught that morality is always subjective, which means there are no rules. As such, the path of least resistance is for everyone to be equally terrible human beings.

True. Or occasionally they are taught to believe that one form of subjective morality is completely objective, and that hasn't got us anywhere good, either. Perhaps some day someone will figure out the best way to deal with teaching people about morality, but it doesn't seem terribly likely.


Part of why I want children, really. To raise decent people to go into the world. The world's gonna need it and I've got a limited duration myself.

A worthy goal.


My trans friend (who is in her 20s) is no longer allowed in the family house in feminine attire, yet is expected to drop everything at a moment's notice to babysit her siblings (aged 13, 16 and 20), I'm pretty sure for free, because apparently her parents don't trust teenagers to be at home alone.
Parenting: You're Doing It Wrong :mad:

I used to walk home through bushland on my own at 10, and my 14 year old nephew has been babysitting his now-4 year old brother all on his own for about the past 2 or 3 years. Maybe this isn't normal, but I still think that if you can't trust a 13, 16 and 20 year old to be home alone, then you have seriously screwed up as a parent somewhere along the line.
Plus, you know, the whole forcing someone to always be around you to the point where they give up renting their own apartment yet forbidding them from wearing what they want or being who they are or spending time with the people they want to (her boyfriend's banned from the house, too) when they do so, thing.

Oh, but on the positive end of this sort of thing: When I told my dad I had a date, he asked me whether it was with a boy or a girl :smallbiggrin:

Wow, that is pretty messed up, I would say. Particularly with the whole denying someone's identity and then expecting them to help out constantly, but not trusting people to be home alone at those ages is also pretty ridiculous. Thirteen I can almost see. Almost. If one is being particularly paranoid (I tend to assume people can look after themselves at least for short periods of time since nine or so, possibly earlier depending on the person). Sixteen, though? And by twenty one could've moved out and be living alone.

The positive thing is nice, though.


This is my main criticism against "die cis scum". Any point you could make with it can be done better in a way that doesn't come across as "You're not a minority? Then **** you, you deserve to die!". Which is a sentiment I see way too often in the LGBTA+ community. Given all we've suffered, we should know better than that! :smallfurious:

Yeah, the points are quite valid and need to be made, but I'm sure that's not the best way to go about it. Eh. Just seems as though it's likely initially off-putting enough to most people that they don't really get the right message. People are also notoriously poor at not taking things at face value over the internet (or other things, for that matter).



So I encourage everyone here to not take everything they read at its face value. If someone writes something you find offensive, or slanderous, or just plain wrong, ask them about it. Don't just slam into them full throttle. Because they may not have intended to insult you, and just used a wrong word, or failed to make their point clearly enough. We have to keep in mind that we all need to have open minds in order to ask others to open their minds to our ideas.

Yes, this is a very good idea.


Aaand I'm ill again. Sigh. I just hope I didn't catch whatever it is my co-worker has, he's hardly been able to eat anything for days now and suffers from constant headaches. :smalleek:
I'm also feeling dysphoric again. Can I have hugs?

Surely. I hope you feel better soon and didn't get that illness your co-worker has, because that sounds pretty nasty.


I spent ten hours at the hospital today! I woke up in agonizing pain at like 5 am, threw up a bunch, the pain only got worse and since it was really early in the morning I called emergency and got taken to the hospital. There it turned out I had a kidney stone, which is gone now and no more pain. Also low potassium in my blood apparently, so spent several hours hooked up to a baxter and heart rate monitors. (Apparently my anti-androgens are to blame? Probably my eating troubles too. Have to take extra potassium now.) And then I got to walk back in pj bottoms and slippers. (Which wasn't that bad to be honest.)

Except for the really bad pain it wasn't that bad, and I got gendered female several times by people~ I was wearing a girly top, but was all stubbly, and my hair was messy and my throat was still red from laser yesterday, so it was still a nice surprise. I actually didn't realize they were talking about me several times cause I wasn't really expecting to be gendered female at the hospital.

That sounds quite painful, but I'm glad that you're all right, and that things went fairly well. It's good that they got your gender right.


I posted this several pages back, and was characteristically ignored. Anyone have any suggestions? Words of encouragement? Anything?

I suppose you could try to find somewhere that you aren't likely to run into people you know, but if you know enough people, that's pretty hard. Other than that, all I can say is that if it's something you want to do, you should go for it!

Do you have anyone you trust enough to go with you? I don't know if that would help you, but if I'm worried about going out and doing something, I usually try to find someone to go with me.


And bryn0528 -- I think you made the right choice in a difficult situation, and I wish you well.

[Heliomance]

Okay, my friend's gone private, he hasn't actually got his Charing Cross appointment through. I guess I can put my murder plans on hold for a while.

In irritating news, I phoned CX up yesterday to ask about when I'd be getting my appointment letter, and got told they're not processing any more this year >_>

[noparlpf]

Okay, my friend's gone private, he hasn't actually got his Charing Cross appointment through. I guess I can put my murder plans on hold for a while.

In irritating news, I phoned CX up yesterday to ask about when I'd be getting my appointment letter, and got told they're not processing any more this year >_>

This is beyond ridiculous by now, geez.

[Jaycemonde]

This is beyond ridiculous by now, geez.

Charing Cross is really starting to sound like some kind of minimum-quota funding hole that prefers gatekeeping to helping people. Like, they'll set up as few appointments as they need to keep getting money and donations, then they'll just deny everyone else for ****s 'n' giggles.

[cavalieredraghi]

Okay, my friend's gone private, he hasn't actually got his Charing Cross appointment through. I guess I can put my murder plans on hold for a while.

In irritating news, I phoned CX up yesterday to ask about when I'd be getting my appointment letter, and got told they're not processing any more this year >_>

you sure you want to hold off on the murder? :smallconfused: fine. I will go put the boat away. the joke is I live in a desert why would I have a boat. :smallbiggrin:

[KenderWizard]

I don't particularly appreciate being told part of my identity is cissexist crap.

and to segue into a longer rant not directed at anyone in particular - this sort of thing is why I don't have much to do with the LGBT+ community outsdie this thread. I mean we're proclaiming we're "all inclusive" but how many times have I been shamed for being traditionally femme (hur, makeup is evul, death to traditional gender roles, if you're trans and want to be pretty you're internalising cissexism and misogyny!), been made to feel like I'm wrong for talking about how I'm upset I never got to wear a pretty dress for my 16th birthday, or to graduation, or that I had to hide away learning to walk in heels rather than have fun doing it. Made to feel like I'm a traitor or not properly trans/bi/feminist for wanting to be pretty and cute. When media is discussed and everyone homes in on how problematic it is that they're showing things I've always dreamt of having - going from my quiet, sullen existence to being a beautiful vibrant princess is the stuff my dreams were made of, yet seein ghtat is "problematic". Yes, I know the problem is that that is the only story given, but it is so hard to be in the LGBT+ / feminist culture when everything seems to be attacking your identity for being to blame.
I have had to live my whole ****ing life being a victim of the patriarchy and transphobia, so don't go telling me what I feel is wrong. Yes, I want to have a partner who'll look after me; yes, the idea of wearing dresses, doing my makeup and being a housewife appeals to me; and, yes, I sometimes do feel like a woman in a man's body.
But you know what? That's me and if someone's experience of being Trans, or a lesbian, or a woman is different I don't care so long as they are living that way willingly. And I've been in a relationship where I was abused and raped, so I ****ing know the difference between being happily not wearing the pants and the world ****ing me over.

Labels should be descriptive, not proscriptive, and if someone is comfortable with one and you don't like it - go **** yourself.

Hear hear! The sexism is totally ruining stereotypically "girly" things. It's so hard to make the distinction of "heels are bad when they're enforced on people, even if that's just really subtle enforcement that's really hard to pick apart; some people/women might just 'like' heels because they have always been told to and women who wear them get treated 'better' than women who don't ... but some people/women genuinely do like them and also no matter what way you like them, you should be allowed wear them, it's just maybe we can give less of that message to the next generation". It's way easier to say "heels are forced on women, they're sexist". Sigh.


Can I have some hugs? I'm getting gender dysphoria a lot more often than usual, and now I seem to be getting depressed. I'm getting bouts of hopelessness, and boredom, and I don't seem to have any appetite. I'm dizzy, but that only seems to be when I lie down, so I think it's unrelated.

Well, if the hugs don't work, I'd say see a doctor. You might have some imbalance; either mental or physical, that's causing the loss of appetite, the lethargy, and the dizziness.


I spent ten hours at the hospital today! I woke up in agonizing pain at like 5 am, threw up a bunch, the pain only got worse and since it was really early in the morning I called emergency and got taken to the hospital. There it turned out I had a kidney stone, which is gone now and no more pain. Also low potassium in my blood apparently, so spent several hours hooked up to a baxter and heart rate monitors. (Apparently my anti-androgens are to blame? Probably my eating troubles too. Have to take extra potassium now.) And then I got to walk back in pj bottoms and slippers. (Which wasn't that bad to be honest.)

Except for the really bad pain it wasn't that bad, and I got gendered female several times by people~ I was wearing a girly top, but was all stubbly, and my hair was messy and my throat was still red from laser yesterday, so it was still a nice surprise. I actually didn't realize they were talking about me several times cause I wasn't really expecting to be gendered female at the hospital.

... So... a mixed day, then? I'm really glad you're feeling better, and yay correct-gendering!


It was weird cause I was hurting in my dream and then I woke up and was also in pain, which made for a really weird "is this reality" moment.

Ooh, I've had this! It's weeeeeird. It was my leg spasming like mad.


I posted this several pages back, and was characteristically ignored. Anyone have any suggestions? Words of encouragement? Anything?

((hugs)) We're not meaning to ignore you, hon.

I'd say ... build up to it, see if you can go out with a friend, and go for it.

[Proud Tortoise]

Hear hear! The sexism is totally ruining stereotypically "girly" things. It's so hard to make the distinction of "heels are bad when they're enforced on people, even if that's just really subtle enforcement that's really hard to pick apart; some people/women might just 'like' heels because they have always been told to and women who wear them get treated 'better' than women who don't ... but some people/women genuinely do like them and also no matter what way you like them, you should be allowed wear them, it's just maybe we can give less of that message to the next generation". It's way easier to say "heels are forced on women, they're sexist". Sigh.

Heels look painful. Actually, I think my mother had to have surgery one time as a result of wearing high heels. ☼c☼

[Miriel]

Hear hear! The sexism is totally ruining stereotypically "girly" things. It's so hard to make the distinction of "heels are bad when they're enforced on people, even if that's just really subtle enforcement that's really hard to pick apart; some people/women might just 'like' heels because they have always been told to and women who wear them get treated 'better' than women who don't ... but some people/women genuinely do like them and also no matter what way you like them, you should be allowed wear them, it's just maybe we can give less of that message to the next generation". It's way easier to say "heels are forced on women, they're sexist". Sigh.
It's also not every single, individual woman's task to break said enforcement. Potentially sexist or no, we still have to lived in a world where our success and happiness derives at least partly from how we cater to other people's expectations.

[Graustein]

Snipped because wow long post don't want to clutter things up

There's nothing you said here that I didn't appreciate! I feel like that doge meme that's going around tumblr at the moment. Such helpful, much supportive, wow, thank.

I found it all really helpful and shaved this morning the way you advised. No concealer or lipstick or foundation since I don't have any. You'd think shaving against the grain for a closer shave would have occurred to me, like, ever, but it hasn't. I always went with the grain because the physical sensation of shaving is, for me, really stupidly unpleasant... that's what I mean by hatred of shaving. That and I almost always cut myself painfully so I procrastinate shaving by a few days or even a whole week, which makes it even more unpleasant when I get around to it and... yeah. When disposable income is a thing, I fully intend to zap all the hair off my face.

As for labels, personally, I think I'll just use whichever fits how I'm feeling at the time, which is usually either femme male or genderqueer. Which probably all-up just points to genderfluid, but hey. Labels are only as useful as they are communicative, so.

On a positive note, I had a great femmey day today! I volunteer at an op shop in the queer district in my city, and I went there today with sparkly purple nail polish and really really baggy pants and an oversized T-shirt, which adds up to a really nice flowy look that I love. I bought some sparkly jewellery and wore a bright pink sparkly shawl the whole day and I didn't have to monitor my body language there like I sometimes have to and it was great!

Also, I notice a lot of people are wanting hugs, so hugs and affectionate pats for all of you!

[turkishproverb]

Sigh. Another job fell through. I'm beginning to think one of my recommendations is saying something about certain things. :smallmad:

[HMS Sophia]

Okay, my friend's gone private, he hasn't actually got his Charing Cross appointment through. I guess I can put my murder plans on hold for a while.

In irritating news, I phoned CX up yesterday to ask about when I'd be getting my appointment letter, and got told they're not processing any more this year >_>

If it makes you feel any better... well, it probably wont but we can share the pain, Leeds told me back in July that I wouldn't be getting an appointment until at least the 2014 financial year. So you're not alone in that one.

EDIT: Thinking about this... If a clinic is out of funding for clients by July (That's four months after the start of the FY) then there is something seriously wrong either with it's budget or its budgeting... and I'm guessing the former. Raise your hand if you're surprised at a gender clinic having poor funding (I'm expecting crickets, people)...

[FallenEco]

Hello everyone, it's been months I'm working on catching up, but I'm a thread behind. I hope you've all bee well in my absence. That said, Heliomance and HMS Sophia you have my sympathies.

I'd also like to take a moment to welcome everyone who joined while I was away.

[Astrella]

Thanks everyone for the nice words~


Threads for the thread god! Posts for the post throne!

I have been considering going out somewhere as a girl, but am really, really petrified of meeting someone I know. (Having been in both the major schools in the area, and being relatively well-known, could easily amount to 3k out of the 56k people in the town knowing who I am, and I don't know who a lot of said people are.) A single one of them could result in a really damn awkward situation, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.

But dammit, I wanna be a girl!

I'm going to second Nix, I think. Going out fully presenting is really daunting, so doing little things like wearing nail polish or something under your clothes can help build up courage. I still don't really present a lot, but I try to do something femme-y with my presentation at least everytime I go out and it helps.


Been a while, and, like before, I just needed somewhere to get all my thoughts out.
I've been moving around a lot, but everything's been a bit more stable. No day to day shenanigans, but I haven't stayed anywhere much longer than a week. It makes it really hard to settle down when you're moving so much, but the last place I stayed I felt like it was pretty good. A nice environment, a great guy, and it's the closest I've ever been to KP.

It's weird, how, sometimes, when you're the closest to someone physically but across the universe in terms of feelings.

I know and understand that KP and I are not together or really even technically dating, but I said those miserable three words and now it's all out in the open and ugly. But then he was gone for a few days and I see how stupid it is for me to think that I've got my life together at this point. That I could make things magically work out for us and that we could be happy.

I wanted to go home.

Of course, when he got back and I said this to him, he said he wanted to help me with a ticket. I know this is backwards logic, but I didn't want to hear him say that. Oh right, because before, he said, in order for me to be happy, I had to find a job (obviously) and a man (not referring to himself). It's between these two wrong sorts of things to say that really show me how one sided my love for KP is. He got mad when I said I didn't want his help (not to go home; I wanted him to be my reason to stay).

I called my mom. We bought a Greyhound ticket back for home.

KP found out about the ticket from Facebook, since I posted to let my friends that I had "given up" and that I was coming back. Of course everyone's excited and posting their support (I have amazing friends, I really do).

KP tells me that my leaving is breaking his heart. Which is the exact sort of thing he could have said to keep me from buying the ticket in the first place. I was so mad, and then I just felt defeated. I went by his house to say goodbye, but it was kind of awkward and I got a little snot on his shirt.

I'm not sure what the biggest mistake I've made, leaving in the first place or leaving now. I just know that I've never felt so heartbroken before. Sure, I've had some really crappy relationships in the past and they've left me hurt and broken and wanting to die, but I'm thinking to myself now that not even death could relieve how I feel. It's almost uplifting, in its own perverse sort of way.

But it's too late now. I have my ticket, and I'm going home. It hurts to stay and it hurts to leave, so I'm going to get my life in order at least first. I don't know how long it'll take me, but I think that I have to do it for him. So that I can come back and we can do this right. I have to do it for him, but I also have to do this, more importantly, for myself.

I left him a gift, at least, in the form of Neil Gaimain's The Ocean at the End of the Lane. My sister gave it to me, just before I first left, and so now I'm passing it on. I hope it is a good gift. In the cover I wrote him a note; "To KP, a reminder that not every journey is for ever. Love Raymond"

I hope it is a good gift.

I don't really know what to say, sorry you're hurting so much. :c


Okay, my friend's gone private, he hasn't actually got his Charing Cross appointment through. I guess I can put my murder plans on hold for a while.

In irritating news, I phoned CX up yesterday to ask about when I'd be getting my appointment letter, and got told they're not processing any more this year >_>

Ugh, the NHS sounds so frustrating to deal with. :/

[HMS Sophia]

Ugh, the NHS sounds so frustrating to deal with. :/

Sometimes the NHS can be just awesome. They've done so much for me and mine over the years, and I'll never begrudge free, easily accessible healthcare. But sometimes, it's a massive PITA, especially when dealing with an underfunded and personally vital service.
Hell, the mental health services are the same. Underfunded I mean. When I was seen as a young adult in the mental health services (I was 17 and had... issues) I was treated by a trainee GP, not any sort of psych specialist. Now, I don't know what his training was. But considering that title....
So yeah. NHS can be awesome. It can be awfully awful.

[Delusion]

If it makes you feel any better... well, it probably wont but we can share the pain, Leeds told me back in July that I wouldn't be getting an appointment until at least the 2014 financial year. So you're not alone in that one.



In 2014?!? That absolutely reprehensible. And here I was thinking of how ours was bad :smallfrown:

[Miriel]

There's nothing you said here that I didn't appreciate! I feel like that doge meme that's going around tumblr at the moment. Such helpful, much supportive, wow, thank.

I found it all really helpful and shaved this morning the way you advised. No concealer or lipstick or foundation since I don't have any. You'd think shaving against the grain for a closer shave would have occurred to me, like, ever, but it hasn't. I always went with the grain because the physical sensation of shaving is, for me, really stupidly unpleasant... that's what I mean by hatred of shaving. That and I almost always cut myself painfully so I procrastinate shaving by a few days or even a whole week, which makes it even more unpleasant when I get around to it and... yeah. When disposable income is a thing, I fully intend to zap all the hair off my face.

As for labels, personally, I think I'll just use whichever fits how I'm feeling at the time, which is usually either femme male or genderqueer. Which probably all-up just points to genderfluid, but hey. Labels are only as useful as they are communicative, so.

On a positive note, I had a great femmey day today! I volunteer at an op shop in the queer district in my city, and I went there today with sparkly purple nail polish and really really baggy pants and an oversized T-shirt, which adds up to a really nice flowy look that I love. I bought some sparkly jewellery and wore a bright pink sparkly shawl the whole day and I didn't have to monitor my body language there like I sometimes have to and it was great!

Also, I notice a lot of people are wanting hugs, so hugs and affectionate pats for all of you!
My pleasure! Glad it worked out.

And I understand about hatred of shaving. Although part of that for me, I understand now, was a sort of denial: "No, I'm not male, I can't have a beard, so I don't need to shave, lalala."

*takes hugs and affectionate pats*

[The Succubus]

Ugh, the NHS sounds so frustrating to deal with. :/

Even when you're working in it, the NHS is outstandingly bureaucratic...but then I see people in America being bankrupted for heinous crime of just wanting to stay alive or be healthy. NHS is sluggish...but it could be a lot worse.

[Lord Raziere]

People are? I thought part of the problem was that so many people are taught that morality was an absolute, objective aspect of reality with the narrow focus of whatever subculture raises them and then they don't learn about differing moral frameworks except as things to be destroyed/dominated. :smallconfused:

Hm.

Its occurs to me that the problem with morality, might be that no one can agree upon what is the problem with morality. :smallconfused:

[Colonel Fedora]

Succubus, I really like your blog. It's so charming! It's also informative about the technical aspects of cooking, which I appreciate. I give you six out of six hats.

As for the topics we've covered recently, I think it's important to remember that no identity or presentation is inherently bad. Even if that identity has a harmful monopoly on portrayals, it is the monopoly that is harmful rather than the identity itself.

[SiuiS]

Woo! Woke up late for work, been catching up since!


I had this conversation the other day. Couldn't come to a conclusion between respect for the nature of the relationship and the past or respect for the identity of the other person and respect for one's own identity and sexuality. Best we could think of is that it might be one of those things where it's more up to the individuals and their current relationship than something where hard and fast absolutes apply though.


Word



People are? I thought part of the problem was that so many people are taught that morality was an absolute, objective aspect of reality with the narrow focus of whatever subculture raises them and then they don't learn about differing moral frameworks except as things to be destroyed/dominated. :smallconfused:

I meant literally. If you take a class on ethics and morality, the syllabus is usually that every viewpoint is just as valid as every other viewpoint, and they usually specifically touch on aituations designed to point out the harmful effects if your good intentions.

If you are interested enough in morality to seek out academia on it, academia will quickly dissuade you that it has any concrete value.


Okay, my friend's gone private, he hasn't actually got his Charing Cross appointment through. I guess I can put my murder plans on hold for a while.

Ah, makes sense.



In irritating news, I phoned CX up yesterday to ask about when I'd be getting my appointment letter, and got told they're not processing any more this year >_>

On the plus side, they'll start processing again in three and a half weeks!


Even when you're working in it, the NHS is outstandingly bureaucratic...but then I see people in America being bankrupted for heinous crime of just wanting to stay alive or be healthy. NHS is sluggish...but it could be a lot worse.

Aye.

There's info there, that is really interesting though. Part of the problem is how expensive the proceedings are, not the procedures. Part is insurance. Part is human nature. It's all rather interesting.


Hm.

Its occurs to me that the problem with morality, might be that no one can agree upon what is the problem with morality. :smallconfused:

Probably true!




More actual talking later! Gotta mop the entire building by an hour ago :3

[Lither]

Think I need to rant about what happened just today and ask a question.

So. Family stopped treating me like I had some incurable contagious disease (except sister who never acted like that). Thank goodness I only ever said I was asexual, if I told any more about myself I feel I would have been promptly cast out of the family. Mother even offered to drive me on one of my many walks to the bottle shop. I took it as a subtle way of trying to be nice and show acceptance.

Spent most of the car trip stressing to me that she would be happy if I got a husband or wife. I suppose that's a step up from how it used to be except for the part where I'm asexual and aromantic. I neither intend to marry nor can be convinced to.

After some balancing tricks involving large bottles and cases, I was on my way home when I was dragged into a women's clothes store. That made me feel worse, and knowing it was probably accidental (she doesn't know to my knowledge) helps not a whit.

"Friends" are also getting far too inquisitive. I keep telling them to stop asking but they won't. One said once he found out what I was hiding he'd plaster it all over Facebook. Considering how he normally acts I can't even be sure that was a joke.

How does one deal with people who act like this?

[Delusion]

Think I need to rant about what happened just today and ask a question.

So. Family stopped treating me like I had some incurable contagious disease (except sister who never acted like that). Thank goodness I only ever said I was asexual, if I told any more about myself I feel I would have been promptly cast out of the family. Mother even offered to drive me on one of my many walks to the bottle shop. I took it as a subtle way of trying to be nice and show acceptance.

Spent most of the car trip stressing to me that she would be happy if I got a husband or wife. I suppose that's a step up from how it used to be except for the part where I'm asexual and aromantic. I neither intend to marry nor can be convinced to.

After some balancing tricks involving large bottles and cases, I was on my way home when I was dragged into a women's clothes store. That made me feel worse, and knowing it was probably accidental (she doesn't know to my knowledge) helps not a whit.

"Friends" are also getting far too inquisitive. I keep telling them to stop asking but they won't. One said once he found out what I was hiding he'd plaster it all over Facebook. Considering how he normally acts I can't even be sure that was a joke.

How does one deal with people who act like this?



I have to say your "friends" show a great lack of respect towards your privacy.

Still, I wish you well ^^

[Lentrax]

Think I need to rant about what happened just today and ask a question.

So. Family stopped treating me like I had some incurable contagious disease (except sister who never acted like that). Thank goodness I only ever said I was asexual, if I told any more about myself I feel I would have been promptly cast out of the family. Mother even offered to drive me on one of my many walks to the bottle shop. I took it as a subtle way of trying to be nice and show acceptance.

Spent most of the car trip stressing to me that she would be happy if I got a husband or wife. I suppose that's a step up from how it used to be except for the part where I'm asexual and aromantic. I neither intend to marry nor can be convinced to.

After some balancing tricks involving large bottles and cases, I was on my way home when I was dragged into a women's clothes store. That made me feel worse, and knowing it was probably accidental (she doesn't know to my knowledge) helps not a whit.

"Friends" are also getting far too inquisitive. I keep telling them to stop asking but they won't. One said once he found out what I was hiding he'd plaster it all over Facebook. Considering how he normally acts I can't even be sure that was a joke.

How does one deal with people who act like this?


By getting away from them.

Seriously. Make it plain to them that their questioning is making you extremely uncomfortable, and that they need to stop or else the nature of your friendship will be seriously reconsidered.

[Partysan]

Hear hear! The sexism is totally ruining stereotypically "girly" things. It's so hard to make the distinction of "heels are bad when they're enforced on people, even if that's just really subtle enforcement that's really hard to pick apart; some people/women might just 'like' heels because they have always been told to and women who wear them get treated 'better' than women who don't ... but some people/women genuinely do like them and also no matter what way you like them, you should be allowed wear them, it's just maybe we can give less of that message to the next generation". It's way easier to say "heels are forced on women, they're sexist". Sigh.

The latest Big Picture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXKuF2vFeQo&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL2645246767925511) talked about that. I think it wasn't too bad.

[Delusion]

The latest Big Picture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXKuF2vFeQo&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL2645246767925511) talked about that. I think it wasn't too bad.

That was a very good video. Thanks for sharing it ^^

[Colonel Fedora]

I meant literally. If you take a class on ethics and morality, the syllabus is usually that every viewpoint is just as valid as every other viewpoint, and they usually specifically touch on aituations designed to point out the harmful effects if your good intentions.

If you are interested enough in morality to seek out academia on it, academia will quickly dissuade you that it has any concrete value.


One could make the argument that the vast majority of people do not seek academia for learning ethical values and instead go with whatever they were taught to believe as a child.

Personally, I try to think of it in terms of what is valuable. The three things I value most are human life/health, human agency, and human happiness in that order of importance. (I do consider agency more important than happiness, but I go back and forth on that sometimes)

Thusly, I should look at all of my actions in terms of those values. Will this mean more people are alive free and happy? I'm not actually particularly good at looking at my actions in this light beforehand.

In practice, I tend to avoid stepping on anyones' toes, even if I truly believe that they are espousing a belief I find harmful. Unless it's a social justice issue, in which case I generally feel sufficiently backed up to go on despite peer disapproval. Also, when people seriously upset me, I try to maximize harm to them rather than minimizing the total harm. (I use words instead of punches, but it's still my pride ruling over what I believe to be the correct course of action)

Basically, being moral is hard regardless of what you believe about morality.

[Jormengand]

I'd say ... build up to it, see if you can go out with a friend, and go for it.

A friend? But friends are what other people have.

[cavalieredraghi]

Sigh. Another job fell through. I'm beginning to think one of my recommendations is saying something about certain things. :smallmad:

don't give up Turkish you will find a job soon.

[bluewind95]

FINALLY caught up with thread. There's lots of people I wanted to give hugs to, but I can't remember if I did so last thread, so *hugs* for whoever wanted them, and a bow of empathy to those who didn't.

Lither, those "friends" of yours sound utterly poisonous. You may want to reconsider the nature of your friendship with them. I would find that kind of thing unacceptable, and it seems so do you. It's important to make sure they're aware how this bothers you, too. As for your family... well... they just have to understand. If they won't, that's their thing, and you're not doing any harm, so all the fault lies on them.

[KenderWizard]

The latest Big Picture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXKuF2vFeQo&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL2645246767925511) talked about that. I think it wasn't too bad.

I saw that, it was good. I like Movie Bob, he's got his head on right. I prefer his normal accent to his radio-voice accent, though.


A friend? But friends are what other people have.

Ah. Been there. It does get better! But then, just go for it. Take precautions if you like, go somewhere really busy where you'll blend in, go somewhere you think you're not very likely to meet people, and go for it.

[turkishproverb]

Think I need to rant about what happened just today and ask a question.

So. Family stopped treating me like I had some incurable contagious disease (except sister who never acted like that). Thank goodness I only ever said I was asexual, if I told any more about myself I feel I would have been promptly cast out of the family. Mother even offered to drive me on one of my many walks to the bottle shop. I took it as a subtle way of trying to be nice and show acceptance.

Spent most of the car trip stressing to me that she would be happy if I got a husband or wife. I suppose that's a step up from how it used to be except for the part where I'm asexual and aromantic. I neither intend to marry nor can be convinced to.

After some balancing tricks involving large bottles and cases, I was on my way home when I was dragged into a women's clothes store. That made me feel worse, and knowing it was probably accidental (she doesn't know to my knowledge) helps not a whit.

"Friends" are also getting far too inquisitive. I keep telling them to stop asking but they won't. One said once he found out what I was hiding he'd plaster it all over Facebook. Considering how he normally acts I can't even be sure that was a joke.

How does one deal with people who act like this?



Well, it sounds like your family is trying, but you need to make it clear to your friends that if they keep pressing you'll stop associating with them.


also *hugs if wanted*


don't give up Turkish you will find a job soon.

I doubt it. Certainly not looking good at this rate. :smallfrown:

[Coidzor]

Lither: Seems like a good excuse to tell that person, in no uncertain terms that what they're proposing and how they're acting towards you is profoundly uncool and that you're not going to be able to have anything more to do with them if they're going to treat you like that.


Its occurs to me that the problem with morality, might be that no one can agree upon what is the problem with morality. :smallconfused:

That, ethical systems that are fundamentally in conflict with one another, and ethical systems that go into dogma and don't allow for compromise or pragmatism, especially in the face of calamity or disaster. Amongst others that likely slip my mind or haven't pinged on my radar.


I meant literally. If you take a class on ethics and morality, the syllabus is usually that every viewpoint is just as valid as every other viewpoint, and they usually specifically touch on aituations designed to point out the harmful effects if your good intentions.

That seems like a distinct minority of a minority of people. Like it would mostly just be people who want to either go on to law school or philosophy majors. Maybe some Seminarians, though I suspect those probably get a different version. Possibly some people who are majoring in queer/women's/gender studies. :smallconfused:

Granted, most ethics courses would be comparative anyway, or show the... dialectic of the evolution of ethical philosophy rather than some kind of practical endeavour.


There's info there, that is really interesting though. Part of the problem is how expensive the proceedings are, not the procedures. Part is insurance. Part is human nature. It's all rather interesting.

Administration is always the bulk of costs, whether it be healthcare, government, the general private sector, or charities. :/


Heels look painful. Actually, I think my mother had to have surgery one time as a result of wearing high heels. ☼c☼

Many are painful and I think the very expensive and the very cheap both mutilate feet or have a chance to do so. Sort of a complicated situation.


Sigh. Another job fell through. I'm beginning to think one of my recommendations is saying something about certain things. :smallmad:

Think one of your references is sabotaging you? That's a horrible betrayal. :smallfrown: :smallfurious:


A friend? But friends are what other people have.

Step 1. Acquire friends and a meatspace support network/community.

This step 1 seems to apply to so many things in life... Might even be some kind of axiom.

[Jaycemonde]

So I sort of ended up on a few peoples' hate lists because of an incident on Tumblr. Big surprise, I know, but I bring it up because whenever that next chapter in genderb***h's story [the one about that trans girl who meets her old friend from school and gets taken all around town] comes out I'd like someone to let me know.

If it's not too much trouble, that is. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to see it myself because of ignore lists. I wonder how somebody so hateful and horrible to others can write something so beautiful and uplifting.

[Jormengand]

Step 1. Acquire friends and a meatspace support network/community.

This step 1 seems to apply to so many things in life... Might even be some kind of axiom.

Wow, you're like the oracle. Might I instead suggest "Ascend to godhood" as step 1 of your proceedings? Since you don't seem to be taking into account whether things are actually possible for me to do.

[Astrella]

@Jaycemonde: I'm planning to keep linking them as they come out here in the thread.

[Lentrax]

Step 1: plan for step 2.
Step 2: plan for actual plan.
Step 3: Come up with a better idea.
Step 4: Return to step one.

[Jormengand]

Step 1: plan for step 2.
Step 2: plan for actual plan.
Step 3: Come up with a better idea.
Step 4: Return to step one.

Sounds like a plan. :smallsigh:

[cavalieredraghi]

I doubt it. Certainly not looking good at this rate. :smallfrown:

it is always darkest before dawn. you will get there turk!


So I sort of ended up on a few peoples' hate lists because of an incident on Tumblr. Big surprise, I know, but I bring it up because whenever that next chapter in genderb***h's story [the one about that trans girl who meets her old friend from school and gets taken all around town] comes out I'd like someone to let me know.

If it's not too much trouble, that is. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to see it myself because of ignore lists. I wonder how somebody so hateful and horrible to others can write something so beautiful and uplifting.

maybe the story gets worse? we will all hav ups and downs jayce don't let this thing make you sad.


Wow, you're like the oracle. Might I instead suggest "Ascend to godhood" as step 1 of your proceedings? Since you don't seem to be taking into account whether things are actually possible for me to do.


Sounds like a plan. :smallsigh:

Jor you can do it. I am sure you have someone who is willing to go out with you.

[Coidzor]

Wow, you're like the oracle. Might I instead suggest "Ascend to godhood" as step 1 of your proceedings? Since you don't seem to be taking into account whether things are actually possible for me to do.

It's usually less impossible than we like to tell ourselves, but I don't know your particular situation with intimate detail in order to know one way or another. It is one of those areas where we tend to be blind to it ourselves, which is a bit ironic since it's similar to the way that we're blind to things about ourselves which having friends and close associates and intimate bonds can help pick up and possibly even correct if correction is needed.

More and more though, I see how important having friends and intimate bonds truly are, so I hope that your situation changes sooner rather than later so that you can forge such bonds.

:smallwink: And just for that oracle quip, you're going to have to suffer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN7dYDYfvVg).


So I sort of ended up on a few peoples' hate lists because of an incident on Tumblr. Big surprise, I know, but I bring it up because whenever that next chapter in genderb***h's story [the one about that trans girl who meets her old friend from school and gets taken all around town] comes out I'd like someone to let me know.

If it's not too much trouble, that is. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to see it myself because of ignore lists. I wonder how somebody so hateful and horrible to others can write something so beautiful and uplifting.

Sock puppet tumblr time? :smallconfused: Never was much of one for RSS feeds(I know, so very neo-luddite of me), but would one of those be applicable?

People are horribly contradictory creatures. :/

[turkishproverb]

Think one of your references is sabotaging you? That's a horrible betrayal. :smallfrown: :smallfurious:

It seems a likely possibility. Then again, it could be unintentional sabotage, given the region I live in. I'm wondering if they mentioned something they shouldn't have.


So I sort of ended up on a few peoples' hate lists because of an incident on Tumblr. Big surprise, I know, but I bring it up because whenever that next chapter in genderb***h's story [the one about that trans girl who meets her old friend from school and gets taken all around town] comes out I'd like someone to let me know.

If it's not too much trouble, that is. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to see it myself because of ignore lists. I wonder how somebody so hateful and horrible to others can write something so beautiful and uplifting.

It's tumblr. Things are insane there.

Not sure what to say past that.


it is always darkest before dawn. you will get there turk!

Maybe. It's driving me crazy and is depressing, though.

[TaiLiu]

Sigh. Another job fell through. I'm beginning to think one of my recommendations is saying something about certain things. :smallmad:
That's certainly a possibility. Perhaps you could set up some sort of test to figure out who it is.

Hm.

Its occurs to me that the problem with morality, might be that no one can agree upon what is the problem with morality. :smallconfused:
Mm.

I wonder how somebody so hateful and horrible to others can write something so beautiful and uplifting.
It's impressive, whatever the reason is.

Wow, you're like the oracle. Might I instead suggest "Ascend to godhood" as step 1 of your proceedings? Since you don't seem to be taking into account whether things are actually possible for me to do.
Well, one reason business relationships form is because the businesses believe they are better together than they are apart. It is perfectly possible to apply the same concept to a friendship.

[QueerKitty]

So I sort of ended up on a few peoples' hate lists because of an incident on Tumblr. Big surprise, I know, but I bring it up because whenever that next chapter in genderb***h's story [the one about that trans girl who meets her old friend from school and gets taken all around town] comes out I'd like someone to let me know.

If it's not too much trouble, that is. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to see it myself because of ignore lists. I wonder how somebody so hateful and horrible to others can write something so beautiful and uplifting.

Kinsey is really nice and helpful on top of being a great writer, so you really shouldn't talk about people like that when they can't defend themselves.
edit: Fatphobia isn't "common sense", wow

[Jaycemonde]

Kinsey is really nice and helpful on top of being a great writer, so you really shouldn't talk about people like that when they can't defend themselves.
edit: Fatphobia isn't "common sense", wow

Right.

I'm just gonna leave the forum for a long time now. Have fun with your slightly less horrible and oppressive atmosphere. No point in somebody as hopelessly thoughtless and evil as me being around, after all.

[Proud Tortoise]

Right.

I'm just gonna leave the forum for a long time now. Have fun with your slightly less horrible and oppressive atmosphere. No point in somebody as hopelessly thoughtless and evil as me being around, after all.

You're really not either one of those, and I enjoy reading your posts.

[cavalieredraghi]

Jayce you are not any of those things. I don't want to see you go.

[Jaycemonde]

You're really not either one of those, and I enjoy reading your posts.

Obviously I am. I quite clearly do not care about a single other person in the universe and I am only here to spread hatred and contempt, and I do not have any emotions to hurt.


Jayce you are not any of those things. I don't want to see you go.

Maybe you don't, but someone else sure does. I wouldn't want to oppress them by existing anywhere nearby.

[Miriel]

Obviously I am. I quite clearly do not care about a single other person in the universe and I am only here to spread hatred and contempt, and I do not have any emotions to hurt.
I don't know you very much, but I don't think that's true.

*hug offer*

[TaiLiu]

Maybe you don't, but someone else sure does. I wouldn't want to oppress them by existing anywhere nearby.
Perhaps I misunderstand the situation, but QueerKitty never said you oppressed her at all.

[cavalieredraghi]

Obviously I am. I quite clearly do not care about a single other person in the universe and I am only here to spread hatred and contempt, and I do not have any emotions to hurt.



Maybe you don't, but someone else sure does. I wouldn't want to oppress them by existing anywhere nearby.

you clearly do care, I don't see you spread hatred and contempt. you have a will and a mind to speak it. that is a great thing. I don't want you to leave because of it.

[QueerKitty]

Obviously I am. I quite clearly do not care about a single other person in the universe and I am only here to spread hatred and contempt, and I do not have any emotions to hurt.



Maybe you don't, but someone else sure does. I wouldn't want to oppress them by existing anywhere nearby.

{scrubbed}

[SiuiS]

One could make the argument that the vast majority of people do not seek academia for learning ethical values and instead go with whatever they were taught to believe as a child.

Then I'm giving the wrong impression.

If someone cares enough about ethics to realize they may need to shore theirs up, they have two choices. They either learn from people around them and not develop an explicit understanding – which, by nature of the conversation, means this group of people is excluded from being counted – or they will look into ethics and morality, and the only way to do so is via academic study. It may take the form of googling kantian duty ethics, it may be a dialogue with other armchair philosophers, or it may be a series of classes, whatever.

The end result of that study is either "This one form of morality is clearly best!" Or "these are all equal; these are all subjective; therefore which set of morals I pick don't matter and I may as well switch them around as needed". I've seen it happen, and I've been asking around and findig out about it it for a while. The path of least resistance seems to be "&$*! It, I'm not accountable to anyone anyways".


Personally, I try to think of it in terms of what is valuable. The three things I value most are human life/health, human agency, and human happiness in that order of importance. (I do consider agency more important than happiness, but I go back and forth on that sometimes)

All my philosophy discussions end in awkward silence when people find out I don't value human life as being more important than animal life.


Lither: Seems like a good excuse to tell that person, in no uncertain terms that what they're proposing and how they're acting towards you is profoundly uncool and that you're not going to be able to have anything more to do with them if they're going to treat you like that.

This is much nicer than my way of saying the same thing.



That seems like a distinct minority of a minority of people.

We are talking about a social justice group, specifically how someone can come around to knowing enough about philosophy, rhetoric and abstract thought to come up with an idea that is technically accurate and yet still bat**** wrong. We were already discussing a minority of a minority. I'm just explaining how someone could get there from common roots.

Granted, most ethics courses would be comparative anyway, or show the... dialectic of the evolution of ethical philosophy rather than some kind of practical endeavour.

Also, this level of basic philosophy is apparently standard in all colleges, even vocational and community, so the roots are, indeed, common.



Administration is always the bulk of costs, whether it be healthcare, government, the general private sector, or charities. :/[/wuote]

Yeah. I was gonna start talking about stuff but it's within 3° of politics.

[quote]
Many are painful and I think the very expensive and the very cheap both mutilate feet or have a chance to do so. Sort of a complicated situation.


The issue with heels is a combination of bad ergonomics for looks, wearing them constantly because women aren't allowed to wear anything else (especially back in the day), and self-mutilation by degrees because women have small feet and so you buy the smallest heels that still fit, stick your feet in and hope the swellig isn't too obvious.

Constant extension of the foot will shrink your Achilles' tendon and then you'll have to wear heels. Too high a heel will put weirdly constant pressure into the head of the bones at the balls of your feet. And strapping your body repeatedly for long periods into any constraining device is just bad for you.


So I sort of ended up on a few peoples' hate lists because of an incident on Tumblr. Big surprise, I know, but I bring it up because whenever that next chapter in genderb***h's story [the one about that trans girl who meets her old friend from school and gets taken all around town] comes out I'd like someone to let me know.

If it's not too much trouble, that is. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to see it myself because of ignore lists. I wonder how somebody so hateful and horrible to others can write something so beautiful and uplifting.

Sure, I guess? And people are terrible and wonderful and cannot at all make up their damn minds. It's a thing with them.


That's certainly a possibility. Perhaps you could set up some sort of test to figure out who it is.

Careful. That way lies paranoia. You'll find yourself being that gag character on a sitcom.


Right.

I'm just gonna leave the forum for a long time now. Have fun with your slightly less horrible and oppressive atmosphere. No point in somebody as hopelessly thoughtless and evil as me being around, after all.

What, seriously? Queer Kitty has a history of setting people off, as evidenced by the last thread or so. A one-off remark from a sometimes-antagonist is a bad reason to leave.

Stick around. Just block folks that you have a personality clash with. Things will go much more smoothly. :smallsmile:

[bluewind95]

Jayce, I understand that you're upset, and I understand why. But if you would take a deep breath, you would hopefully see that no one is saying those awful things about you, and if anyone is, it's certainly not everyone. Far from it. Perhaps one person? The rest would think otherwise! Please don't leave because of that.

[Lentrax]

Maybe you don't, but someone else sure does. I wouldn't want to oppress them by existing anywhere nearby.

You should stay. I haven't been oppressed. And I don't see anyone else here having been oppressed either.

[Heliomance]

You should stay. I haven't been oppressed. And I don't see anyone else here having been oppressed either.

Am I a terrible person for only being able to think of that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail right now?

[HMS Sophia]

Am I a terrible person for only being able to think of that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail right now?

Help, I'm being oppressed. Come and see the violence inherent in the system.

----------------------

Jaycemonde, please don't leave. {scrubbed}

----------------------

In other news, I woke up in pain this morning. Called the emergency dentists, got an appoint before work. Got there, they decided to extract. Took about 20 mins.
Now I'm sitting in work, the anaesthesia is wearing off (Which is good, my main role is answering a phone), and I have a hole in my mouth. Certainly an odd start to the day.

[Philemonite]

Right.

I'm just gonna leave the forum for a long time now. Have fun with your slightly less horrible and oppressive atmosphere. No point in somebody as hopelessly thoughtless and evil as me being around, after all.

Don't leave, and don't play the victim please.


{scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}

[Lentrax]

Am I a terrible person for only being able to think of that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail right now?

If I went around calling myself Emperor because some moistened bink lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

[Alad]

"Friends" are also getting far too inquisitive. I keep telling them to stop asking but they won't. One said once he found out what I was hiding he'd plaster it all over Facebook. Considering how he normally acts I can't even be sure that was a joke.

How does one deal with people who act like this?


I suspect. If they are just a tad socially inept and bad at telling the difference between what can be joked about and what cannot then setting a clear boundary of No. this is personal. This is important to me and this is none of your buisness until I choose to tell you about it.

That would be how I would handle it assuming I have confidence in them as a person and
I just feel like they are misjudging the situation and being a tad insensitive. (it sounds to me that they are acting a bit childish and thinking its something that can be joked about. Were it not for the aromantascism (Not a clue how to spell that.) I'd say they thought it was something like hiding a boy/girl friend.

Now of course, if you dont have confidence in them respecting it when you draw a line, its a toxic relationship and you should distance yourself from them in my opinion.

[Philemonite]

Am I a terrible person for only being able to think of that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail right now?

"One day, lad, all this will be yours!"
"What, the curtains?"

[turkishproverb]

That's certainly a possibility. Perhaps you could set up some sort of test to figure out who it is.

I'm not sure how I'd go about that...


Right.

I'm just gonna leave the forum for a long time now. Have fun with your slightly less horrible and oppressive atmosphere. No point in somebody as hopelessly thoughtless and evil as me being around, after all.

Don't leave. WE disagree all the time, that's no reason to leave.


Am I a terrible person for only being able to think of that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail right now?

If you are, so are many others, I suspect. :smallsmile: