Tristalt Question

[LordAshenshield]

Ok so I was thinking of a Tristalt character so I was wondering what would be better.

Psion//Factotum//Fighter (PF)
Factotum//Wizard//Monk
StP Erudite//Factotum//Monk

Ok so say I am making one, one class must be a straight 20, and cannot be used for the purposes of PrCs.
What build would be best out of those or similar ones. A Psionic being who can also kick some serious butt.

[gorfnab]

Is Factotum // Warblade // Wizard an option? Or maybe Factotum // Wizard // Duskblade if ToB is unavailable.

[LordAshenshield]

Well TOB is allowed but I personally prefer Psionics over Casters.

The Factotum//Psion or StP Erudite//(PF)Fighter allows for all good saves full bab, Int Synergy, Full Armor Profs, Weapon Profs, armor training, etc.

[Eldan]

I wouldn't take fighter, personally. Warblade or Psychic Warrior is always a better choice. If you are already going Psion, why not Psion/Warblade/Factotum? Get some Diamond Mind in there, since you'll need concentration anyway, to pump your saves like crazy.

[Vaz]

If StP Erudite is available in your game, be a Psion, but hire his Services every so often, (using your favourite gp generating method) to give you access to every spell in the game.

If you have access to Leadership, make ther cohort a Changeling Wizard/Wyrm Wizard//StP Erudite//X

The Wyrm Wizard makes any spell available for the Wizard, who then makes a scroll for the Erudite to learn as a power, which can then Chirurgeory it into your mind. Use with Linked Power for XPless Dark Chaos Shuffle.

Factotum isn't really needed with a Psion's ability to tell the action economy to sit down and shut up, but it has other benefits; after all, thanks to the Dark Chaos Shuffle, you have NI Inspiration points. There are two cut off points, in my eyes; Factotum 3, or Factotum 11. I prefer Factotum 3, because then you can pick up Cloistered Cleric 1 (for Turn Undead+NI Extra Turning Feats for use with all of the Devotions), Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2 with Kung Fu Genius for Int to AC + everything else. Wu Jen 1/Divine Oracle 10/Incantatrix 3 (the spells aren't important, but the ability to apply Metamagic effect to your Psionics is amazing, especially combined with Psionic using Body Outsider Body Clones. You are immune to Surprise as well, combined with Immediate Action Anticipatory Strike/Greater Celerity with Save or Dies/Save or Suck/Save and Still Suck, No Save + Dies, or my favourite, massively boosted Save and get Teleported 500 years into the future.

This takes you to ECL20 on the Factotum side.

Break down;

(Psion 20)//(Warblade 20)//(Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wu Jen 1/Divine Oracle 10/Incantatrix 3)

Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar for +35 to saves (Diamond Mind save replacers), combined with +23 skill ranks and an Int in the mid 40's nets you around +60 to saves, while the action economy breakage lets you simply make attacks against empty squares.

Of course, combining Incarnum recharge means that PP is never a problem.

[kestrel404]

Ok so I was thinking of a Tristalt character so I was wondering what would be better.

Psion//Factotum//Fighter (PF)
Factotum//Wizard//Monk
StP Erudite//Factotum//Monk

Ok so say I am making one, one class must be a straight 20, and cannot be used for the purposes of PrCs.
What build would be best out of those or similar ones. A Psionic being who can also kick some serious butt.

StP Erudite is perfect for a straight-20 with no PrC, because of its multiclassing restrictions and the fact that it doesn't NEED class features. If you can get the other Erudite ACF that gives them effective Psion specialization and choose 'Spells' as your specialization, then you don't need Arcane casting either.

At which point I'd take either Factotum or Archivist for the second slot and Warblade for the third.

Warblade is strictly better than fighter (even PF fighter) for an int-build thanks to the 4 skills, d12 HD and maneuvers/stances. It gestalts very will with casting classes thanks to the Diamond Mind maneuvers (which are tied to Concentration rolls), and has some of the best non-action maneuvers (boosts, reactions, etc.) which go well with a primary caster.

[LordAshenshield]

Ok explain how psions mess with action economy? Also how is it bad to have further action economy breakage?

I know a handful of those tricks to be honest, care to explain them?
The only reason I am considering fighter over Warblade is that it gets ride of ACP every couple of levels allowing me to make a MWK Mithral armor and not just get -4 off ACP but currently up to a -6 as well as increases the Max Dex by a +2 on top of Mithrals +3.

Also only if you use the action breakage can you get benefit off the Warblades techniques other then Boosts, Counters, or Stances.

[Karnith]

Ok explain how psions mess with action economy?
Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) (an extra, purely mental standard action per round), Fission (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fission.htm) (creating a duplicate of yourself), Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm) (it's like Time Stop), Synchronicity (from Complete Psionic; it lets you ready a standard action without having to spend an action apart from manifesting the power), Anticipatory Strike (from Complete Psionic; allows you to take your turn at a different initiative count), and Linked Power (a metapsionic feat from Complete Psionic; it lets you manifest a power one round and a power on the next round without wasting actions in the second round) are a few of the more basic ways.

[AmberVael]

Ok explain how psions mess with action economy? Also how is it bad to have further action economy breakage?

It's bad. In fact, you don't even need to break it for it to be really powerful. Schism alone is basically a must have for every psion ever.

Also, Temporal Acceleration is one of the most amazing out of the box action powers. You know what's awesome? Time Stop. You know what is more awesome? Time Stop as a level 6 power. You know what is even more awesome? Swift action level 6 Time Stop.

The only reason it isn't chief among the action shenanigan powers is because you can get immediate, readied, and infinite actions with other lower level powers. Seriously, if you want to break the game Synchronicity will do it instantly.

Oh! Also, one power Karnith missed because it is a bit obscure- Sense Danger, from Magic of Eberron. It isn't all that great (but it is still good) until you pick up Synchronicity, at which point it is hilarious.

[LordAshenshield]

Hm I see. So a Psion//Warblade would be very good on his own right?

The Third then could be the Factotum thing but what exactly is all that stuff?
(Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wu Jen 1/Divine Oracle 10/Incantatrix 3)
What exactly is this for?
What does each step give them? I know Factotum gives good Skill Points.

Please understand this is not for a super optimization.

[kestrel404]

Hm I see. So a Psion//Warblade would be very good on his own right?

The Third then could be the Factotum thing but what exactly is all that stuff?
(Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wu Jen 1/Divine Oracle 10/Incantatrix 3)
What exactly is this for?
What does each step give them? I know Factotum gives good Skill Points.

Please understand this is not for a super optimization.

...I have no idea why anyone would DO that. Each of those things are good by themselves...but not in that combination.

Factotum, if you take it, you want to take to 8th level. Honestly, it's good up to 18th level (19th & 20th are a bit of a let down, really).

Incantatrix is something you add to a metamagic build.

Cloistered Cleric is generally taken for skills & to get Knowledge Devotion.

Wu Jen is only really useful to get some of the broken higher level spells unique to that class, and you can snag them though StP Erudite just as easily.

TL;DR: Go with something simpler, you'll have enough options without being super dippy.

Erudite 20//Factotum 20//Warblade 20 and Erudite 20//Archivist 20//Warblade 20 are both super-awesome Tier 0 builds.

[AmberVael]

Hm I see. So a Psion//Warblade would be very good on his own right?
It's plenty good, yeah. There is better stuff you could do in theory, but if you're not doing high optimization this will suit you just fine.


The Third then could be the Factotum thing but what exactly is all that stuff?
(Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wu Jen 1/Divine Oracle 10/Incantatrix 3)
What exactly is this for?
What does each step give them? I know Factotum gives good Skill Points.
Factotum gives you all skills as class skills, good skill points, Cunning Insight/Cunning Knowledge and Brains Over Brawn, which pretty much lets you add your intelligence to everything.

A single Cloistered Cleric level may seem strange, but there is in fact an entire handbook devoted to dipping into Cleric- with the proper sourcebooks, it can be just that good. You can swap out domains for feats, or gain domain powers, and you get turn undead. There are really a lot of benefits it offers for minimal cost (especially minimal in tristalt).

Divine Oracle is apparently being used by Vaz as a way to negate Surprise. 10 levels is a high cost for the ability, but not nearly as high in Tristalt, and if you're shooting for a real powerhouse build it can be really worth it. Plus, it does have other benefits (a non-evasion form of evasion that works while wearing armor, full caster progression, etc).

It's all pretty unnecessary though if you're not going high power. You'd be plenty happy with Psion//Warblade//Factotum, and I really do recommend Psion over Erudite. Yeah, Erudite is more powerful. But Psion is powerful enough, and it isn't completely bonkers in every way like Erudite is. It's simpler, it isn't so poorly worded that there are entire debates over how it is supposed to work, and it doesn't break the game in half quite so easily.

[Red Fel]

Hm I see. So a Psion//Warblade would be very good on his own right?

The Third then could be the Factotum thing but what exactly is all that stuff?
(Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wu Jen 1/Divine Oracle 10/Incantatrix 3)
What exactly is this for?
What does each step give them? I know Factotum gives good Skill Points.

Please understand this is not for a super optimization.

Let's go through the list.

At Factotum 3, you gain Brains over Brawn, which lets you use your Int modifier to Str and Dex checks. You also get Cunning Defense, which lets you add your Int modifier to AC, even in medium/heavy armor. You can also mimic spells as SLAs from Arcane Dilettante, can gain your Int modifier as a bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls and saving throws, and can gain your Factotum level as a bonus to skill checks. Your Int synergies are huge. Factotum is a bit priceless in a tristalt build like this - frankly, you could even go Factotum 20 and be set for everything.

At Cloistered Cleric 1, you gain Knowledge Domain, which you immediately convert into Knowledge Devotion, because skill checks have now become a source of pain for your enemies. You probably take Travel Devotion too, for the kicks, and you can use your TUs to fuel TU-based feats. But even just for Knowledge Devotion, CC1 is fantastic.

At Wu Jen 1, you can Wu Jen's spell list, can re-roll initiative, and get a bonus metamagic feat. It's nice, I guess? I don't know why you want this one specifically, either.

At Divine Oracle 10, you've boosted an existing spellcasting class by 10 levels, gained a form of Evasion that is not impeded by armor, plus you've gained Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and the ability to act in a surprise round. In short, you are untouchable. This is admittedly pretty dad-gum good for your build - you now have the Psion's powers, the Warblade's maneuvers, the Factotum's Int bonuses, and are essentially untouchable even in medium/heavy armor.

Finally, at Incantatrix 3, you've boosted your Wu Jen casting level by 3, gained a metamagic feat, and can see enemies on the ethereal. I'm not really sure why this one is here, to be honest.

As I said above, you could CC1/ Fact 19, or just Fact 20, and be perfectly happy with that leg of the tristalt.

[AmberVael]

At Wu Jen 1, you can Wu Jen's spell list, can re-roll initiative, and get a bonus metamagic feat. It's nice, I guess? I don't know why you want this one specifically, either.

Finally, at Incantatrix 3, you've boosted your Wu Jen casting level by 3, gained a metamagic feat, and can see enemies on the ethereal. I'm not really sure why this one is here, to be honest.

Body Outside Body and Metamagic Effect.

Body Outside Body clones you, multiple times, with no real drawbacks except that they can't cast spells. Anything else though? Fair game. Only the Wu Jen gets it. Of course, if you're going this kinda route you might as well just go all in and get it via Erudite as kestrel suggested.

Metamagic Effect allows such shenanigans as adding Persist to any of your active spells. Like, I dunno. Body Outside Body. Plus lots of other things that will probably be good, but frankly persistent Body Outside Body is reason enough.

[Red Fel]

Body Outside Body and Metamagic Effect.

Body Outside Body clones you, multiple times, with no real drawbacks except that they can't cast spells. Anything else though? Fair game. Only the Wu Jen gets it. Of course, if you're going this kinda route you might as well just go all in and get it via Erudite as kestrel suggested.

Metamagic Effect allows such shenanigans as adding Persist to any of your active spells. Like, I dunno. Body Outside Body. Plus lots of other things that will probably be good, but frankly persistent Body Outside Body is reason enough.

This... This is kind of awesome.

Even if you use magic-psionics transparency and rule that Powers can't be manifested by BOB clones, they can still use Maneuvers - and you've got a lot of those at Warblade 20, which you can refresh as a swift action. And if you don't use the transparency rule, you can also use your Psion powers freely.

Yeah. This one's a bit sick.

[Karnith]

It hasn't been mentioned directly, but there's not a prohibition on Body Outside Body clones using Supernatural abilities, so Metamagic Effect: Persist for everyone!

[otakumick]

Even if there is transparency re:magic/psionics just supernatural transformation your manifesting and thumb your nose at such mundane limitations as body outside body restricting manifesting as well as spells. Cheesy yes, but omelets need cheese.

[LordAshenshield]

I dont know about the clone stuff. It might seriously tick off the dm if i am cloning myself on top of psionic action abuse

[AmberVael]

I dont know about the clone stuff. It might seriously tick off the dm if i am cloning myself on top of psionic action abuse

You think? :smalltongue:

Seriously, just stick with Psion//Factotum//Warblade. It's plenty potent enough and gives you lots of fun things to play with. I was just explaining the various cheesy bits.

[Vaz]

...I have no idea why anyone would DO that. Each of those things are good by themselves...but not in that combination.
Read my post.


Factotum, if you take it, you want to take to 8th level. Honestly, it's good up to 18th level (19th & 20th are a bit of a let down, really).
Cunning Surge is irrelevant when you have a Psion with Infinite PP (or rather, massive PP, with numerous recharge mechanics). As soon as you are able, you manifest Temporal Acceleration, followed by Linked Power Syncro-Syncro.


Incantatrix is something you add to a metamagic build.Psionic Transparency allows you to target Psionic powers with Metamagic effect and Cooperative Metamagic. You already have every Metamagic in the game thanks to XP-less Dark Chaos Shuffle (Linked Power forces the power to trigger in the following turn AND removes the XP-cost). With access to NI clones from Psionic Body Outside Body, every spell in the game is Metamagic'd upon you. You use Alternate Spell Source to advance the Divine Casting.


Cloistered Cleric is generally taken for skills & to get Knowledge Devotion.
You already have Knowledge devotion and all the spells from the Cleric List and Domains. It is for Turn Undead, and starting off a casting advancement. You have NI Turn Undead, so all the Devotion feats (and other abilities which trigger off of Turn Undead trigger all the time).

Combined with Divine Oracle 10 for acting in the surprise round, you can take Immediate Action spell casting; so Anticipatory Strike, or Psionic Greater Celerity, into Time Stop, into Linked Power Synchronicity, etc.


Wu Jen is only really useful to get some of the broken higher level spells unique to that class, and you can snag them though StP Erudite just as easily.
Nope, Wu Jen's Watchful Spirit and all of the feats gives you some fairly decent boosts. You have all of feats anyway, so use them.


TL;DR: Go with something simpler, you'll have enough options without being super dippy.

Erudite 20//Factotum 20//Warblade 20 and Erudite 20//Archivist 20//Warblade 20 are both super-awesome Tier 0 builds.
Anything an Erudite can do, a Psion can do better.

[Schizek]

Do Tristalt this way:

Main Active Side (A)- select From: Wizard, Druid, Cleric,

Action Economy Breaker Side (B)- select From: Ardent with ACFs, Factotum, Psion, Sorcerer

Feat Provider/Passive Side (C) select From: Warblade, Paladin, Hexblade,Swordsage, Warlock, Marshal, Monk, Fighter, Monster classes: Drow, Ghost, Vampire, Outsiders, Templates
If You can multi-class side C as much as possible and retrain feats.

[AmberVael]

Psionic Transparency allows you to target Psionic powers with Metamagic effect and Cooperative Metamagic.
This is a pretty questionable interpretation that I have seen many a number of people disagree with. I also disagree with it. In general, I wouldn't expect this to fly in a game.


Combined with Divine Oracle 10 for acting in the surprise round, you can take Immediate Action spell casting; so Anticipatory Strike, or Psionic Greater Celerity, into Time Stop, into Linked Power Synchronicity, etc.
My previously mentioned Sense Danger makes those ten levels largely irrelevant. Why put 10 levels into a class when you can take a third level power to do it better? Spend 5 points on it, manifest a 1 point power in a surprise round or during the first round of combat as an immediate action. Synchronicity, skip right over Anticipatory Strike and its drawbacks. Done. Toss in something nicer to fill the levels.