Broken 8th level spells?

[Larkas]

Okay, I can remember some pretty broken 7th and 9th level spells, but my mind is drawing a blank trying to remember broken 8th level spells! Please, help me out, Playground! :smallredface:

[Karnith]

Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm), both in the sense of "this is waaaaaay too strong" and in the sense of "how does this even work?"

Greater Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm), like all of its silly little brethren, is pretty absurd.

People get mad at Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) a lot, though I'm not sure that I'd quite call it broken.

[Cruiser1]

Greater Arcane Fusion (Sor 8): Any 1 spell that allows casting 2 spells can result in "Celerity Novas" at best in which you cast most of your spells at once, or infinite actions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15115968&postcount=10) at worst.

Greater Celerity (Sor/Wiz 8): Most focus on the level 4 spell Celerity, but its big brother that allows a full round action or stand action + move action opens up additional options.

Superior Invisibility (Sor/Wiz 8): Like Greater Invisibility, but not even See Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, Blindsight, etc can detect it.

[lsfreak]

Greater Arcane Fusion (Sor 8): Any 1 spell that allows casting 2 spells can result in "Celerity Novas" at best in which you cast most of your spells at once, or infinite actions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15115968&postcount=10) at worst.

I'd argue this is more a general problem of stacking action economy breakers, than greater arcane fusion itself (and in many cases Sanctum Spell stupidity to nest a greater arcane fusion inside a greater arcane fusion). Also look out for arcane spellsurge with greater arcane fusion + metamagicked greater arcane fusion, and any greater arcane fusion metamagicked with Twin/Repeat/Quicken. Really it's the same as synchronicity: plenty of legitimate uses, but combined with other stuff gets silly fast. That's unlike Greater Planar Binding, where at 15th level you need nothing other than the spell and 10 minutes prep time to pull a 17th-level cleric out of thin air.

[Tar Palantir]

Otto's Irresistible Dance is a little above the curve. 2-5 rounds of no-save, just kill me is pretty okay, even if it is (mind-affecting).

[Fax Celestis]

Temporal stasis gets overlooked a lot. Freeze a person in time forever. Even things normally immune to paralysis.

[Emperor Tippy]

Temporal stasis gets overlooked a lot. Freeze a person in time forever. Even things normally immune to paralysis.

I actually prefer that one as a defensive spell, especially if you are casting it in one of the ways that ignore material components.

Party member is about to die, you whack them with Temporal Stasis and they are good until you can get around to healing them. Sure it costs 5K but that is still half the cost of a True Res.

It's also good for holding prisoners for interrogation. Hit them with Temporal Stasis and then, when you want to talk with them, just cast AMF. Inside the AMF the Temporal Stasis is suppressed but as soon as they exit the AMF it goes right back up. This is kinda hilariously fun to do in conjunction with dead magic prison cells and an unconscious enemy. Inside the cell he is awake, aware, and totally fine but is also totally incapable of detecting the Temporal Stasis. Then he escapes the cell and the Temporal Stasis goes back up with no save and no SR. You dump him back in his cell and he wakes up, having no idea why he just can't exit his cell.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I actually prefer that one as a defensive spell, especially if you are casting it in one of the ways that ignore material components.

Party member is about to die, you whack them with Temporal Stasis and they are good until you can get around to healing them. Sure it costs 5K but that is still half the cost of a True Res.

It's also good for holding prisoners for interrogation. Hit them with Temporal Stasis and then, when you want to talk with them, just cast AMF. Inside the AMF the Temporal Stasis is suppressed but as soon as they exit the AMF it goes right back up. This is kinda hilariously fun to do in conjunction with dead magic prison cells and an unconscious enemy. Inside the cell he is awake, aware, and totally fine but is also totally incapable of detecting the Temporal Stasis. Then he escapes the cell and the Temporal Stasis goes back up with no save and no SR. You dump him back in his cell and he wakes up, having no idea why he just can't exit his cell.

Ok, now this I really like. I find most of your stuff boring, but this is really fun.

[Fax Celestis]

Party member is about to die, you whack them with Temporal Stasis and they are good until you can get around to healing them. Sure it costs 5K but that is still half the cost of a True Res.

Could you craft contingent temporal stasis on your teammates to make it freeze them when they're about to die?

[Emperor Tippy]

Could you craft contingent temporal stasis on your teammates to make it freeze them when they're about to die?

Yes, its one of my recommended contingencies at higher levels as in renders you totally immune to harm.

This is especially true if your DM doesn't allow Craft Contingent Timeless Body (an Ardent with the Magic Mantle can craft those) and you are playing at real high levels where one hit will kill you and pretty much everyone is using an attack that prevents resurrection.

Ideally you want a Craft Contingent Temporal Stasis Linked Power True Name Dispel (craftable using a Magic Mantle Ardent and a Spell to Power Erudite) so that the Temporal Stasis is ripped off at the start of your next turn.

[Big Fau]

Yes, its one of my recommended contingencies at higher levels as in renders you totally immune to harm.

This is especially true if your DM doesn't allow Craft Contingent Timeless Body (an Ardent with the Magic Mantle can craft those) and you are playing at real high levels where one hit will kill you and pretty much everyone is using an attack that prevents resurrection.

Ardent isn't necessary. Item crafting works for Psionics as if it were magic, and Craft Contingent Spell is an Item Creation feat. You just need a Psion with the relevant feat and power.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ardent isn't necessary. Item crafting works for Psionics as if it were magic, and Craft Contingent Spell is an Item Creation feat. You just need a Psion with the relevant feat and power.

No, it actually doesn't. Regular Transparency is not anywhere near as broad as a lot of people like to assume. You can't, RAW legally, Craft Contingent a psionic power absent a Magic Mantle Ardent.


When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

That is the sum totality of normal transparency.

SR = PR, Dispel Magic/Psionics can dispel both Magic and Psionics, Detect Magic/Psionics can detect both Magic and Psionics, and Dead Magic/Psionics areas also effect both.

That is all of transparency.

[Big Fau]

No, it actually doesn't. Regular Transparency is not anywhere near as broad as a lot of people like to assume. You can't, RAW legally, Craft Contingent a psionic power absent a Magic Mantle Ardent.

The MiC disagrees.

[Emperor Tippy]

The MiC disagrees.

No, it doesn't.

"Many of the items in this book can also be created by a character
with the appropriate psionic item creation feat.

For the purpose of meeting item prerequisites, a character who has the Craft Psionic Arms and Armor feat is treated as having Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Likewise, a character who has Craft Universal Item meets the feat prerequisite for items that require Craft Wondrous Item.

If an item includes a spell prerequisite, but the effect of the item does not directly implement that spell, then a psionic power of similar flavor can be substituted. If the item replicates a spell effect, then only the psionic version of that spell or a psionic power that replicates the same effect can be used to satisfy the prerequisite. For example, a character can create a helm of teleportation using psionic teleport as a power prerequisite, or energy burstas a power to create a necklace of fireballs.

The prerequisites of some items, such as the eldritch blast required for gauntlets of eldritch energy,have no psionic equivalent, and so cannot be created by a psionic character without the aid of a character who does meet the requirement."

That is all the MiC says. First is only applies to items in the MiC and Craft Contigent Spells are not in the MiC. Second it only applies to Craft Psionic Arms and Armor and Craft Universal Items.

---
You are doing exactly what I was taking issue with, dramatically expanding Transparency without rules support.

The only method of full transparency is a Magic Mantle Ardent. Absent that, transparency is surprisingly limited.

[holywhippet]

Superior Invisibility (Sor/Wiz 8): Like Greater Invisibility, but not even See Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, Blindsight, etc can detect it.

True seeing gets past it though, and given the spell level of greater invisibility it's highly likely someone has it available on the other side. If not then you the caster is probably powerful enough to not need to bother hiding themself with an invisibility spell.

Symbol of insanity is 8th level, and Xykon showed how powerful it can be.

[Larkas]

Nice! Thanks for all the responses, guys!

[Emperor Tippy]

True seeing gets past it though, and given the spell level of greater invisibility it's highly likely someone has it available on the other side. If not then you the caster is probably powerful enough to not need to bother hiding themself with an invisibility spell.

Mindblank. It should be always up already whenever you are casting Superior Invisibility.

[Chronos]

The other way to defeat (or at least, significantly weaken) Superior Invisibility is with a really high Spot check, since the spell says that mundane conditions like leaving footprints can still make you detectable. It's also defeated by the psionic power Touchsight. Still a tough spell to deal with, by any standards, though.

My contribution to the list of broken 8ths is Unearthly Beauty, from BoED. It's a mass save-or-die, that isn't actually a death effect, doesn't have any other tags (like Mind Effecting) with relevant immunities, can affect all kinds of creatures (including undead and constructs), doesn't allow spell resistance, triggers twice for a single casting, and even if something saves, gives you another two save-or-sucks every round of combat.

[eggynack]

My contribution to the list of broken 8ths is Unearthly Beauty, from BoED. It's a mass save-or-die, that isn't actually a death effect, doesn't have any other tags (like Mind Effecting) with relevant immunities, can affect all kinds of creatures (including undead and constructs), doesn't allow spell resistance, triggers twice for a single casting, and even if something saves, gives you another two save-or-sucks every round of combat.
Y'know, I'd originally thought that spell was quite flawed, because it can debuff your party pretty harshly with the blinding beauty effect, but I didn't notice that you can just completely turn that off if it's bad. The fact that enemies have to look at you can be problematic though. I wouldn't call it broken, but it's certainly nice. 8th level druid spells are all about mass SoL, between red tide, frostfell, reverse gravity, and this. I kinda feel like they come three levels late, given that call avalanche is a thing, but these certainly have some advantages over call avalanche.