Druids and spell resistance-

[Lokd0wn]

I'm currently playing in a campaign as a druid. It's been heavily hinted at that we will come across a Dragon quite soon so naturally I had a look for spells to combat them. Downdraft in particular caught my eye as did a few others but nearly all of them allow for SR. I was wondering what ways are best specifically for a druid to either pierce SR or combat dragons in general. Do bear in mind that getting/crafting items won't be a possibility and my party is a cleric (combat focused), a fighter/barb (pretty useless), a scout/ranger (standard swift Hunter) and me (druid with greenbound summoning and leopard animal companion).

[eggynack]

Just cast things that don't touch spell resistance. You already have a summoning focus, so tossing out flying summons is a good idea. Past that, you'd probably want the spells you use for enemy killing to be of the right level, so what level are you? Ultimately, you don't need any resources to overcome SR, because not everything you do relies on SR.

[Lokd0wn]

Oh yeah me and the rest of the party are level 7. Also due to the fact that greenbound summoning is a bit too good I agreed to only use it once per day per spell level.

[RolandDeschain]

Oh yeah me and the rest of the party are level 7. Also due to the fact that greenbound summoning is a bit too good I agreed to only use it once per day per spell level.

Well you've gotta burn that "once per day" for sure :)

4th Level Druid Spells that don't allow for SR:

-Arc of Lightning
-Blast of Sand
-Hurtling Stone
-Lava Splash
-Murderous Mist(damage + blinded)

Please note this is not at all optimal, as it turns your Druid into a blaster and each of those spells allow for a save. I'm sure there are also more spells as well, I just looked at the 4th level ones.

[eggynack]

Splinterbolt is a pretty notable one, on the things that blast without SR list. Summons are always a reasonable option, though there aren't many good flying options at IV, and buffs are always decent.

[Talya]

This should go without saying (and if you have a party wizard or sorcerer, get them to do it instead of you, since they can do it as a 3rd level spell), but definitely remember to dispel any dragon before fighting it. There are some incredible self-buffs for dragons (scintillating scales, anyone?) that makes it really hard to hit them -- and if you're using splinterbolt, you are going to need to roll well to have a shot. (better yet to confirm that crit on the 18-20/x3 modifier it's got). However, their caster level tends to be very low, so they can't overcome a dispel magic that easily.

[eggynack]

4th Level Druid Spells that don't allow for SR:

-Arc of Lightning
-Blast of Sand
-Hurtling Stone
-Lava Splash
-Murderous Mist(damage + blinded)

That's a fancy little list of instantaneous conjurations you've got there, apart from murderous mist, which has a duration. Shooting golems inside of AMF's is a fun thing. Now, I just need to figure out which of those four is best, cause there can only be one. Arc of lightning is problematic, in that you need two separate targets, which means that in this presumably party V. dragon scenario, the druid might have to target himself or an ally. Not a lot of fun, and it's a restriction in general. Also, close range is annoying.

Blast of sand is nice up through level 10, and as the common wisdom states, a druid doesn't care about damage caps if he's before it. The range is low, but the damage type is great. That might just be the best option. Hurtling stone is only any good for the prone effect, and a little bit for the range, but the low damage and the reflex negates are not a good thing. Lava splash is both low damage and low range, so I don't see much reason to take it over blast of sand. Thus, I think that's the one worth recommending. I think that logic holds up. If I'm correct, then I guess that blast of sand is the third best druid blasting spell of its level. Hooray, I suppose.

[Lokd0wn]

Some great replies here guys. My usual M.O. is Blinding Spittle/Kelpstranding everything in sight with a healthy side dish of Mass Snakes Swiftness, Entangle and Sleet Storm all while in Desmodu Hunting Bat form of course.


Well you've gotta burn that "once per day" for sure :)

Oh you can bet your bollocks to barndance that dragon is getting 1d4+1 greenbound Hippogriffs to the face.


Splinterbolt is a pretty notable one, on the things that blast without SR list.

Even with my total ranged attack modifier of +12 I'm still a bit leery of actually trying to hit it's normal AC. That's something the Swift Hunter is much more suited for.


I think that logic holds up. If I'm correct, then I guess that blast of sand is the third best druid blasting spell of its level.

Just out of interest what are second and first?

[killem2]

Don't even sweat SR.

I just fought what I think was the oldest of the Huge Sized red dragons, and all I did was keep summoning dire badgers and eventually went up to dire lions because I had so many surrounding it.

THe wizard plopped a couple grease spells in it's area, and summoned some of her own beats, and we just mowed it down.

it attempted to fly away once, and triggered so many AoAs, that it hurt it self really badly.


Greenbound laughs at dragons for the most part.

In addition to that, I'm level 9 now, so, animal growth is going to embarrass the next dragon we fight.

But if you can only use it once per day, use it on your biggest baddest beat stick because you want it sticking around for the long haul, get some unicorns in there to help you with their circles and healing for your plant dude. then just keep it in once spot.



Oh you can bet your bollocks to barndance that dragon is getting 1d4+1 greenbound Hippogriffs to the face.

Also, you can't greenbound hippogriffs.

[eggynack]

Just out of interest what are second and first?
Boreal wind is definitely the best blasting spell of its level, and I think that flame strike comes in at a distant second. It might be vortex of teeth though. Flame strike's just kinda boring.

[Phelix-Mu]

My favorite druid tricks for beating SR all involve green slime (DMG 76). While I'm not sure any of them are online by level 7, I'm sure we can put our heads together and come up with some way to creatively use green slime even at low levels. Plant manipulating spells treat slime as a plant, and there are a good number of those on the druid spell list. Hehehe.

Give a glass flask of green slime to a bird and have them drop it on the target. Glass breaks, green slime starts eating the target. Alternatively, and rather evilly, summon something, apply the green slime to it, and have it kamikaze into the side of the target.

[Lokd0wn]

Also, you can't greenbound hippogriffs.

Damn forgot that greenbound only applies to animals. I guess it will have to be a more modest armada of giant eagles.

[eggynack]

My favorite druid tricks for beating SR all involve green slime (DMG 76). While I'm not sure any of them are online by level 7, I'm sure we can put our heads together and come up with some way to creatively use green slime even at low levels. Plant manipulating spells treat slime as a plant, and there are a good number of those on the druid spell list. Hehehe.

Give a glass flask of green slime to a bird and have them drop it on the target. Glass breaks, green slime starts eating the target. Alternatively, and rather evilly, summon something, apply the green slime to it, and have it kamikaze into the side of the target.
Is there any way to pick up green slime outside of slime wave? I can't say I'm too familiar with green slime optimization, if that truly is a thing.

Damn forgot that greenbound only applies to animals. I guess it will have to be a more modest armada of giant eagles.
This is a tragic little statement you've just made. You should probably read the giant eagle monster entry again. There's a disappointingly small number of options for this.

[KillianHawkeye]

Damn forgot that greenbound only applies to animals. I guess it will have to be a more modest armada of giant eagles.

Giant Eagles are magical beasts (on accound of being based on the intelligent giant eagles that always come to save Gandalf in LotR and The Hobbit).

[Phelix-Mu]

Green slime is a thing in the game world. It's availability is up to the DM, but since it is noted as being a common bane of miners and dwarves, I assume one could find it with but some time and some Knowledge(nature) or Knowledge(dungeoneering). A glass container should work to contain it: if not, a ceramic pot should work. It eats everything besides stone, so the DM needs to rule on if fused silica is a mineral.

In any case, once you reach 9th, you can get some and awaken it. Now, the green slime is mobile and sentient. Control it will spells (or Diplomancy) and now you have a walking green slime factory. While the rate of growth of green slime is not evidenced in the RAW,

DMG 76:

Green Slime (CR 4): This dungeon peril is a dangerous variety
of normal slime. Green slime devours flesh and organic materials
on contact and is even capable of dissolving metal. Bright green,
wet, and sticky, it clings to walls, floors, and ceilings in patches,
reproducing as it consumes organic matter. It drops from walls
and ceilings when it detects movement (and possible food) below.
A single 5-foot square of green slime deals 1d6 points of Constitution
damage per round while it devours flesh. On the first
round of contact, the slime can be scraped off a creature (most
likely destroying the scraping device), but after that it must be
frozen, burned, or cut away (dealing damage to the victim as
well). Anything that deals cold or fire damage, sunlight, or a
remove disease spell destroys a patch of green slime. Against
wood or metal, green slime deals 2d6 points of damage per
round, ignoring metal’s hardness but not that of wood. It does
not harm stone.
Dwarves consider green slime to be one of the worst hazards
of mining and underground construction. They have their own
ways of burning it out of infested areas, methods that they say are
thorough. “If you don’t do it proper, the stuff comes right back,”
they claim.

The bold indicates it grows as it consumes organic matter. So, it grows, and you can use the sentient green slime to make more, given time. Bottle it, and next we probably need to get into some Tippy Time Tricks:

1.) Shrink item on the X number of bottles of green slime.
2.) Put the shrunk bottles into a container.
3.) Have some way of dispelling the contents of the container when it breaks.
4.) Drop X patches of green slime on the target, where x should probably be capped by the number of 5' squares in the creature's space.
5.) Creature takes Xd6 Con damage each round, and probably just dies.
6.) Now you have more green slime!

Note, green slime would treat creatures without a Con score as OBJECTS. Thus, objects made of organic materials (the undead) probably just get dissolved and turned into green slime. Not 100% clear cut RAW here, but hey, what is these days?

Okay, before I get any more excited,
/rant

EDIT: For hundred-percent safeguards, this plan needs to be out of the direct sunlight, and ideally have the slime somehow immune to fire or cold damage. That's tricky, but as long as our dragon target doesn't have a breath weapon that is either fire or cold, and it lives in a cave, it's likely screwed.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure that green slime stacks in the way you're indicating, as the unit of green slime measurement is a five foot square of green slime, and you can't really have two five foot squares of green slime in a five foot square. You might be able to hit a large creature for more, or something. Still, that's a goodly amount of stuff to think about. Awakened green slime seems pretty amusing, even if it doesn't have all the other tricks associated with it.

Separately, I just came up with a nifty idea, vaguely related to yours in naught but vague effect. I've been trying to come up with the best way to use stone metamorphosis, and in particular the sick stone producing application thereof. Sickstone radiates light in a 40 ft. radius that deals 1d6 con damage on a failed DC 15 fort save, and more importantly, it deals 1 con damage on a passed fort save. It's a strong effect, but it's not easy to use, because holding the stuff is incredibly dangerous, and even if you're immune in one of the various ways, just getting into proximity with your party is a bad idea. Thus, problems. My solution, or the one I just came up with, is wood wose. I'm pretty sure that wood wose can hold sickstone without dying, and at level 8, you can easily stick the wood wose 45 ft. in front of the party. It's not a perfect solution, but the goal is mitigation. In all situations, your party is lead by a deadly glow held by a translucent green nature spirit. Seems neat, especially in open areas.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm not sure that green slime stacks in the way you're indicating, as the unit of green slime measurement is a five foot square of green slime, and you can't really have two five foot squares of green slime in a five foot square. You might be able to hit a large creature for more, or something. Still, that's a goodly amount of stuff to think about. Awakened green slime seems pretty amusing, even if it doesn't have all the other tricks associated with it.

Separately, I just came up with a nifty idea, vaguely related to yours in naught but vague effect. I've been trying to come up with the best way to use stone metamorphosis, and in particular the sick stone producing application thereof. Sickstone radiates light in a 40 ft. radius that deals 1d6 con damage on a failed DC 15 fort save, and more importantly, it deals 1 con damage on a passed fort save. It's a strong effect, but it's not easy to use, because holding the stuff is incredibly dangerous, and even if you're immune in one of the various ways, just getting into proximity with your party is a bad idea. Thus, problems. My solution, or the one I just came up with, is wood wose. I'm pretty sure that wood wose can hold sickstone without dying, and at level 8, you can easily stick the wood wose 45 ft. in front of the party. It's not a perfect solution, but the goal is mitigation. In all situations, your party is lead by a deadly glow held by a translucent green nature spirit. Seems neat, especially in open areas.

Yeah, I think that mike work. A bogun is a construct too? You could make one and have it carry it. But wood wose is probably simpler. Forest child might be a higher level option, but rater more expensive and probably less efficient than wood wose (but with added utility and applications for which you might already be wanting a forest child for).

A lot of my best tricks are optimized for an AH, of course (see my sig). But the druid list is actually capable of most of the best fun that can be had, and I really find the more valuable of the wiz spells to my tricks at the lower levels (4th and below).

I'd also advise use of ring gates for sickstone utilization. Not cheap or druid-based, but you can easily hold the sickstone at a distance of greater than 40' by just having the sickstone in a bag with darkness cast on its interior, along with the ring gate. Toss the other ring gate where you want to deal the damage (ideally have some minion place it or use greater mage hand or some such), then reach into the bag, pick up the sickstone, and put it through the gate.

Could be a good way to have someone steal your ring gate, though.

EDIT: I think I covered the damage stacking with my note on X being limited by the number of 5' squares in the creature's space.

[eggynack]

Yeah, I think that mike work. A bogun is a construct too? You could make one and have it carry it. But wood wose is probably simpler. Forest child might be a higher level option, but rater more expensive and probably less efficient than wood wose (but with added utility and applications for which you might already be wanting a forest child for).
I don't even think a wood wose is a construct. It's mostly just a weird thing that doesn't seem to be hurt by this. As for wood wose and forest child, You need 8th level spells for either one, which is a bit on the high side.


A lot of my best tricks are optimized for an AH, of course (see my sig). But the druid list is actually capable of most of the best fun that can be had, and I really find the more valuable of the wiz spells to my tricks at the lower levels (4th and below).
Yeah, I've been pretty impressed on a continual basis by how much crazy stuff a druid can pull off. I have way too many half baked druid tricks lying around. I should probably make a thread out of them at some point. I can probably tick off sickstone by this point, which is a nice thing.


I'd also advise use of ring gates for sickstone utilization. Not cheap or druid-based, but you can easily hold the sickstone at a distance of greater than 40' by just having the sickstone in a bag with darkness cast on its interior, along with the ring gate. Toss the other ring gate where you want to deal the damage (ideally have some minion place it or use greater mage hand or some such), then reach into the bag, pick up the sickstone, and put it through the gate.
Yeah, that stuff would probably work, I think. The advantage that I think wood wose has is that it's ultimately pretty cheap. You just cast it in the morning, toss your sickstone pebble to the wood wose, and fun is yours. You can even have the wood wose do his usual thing involving dealing with traps or opening doors. Wood wose is a neat little spell.


EDIT: I think I covered the damage stacking with my note on X being limited by the number of 5' squares in the creature's space.
Right. Missed that part.

[Phelix-Mu]

My favorite druid trick that I came up with involved burrow root wild shape. Not really a trick, actually, and I'm still not clear on the RAW for it (though the DM allowed it). Basically, just make an army of burrow roots using their Split ability. Controlling them is less easy, but within days you can arrange to have a stupidly large number of minions. It was in a situation where control was the least of my druid's problems; she was facing the archetypal endless horde bent on the destruction of everything, and she just needed bodies to point in their direction.

Only available after 12th, though.

[eggynack]

Well, it probably doesn't work natively, because split is a special action or something, but enhance wild shape can get you any and all Ex abilities, so you can pick it up. It's a rather slow army to build, and their allegiance is spotty and questionable, as you noted, but it could work. I should likely add it to my wild shape list. You've always gotta be looking for odd uses of enhance wild shape. Also, what the hell is up with speed burrow? That's a frigging weird ability. It's like druidic abrupt jaunt for loose soil or something. Worth adding for that, even if the split thing doesn't end up working out.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, I am also not sure it works. But, in the stat block, "Split" appears next to SA (which I take to mean Special Attacks), so...it's all rather confusing since they changed the format for the later Monster Manuals. Don't druids get Special Attacks while in wild shape? I'm totally unclear on the later errata to wild shape which turned the whole ability into a bit of a goose chase around the books and the errata.

[eggynack]

Oh, yeah, it shows up twice. Yeah, that'd work. I was reading it under the special action label, rather than the SA/SQ section.

[Lokd0wn]

This is a tragic little statement you've just made. You should probably read the giant eagle monster entry again. There's a disappointingly small number of options for this.

Oh FML so what is the best flying SNA option for the Greenbound summoner?

[eggynack]

Oh FML so what is the best flying SNA option for the Greenbound summoner?
I dunno actually. There's honestly not much. Ya can't even use summon dire hawk, cause you need it to be SNA. Thus, off to the summoner's desk reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255219). You get eagles and owls at level one, dire bats at level two, zero things at three, and also apparently nothing at two. So, dire bats I guess? Weird. I mean, there are definitely other summons, but no flying animals that I can see.

[Lokd0wn]

Righto lets scratch SNA off the list (my DM is sick and tired of me throwing Greenbound Dire Wolves at things anyway).

Kelpstrand isn't completely useless as due to our location I've been allowed the misc +4 bonus so the total grapple mod for them is +16 which isn't bad, plus I get two strands per casting. Blinding Spittle probably won't work due to the nature of the enemies we're facing (Plane of Shadow shenanigans abound).

Any other suggestions?

[eggynack]

Ya mean specifically for dragons? Cause that seems like not-dragon stuff. Anyways, I don't have anything as fancy as a comprehensive list of SR: no druid spells, though I'm starting to reconsider things along those lines, but I do have the crazy handbook I've been working on. I could PM that over, if you're interested. Mostly spell stuff right now. It's probably the most lengthy and detailed breakdown of druid spells currently in existence, though it's also quite unfinished.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember -- Dire Eagles are the animal version, Giant Eagles are the magical beast version...

[killem2]

Here is a list of SR no, druid spells, that also have damage in its description.

http://tinyurl.com/km6v7ux


Sorry had to shrink it down, dndtools, filter page has a crap url system. :smallyuk: It's what I used for my druid.