"The Classics" of AD&D, BECMI, and so on

[Yora]

I've recently started with Castles & Crusades and like with many other OSR games it is widely considered to be highly compatible with old AD&D books. But looking back at the entire run of AD&D and the other old editions, there are probably even more books than ever released for 3rd and 4th Edition. With 3rd Edition and Pathfinder I am quite familiar which books exist, what kind of content you can find in them, and how well they are generally regarded.
With the old TSR books I am mostly clueless.

So I'd like to make a call for recommendations regarding the old books with a few words on what type of content they contain and what kinds of groups would benefit from having them.

The only one I really know to be great is the 1st Edition Fiend Folio. It's a regular monster book like all the others, but the quality of the creatures in it is excelent. You get such classics like derro, dark ones, githyanki, slaad, sons of kyuss, quaggoths, nycadaemons, mezzodaemons, meenlocks, kuo-toa, grell, frost men, gibberlings, and lots of others.

[MeeposFire]

Rules Cyclopedia is important if you want to do D&D rather than AD&D.


I am a big fan of the bard handbook (might be called the complete handbook to bards) if you have any players thinking about playing a 2e type bard. It is a very well done book with a lot of crunch and fluff (which is a rare combo in 2e which tends to lean towards fluff).

Ditto for the Complete handbook for fighters. Has a lot of good information and has some interesting things to read in it. Not quite as good as the bard book but still very good.

Many of the old setting books are good but I am not sure how much you need those.

[Thrudd]

I've recently started with Castles & Crusades and like with many other OSR games it is widely considered to be highly compatible with old AD&D books. But looking back at the entire run of AD&D and the other old editions, there are probably even more books than ever released for 3rd and 4th Edition. With 3rd Edition and Pathfinder I am quite familiar which books exist, what kind of content you can find in them, and how well they are generally regarded.
With the old TSR books I am mostly clueless.

So I'd like to make a call for recommendations regarding the old books with a few words on what type of content they contain and what kinds of groups would benefit from having them.

The only one I really know to be great is the 1st Edition Fiend Folio. It's a regular monster book like all the others, but the quality of the creatures in it is excelent. You get such classics like derro, dark ones, githyanki, slaad, sons of kyuss, quaggoths, nycadaemons, mezzodaemons, meenlocks, kuo-toa, grell, frost men, gibberlings, and lots of others.

I would say 1e DMG is a must for any group running AD&D clones. Besides the game mechanics which are preserved in the various retro clones, it has articles and advice from G.Gygax which are actually very helpful, and tons of optional and advanced rules for all levels of play, as well as a quick reference appendix of all the monster stats from the Monster Manual.
I like the 1e Unearthed Arcana, too. Has a couple good base classes, the cavalier, and the acrobat thief with new thief skills, as well as a barbarian and new class features for some other classes. New spells, some of which are pretty iconic in later editions, like flaming sphere, and it introduces cantrips. Also has further optional rules for unarmed combat expanding on the method from the DMG.
A couple later releases for 1e that I like are the survival guides. Mostly the Dungeoneers Survival Guide, but the Wilderness Survival Guide has some use, too. These are for groups that would like help ruling on many common situations that come up in the course of adventuring that previously had no real guidelines. The Dungeoneers Guide has rules for things like holding your breath, climbing different types of surfaces and climbing for non-thieves, excavating and mining and cave-ins, using rope for bridges or swinging across chasms. Both of the Survival Guides introduce new non-weapon proficiencies as well, which you may or may not want. The wilderness guide presents rules for making the temperature and weather conditions a real hazard. I mostly like its stats for different types of mounts and land and water vehicles, as well as airborn movement. The DMG covers these things as well, but this has more of it. Ultimately, both the Survival Guides aid in a more simulationist gameplay, providing rules for many specific scenarios that had no real rulings. I would not use all or even most of the rules in these books, but they do have advice for DM's on fleshing out the environments in their worlds and give lots of ideas for rulings on many things the players and monsters are bound to attempt.

[Rhynn]

Yeah, I second the AD&D 1E DMG. It's an awesome source of ideas and inspiration and advice.

Other than that, modules. They are easily the best part of old D&D.

The entire B series (B1-12), particularly B1 In Search of the Unknown, B2 Keep on the Borderlands B4 The Lost City, B5 Horror on the Hill, and B10 Night's Dark Terror. I also freaking love B7 Rahasia (and not even the authors' names can ruin it!), in part because it was one of the handful of translated modules available when I started playing as a kid. They're mostly classic dungeon crawl modules, but B4, for instance, features several big twists on the basic set-up.

The X series (X1-13), especially X1 Isle of Dread (an absolute awesome classic; a hexcrawl exploration of a remote island of cavemen, dinosaurs, and more) and X2 Castle Amber (a funhouse dungeon tied to CAS's Averoigne).

The B and X series are both BECM, but as usual, conversion really only requires recalculating XP values (or not, since I play ACKS - I can literally use everything straight, except I need to deduct 8 from morale to get the bonus used for ACKS' morale rolls).

AD&D 1E modules... that's a much bigger list.

GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders, comprised of G1-3 Against the Giants (G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, G2 The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, G3 Halls of the Fire Giant King), D1-2 Descent into the Depths of the Earth (D1 Descent into the Depths of the Earth, D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa, and D3 Vault of the Throw), and Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits. An epic module-campaign that starts with giants and ends with facing Lolth in her domain! I've got big plans for running it in ACKS for FR some day...

The I Series is sort of all ove the place, but I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City is a classic, and I suppose everyone should at least check out I6 Ravenloft and I10 The House on Gryphon Hill, and maybe I3-5 Desert of Desolation (I3 Pharaoh, I4 Oasis of the White Palm, I5 Lost Tomb of Martek), even if that is a lot of Tracy Hickman.

N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God is a basic, solid town-and-dungeon module. N5 Under Illefarn is, IMO, completely awesome; combine it with the original 1E Forgotten Realms boxed set and Waterdeep and the North (and the original Ruins of the Undermountain) and dump everything else about the Realms ever and you've got a great campaign setting with a great starter module. Steer clear of N2 The Forest Oracle, that is seriously one of the fairly few really really bad modules published.

S1-4 Realms of Horror contains some of the classics. You can safely ignore S1 Tomb of Horrors (I found B4 plenty deadly, personally; 3 sessions in and half the party has been killed, even with ACKS' comparative lenience in the form of the Mortal Wounds table), but S2 White Plume Mountain, S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth are something else.

T1 The Village of Hommlet. If you only play/run one module ever, make it this one. (Feel free not to bother with the expanded T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil though. Not bad, but not something you can't pass up on.)

U1-3: U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, U2 Danger at Dunwater, U3 Final Enemy. A bit less dungeon-tied, but still with dungeons, excellent classic modules.

A1-4 Scourge of the Slavelords (especially A1 Slave Pits of the Undercity). Classics I'm not that crazy about myself.

C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan.

H1-4, the Bloodstone Pass series, are epic adventures with army battles; if you have access to Battlesystem (1E, always 1E over 2E!), you might enjoy them. It will also plop into FR pretty nicely if that's your thing, because part of the setting (Vaasa and, uh, the Bloodstone Pass) is from these modules.

And, as always, a very qualified recommendation for DL1-14, the original Dragonlance saga. You really should ignore all the advice about how to run the game, including cheating to save PCs' and NPCs' lives and making your players sing ridiculously cheesy songs, and you should probably have them create their own PCs instead of playing the premades, but for nostalgia (and pretty solid dungeon-crawling with a heavy plot, leading up to Battlesystem 1E warfare!) you can't beat these. Anyone who read Dragonlance as a kid will probably have a huge soft spot for all of this.

Really, almost any AD&D 1E module, or BECMI module that isn't prefaced by IM, is golden.

2E modules are a far more varied bag. Some are, IMO, unusable or unplayable, some are plain bad, but some are really solid. I like FRQ2 Hordes of Dragonspear, and I freaking love the The Ruins of Undermountain (TSR 1060, boxed set), although that one is like buying a crate of somebody's old Legos: tons of assembly required. You don't get even a single level fully keyed, but that would be insane and counter-productive anyway. It's a megadungeon starting kit, showing you how to do it and leaving you with some maps (generally the most labor-intensive and unfun part of creating a megadungeon) to do it in.

[Yora]

N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God is a basic, solid town-and-dungeon module. N5 Under Illefarn is, IMO, completely awesome; combine it with the original 1E Forgotten Realms boxed set and Waterdeep and the North (and the original Ruins of the Undermountain) and dump everything else about the Realms ever and you've got a great campaign setting with a great starter module. Steer clear of N2 The Forest Oracle, that is seriously one of the fairly few really really bad modules published.
Which reminds me that I consider The Savage Frontier one of the best settings that has been published. The 2nd edition The North includes a lot more detail, but I think generally it makes everything in the region appear to neat and tidy. But The North is a fully fleshed out setting all by itself that doesn't really require any other Forgotten Realms books. The only small problem would be descriptions of the gods, but I think it's easy enough now to get the basic information about them seperately.

[hamlet]

It all depends on what you're looking for, Yora.

Are you looking for rules? Are you looking for GM advice? Are you looking for setting stuff? Are you just looking for all around cool things?

There's TONS of stuff from the old TSR days and oodles more from the OSR that can do a body good.

Hell, if you're into Castles and Crusades, I would recommend you take a look for The Haunted Highlands series from there. Good stuff that module series.

For AD&D, the modules are just concentrated goodness. Pretty much all of them have something in them worth using, either as inspiration or outright steeling. You might want to have a quick look at the Dungeonear's Guide and the Wilderness Guide, but don't pay much money for them: they have buckets of . . . questionable advice on how to introduce things like weather, natural disasters, and "real world" cave physics into your game. There's tidbits worth having around, but not worth paying more than, say, $5 per book at most.

Second edition was ALL about settings. Even when they weren't entirely on their game, they had some really great stuff. Dark Sun (the original, not the revised mind you) was a fantastic example of what made AD&D 2e so powerful. Essentially, it took the rule set and stretched it to the breaking point, then stretched it some more, and created a unique and fantastic experience with the results. It's what 2nd edition was designed to do and is an object lesson on how to do it yourself.

You should, if you can, pick up Dragon magazines when you can. Heck, if you have the money and can find a copy, the Dragon Magazine Archive is a fantastic thing to own. All of the pre-3ed Dragon Magazines in one place, electronically. And they've all got good stuff in them. Great if you want to run an old school Greyhawk campaign, actually, since a lot of the earlier ones have loads of info on the setting, some of which is unique to the articles and not found in the boxed set.

Dungeon magazine can be fun, but is also hit or miss.

The Complete Guides To X from 2nd edition were also very hit or miss. The Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Wizard guides are all good and you can, with only a tiny bit of modification, apply them directly to Castles and Crusades. The rest of the guides were . . . problematic. Especially the Elf book.

Really, what in general are you looking for from the Old School?

[Yora]

Personally I have an interest in adventure-design and rules for interacting with the environment, while I don't care for alternate classes and new spells.

Wilderness Survival Guide seems to be the book for that, but I'm not sure if it's actually really helpful.

Mostly I am interested in learning about things that are out there that I don't even know could improve the game.

[Delvin Darkwood]

Funny, over in our group we always blasted fiend folio for being redicioulous... Guess it was a little too hard for us to look past the flail snail and the flumphs.
But i digress.
1e AD&D DMG is a must. Theres just so much information in there, so many little tips and bits of advice, not to mention the wealth of appendixes. I don't know what i would do without the random dungeon generator and the random encounter tables.
After that ide say just the core books, and maaaaybe unearthed arcana, if only for the spells. Wilderness and Dungeoneer survival guide introduce non weapons proficiencies, but its honestly just better to port those over from 2e. Nice to have though, if nothing else.
Oh, and of course, oriental adventures. Because even if you'll never be able to convince another soul to play it with you, its certainly quite interesting if nothing else.

[Rhynn]

Which reminds me that I consider The Savage Frontier one of the best settings that has been published. The 2nd edition The North includes a lot more detail, but I think generally it makes everything in the region appear to neat and tidy. But The North is a fully fleshed out setting all by itself that doesn't really require any other Forgotten Realms books. The only small problem would be descriptions of the gods, but I think it's easy enough now to get the basic information about them seperately.

Absolutely! When I decided, after a long break, to consider running the Realms again, it was with the Waterdeep and the North and The Savage Frontier, supported by the original Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (much less important). This gets rid of basically all the baggage of the Realms that people complain about, including the glut of high-level NPCs, and turns it back into an old-school setting.

Pretty much the only 2E FR books I really like anymore are The Ruins of Undermountain and some of the Volo's Guides.

I love the sparseness of a lot of the information, like the gods. I just want some spare basic details: everything else I can develop during the campaign. I include more things on case by case basis, lifting them out of the books that I want to use them, or need but don't want to re-invent something. Much of Waterdeep & The North, for instance, is tedious lists that would be a chore to come up with.

Lately, running Dark Sun in ACKS, I've also come to feel that the original (AD&D 2E) run of that setting was superior, too. I just don't like any of the Troy Denning revision (no surprise, his novels are awful!). I think removing many of the Sorcerers-Kings and the Dragon itself pretty much changes the practical setting into something else entirely: that sort of thing should be something that happens in a DM's campaign, not in the sourcebooks! So, in my ACKS Dark Sun, the Dragon is still stomping around and Kalak holds Tyr in an iron fist. (And, of course, the Cleansing Wars ended an age of sci-fi technology in the twin fires of sorcery and hydrogen bombs...)

[Yora]

I think the Revised Dark Sun Box is considered to be one of the biggest "Let's predend it never happened" things among all the D&D settings.

[Drumbum42]

I'd say "Greyhawk Adventures" is pretty cool if you're running a greyhawk setting. Or even if you're not there's a large list of gods/demi-gods that give Clerics, Paladins and Druids a more colorful selection for both good and evil.

It even goes more in-depth then other AD&D 1stE giving clerics a favorite weapon or spells depending on who their god is. Some even break the rule that clerics can't use edged weapons. I have a cleric of Celestian who uses a long sword (normally a blatant violation), but being a cleric of Celestian REQUIRES me to know how to use it. It even tells you what type of people are attracted to what type of gods, so it definitely has some RP value for those interested.

There's a lot more in it, but it is "Greyhawk Adventures" so some of it is limited to the World of GreyHawk, such as maps and kingdom histories/NPCs. I'd probably say that the DMG is the best Core book though.

Edit: changed Adventures in GreyHawk to GreyHawk Adventures

[Yora]

What exactly is the appeal of the 1st edition DMG? I've seen that one and went through it, but it seemed just like any other DMG, mostly random generation tables and some special rules for diseases and the like.
The only thing I ever used from any DMG is the magic item chapter. How is the 1st Ed. one different?

[hamlet]

Personally I have an interest in adventure-design and rules for interacting with the environment, while I don't care for alternate classes and new spells.

Wilderness Survival Guide seems to be the book for that, but I'm not sure if it's actually really helpful.

Mostly I am interested in learning about things that are out there that I don't even know could improve the game.

Ah, see, now this I can give you good advice on!:smallsmile:

OK, yes, the WSG is a good find, as is the Dungeonear's Book. Both are available for cheap as PDF's right now and I say go for them. They have rules about weather, volcanoes, starvation, animal loads, etc, not to mention pockets of poison gas in enclosed spaces, lack of breathable air, depth below the surface, etc. Very interesting reading, though it needs to be carefully sifted through for each DM to find the valuable bits.

I would also recommend the 1st edition DMG. It's a very excellent book written on the subject of "how to run a game" in 1ed (and a lot translates over to Castles and Crusades). It gives you advice on how to start up a campaign, how to design adventures (though in very brief), and how to include lots of nifty stuff in it. On top of that, there's just loads of quirky bits of info in it that you can discover over the years. I make it a point to drag it out at least once a year for inspirational reading, though I will admit that if you aren't playing an old school game, it's of less utility.

In the 2nd edition days, I would recommend a book called "Creative Campaigning" and also "Catacomb Guide" and "Castle Guide." They have lots of stuff you can integrate into any game, lots of good, frank advice that needs to be read at least now and again, and some decent ideas when you get right down to it. They teach you how to set tone, how to build worlds, and how to keep things moving. You mgiht not require all the advice, but at least 50% of it is going to be valuable to just about anybody.

I would recommend you get your hands on the original FR series, especially FR1-8? Well, up to Savage North I think. Good books that demonstrate how to take a general, vague write-up in the main boxed set and turn it into a more details and "adventure ready" sandbox, which is 90% of the work of an Old School DM. It's a good demonstrative guide in world building.

There's also a "World Builder's Guide" book for 2nd edition, though I find it a little less usefull, at least to me (it seems too . . . dunno . . . gimicky?).

Moving out of the TSR realm for half a second, I'd recommend very strongly Pathfinder's Advanced Gamemaster's Guide. A very fantastic book, and I would consider as good as Gary's 1ed DMG. Good stuff there.

Still outside that world, I would also recommend that you pick up a volume or two of the History of Middle Earth from the library and just read up on some of the stuff that the man went through to create the world of Middle Earth and the story of the destruction of The One Ring. It's kind of interesting and it has some object lessons for those who can see them, but this is a little esoteric.

Back in TSR world, do pick up some of the AD&D 1e modules and study them. Learn what they're doing. Understand why they are the way they are. Understand the difference between a tournament module (G1, G2, G3, A1, A2, A3, A4, Tomb of Horrors) and how they work and a non-tournament module (T1) and how they do what they do. There's a big difference, and a good lesson in why the "killer" reputation of old school is frequently unjustly earned by people examining tournament modules as opposed to campaign modules.

And, last, a bit of advice: understand one thing especially clearly: Old School Games do not really support "cinematic" style gaming or strong story based gaming. If you have a pre-conceived plot to go over, you probably won't be overly happy with AD&D of any stripe or flavor including C&C. You won't have epic action sequences like you see in movies as combat is slightly more realistic in that it's fast, often brutal, ugly, and bloody. As a DM, you have to create situations where there are non-combat solutions and you have to make sure that your players (or any audience you might have) understand that these solutions exist. "I waste it with my crossbow!" while exciting, is not an optimal solution in Old School Games. Convincing the orcs to look over there while you're over here taking their stuff and leaving them confused in the aftermath is a better thing and nets your more experience points to boot.

Sorry, that got overly long.:smalleek:

[BWR]

Once again I shall plug Mystara products.

The series of adventures X4- Master of the Desert Nomands, X5 The Temple of Death and X10 Red Arrow, Black Shield.
Start off as normal adventurers and work your way up to RABS, which has you running around the known world trying to broker alliances against the invader, allowing for tons of roleplaying, combat (with personal combat and two different systems for tactical and strategic combat).
RABS is less of a scripted adventure and more of framework for serious roleplaying and wargaming. If just running around and hacking at things gets boring you can play generals and have a direct hand in planning and running the wars that shake the continent.

[Rhynn]

What exactly is the appeal of the 1st edition DMG? I've seen that one and went through it, but it seemed just like any other DMG, mostly random generation tables and some special rules for diseases and the like.
The only thing I ever used from any DMG is the magic item chapter. How is the 1st Ed. one different?

If you just skim it or look at the tables, you're pretty much missing everything. Read all the text (except, I suppose, specific rules, like the psionics). It's worth it. It's full of ideas, advice, and perspectives on the game from its creator that you don't get anywhere else. It's basically the only book on playing D&D actually written by Gary Gygax (even if this was Evil TSR Gary Gygax), and can really change how you think of the game.

It's very, very different from the 2E and 3E guides, which are very clinical and impersonal. For one thing, every time you read it, you'll discover something you didn't know about the game.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a perfect guide for how to run D&D - of course not, at least for everyone - but it's extremely interesting and thought-provoking for a GM. The D&D Gygax wrote is built on assumptions wildly different from those in later editions (including AD&D 2E, which has IMO the single worst DMG, especially after the revision).

Edit: For similar reasons, read the OD&D books. They're much more sparese, but you can still keep discovering new and wonderful things. Clerics & anti-clerics, magic swords, the reason for iron rations, how doors work, and so on... OSR folk have constructed a whole concept of "Mythic Underworld" from the rules, because the dungeons as described work in at least slightly supernatural ways.

[hamlet]

. . . (including AD&D 2E, which has IMO the single worst DMG, especially after the revision) . . .


It's not that it's neccessarily bad, it's just that it's not as good as the others. It's clinical, impersonal, less quirky, less flavorful, and all around bland.

But, in the end, it's well organized, well explained for the most part, clear, and helpful. It just lacks the flair that made its predecessor so dang good.

[Rhynn]

It's not that it's neccessarily bad, it's just that it's not as good as the others. It's clinical, impersonal, less quirky, less flavorful, and all around bland.

But, in the end, it's well organized, well explained for the most part, clear, and helpful. It just lacks the flair that made its predecessor so dang good.

Yeah, okay, I was overly harsh; the AD&D DMG is very clear for explaining the rules, etc. Useful reference, all that. I never had problems using it for learning the rules, as a kid, and given how much of it surprised me reading it after many years, I must not have read it closer than that.

But aside from the lack of favor, it has bad advice. It talks about controlling your players, keeping them in check, and making sure they don't ruin your story. That is some of the worst advice you can give a GM, IMO, especially in a game of the D&D type. D&D is not a "storygame," and even in storygames, you should rely on players cooperating with you, not manipulating them!

Basically, to me, it's a book with no value at all except for the bare rules.

Also, the revised is visually far less attractive to me than the original 2E DMG (same goes for the PHB and, I think more and more these days, the original two Monstrous Compendiums compared to the Monstrous Manual). It's bland, white, and full of not-very-good and sort of soulless full-color illustrations. The art and layout of the originals are very attractive to me, and the MC VI-II art especially still captures some of that quirky charm of old AD&D art.

Some of the advice isn't actively bad: "Background details should stay there - in the background. What your characters are doing nos and will do in the future is more important than what they were and what they did." (p. 19). I think that is great advice (although obviously many will not agree).

But on the same page we have this gem: "Often they will propose eminently reasonable (and, to the DM's carefully planned adventures, quite disastrous) schemes to make their adventuring life easier." Gah! There is nothing that isn't wrong with that sentence, and the thinking it exemplifies is practically toxic.

It's not all bad, but that sort of thing is a really detrimental undercurrent for a DM Guide, I feel.

[Jay R]

The most important and useful supplement ever published was also the first one - Greyhawk. No, it wasn't about the Greyhawk campaign. It was additional rules. It introduced Thieves and Paladins, an improved hit point system, more monsters, and more importantly, it introduced the first combat system not based on a set of miniatures rules.

It thus transformed the original Dungeons and Dragons from a poorly written, ungrammatical, unplayable mess into a poorly written, ungrammatical, playable mess.

[hamlet]

Yeah, okay, I was overly harsh; the AD&D DMG is very clear for explaining the rules, etc. Useful reference, all that. I never had problems using it for learning the rules, as a kid, and given how much of it surprised me reading it after many years, I must not have read it closer than that.

But aside from the lack of favor, it has bad advice. It talks about controlling your players, keeping them in check, and making sure they don't ruin your story. That is some of the worst advice you can give a GM, IMO, especially in a game of the D&D type. D&D is not a "storygame," and even in storygames, you should rely on players cooperating with you, not manipulating them!

Basically, to me, it's a book with no value at all except for the bare rules.

Also, the revised is visually far less attractive to me than the original 2E DMG (same goes for the PHB and, I think more and more these days, the original two Monstrous Compendiums compared to the Monstrous Manual). It's bland, white, and full of not-very-good and sort of soulless full-color illustrations. The art and layout of the originals are very attractive to me, and the MC VI-II art especially still captures some of that quirky charm of old AD&D art.

Some of the advice isn't actively bad: "Background details should stay there - in the background. What your characters are doing nos and will do in the future is more important than what they were and what they did." (p. 19). I think that is great advice (although obviously many will not agree).

But on the same page we have this gem: "Often they will propose eminently reasonable (and, to the DM's carefully planned adventures, quite disastrous) schemes to make their adventuring life easier." Gah! There is nothing that isn't wrong with that sentence, and the thinking it exemplifies is practically toxic.

It's not all bad, but that sort of thing is a really detrimental undercurrent for a DM Guide, I feel.

I'm not going to disagree with this much, except to point out that there's a fair bit of equally bad advice in the 3.x DMG's. And, for that matter, I couldn't even get past the first chapter of the 4e DMG it was so cruddy.

All in all, the 2nd edition DMG isn't fantastic, but it's not a disaster and it contains, really, a couple of paragraphs of bad advice in a book that's designed not really to give advice but to delineate the rules in a clear and concise manner. And it does that quite well, better than it's predecessor in fact.

[Rhynn]

I'm not going to disagree with this much, except to point out that there's a fair bit of equally bad advice in the 3.x DMG's. And, for that matter, I couldn't even get past the first chapter of the 4e DMG it was so cruddy.

True enough. I pretty much blame AD&D 2E for 3E and 4E, though: everything wrong with those from my POV can be boiled down to the "encounters & plots" approach that 2E codified, from the DMG to the published adventures (no longer "modules", mostly). The obsession with extensive, detailed mechanics flows from the increased importance of combat, which is supported by "encounter" thinking, de-emphasizing treasure as a source of XP, and so on...

But, then, TSR was apparently mostly responding to what customers wanted, and I guess a lot of players still want that stuff. (Although I'm sure some of them would prefer the old ways if they understood them.)

[hamlet]

True enough. I pretty much blame AD&D 2E for 3E and 4E, though: everything wrong with those from my POV can be boiled down to the "encounters & plots" approach that 2E codified, from the DMG to the published adventures (no longer "modules", mostly). The obsession with extensive, detailed mechanics flows from the increased importance of combat, which is supported by "encounter" thinking, de-emphasizing treasure as a source of XP, and so on...

But, then, TSR was apparently mostly responding to what customers wanted, and I guess a lot of players still want that stuff. (Although I'm sure some of them would prefer the old ways if they understood them.)

Don't blame AD&D 2ed. It's a fine system.

Blame Weiss and Hickman and their followers who essentially entirely created "story gaming" in D&D and made it the de facto norm. It's popularity took over the entire game which, at its heart, is not at all like that.

Not that "that" is wrong, just not conducive with the AD&D rules mindset.

Sorry, we're getting off track here . . .

[nyjastul69]

You might find www.acaeum.com a helpful site for D&D and AD&D products produced prior to 1990.

[skyth]

Some modules I like...

First one I read (Before I even got the game) was B2...Keep on the borderland. I also like B3 (Palace of the Silver Princess) but my favorite is B5 (Horror on the hill. Love the trap in that module. I've run this one in 3.5). In the Immortal line, there is The Immortal Storm (I believe) where you adventure in New York City :)

I also really like Isle of the Abbey from Dungeon Magazine. Have run it in 3.0 and in 3.5 (seperate groups). Granted, I always do some changes when I run them to make them appropriate for the world/group.

AD&D, The G/D/Q series is a classic. I also like the U series (Always had a deep abiding love for Lizard Men, plus this has lead to my liking to use Sauhaugin (sp?) as enemies. Most recent player kill is from a couple of those). Village of Homlet/Temple of Elemental Evil is a classic as well.

[ken-do-nim]

Yeah, I second the AD&D 1E DMG. It's an awesome source of ideas and inspiration and advice.

Other than that, modules. They are easily the best part of old D&D.

The entire B series (B1-12), particularly B1 In Search of the Unknown, B2 Keep on the Borderlands B4 The Lost City, B5 Horror on the Hill, and B10 Night's Dark Terror. I also freaking love B7 Rahasia (and not even the authors' names can ruin it!), in part because it was one of the handful of translated modules available when I started playing as a kid. They're mostly classic dungeon crawl modules, but B4, for instance, features several big twists on the basic set-up.

The X series (X1-13), especially X1 Isle of Dread (an absolute awesome classic; a hexcrawl exploration of a remote island of cavemen, dinosaurs, and more) and X2 Castle Amber (a funhouse dungeon tied to CAS's Averoigne).

The B and X series are both BECM, but as usual, conversion really only requires recalculating XP values (or not, since I play ACKS - I can literally use everything straight, except I need to deduct 8 from morale to get the bonus used for ACKS' morale rolls).

AD&D 1E modules... that's a much bigger list.

GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders, comprised of G1-3 Against the Giants (G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, G2 The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, G3 Halls of the Fire Giant King), D1-2 Descent into the Depths of the Earth (D1 Descent into the Depths of the Earth, D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa, and D3 Vault of the Throw), and Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits. An epic module-campaign that starts with giants and ends with facing Lolth in her domain! I've got big plans for running it in ACKS for FR some day...

The I Series is sort of all ove the place, but I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City is a classic, and I suppose everyone should at least check out I6 Ravenloft and I10 The House on Gryphon Hill, and maybe I3-5 Desert of Desolation (I3 Pharaoh, I4 Oasis of the White Palm, I5 Lost Tomb of Martek), even if that is a lot of Tracy Hickman.

N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God is a basic, solid town-and-dungeon module. N5 Under Illefarn is, IMO, completely awesome; combine it with the original 1E Forgotten Realms boxed set and Waterdeep and the North (and the original Ruins of the Undermountain) and dump everything else about the Realms ever and you've got a great campaign setting with a great starter module. Steer clear of N2 The Forest Oracle, that is seriously one of the fairly few really really bad modules published.

S1-4 Realms of Horror contains some of the classics. You can safely ignore S1 Tomb of Horrors (I found B4 plenty deadly, personally; 3 sessions in and half the party has been killed, even with ACKS' comparative lenience in the form of the Mortal Wounds table), but S2 White Plume Mountain, S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth are something else.

T1 The Village of Hommlet. If you only play/run one module ever, make it this one. (Feel free not to bother with the expanded T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil though. Not bad, but not something you can't pass up on.)

U1-3: U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, U2 Danger at Dunwater, U3 Final Enemy. A bit less dungeon-tied, but still with dungeons, excellent classic modules.

A1-4 Scourge of the Slavelords (especially A1 Slave Pits of the Undercity). Classics I'm not that crazy about myself.

C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan.

H1-4, the Bloodstone Pass series, are epic adventures with army battles; if you have access to Battlesystem (1E, always 1E over 2E!), you might enjoy them. It will also plop into FR pretty nicely if that's your thing, because part of the setting (Vaasa and, uh, the Bloodstone Pass) is from these modules.

And, as always, a very qualified recommendation for DL1-14, the original Dragonlance saga. You really should ignore all the advice about how to run the game, including cheating to save PCs' and NPCs' lives and making your players sing ridiculously cheesy songs, and you should probably have them create their own PCs instead of playing the premades, but for nostalgia (and pretty solid dungeon-crawling with a heavy plot, leading up to Battlesystem 1E warfare!) you can't beat these. Anyone who read Dragonlance as a kid will probably have a huge soft spot for all of this.

Really, almost any AD&D 1E module, or BECMI module that isn't prefaced by IM, is golden.

2E modules are a far more varied bag. Some are, IMO, unusable or unplayable, some are plain bad, but some are really solid. I like FRQ2 Hordes of Dragonspear, and I freaking love the The Ruins of Undermountain (TSR 1060, boxed set), although that one is like buying a crate of somebody's old Legos: tons of assembly required. You don't get even a single level fully keyed, but that would be insane and counter-productive anyway. It's a megadungeon starting kit, showing you how to do it and leaving you with some maps (generally the most labor-intensive and unfun part of creating a megadungeon) to do it in.

Excellent post ... except for the mention of I10, which though it's been 30 years since I looked at seared my brain with badness (the ending, that is).

[Rhynn]

Excellent post ... except for the mention of I10, which though it's been 30 years since I looked at seared my brain with badness (the ending, that is).

I only mentioned it because it's one of the two classic Ravenloft modules. (I think both are full of dumb puns, etc.? And the authors aren't exactly my favorites...) I actually think AD&D Ravenloft is kind of bad overall; the system does not work well with the horror premise, and the horror element is not even treated right, mostly. (Plus Gothic Horror isn't really even scary to begin with... it's just a sort of macabre gothic aesthetic.) The 3E Ravenloft material was actually better in tone, for all that the mechanics are excessive... I'd probably run Ravenloft as an All Flesh Must Be Eaten hack or an ACKS hack using the 3E material for fluff.

I'm glad you approve of the rest, though; that's a high enough success rate! :smallbiggrin:

[MeeposFire]

I actually don't think Ravenloft is really supposed to be scary. It is more about the Gothic Horror and its trappings and by horror I just mean the themes and fun of that. Those stories are not scary in the sense that we often see today.

[hamlet]

I only mentioned it because it's one of the two classic Ravenloft modules. (I think both are full of dumb puns, etc.? And the authors aren't exactly my favorites...) I actually think AD&D Ravenloft is kind of bad overall; the system does not work well with the horror premise, and the horror element is not even treated right, mostly. (Plus Gothic Horror isn't really even scary to begin with... it's just a sort of macabre gothic aesthetic.) The 3E Ravenloft material was actually better in tone, for all that the mechanics are excessive... I'd probably run Ravenloft as an All Flesh Must Be Eaten hack or an ACKS hack using the 3E material for fluff.

I'm glad you approve of the rest, though; that's a high enough success rate! :smallbiggrin:

No, I10 is objectively bad. It's the poster child for bad adventure design, or at least should be.

"The PC's will adhere to the plot. Any attempt to deviate from the plot will be punished. The PC's will adhere . . ."

[SiuiS]

Castle amber railroads you with mule-mutilating mist, so...

[Rhynn]

No, I10 is objectively bad. It's the poster child for bad adventure design, or at least should be.

"The PC's will adhere to the plot. Any attempt to deviate from the plot will be punished. The PC's will adhere . . ."

That sure sounds like Tracy Hickman...

[Khedrac]

No, I10 is objectively bad. It's the poster child for bad adventure design, or at least should be.
Not to mention that if the random factor goes wrong early the players won't be able to meet certain characters.

I always thought i failed due to the un-thought-through encounters. There's an undead 18th level cleric in there with no listed spells. What cleric in his/her/its right mind won't have Unholy Word memorized? - If it does and the party meet it (not automatic) they will lose. End of adventure.

Yes, the nastiest encounter in the module is a "minor" one they did not bother to stat out properly.

[hamlet]

Not to mention that the plot itself puts Schlock in a good light.

[ken-do-nim]

Castle amber railroads you with mule-mutilating mist, so...

Mechanics that keep the party in the adventure until they solve it or die trying aren't in the same league as mechanics that force the adventure to proceed exactly as written. You as the DM need to be entertained, and the primary source of that comes from having no clue as to how things will turn out. Take that away, and you might as well read a book out loud to the group. Both Castle Amber X2 and Ravenloft I6 have the former mechanic, yet there are lots of stories on the internet about "how they turned out" with lots of variation (more I6 than X2). I've never once read a story about I10.

[Rhynn]

Mechanics that keep the party in the adventure until they solve it or die trying aren't in the same league as mechanics that force the adventure to proceed exactly as written. You as the DM need to be entertained, and the primary source of that comes from having no clue as to how things will turn out. Take that away, and you might as well read a book out loud to the group. Both Castle Amber X2 and Ravenloft I6 have the former mechanic, yet there are lots of stories on the internet about "how they turned out" with lots of variation (more I6 than X2). I've never once read a story about I10.

Yeah, there's a big difference between railroad plot (basically anything by Tracy Hickman, like the DL series) and a limited-size sandbox, like I6 and X2 are.

[nyjastul69]

Yeah, there's a big difference between railroad plot (basically anything by Tracy Hickman, like the DL series) and a limited-size sandbox, like I6 and X2 are.

I6 was coauthor by Tracy Hickman. I agree that the DL series is trash, but some of his other work is very good. I6 being one of them, along with the Desert of Desolation series.

[WbtE]

Most of what I came here to say has already been written. The list of modules provided upthread is excellent. The only thing left is that the 2e Historical guides (Green books) were pretty good as period introductions go.

[Rhynn]

I6 was coauthor by Tracy Hickman. I agree that the DL series is trash, but some of his other work is very good. I6 being one of them, along with the Desert of Desolation series.

I'm not saying his stuff is (all) trash: I freaking love Dragonlance (mostly nostalgia, Dragons of Autumn Twilight was the first fantasy novel I read other than LotR and The Hobbit), and badly want to run it in ACKS as a sort of exercise in breaking the rails (using none of the canon PCs and none of the horrible railroading advice). But he is my least favorite module author, because his stuff is the most problematic (and had awful results).

[nyjastul69]

I'm not saying his stuff is (all) trash: I freaking love Dragonlance (mostly nostalgia, Dragons of Autumn Twilight was the first fantasy novel I read other than LotR and The Hobbit), and badly want to run it in ACKS as a sort of exercise in breaking the rails (using none of the canon PCs and none of the horrible railroading advice). But he is my least favorite module author, because his stuff is the most problematic (and had awful results).

I apologize then. It sounded, to me, like you were saying 'anything by him is trash, like DL', not 'anything like DL by him is trash'. I agree with the latter, not the former. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I guess what I'm saying is the initial railroad for I6 and I3-5 can be fixed. The railroad of DL1-14 is difficult because the train runs straight through all of them, not just the set-up. Do note, I love DL as a setting, just not the DL's. They were the most difficult modules I've ever tried to DM.

[Rhynn]

I guess what I'm saying is the initial railroad for I6 and I3-5 can be fixed. The railroad of DL1-14 is difficult because the train runs straight through all of them, not just the set-up. Do note, I love DL as a setting, just not the DL's. They were the most difficult modules I've ever tried to DM.

I'm really curious to see how badly my players can go off the reservation. DL1 is a very straightforward dungeon adventure after the really week hook (leaving Solace, the PCs have no idea where to go, but any direction ends up with heavy hints or railroading to go to the dungeon). I think that once the PCs are involved in the greater events, it will be easy to lead them from important location to important location, while letting them happily murder any villains, etc. they manage to (without cheating them of their victories, as the modules explicitly advise you to do!).

I also love the prospect of running the war with ACKS' Domains at War rules. The modules with Battlesystem scenarios (e.g. the battle at the High Clerist tower) are my favorites.

Plus half the people involved (myself and one of the players) have serious nostalgia love for Dragonlance from reading the novels as younglings...

[ken-do-nim]

I'm really curious to see how badly my players can go off the reservation. DL1 is a very straightforward dungeon adventure after the really week hook (leaving Solace, the PCs have no idea where to go, but any direction ends up with heavy hints or railroading to go to the dungeon).

I've never run the DL series, but reading comments from those who have, it seems that DL-1 is held in fairly high regard.

[CE DM]

I apologize then. It sounded, to me, like you were saying 'anything by him is trash, like DL', not 'anything like DL by him is trash'. I agree with the latter, not the former. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I guess what I'm saying is the initial railroad for I6 and I3-5 can be fixed. The railroad of DL1-14 is difficult because the train runs straight through all of them, not just the set-up. Do note, I love DL as a setting, just not the DL's. They were the most difficult modules I've ever tried to DM.

The I series modules by him ARE railroads, but they are great adventures none the less.

Railroads aren't always so terrible a thing for anyone, and some players are better off with them than with a sandbox.

Nothing is gained by ALWAYS doing things one way

On topic, the planescape stuff for 2e can be fun; certainly the monster books at least, and some of the adventures, such as Dead Gods, a truly awesome book.

Most everything else has been brought up, although there are probably a few 2e modules worth mentioning, like Return to the Tomb of Horrors, A Paladin in Hell, The Gates of Firestorm Peak, The Rod of Seven Parts, Night Below, A Darkness Gathering, Masters of Eternal Night, Dawn of the Overmind, & Return of the Eight

More could be mentioned, from ravenloft, planescape, etc.

Then there are classics that simply weren't TSR products, such as Judge's Guild's Dark Tower, Caverns Of Thracia, etc