Why do people hate the thurge?

[Akolbi]

I'm in a campaign where im building to a mystic thurge in pathfinder. Everything ive seen says they suck...why? I like the idea of being able to cast almost any spell, with insane numbers. My specific build is a minionmamcer, and its insane. Ill be able to control insane numbers of undead, plus buff, heal, and be useful in combat.

I will admit im pretty frail.

[Jormengand]

I'm in a campaign where im building to a mystic thurge in pathfinder. Everything ive seen says they suck...why? I like the idea of being able to cast almost any spell, with insane numbers. My specific build is a minionmamcer, and its insane. Ill be able to control insane numbers of undead, plus buff, heal, and be useful in combat.

I will admit im pretty frail.

Because you're a spell level or two behind everyone else. And that's terrible.

[Zubrowka74]

In 3.5 they sucked it seams. And its "Theurge". :smallwink:

[eggynack]

Because being able to cast off of two lists at three levels lower is worse than being able to cast off of one list normally. Also, though this is less true of the PF version, the class is vanilla apart from the theurgic nature, so you're trading away the possibility of cool class features gained from other PrC's in addition to the caster level loss. As to your specific case, you'd almost certainly be better at your minionmancy were you all one class or the other, because you'd have access to more powerful minions.

Edit: Additionally, neither the wizard nor the cleric list has all that many holes in it, so you're not increasing your versatility that much, and your higher spells/day isn't that useful when consider that you can only cast one or two spells a round. You're not even getting that many more spells/day, because higher level wizards obviously get more spells than low level wizards.

[Eldariel]

The fact that you're doing well is more-so a testament to just how powerful the bases are even if few levels behind, than a testament to the power of the combination. If this wasn't the case, your minions would be so weak as to not be very useful due to the level discrepancy.

However, Theurges are still almost full casters and PF kinda did away with the non-tier 1 casters so compared to everything but full casters they're quite darn potent.

[KillianHawkeye]

The reason is that being three levels behind a pair of single-classed spellcasters isn't really worth having a second set of spells in most situations. Think about it, you could be a 7th level Wizard or Cleric with access to 4th level spells, or you could be a 7th level character with access to 2nd level Wizard spells with an extra helping of 2nd level Cleric spells. Sure, that's a lot of spells, but is it really worth it to lose out on a few 3rd and 4th level spells in order to get another pile of 1st and 2nd levels?

It's really only worth it if you're starting at high level (if you can get 9th level spells on both sides).

[Gnome Alone]

Pretty much the same reason people hate one-man polka bands. Yes, one can play all those instruments at the same time, but why?

[AmberVael]

First, lets clear the air here- theurge classes aren't actually bad. You're not going to be playing a terrible character if you use one, and they do in fact have some advantages.

The problem people have with most theurge classes is that they're directly inferior to the classes that they combine. Rather than playing a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge, you're better off playing a straight cleric or a straight wizard. In short, by taking one of these classes you're essentially nerfing yourself and taking an axe to your potential.

Add to this that the build only really starts taking off pretty far down the line, and it's not hard to see why people don't like it- for the first six levels you're an inefficiently multiclassed character that is really kinda bad if you don't do it just right. Eventually after you get enough theurge levels you reach 'okay.' But all along the way, anyone who didn't bother will outshine you.

It just doesn't feel good, even if in the end you aren't all that bad.

[Jormengand]

and PF kinda did away with the non-tier 1 casters

They did no such thing, indeed, they added in several - oracle, magus, inquisitor.

[(Un)Inspired]

The other posters have made very good points. I'd just like to add that most theurge builds end up being significantly more MAD then if the character had just focused on one side of the equation.

An oracle/sorcerer theurge in pathfinder is an obvious counter example but then you're falling even farther behind is spell levels as those classes gain them at a slower rate.

For a Christmas themed analogy I will say that theurges are like Santa, they have tons on little toys that are fun to play around with but a full caster is like Jesus; unstoppably powerful

[Karnith]

First, lets clear the air here- theurge classes aren't actually bad.
Unless they are the necromantically-themed theurges, in which case they actually are pretty bad.
Yes, I know, CL abuses. TN and Yathrinshee are still bad and should feel bad.
Otherwise spot-on, though.

[Eldariel]

They did no such thing, indeed, they added in several - oracle, magus, inquisitor.

Fair, and my bad: I meant Tier 1-2. The non-Tier 1-2 casters are gishes, not real casters (any more so than Duskblade or Bard). There are no Warmages, Dread Necros, Beguilers, etc. in PF.

[Flickerdart]

A 7th level wizard casts 4th level arcane spells - Polymorph, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles. He has 6 spells of 2nd level or higher.

A 7th level cleric casts 4th level divine spells - Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Restoration. He has 7 spells of 2nd level or higher.

A 7th level mystic theurge casts 2nd level spells. He has 5 spells of 2nd level or higher.

For the first 1/3rd of his career, the theurge is strictly worse than just going straight classed. You have fewer spells than you would otherwise, and they are weaker.

At 16th level, you run out of mystic theurge levels to take. Next level, your buddies are getting 9th level spells, AKA the most powerful thing in the game. You're still on 7th level spells, except now you have to pick cleric or wizard and advance that one, so you come to the finish line at 20 with only one level's worth of 9th level spells.

In the 9 levels between your awful early build and crying because your gravy train ran out, you're ahead on spells per day, but given that your spells are 3 levels behind, good luck accomplishing anything. Both the lower spell levels and lower ability scores due to MADness reduce your DCs, and your low CL means durations are shorter. You simply need to cast more spells to accomplish what another caster could do with fewer, which means the action economy is also against you.

There is some use for theurges with a fast progression class like Divine Crusader, Sublime Chord, or Ur-Priest because there's a sweet spot where you actually come out on top, but a regular mystic theurge will always be worse than the other guys. Early entry can also make them better, but not by that much.

[Craft (Cheese)]

A few reasons.

First, it sets you behind in at least 3 caster levels in both of your classes. A Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1 is a 7th-level character with 4th-level Wizard casting and 4th level Cleric casting: Two entire spell levels behind what her single-classed counterparts are doing. Note however that if you use early-entry methods like Precocious Apprentice, this downside is a lot easier to deal with.

Second, while having broader access to spells is indeed handy, it's not all *that* handy in the long run. It depends on what books you're using but there's not that many things that a Wizard can do that a Cleric can't, or a Cleric can do that a Wizard can't. There's enough variety on both spell lists to cover basically everything. And where one list does have an advantage over the other, the Wizard is almost always on top. A Wizard with cleric spells just isn't that much better than a regular wizard, and certainly not worth the loss of 3 caster levels to get there.

Third, even though you have more spells you don't actually have the action economy to take advantage of those additional spells: Unless your DM likes to make you go through really long adventuring days where you do 20 encounters without resting, you'll just never see any use out of those extra spell slots.

Fourth, what benefit you *can* get from a Mystic Theurge is better done by other methods. Archivist lets you get all the spells you could ever want from nearly any list, and doesn't fall behind on spell levels to do so.

[Zubrowka74]

The reason is that being three levels behind a pair of single-classed spellcasters isn't really worth having a second set of spells in most situations. Think about it, you could be a 7th level Wizard or Cleric with access to 4th level spells, or you could be a 7th level character with access to 2nd level Wizard spells with an extra helping of 2nd level Cleric spells. Sure, that's a lot of spells, but is it really worth it to lose out on a few 3rd and 4th level spells in order to get another pile of 1st and 2nd levels?

It's really only worth it if you're starting at high level (if you can get 9th level spells on both sides).


And unless you take lesser casters like Sorcerers, you have two casting stats, that DAD minimum. Oracle / Sorcerors are SAD but you'd loose more than 3 levels of casting. Almost the same for Cleric / Empyreal Sorceror.

[eggynack]

And unless you take lesser casters like Sorcerers, you have two casting stats, that DAD minimum. Oracle / Sorcerors are SAD but you'd loose more than 3 levels of casting. Almost the same for Cleric / Empyreal Sorceror.
Archivist/wizards would disagree with that notion.

[Karnith]

Archivist/wizards would disagree with that notion.
Only partially; you wouldn't drop additional caster levels, but Archivists have split casting stats. Intelligence determines what level spell they can cast and save DCs, while Wisdom determines bonus spells.

[Flickerdart]

Archivist/wizards would disagree with that notion.
You'll have spellbooks. So many spellbooks.

FOUR HUNDRED SPELLBOOKS.

[Spuddles]

I love theurges, and PF makes them pretty much always superior to single classing, unless you're building around class features for some reason. Wizard7/cleric3/mystic theurge 10 gets you 20th level wizard casting and 14th level cleric casting. Just make sure you join a magic user's guild.

Thanks to wayang spell hunter and magical lineage, you can use heighten spell to enter early if you want. Sorcerer8/oracle2/mystic theurge10 is very good. Mix in some paragon surge for ALL the spells!

[Akolbi]

As for MAD: i have an 18wis and a 20int.

[eggynack]

Only partially; you wouldn't drop additional caster levels, but Archivists have split casting stats. Intelligence determines what level spell they can cast and save DCs, while Wisdom determines bonus spells.
True, though that leaves you just as MAD as a regular archivist.

You'll have spellbooks. So many spellbooks.

FOUR HUNDRED SPELLBOOKS.
You say that, and it sounds like the best thing ever.

As for MAD: i have an 18wis and a 20int.
Fair enough. However, the MADness is just about the smallest problem with theurgery.

[Grey Watcher]

You'll have spellbooks. So many spellbooks.

FOUR HUNDRED SPELLBOOKS.

Just research the spell Leomund's Secret Library.

[Spore]

Pathfinder loves single classing. A classical (wiz/cle) theurge is MAD, looses out on the favored class bonus and does not progress class features (familiar, domains). You are behind a few levels (which does hurt in the beginning) and you cannot exceed Theurge 10 (which forces you to pick a favorite and continue it). Combined Spells are too slow to be really good (I mean come on, which enemy screams in terror when you cast your Bless and Shield ALL TOGETHER? *gasp*) and caps out before becoming really good. Spell Synthesis were good, if it were available more than once a day. And switching spell slots is also a stupid idea (magic missile as a cleric 2 spell? bless in a wizard 2 slot?).

The main idea is GREAT, and I love the flavor (and a theurge still ends up in T2 or 3) but the realization of the class is terrible.

[Schizek]

Depend how you build them, there a few exceptions in theurgic classes that can actually be powerful.

1. Wizard 4/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer X
Wis only 14, Feat Practiced Manifester
For a little Wis, one feat, 1 caster lvl get plenty powerful and unique abilities.

2. Sorcerer 2/Binder 1 /Anima Mage X
Feat: Improved Binding, Precocious Apprentice(retrain it letter)
For 1 feat and 1 Caster lvl get double progression with is much better than sorcerer anyway.

3. Wizard 1/Cleric 4/Mystic Theurge
Precocious Apprentice(retrain it letter), Practiced Spellcaster
Again Only 1 lvl of cleric is lost and one feat to get many interesting spells.

4. Wizard 7/Nar Demon Bringer 1/Ultimate Magus X

On lvl 10 these options have almost the same power in main part as straight Wiz or Cleric but have many exstras. I don't like theurge classes only because it is too many bookkeeping.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Only partially; you wouldn't drop additional caster levels, but Archivists have split casting stats. Intelligence determines what level spell they can cast and save DCs, while Wisdom determines bonus spells.

Academic Priest makes them INT-SAD.

[Eldariel]

I love theurges, and PF makes them pretty much always superior to single classing, unless you're building around class features for some reason. Wizard7/cleric3/mystic theurge 10 gets you 20th level wizard casting and 14th level cleric casting. Just make sure you join a magic user's guild.

How does that work exactly? I'm not sure what the guild you're speaking of is, but are you saying it actually gives you slots of an equal level Wizard, or just caster level? 'cause the slots are the more important part, particularly during the leveling process.

[Flickerdart]

As for MAD: i have an 18wis and a 20int.
What level are you? I would expect a 20 main casting stat around, like, level 6.

[Jeff the Green]

Academic Priest makes them INT-SAD.

It's also 3rd party. Personally I prefer going Urrkrau Illumian and switching it to Dexterity.

More on topic, theurging isn't terrible if you can get in early. The aforementioned urrkrau illumian will heighten two spells, getting you into Mystic Theurge as a Sorcerer 2/Spirit Shaman 1, a Wizard 2/Archivist 1, or a Wizard 1/Druid 3 (setting you up for Arcane Hierophant at 9th and ending with Wizard 17/Druid 19).

More exotic theurges, like Anima Mage and Soulcaster are better because you get actual class features.

Another problem no one's mentioned is that Mystic Theurge ends at 10, so at best you're looking at Wizard 19/Cleric 11 casting. Which is kind of meh, especially considering that you lose out on a lot of prestige classes with actual class features.

[Spuddles]

How does that work exactly? I'm not sure what the guild you're speaking of is, but are you saying it actually gives you slots of an equal level Wizard, or just caster level? 'cause the slots are the more important part, particularly during the leveling process.

Inner Sea Magic lets you join a guild, pay a trivial amount of gp, and make some easy skill checks to gain ranks. At 5 ranks you get +1 in a spell casting class; at 30 ranks you get +3 in one and +1 in another.

Hasnt been errated, as far as I know. If you're looking foe a discussion, include esoteric training in your search.

Early entry is pretty clutch with the aforementioned traits, esp. for spontaneous casters.

[Spuddles]

What level are you? I would expect a 20 main casting stat around, like, level 6.

Start with 18, add +2 from any of the many, many PF races with +2 mental stat.

[Craft (Cheese)]

How does that work exactly? I'm not sure what the guild you're speaking of is, but are you saying it actually gives you slots of an equal level Wizard, or just caster level? 'cause the slots are the more important part, particularly during the leveling process.

Inner Sea Magic has rules for getting special bonuses for belonging to magical organizations. If you gain 5 Fame points in a magic guild, you get this:


Eclectic Training: Guilds often require members to master and
train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches
5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase
your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to
your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

So you can be a Fighter 1/Cleric 7 and cast like a Cleric 8. At 35 fame points, you get "Esoteric Training" which does the same thing, except it boosts your effective class level by 3 in one spellcaster class and by 1 in a second. So a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10 with this casts like a Cleric 14/Wizard 16 (or Cleric 16/Wizard 14).

[Hamste]

Keep in mind spell like abilities have been ruled in pathfinder to allow you to enter prestige classes. This means you don't have to lose a lot of caster levels anymore.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm

[ahenobarbi]

They can be be powerful, there is a handbook on the subject (it's title is "The urge to theurge", I can't provide link right now but Google should have no problem finding it).

The problem is that "obvious" choices suck. Worse spells. Fewer spells. Poor save DCs (lower spell level and worse stats). No way to follow up (cleric 3/ wizard 3/ mystic theurge 10 and then what? ).

[Spuddles]

Using PF and 3.5 rules, I've got an arcange hierophant build that has 20/20 casting, companion familiar as 18th lvl druid with a familiar level of 11, ac as a monk, full wildshape, and two dragon pets with 10th level wizard casting/1st lvl cleric casting. And some other stuff. Like wisdom for pickpocketing.

[Schizek]

Another problem no one's mentioned is that Mystic Theurge ends at 10, so at best you're looking at Wizard 19/Cleric 11 casting. Which is kind of meh, especially considering that you lose out on a lot of prestige classes with actual class features.

You can extend them using Legancy Champion. Even if you continue with IoSV or other short Prc it is fine anyway. There is not many Prc that have class features equal to 11 Cleric casting with have plenty nice h/lvl buffs.

People are just to greedy. There is plenty viable Theurge builds but they always try something funny like Wiz3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge X with is the worst of them. MAD and feat investment and huge gap to pure casters.

[Eldariel]

Inner Sea Magic has rules for getting special bonuses for belonging to magical organizations. If you gain 5 Fame points in a magic guild, you get this:

So you can be a Fighter 1/Cleric 7 and cast like a Cleric 8. At 35 fame points, you get "Esoteric Training" which does the same thing, except it boosts your effective class level by 3 in one spellcaster class and by 1 in a second. So a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10 with this casts like a Cleric 14/Wizard 16 (or Cleric 16/Wizard 14).

Huh, that's pretty convenient. I thought Paizo was "trying" to cut down on caster hilarity but I guess they're not happy until they print their own Sanctum Spell, Dweomerkeeper, Tainted Scholar & co.

[Akolbi]

What level are you? I would expect a 20 main casting stat around, like, level 6.

I'm level 5. I took a thing from the race guide that let me get an extra floatable +2. I also have a 14cha, but my physical stats are crap, hence the minionmancing, idk if anyone remembers the suite li series on disney, i kinda modeled him off of London tipton's dad.

[Phelix-Mu]

An important thing to remember is that, although the theurge will probably be weaker than his/her non-theurge self and weaker than any straight of the two base theurge classes, that may never figure into a given campaign.

A theurge of two Tier 1s or a Tier 1 and 2-3 is going to have a pretty high level of performance relative to 95% of everything else in a given campaign world. That last 5% is stuff that one should avoid fighting unless absolutely necessary anyway, and some of them won't even figure in certain plots. There aren't always mad wizards to compete with or evil clerics leading death cults (and when there are, maybe they are sucking up racial HD or similar mechanical nerfs made necessary by the plot). My point is

Most Everything the DM hasn't custom tailored to kill theurge PCs < Theurge PC op < Non-theurge PC op

Of course, the DM can kill any PC without too much effort at all, but that's not the point of the game. A PC usually doesn't fight either a.) their more optimized self or b.) stuff that is constantly engineered specifically to exploit the lack of highest available spell levels.

Other than what I just said, though, the general consensus is still true; the perks of most theurge classes are pretty meh, and the drawback is real.
Levels spent as a wizard 3/cleric 2 are going to blow big time chunks at a point in the game when power levels begin to fluctuate heavily among other classes.

In general, I don't know PF. But MT in 3.5 is pretty much the second worst theurge Prc, right behind that necromancer thingy that clearly only works for enemies. AH and ED and ET all have nice goodies that can make for good fun and nice flavor, while only ET really suffers from levels where one is just going to totally suck (AH you are still a druid/wiz, so AC can pick up some slack...cleric/warlock is not terrible, just not terribly optimal).

[eggynack]

You can extend them using Legancy Champion. Even if you continue with IoSV or other short Prc it is fine anyway. There is not many Prc that have class features equal to 11 Cleric casting with have plenty nice h/lvl buffs.

Eleven levels of cleric casting are great in the general sense, but when attached to a wizard 19, they may as well be a footnote. What you really want is something like incantarix, which enhances your casting ability, instead of mystic theurge, which just staples different casting onto your own. It doesn't even have to be something as cheesy as incantarix, and you can even lose a caster level in an actually profitable way. War weaver and malconvoker are great examples of that, really pushing some aspects of your casting to the next level.

[Flickerdart]

I'm level 5. I took a thing from the race guide that let me get an extra floatable +2. I also have a 14cha, but my physical stats are crap, hence the minionmancing, idk if anyone remembers the suite li series on disney, i kinda modeled him off of London tipton's dad.
Ah, so your DM let you get away with early entry. That does make theurges a lot less bad, but you're still basically nerfing yourself in comparison to a straight-classed character.

[Nightcanon]

Look at it this way: you can only ordinarily cast 1 spell a round, so in effect you chose each round whether to function as a level x arcanist or a level x divine caster. The thing is, the alternative option you are now cut off from is functioning solely as a level x+3 arcanist OR divine caster. Look at it the other way round: why would a level 13 (for example) wizard want to act as a level 10 cleric for even a single round, when the alternative is to continue as a level 13 wizard? The same goes for a level 13 cleric- what attraction is there in playing at being a 10th level wizard for a even a round, even if he could then freely return to being a level 13 cleric? If the price of such flexibilty were permanently sacrificing 1 level of their class that might be tempting, but 3 levels is too high a price to pay. A level x Mystic Theurge in a party of level (x-3) PCs would be impressive (though not as impressive as a level x Wizard would be), and would be underwhelming compared to a party of level x PCs.
Might be interesting to RP, though..

[Akolbi]

Ah, so your DM let you get away with early entry. That does make theurges a lot less bad, but you're still basically nerfing yourself in comparison to a straight-classed character.

No. Right now i'm wiz/2clr/3 im human, not aasimar.

[Phelix-Mu]

Eleven levels of cleric casting are great in the general sense, but when attached to a wizard 19, they may as well be a footnote. What you really want is something like incantarix, which enhances your casting ability, instead of mystic theurge, which just staples different casting onto your own. It doesn't even have to be something as cheesy as incantarix, and you can even lose a caster level in an actually profitable way. War weaver and malconvoker are great examples of that, really pushing some aspects of your casting to the next level.

I agree that there are certainly optimization options vastly superior to losing caster levels for theurging. But, again, if you start with cosmic power and then dock yourself a few planets worth of power, in the end it's all going to come out in the wash.

The key here is that a.) level by level, the build looks pretty terrible at key points, barring some early entry or corner-cutting cheese, and b.) wizard or cleric pure are both capable of pretty much anything anyone with the combined powers of both can do. At a certain point, more spell slots are just not worth it (barring a mechanism like UM that lets one burn them for more efficient or more effective casting).

[eggynack]

No. Right now i'm wiz/2clr/3 im human, not aasimar.
So, you don't even have any mystic theurge levels yet? That seems to be an odd place to assess the class from, though I can't say that I'm in a significantly better position.

[Phelix-Mu]

No. Right now i'm wiz/2clr/3 im human, not aasimar.

That's going to be a difficult couple levels. Whereas you should be picking up 3rd level AoEs or haste and other extremely good buffs, you are still stuck with 1sts, and 2nds of the cleric list. If there are any straight Tier 1s in the party, you will notice the difference.

On the other hand, if you are the only pure caster, you'll probably still be decently effective with the right spells and good strategy.

[Akolbi]

So, you don't even have any mystic theurge levels yet? That seems to be an odd place to assess the class from, though I can't say that I'm in a significantly better position.

I looked at the pre. I also looked into what i could do, i already have a few minions, like an ogre, and a mule. And i can have a massive hoard. I'm really just an auxiliary to them.

[Akolbi]

So, you don't even have any mystic theurge levels yet? That seems to be an odd place to assess the class from, though I can't say that I'm in a significantly better position.


That's going to be a difficult couple levels. Whereas you should be picking up 3rd level AoEs or haste and other extremely good buffs, you are still stuck with 1sts, and 2nds of the cleric list. If there are any straight Tier 1s in the party, you will notice the difference.

On the other hand, if you are the only pure caster, you'll probably still be decently effective with the right spells and good strategy.

It's thus far a 2man band. There may end up being a rogueish type and the tank.

Its also a pretty easygoing campaign...the dm may or may not have given the fighter a sword that is over his WBL. Just the sword.

[Jeff the Green]

Eleven levels of cleric casting are great in the general sense, but when attached to a wizard 19, they may as well be a footnote. What you really want is something like incantarix, which enhances your casting ability, instead of mystic theurge, which just staples different casting onto your own. It doesn't even have to be something as cheesy as incantarix, and you can even lose a caster level in an actually profitable way. War weaver and malconvoker are great examples of that, really pushing some aspects of your casting to the next level.

Right. Maybe around level eight, when you'd have the equivalent of Wizard 7/Cleric 6 and so level four and three spells, it's okay. But once you hit the higher levels, you're looking at having level 6 cleric spells max. Which isn't really relevant when you're throwing around wish, shapechange, and gate. It might work for buffs, but because your CL is gimped they'd be dispelled easily.

[Rubik]

Epic theurge. Just...epic theurge.

[Emperor Tippy]

Eleven levels of cleric casting are great in the general sense, but when attached to a wizard 19, they may as well be a footnote. What you really want is something like incantarix, which enhances your casting ability, instead of mystic theurge, which just staples different casting onto your own. It doesn't even have to be something as cheesy as incantarix, and you can even lose a caster level in an actually profitable way. War weaver and malconvoker are great examples of that, really pushing some aspects of your casting to the next level.

The real exception to this is Cerebremancer thanks to Psiotheugist.

A Psion 3/ Wizard 1/ Cerebremancer 10/ Psion 6 with Psiotheugist can gain +11 ML for giving up one level of Psion manifesting.

Ardent 1/ Wizard 1/ Cerebremancer 10/ Wizard 8 with Psiotheugist taken before Cerebremancer 9 gets to pick up 9th level powers in exchange for one level of Wizard casting. Combine with Psychic Chiguery to cheery pick powers and you are hands down better than a straight wizard (or even most Wizard/ PrC builds).

---
Without early entry Theurge classes are distinctly suboptimal. With early entry they can vary anywhere from being acceptable to being incredibly powerful.

Wizard/Cleric/MT is honestly about the weakest of the Theurge builds though as they just don't synergize all that well.

[Spuddles]

What do you think of mind mage?

[Elderand]

What do you think of mind mage?

Too strong

[Seer_of_Heart]

I personally love theurges even if they're suboptimal but there are some builds that are pretty great with theurges. An arcane Hierophant can get 18/18 or 19/17 casting pretty easily, you can use kobold sorcerer to get more arcane casting. Plus theurges shine when combined with 1 or more fast progression classes such as ur-priest, sublime chord, and beholder mage. Why didn't wotc give us a fast progression psionic class! :smalltongue:

edit: if someone already said this and I missed it sorry I was skimming this thread.

[Ansem]

I'm in a campaign where im building to a mystic thurge in pathfinder. Everything ive seen says they suck...why? I like the idea of being able to cast almost any spell, with insane numbers. My specific build is a minionmamcer, and its insane. Ill be able to control insane numbers of undead, plus buff, heal, and be useful in combat.

I will admit im pretty frail.

Minionmancer...
Is not a Dread Necro...

[CombatOwl]

I'm in a campaign where im building to a mystic thurge in pathfinder. Everything ive seen says they suck...why? I like the idea of being able to cast almost any spell, with insane numbers. My specific build is a minionmamcer, and its insane. Ill be able to control insane numbers of undead, plus buff, heal, and be useful in combat.

I will admit im pretty frail.

The issue boils down to action economy and the length of the adventuring day. The advantage of the theurge is the insane spell versatility and huge piles of spells. The problem is that you sacrifice depth for that broad selection of spells, which is a poor trade in a game where spell power increases exponentially. In games where you run a lot of encounters between resting, the theurge gains some advantage, but even then the rest of the party will almost certainly run dry before you do so the utility is still kind of limited.

In other words, it's better to have 4 level 7 spells than 6 level 6 spells because you'll probably only need a handful of spells before you rest again anyway.

Not to mention the fact that you can pretty much do everything a wizard can do with just the cleric list anyway.

Not to put too sharp a point on it, but "oh, good, you got to be useless in a fight twice as often."

[Spuddles]

With a lot of spells, you can layer a ton of defenses you may not otherwise have slots to do. I've found that for levels 5-10, my wizard spends about 50% of his spell slots keeping himself alive with buffs. Then another 10% to 40% on stuff like mage armor, resist energy, or fly for the party as needed. I tend to play wizards as force multiplier, though, and dont do silly things like spam orbs of fire or rays of enervation.

Of course, there's always persistent metamagic cheese, but that is super broken in the games I play. Persistent Impermeable Form at level 8? Sure, I'll be incorporeal for 24hrs. Sounds handy. Poor, poor DM.

Plus, if this is a PF game, there is no incantatrix and persistent spell works much differently.

[Thurbane]

IMHO, people get far too hung up on losing caster levels.

It truly depends on the op level of your group - if you're a Mystic Theurge in a party with Batman Wizard, Codzilla etc. yes, you're going to feel very inferior to them. If the rest of your party is a Fighter, Monk and Truenamer, not so much.

It also cracks me up that people bemoan how broken an optimized Wizard, Cleric, Druid etc. is, but at the same time, keep chanting the holy mantra "Thou must never lose caster levels". :smalltongue:

[Kuulvheysoon]

And unless you take lesser casters like Sorcerers, you have two casting stats, that DAD minimum. Oracle / Sorcerors are SAD but you'd loose more than 3 levels of casting. Almost the same for Cleric / Empyreal Sorceror.Ummm... Hello Wiz/Psion/cerebremancer or Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge?


You'll have spellbooks. So many spellbooks.

FOUR HUNDRED SPELLBOOKS.

WIN. That is all.

[CombatOwl]

With a lot of spells, you can layer a ton of defenses you may not otherwise have slots to do. I've found that for levels 5-10, my wizard spends about 50% of his spell slots keeping himself alive with buffs.

Shouldn't you be putting some of that onto wondrous items and wands? Especially if it's a pathfinder game.


Then another 10% to 40% on stuff like mage armor, resist energy, or fly for the party as needed. I tend to play wizards as force multiplier, though, and dont do silly things like spam orbs of fire or rays of enervation.

Eh, the really effective casters are those that maximize action economy by shutting down multiple enemies per round. Batman likes orbs, but batman is kind of a waste of time compared with CC lockdown casters. Seriously, dazing spell beats out the entire batman wizard strategy. Kill large groups of almost everything with nothing but magic missile, fireball, dazing spell, and heighten spell.


Of course, there's always persistent metamagic cheese, but that is super broken in the games I play. Persistent Impermeable Form at level 8? Sure, I'll be incorporeal for 24hrs. Sounds handy. Poor, poor DM.

Plus, if this is a PF game, there is no incantatrix and persistent spell works much differently.

Persistent gets way, way more cheesy in PF. Persistent Icy Prison is an instant-kill for anything with a low reflex save that isn't immune to cold.

[Wavelab]

Often when I play a game starting at level 20 I like to play a theurge on one condition: The DM lets you take an epic progression for a PrC before epic levels, that way you can have 3 Wizard/ 3 Psion / 14 Cerebremancer, which is enough to get 9th level spells and powers. Sure you're a tad weaker, but the versatility it opens up is beautiful, especially if you use erudite instead of psion.

Theurges really aren't bad, they're just sub-optimal, but if you like playing them then go for it.

[Pex]

In one of my group's campaigns a player is a wizard/cleric/theurge. While he did have some trepidations early on, he decided to stick with it and now enjoys it a lot. The long delay to 3rd level spells was frustrating for him, but once he finally got them he got into the groove. He is having fun and being effective with the spells he does have, not lamenting and resenting the spells he doesn't have for not being single class.

[Schizek]

In one of my group's campaigns a player is a wizard/cleric/theurge. While he did have some trepidations early on, he decided to stick with it and now enjoys it a lot. The long delay to 3rd level spells was frustrating for him, but once he finally got them he got into the groove. He is having fun and being effective with the spells he does have, not lamenting and resenting the spells he doesn't have for not being single class.
On level 9 he could cast haste.
Pure Wizard lvl 9 could Teleport everyone 900 miles

He will soon realize after retrospection form lvl 9-13.

[Vizzerdrix]

I heartily support your urge to theurge. If yer DM will allow some 3.5 stuff, try this Wiz-1/Druid-3/Mystic Theurge-6/Arcane Heirophant-10

Make sure you retrain to wiz-1 Druid-3 and use Inner Sea Magic to balance it out so yer not behind in casting.

[Thurbane]

On level 9 he could cast haste.
Pure Wizard lvl 9 could Teleport everyone 900 miles

He will soon realize after retrospection form lvl 9-13.
This assumes everyone's goal with their character is to be as powerful as is possible.

Even the designers of the game (debatably) intended clerics to be healbots, wizards to be blasters etc. It is perfectly possible for a theurge type character to handle CR appropriate encounters.

I think sometimes people forget the reason to play D&D is to have fun, not to "win", whatever that means. Sure, nobody wants to play a horribly ineffectual character that feels like a burden to the party - but even with a caster who is lagging 3 or so levels behind, that's not very likely. We all know casters essentially dominate the game.

Even in a X-men type scenario, for every player that wants to be Phoenix, there are some that want to be Wolverine or Cyclops. :smalltongue:

[Spuddles]

Shouldn't you be putting some of that onto wondrous items and wands? Especially if it's a pathfinder game.

Most games I've played, I lvl 2 to 4 times in like a week of game time, usually in a dungeon, in the wilderness. It's def a playstyle thing, but my campaigns tend to be heavy on random loot, short on magic shopping trips. :/




Eh, the really effective casters are those that maximize action economy by shutting down multiple enemies per round. Batman likes orbs, but batman is kind of a waste of time compared with CC lockdown casters. Seriously, dazing spell beats out the entire batman wizard strategy. Kill large groups of almost everything with nothing but magic missile, fireball, dazing spell, and heighten spell.

Metamagic's for sorcerers :p

If you are using a spell that gets energy resisted, has two saves, and SR:yes out of a 6th level slot, you should have just gone with the solid fog or tentacles, or wall of iron. Force multiplaction. You've got that chump cleric who insists on hitting things and summoner druid for a reason.


Persistent gets way, way more cheesy in PF. Persistent Icy Prison is an instant-kill for anything with a low reflex save that isn't immune to cold.

No, no it really doesnt. Maybe you havent seen a good incantatrix build. They can make the whole party pretty ridiculous. Like perm wraithstrike on the gish. Stun locking something for multiple rounds is doable at pretty much every spell level. Again, metamagic is for sorcerers.

[Emperor Tippy]

Again, metamagic is for sorcerers.
Depends on the metamagic.

Although for high level, high op, play I recommend against taking Persistent Spell or Extend Spell. Just do all of your buffing on your private, genesis created, demiplane that has the Enhanced Magic: Persistent, Extended traits. It beats even Incantatrix or DMM+Nightstick cleric for Persisting stuff.

Granted, the real hilarity comes when you create a demiplane with all of the mailman metamagic applied from its Enhanced Magic trait and then carry your plane around with you via a fine animated object with a shaped Planar Bubble (so that it only covers your square) up. Free mailman meta for all of your spells with no need to spend any pesky feats.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Depends on the metamagic.

Although for high level, high op, play I recommend against taking Persistent Spell or Extend Spell. Just do all of your buffing on your private, genesis created, demiplane that has the Enhanced Magic: Persistent, Extended traits. It beats even Incantatrix or DMM+Nightstick cleric for Persisting stuff.

Granted, the real hilarity comes when you create a demiplane with all of the mailman metamagic applied from its Enhanced Magic trait and then carry your plane around with you via a fine animated object with a shaped Planar Bubble (so that it only covers your square) up. Free mailman meta for all of your spells with no need to spend any pesky feats.

Similar shenanigans could be if you're a divine caster (I wish there was a divine magical training) with access to psiref/dcs going to your demiplane filled with leadership/mindraped minons who using the divine conduit feat let you apply free metamagic and then you psiref/dcs away extend and persist spell.

[molten_dragon]

I'm in a campaign where im building to a mystic thurge in pathfinder. Everything ive seen says they suck...why?

Mystic Theurges do suck compared to single-classed casters of the same character level. A lot of people forget to include that caveat when Mystic Theurge gets brought up. The main reason why is because you give up a significant number of caster levels (3 I think) in each casting class, and don't gain that much in return. You get more spells per day, but by the time you actually get into mystic theurge, that's not as much of an issue even for a single-class caster. And you're still limited to the same number of actions per round. And while you have a wider variety of spells available to you, the spell lists of all the casters overlap (in effects, not necessarily exact spells) enough that it's not really all that useful.

Compared to a lot of the other classes in the game though, a mystic theurge is still pretty powerful, and won't have any problems keeping up in most parties.

[Flickerdart]

The DM lets you take an epic progression for a PrC before epic levels, that way you can have 3 Wizard/ 3 Psion / 14 Cerebremancer, which is enough to get 9th level spells and powers.
Does Epic Cerebremancer get double progression every level, unlike the Epic Mystic Theurge?

[Akal Saris]

You'll have spellbooks. So many spellbooks.

FOUR HUNDRED SPELLBOOKS.

LOL damn it, don't type responses when I am drinking beer, sir!

[Zubrowka74]

Ummm... Hello Wiz/Psion/cerebremancer or Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge?

I was mainly referring to straight Theurge. Also, Pathfinder in this case. True you can squeeze out a little more from it in 3.5 with other PrCs.

[Harrow]

Most theurges are bad in the same way that Master of Many Forms is worse with Druid entry than Wildshape Ranger entry. The former really does play better, but you give up more opting for MoMF over Druid levels than you do for Wildshape Ranger, so you spend every level thinking "look at all these things I should be able to do" instead of "look at all these cool new abilities I get".

If you're playing alongside a TWF Fighter and Rogue/Barbarian then you'll probably still have make an active attempt to not overshadow them. Honestly, I would call even the lowly Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge Tier 1, even without early entry tricks. Certainly lower Tier 1 than any base class, but still Tier 1.

[ZekeTheRogue]

Bahaha! I'm joining akolbi's campaign hopefully. I'm going to be a Druid. Full leveled. This is gonna be fun. :belkar:

[Rubik]

For some reason, a lot of DMs think that you're trying to cheat or over-optimize if you theurge, that you're trying to overpower a campaign by getting arcane and divine spells. For some reason, going wizard/arcane PrC or cleric/divine PrC is seen as less cheesy than cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 10/whatever 4. Maybe some of them should look into this thread...

[nedz]

For some reason, a lot of DMs think that you're trying to cheat or over-optimize if you theurge, that you're trying to overpower a campaign by getting arcane and divine spells. For some reason, going wizard/arcane PrC or cleric/divine PrC is seen as less cheesy than cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 10/whatever 4. Maybe some of them should look into this thread...

This is often a case of first impressions because at level 2: Cleric 1 / Wizard 1, or similar, is very powerful for it's level. The character kind of slows down thereafter, at least until you enter the Theurge PrC, but that is often missed.

[Larkas]

People can be overly dramatic some times. Theurge characters may be less powerful than their single classed brethren, but they by no means "suck". They are probably more useful to their parties than a Bard, and this is a solid Tier 3 class. I would risk to say that this is the case even if they take the classic, and decidedly suboptimal, Cleric 5/ Wizard 5/ Mystic Theurge 10 build. Any Theurge character is probably Tier 1 or 2, and that is hardly a terrible place to be.

The problems they do have is that, depending on the Theurge class selected, you'll miss even the simple class features of your base classes. Furthermore, short of early entry shenanigans, Theurge builds are hardly elegant and can be a drag to play from level 1. And of course, they may have delayed access to PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER (which is hardly a problem, specially in a game where Sorcadins are a thing), or have only "galactic power" (which is hardly a problem for every non-full caster ever). Lastly, they may not live up to expectations of DOUBLE PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER, but if that's the case, you should stop being lazy and optimize the hell out if a single classes caster. Or find a gestalt game (hint: it still won't attend your expectations unless you find a way to break the action economy).

[Telok]

Ok, here is a question for you guys. What are some good theurge builds that play well in the 5 to 15 level range and use only modest cheese and no magazine or web material?

Human Sorcerer 1 (versatile pellcaster, heighten spell) / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge sounds good. You add a little arcane to your light armor cleric.

Wizard 4 / Urpriest 2 (or is it 3?) / Mystic Theurge 8 should work nicely. Since wizards are T1 they can survive being two levels behind in casting, especially with Urpriest fast cleric casting on them.

What else is there?

[Elderand]

Wizard/druid/arcane hierophant/ mystic theurge

Wizard and druid don't sinc up too well but using both arcan hierophant and mystic theurge you can continue progressing both until level 20 whitout having to beg for epic prc progression.

[Karnith]

Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus X using Illumian (for the Krau sigil) and Practiced Spellcaster is pretty good, too.
Or Spontaneous Divination Wizard 5/UM X, but that's kinda missing the point.
Or are we just talking Mystic Theurge?

[atomicwaffle]

(3.5) My mystic theurge got to high level because i knew what was effective. It all depends on your choices. As a cleric, i chose Kord and Strength and Luck as my domains. As a wizard, i specialized as a transmuter. You don't cast much blasting spells. Scorching ray will see a lot of work, but you want mostly buffs. Mage Armor, Bull's Strength, Enlarge Person. For feats getting Practiced Spellcaster for Arcane is really helpful and the feat Divine Vigor increases your movement and gives you temp HP. Some really useful low level spells are Fist of Stone, Fly Swift, Knock, and Ray of Enfeeblement.

Since you can't throw fireballs like mad, don't. Find something constructive to do. When you get wizard 1 you get scribe scroll as a free bonus feat, so make scrolls of cure light and moderate wounds. Roleplay that as a theurge, you are obsessed with magic, so spend time in libraries researching spells and powerful artifacts.

Also, if you're too overpowered, the DM will drop the hammer on you.

[Pex]

On level 9 he could cast haste.
Pure Wizard lvl 9 could Teleport everyone 900 miles

He will soon realize after retrospection form lvl 9-13.

I repeat.

He is having fun and being effective with the spells he does have, not lamenting and resenting the spells he doesn't have for not being single class.

Neither is the party. He's had his fair share of shining moments of glory.

[Thanatosia]

I'm currently using a Scout 1/Sorceror1/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Thurge 6 in a campaign i'm playing. DM let me add Know:reglion to Favored Soul without removing Know: Arcana (as it should be) so I was able to make the MT skill requirements by lv3. I also have 2x Practiced Spellcaster feats so my Caster level is at my full Clv on both sides. It's been pretty fun so far. My plan is once I max out the Mystic Thurge levels to take 2 more levels of scout for the Trackless step that will let me qualify for Arcane Heirophant. Best part is 3 levels of scout + 1 level of the other caster side = full coverage from Practiced spellcaster. It's not even MAD.... I base spells and spells per day off my CHA for both sides. MY Divine soul spells do base their saves off WIS, wich I kind of made a non-issue by only picking Divine spells that buff, heal, summon or do not allow a save - given that I have a whole Sorceror progression for picking Save/Offensive magic, it's not that big a drawback.

[nedz]

Any Illumian using the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat can enter MT at level 4, or indeed almost any other Theurge class.