3.0 vs 3.5 Self Identity CRISIS! (the pain of an optimizer)

[GhengisConrad]

Okay, so I've spent maybe 12 of the last 15 hours reading dnd stuff. The other 4 hours I was sleeping, but dreaming of dnd.

I am having a meltdown here.

I got into DND back in like 2002, before 3.5, and instantly fell in love. My cousin and I dove straight in, and ate up *everything* in the game. We are hardcore RAW optimizers.

When 3.5 came out, we were crushed. A lot of stuff seemed less clear, what was the uncontroversially RAW rule seemed mushy and subjective. We rejected it out of hand for being too discretionary and 'impure'; besides, we really liked our psionic soul-knifes throwing ectoplasmic coccoons and the like.

As I have dived right back into the mix recently, obviously 3.5 has had many years to add attractive new templates and features I am now envious of.

I guess, as I think about it more and more, the whole appeal of being a RAW slave is the 'universality' of it. I really think that personally that is probably what I am so attracted to. The idea of 'discovering' some clever combination of rules that no reasonable person could disagree with. When discretion is involved.... then its just a matter of opinion. If I'm going to be inventing opinions, things spiral out of control into some kind of subjective masterbation... it just doesn't feel like a 'win'.

Even though its always really been simply my cousin and me playing, somehow we have always felt like, somewhere, out there, there is a group of people who MUST agree with the way we play, because, hey, thems the rules and thems the rules. The idea of 'this is a clearly defined style of play accepted by many people' is what gets us off.

I guess, what I'm here for today, what I would like, is someone to make a case for a clear version of 3.5, or maybe some popular 3.25 cult that includes some neato things from 3.5, without the drastic changes to combat rules and rapeing of many RAW subtleties...

I guess I'm looking for a reason to change. I love mephlings. I love half-minotaur (actually all of dragon 313), and I want a reason to peer into Lords of Madness! But I guess we are just too.... weary... or perhaps set in our ways.... I don't know.

Convince me of something! Anything!!

[Falcon X]

I'm one of the experts on rules differences here, but many of us use 3.0 even while playing 3.5. There's little reason why you can't use 3.5 sourcebooks while playing 3.0. Just be able to notice the few discrepancies if they occur and find a way to turn them back to your version of preference.

[OldTrees1]

3.5 includes all 3.5 material and all non obsoleted/replaced/updated 3.0 material.

[eggynack]

3.5 includes all 3.5 material and all non obsoleted/replaced/updated 3.0 material.
Quite so. Some books are just about completely intact, and even the ones that have had most of the material overwritten have some things to offer. For example, I was looking through masters of the wild and found this nifty spell called fire eyes. Light up one of the smoke or fog producing items, and fwammo, one way concealment. It's a zeroth level too, so it's vaguely competitive with snowsight/obscuring snow.

[GhengisConrad]

Quite so. Some books are just about completely intact, and even the ones that have had most of the material overwritten have some things to offer. For example, I was looking through masters of the wild and found this nifty spell called fire eyes. Light up one of the smoke or fog producing items, and fwammo, one way concealment. It's a zeroth level too, so it's vaguely competitive with snowsight/obscuring snow.

Is it so much that legacy versions of the classes are no longer valid, or that updated ones are better and a more clear choice?

What is it that becomes out-right banned? I'd hate to follow a rabbit hole to find out 'oh, now that your 3.5, this isn't really a thing anymore'

[OldTrees1]

Is it so much that legacy versions of the classes are no longer valid, or that updated ones are better and a more clear choice?

What is it that becomes out-right banned? I'd hate to follow a rabbit hole to find out 'oh, now that your 3.5, this isn't really a thing anymore'

Remember how some material got reprinted in 3.0 but with alterations? For example the Knock-down feat initially prohibited combination with Improved Trip. It was later reprinted in Deities and Demigods[still 3.0] with that restriction removed.

The 3rd (3.0 or 3.5) edition rule about reprinted material is that only the latest version of the material is valid.

Aka the old versions of updated materials are invalid

[eggynack]

Is it so much that legacy versions of the classes are no longer valid, or that updated ones are better and a more clear choice?

What is it that becomes out-right banned? I'd hate to follow a rabbit hole to find out 'oh, now that your 3.5, this isn't really a thing anymore'
Things that are updated, like spells and classes with the same name across editions, are rendered invalid by the newer version. They're not usually so different so as to become unrecognizable though. I'm not really familiar with what the full change list looks like, though as you noted, psionics changed significantly. It's widely regarded as a highly positive change, however, so you should probably try that out. Maybe not soul knives though. Those are an ungood thing.