Tarquin: Narcissist with a death-wish, having already lost everything

[Xzenu]

Hi everyone.

Having read much (but probably not most) of the Tarquin discussions on this forum, I find myself seeing him in a slightly different light than most people I have read.

First of all, I think storytelling and narrative conventions (tropes) are far less important to him than he would like his audience to believe. His problem is not Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (extreme lawfulness) or fanaticism (fanatic belief in narrative). Sure, he might have a higher-than-healthy dose of those. But they pale in comparison to his plain old narcissism.

The lawfulness and belief in stories may seem stronger than they are, because they are his primary tools. He use them to analyze and to convince/manipulate others. However, they are his tools rather than his motivation. His motivation is all about himself. As Julio pointed out, the world of Tarquin is all about Tarquin.

We all know his goal: To die a spectacular death and leave behind a great legacy. We also know that he have had this goal for a very long time.

However, Tarquin talked about two options, claiming that he would win either way. Why settle for one, if you can have the other too?

The best option for Tarquin would be to be dramatically killed by Elan, but have his empire survive under the rule of Malack. Big dreams, all turned to ash.

Lets have a look at what Tarquin has lost lately.

1. He lost his best friend (Malack), and also his favorite son (Nale). He probably mourn for them both, in his own twisted way - unable to express his grief to himself in ways that aren't completely self-centered.

2. More importantly, he has lost his favored heir. Malack was not merely his best friend, he was the guy who would be raising the huge statues to his memory. Which, to such a true narcissist, is far more important. With Malack's death, Tarquin lost his chance to have plan A (having the cake and eating it too) or even plan B (winning). All that remains is plan C, to be plain and simply defeated by Elan.

3. With his own team unlikely to "enable" him further and with Elan and the order unwilling to accept his help, his chances of being central to the future plot is abysmal. Having managed to spin the recent history of the continent into a story that revolves around him, he has now stepped into a larger story. Larger, more interesting, and with no spotlight for him. What could possibly be scarier, to a true narcissist?

It is not that Tarquin has "miscalculated" or "failed to see" his own lack of importance in the plot. On the contrary, it is that this fact scares him. His reaction has been that of so many real life narcissists before him: To make himself relevant, at any cost. Many threads have mentioned how Tarquin "has overstayed his welcome". "Like any stalker", I'd like to add.

Going after Roy is completely logical. This is not about Elan's spotlight, it's about Tarquin's OWN spotlight. Elan is the audience, and petty old dad is gonna get his undivided attention no matter the cost. Also, to hell with being a mere arc villain! The guy who manages to kill off the heroes is the de facto main villain after all. Leaving one traumatized survivor to swear revenge gives room for a sequel, but more importantly an audience who will think of him for every moment of every day for the rest of his life.

Does Tarquin think that he will pull this off? Well, at this point I don't think he cares. His plan is rapidly devolving from "expend resources to assert my own relevance" to "suicide by cop - or suicide by heroes, as the case may be".

My guess for Tarquin's death:

Roy, Haley or Julio pushes Tarquin off the ship. As Tarquin loses his grip, he turns to Elan and says "I love you, my son" as his final words in life before he falls to his death. If there's an epilogue in hell, he will use it to brag to Sabine about how he made Elan grieve for him forever and how this will destroy Elan's relationship with the killer. However, Elan will eventually snap out of it and prove his dad wrong.

[Zerozzz0290]

I really enjoy this analysis of the character. It's true, there aren't many people acknowledging Tarquin's Narcissism in the boards.

[Everyl]

An interesting analysis, but the death prediction doesn't really hold up. Tarquin could tank maximum falling damage with little difficulty, and even if he was injured when he fell, he'd probably be fully healed by the time he hit the ground with his Ring of Ludicrously Fast Healing.

[Xzenu]

I really enjoy this analysis of the character.

Thanks. :smallsmile:


he'd probably be fully healed by the time he hit the ground with his Ring of Ludicrously Fast Healing.

Whether or not Tarquin will run out of hitpoints is entirely up to whatever the author find suitable. Files under "travels at the speed of plot". I find it unlikely that Burlew would keep the character in play after such a death-scene. But that's beside the point anyway...

Bottom line: IF Tarquin is killed off by Roy, Haley or Julio, how will it affect Elan emotionally? And would Tarquin want to spend his last breath on trying to make Elan obsess over his death for the rest of his life? My answers are "probably badly after all" and "hell yeah!".

[TroubleBrewing]

I was expecting another hate-on-big-T thread, but this was surprisingly well-reasoned, and I find myself hoping for something like this outcome.

Well done. Have an internet.

[Xzenu]

Whups, I just realized I left out a word. When I wrote "However, Tarquin talked about two options, claiming that he would win either way. Why settle for one, if you can have the other?", I really meant: "However, Tarquin talked about two options, claiming that he would win either way. Why settle for one, if you can have the other too?"

The two options was to be defeated by Elan or to let his empire survive. Tarquin planned to have it both ways. But with Malack dead, his Tarquin's glorious legacy is off the table. No big statues for him. Poor guy. :smallbiggrin:

[Muenster Man]

Good analysis, it would be interesting to see if Tarquin's death causes a rift between him and his friends. He wasn't happy with the idea of killing his clearly-evil brother, I doubt his reaction would be much better at the death of his father, especially if Tarquin toys with his emotions like that.

His reaction has been that of so many real life narcissists before him: To make himself relevant, at any cost.

Reminds me a lot of how Nale attempted to make himself relevant once it became clear the spotlight was off of him (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html)).

[BaronOfHell]

I don't think Malack's kingdom would hold for the same reason a unified empire would attract the business of other kingdoms.

Malack could maybe have kept up the facade, but it doesn't sound like that was his intention with statues, vampire society across all empires and in general Nergal all over the place.

Also I'd imagine it'd be one huge target for any good adventuring party to take on.

[The Recreator]

Huh, I was just thinking about how neatly Tarquin would fit into the mold of a narcissistic parent.

I agree that Tarquin's actions are the result of a fear that he might not be the center of the plot, but more than that I think he simply can't comprehend that his story might not be the most important story. It isn't just that he's trying to assert his plot as the dominant plot - he believes there literally isn't any other.

The idea that Tarquin isn't the center of the narrative universe is unfathomable to him, and faced with the inconceivable he is beginning to act irrationally. Of particular note is his line in panel 12.


And when you are off brooding and healing for our inevitable final duel, I want you to remember one thing: That you forced me to do this. Just like Nale did.

Tarquin's at the end of his rope here. He thinks he's out of options. The idea of simply going home and vowing revenge on Elan for wrecking his narrative hasn't even occurred to him. The same thing happened when Tarquin confronted Nale - he had "no other choice" but to withdraw his love for Nale and pay him his just desserts. To me, these moments show Tarquin at his most deplorable: he is so self-centered that he can't even take responsibility for his own atrocities.

The only difference now is that Tarquin has lost control, in more ways than one. His true nature is laid bare for all to see.

I also find it interesting to look at the shape of the story as we approach the climax of Book 5. We've seen at least two points where the Order of the Stick could feasibly ride off into the sunset and bring us to the denouement, and each time that's happened, Tarquin has worm(hole)d his way back into the plot far earlier than a recurring villain would naturally return. This is a battle of narratives, and in trying to forcibly shape the story to his angle, Tarquin has set himself up as an enemy of the plot.

If the world is kind, if any of the narrative gods have a sense of justice, he won't last much longer.

[Trillium]

I don't think Malack's kingdom would hold for the same reason a unified empire would attract the business of other kingdoms.

Malack could maybe have kept up the facade, but it doesn't sound like that was his intention with statues, vampire society across all empires and in general Nergal all over the place.

Also I'd imagine it'd be one huge target for any good adventuring party to take on.

Lord Strahd begs to differ.



Bottom line: IF Tarquin is killed off by Roy, Haley or Julio, how will it affect Elan emotionally? And would Tarquin want to spend his last breath on trying to make Elan obsess over his death for the rest of his life? My answers are "probably badly after all" and "hell yeah!".

I think Elan would be sad and even bitter for a while, but he would still say "I can't blame you, you had no choice. It was either kill or be killed (and see all our friends die), so even though he was my father, he was a big meanie meany-head, and it is better if you live and he dies."
...which would be a such a torment for Tarquin, that the three fiends would go green with envy.

[The Recreator]

I think Elan would be sad and even bitter for a while, but he would still say "I can't blame you, you had no choice. It was either kill or be killed (and see all our friends die), so even though he was my father, he was a big meanie meany-head, and it is better if you live and he dies."
...which would be a such a torment for Tarquin, that the three fiends would go green with envy.

I feel like the absolutism of "no choice" is more in Tarquin's domain than Elan's. One of Elan's most consistent character traits is that he attempts to preserve life - even the lives of those who would kill him, perhaps especially the lives of those who would kill him. Even within the past couple dozen comics, Elan was the only person in the material plane who mourned Nale's passing. These are not the actions of a man who resigns himself to the idea that someone's death is justified.

That said, I think this could be where Elan finally takes a stand and defines himself as pro-choice. When it comes down to it, only we can control our actions. Elan choosing to assert responsibility for his dad's life (or death) would be a major character development, if only because of how cleanly it opposes Tarquin's willingness to pass the blame to others.

[Xzenu]

This is a battle of narratives, and in trying to forcibly shape the story to his angle, Tarquin has set himself up as an enemy of the plot.

Tarquin: "My narrative, oh my narrative, why hast thou forsaken me?"

:wink:


I don't think Malack's kingdom would hold...

Me neither, but Tarquin did. With Tarquin losing his future, I only mean his perception and hope of how it would be.

[BaronOfHell]

Me neither, but Tarquin did.

I'm not really sure Tarquin did either, what make you think he did?

My impression is that Tarquin was merely telling Malack what Malack wanted to hear, but I base that on my guess that Tarquin would not believe Malack's dream empire could exist for the same reasons his team can't unify their three kingdoms.

On some level I also suspect Tarquin wanted Nale to inherit his position and perhaps let Nale deal with Malack, but I'm not so sure about this after he took down Nale, though there's still the matter of the blood on the dagger and Nale's own words http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html (though it wasn't off screen).

[Lord Raziere]

Tarquin is a bigger egomaniac than Nale, and is an even worse at adapting to unexpected kinks in his plan than Nale.

News at eleven.

(but really, I thought all this was obvious)

[Nilan8888]

I think this analysis is pretty much spot-on. The only thing I would add is that Tarquin is still a pretty high-functioning narcissist (unlike, I guess, Nale). He's somehow at peace with his general self-image: Malack is able to rage at him and berate him over Nale, and Tarquin totally keeps his cool.

Since Malack is someone he respects, I'm not sure most narcissists would be able to keep their composure like that. They'd either rage right back or become sullen and/or surly and sink into passive-aggressive resentment. That it actually took this much to get the mask to start seriously slipping is something.

I'm not so sure your prediction will come true, though. I will give it to you: your prediction makes a good story. But for Elan to seriously resent Tarquin's killer for a very long period of time (and it would take a long period of time to establish it, then depict Elan overcoming it) would at this point be difficult to accomplish without readers getting annoyed with Elan, because he'd be backtracking: he's already come to terms with who his father really is, which was established in the illusion he snapped them all out of. He's acknowledged what a horrible guy Tarquin was. Sure, Elan is a good person and doesn't want Tarquin to die in the same way that he didn't want Nale to die, but to then resent his killer? He doesn't seem to resent his father for killing Nale, he's just sad. The person that killed Tarquin would have kill him needlessly and with their own sense of 'just deserts' for something like that to happen -- in other words, kill Tarquin in an evil or at least questionable way.

If that were to be the case, it couldn't be Julio: I don't think he's been in the story enough for it to mean a lot for Elan to be mad at him. Such a move is wasted on Belkar. And frankly, I don't think it's in Roy to kill Tarquin in the fashion it would take for Elan to resent him.

Vaarsuvius? The mage might have it in him/her, but I don't think it fits with his/her redemption arc.

Therefore, for your prediction to fit, I think there's only two possibilities:

1. Haley kills Tarquin mercilessly in the same way she dealt with Crystal. However I think this is unlikely since even Rich has backed off from how that was presented in-comic. However, I would still buy this as an added storyline for Haley.

2. DURKON kills Taqruin, much in the same way he killed Z'zdtri, and this then ties into the 'how has Durkon now changed in becoming undead' storyline. And therefore it's actually less about Elan forgiving his Dad's killer as wondering if he knows that person at all anymore.


However, these are just my feelings on what you lay out. I think it's totally possible for the OOTS to escape and for Tarquin to feel the need to chase after them, demanding his role in the story. Although your way works, I do think this would give the reader an opportunity to see something many are likely itching to see: Xykon laying a Vaarsuivius-style beatdown on Tarquin.

There's also something I feel instinctively that conflicts with the style of the strip and what you've laid out: nobody will lay it out to Tarquin's face what he really is. Tarquin still, even now, has not been verbally trounced. Rich uses this quite often and it's something I enjoy about his writing: where he drops the veil of fiction and says what he's trying to say, as close as he can.

Not all stories do this. In some very, very good stories it simply wouldn't work because you'd sense the hand of the author as it would break the verisimilitude ('Game of Thrones' or 'The Sopranos' wouldn't have that luxury since they rely more on their audiences to fill that gap [and some would say that these days, we've got enough of that already] -- 'The Wire' might try something like it, but disguise it far more than Rich needs to). But it fits the very moral theory-oriented storytelling of this strip very well.

<EDIT>
(Well, I suppose call 'moral-theory oriented storytelling' what you will, but whatever drove Rich to do things like lay out the IFCC's persuasion so precisely and to argue against their own case at times, or for RedCloak to be bothered to berate a Sapphire Guard Paladin who probably wouldn't listen to him -- I thoroughly enjoyed those comics for precisely those elements and the way they were done, but it's not the sort of thing you would see in all forms of fiction since it can take potentially take you out of the story)
</EDIT>

Tarquin's death may or may not be at hand, but I don't think he can die just yet, because he has not been called out yet. He has not been morally defeated. The way Miko was (several times). The way Tsukiko was. The way Vaarsuvius was. Truth to power has not been spoken.

Tarquin may die with the last word, but I don't think it's Rich's style to let his last word go unchallenged: which I think would happen if he were to die as the situation is at-present.

[Composer99]

I'm hoping for:

Roy coming back on deck, putting the beat down - verbally and physically - on Tarquin (perhaps after he has rolled a '1' on a "save or suck" spell from Vaarsuvius or one of the wands Haley has), and hurling him off the airship with Kirk's line in Star Trek III when he kicked Kruge off the cliff and into the river of magma (or something like it). In the theme of unconventional damage perhaps he cuts off Tarquin's arm first, conveniently the one with the ring of regeneration/fast healing.

I think it is consistent with the Order not letting Tarquin dictate the narrative "terms of engagement" and allows Roy the chance to put Tarquin in his (narrative) place.

You know what, I'll make that my prediction, even though it is contrary to my preference (that Tarquin survives, for now).

Edit: With reference to the OP, I should say that I do not think Tarquin has a death wish at this time. Narrative matters enough to him that being defeated by a true hero - and especially by his own son - is a desirable end, but just now I think he is confident of victory. He has gone without any serious challenge to his capabilities for so long that I do not think he can even begin to conceive that he can lose to Elan and his team.

[Heksefatter]

One minor quibble: Tarquin didn't regard Nale as his favourite son. In fact, it is pretty clear that Nale has been a disappointment for several years.

Otherwise, I think that this is a very good take on Tarkie.

[Shining Wrath]

I think Tarquin has a massive ego, no question about it.

I am not enough of a psychologist to say whether or not "narcissist" fits. Diagnosing real-world people from afar is typically regarded as not useful, even for trained psychologists, and how much less so when it's a comic strip character?

In story, though, Tarquin has demonstrated several traits:

That he's the center of the story, period
That he's the one who understands how the story should unfold better than anyone else
That he is entitled to do whatever he must to keep the story unfolding as it should. And now we begin to see how Tarquin differs from, say, Julio, who simply chooses not to engage if he sees the story going a direction he doesn't care for, and goes off to a different story
That the way the story unfolds must ultimately benefit Tarquin. This is where Tarquin really shows he is evil. He cannot distinguish between the needs of the "story", which is effectively his god, and his own. History both RW and fantasy is replete with tales of people who conflated their own self-interest with serving god or gods; these tales seldom end well for the person who so conflates, not to mention all the metaphorical disemboweled chickens serving as a warning to others


His ego combines with his evil to produce a monster. And given his rant about killing Haley and everyone else on the Mechane, there is no way this story arc ends without him being utterly defeated.

Which is not the same as killed, or "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind". The defeat he faces must be sufficient that it Tarquin "gets it" that he's not the center of the story (1) and does not understand it as well as Elan or Roy (2). This in turn means that he's not justified in doing whatever is necessary to make the story unfold as he thinks it should.

I can't see a good way to get there from here, but perhaps The Giant can. If not, and Tarquin is simply defeated in a conventional sense, it's going to be a whole-party effort, and Elan will be part of that effort right up until the end - because the one threat Tarquin could utter that will make Elan try to kill him has been uttered.

I am going to murder your lowlife girlfriend ...
No, Tarquin, you aren't. Elan and his friends are going to beat you like a rug on a clothesline.

[Deliverance]

I'll have to disagree with the OP on a few points.

While Tarquin displays all the hallmarks of the narcissitic parent when dealing with his children, in general he appears to be suffering from egotism rather than narcissism.

This has certain implications: Anything he survives he will be able to reinterpret as victory or at worst a temporary setback so long as he gets a small break to recover. Except when pushed far out of his comfort zone, he knows that he doesn't lose.

And while he has lost his best friend, one should not count on that influencing his feelings or actions more than losing his best shirt, his best tablecloth, or other treasured possession would.

As for Nale being the favoured heir, I don't understand what you are talking about. Nale had value to Tarquin 1) as an asset due to his abilities and connections, and 2) as a son, who fit poorly into the narrative that Tarquin was constructing for himself, but but might yet fall into the right place. When Tarquin finally realized that Nale would not fit, he eliminated him and put the issue behind him.

As such, I must disagree with you that Tarquin has lost everything. He has been temporarily pushed out of his comfort zone by a sequence of several events in a row not working out the way he preferred, but given even a short while to recover, he'll easily be back to normal after having reinterpreted the events in a way that leaves him in charge of the situation and convinced that he has learned from any mistakes he might have made.

Assuming my assumption about deep egotism on Tarquin's part is somewhat close to the Giant's idea of Tarquin (a dangerous assumption if ever there was one), at this point in time Tarquin doesn't have a death wish and doesn't feel that he has lost everything - he has been temporarily inconvenienced. His behaviour may seem extreme, but he is nowhere near the breaking point yet, nor anywhere near to considering himself to have failed, nor is he subconsciously seeking death. Because he is the amazing Tarquin who through his own skill have imposed order on the narrative world, and he doesn't lose, and he knows this in his bones. He needs to be pushed much further out of his comfort zone.

And while that could happen in the current story arc, and is bound to be spectacular if it does, I find it more likely that he'll be left behind alive as the OOTS makes for the last gate, with Tarquin surviving to return as a villain in a few books when the OOTS takes time to address the evil Fatherland problem. (Possibly post-Snarl).

[Shining Wrath]

I'll have to disagree with the OP on a few points.

While Tarquin displays all the hallmarks of the narcissitic parent when dealing with his children, in general he appears to be suffering from egotism rather than narcissism.

This has certain implications: Anything he survives he will be able to reinterpret as victory or at worst a temporary setback so long as he gets a small break to recover. Except when pushed far out of his comfort zone, he knows that he doesn't lose.

And while he has lost his best friend, one should not count on that influencing his feelings or actions more than losing his best shirt, his best tablecloth, or other treasured possession would.

As for Nale being the favoured heir, I don't understand what you are talking about. Nale had value to Tarquin 1) as an asset due to his abilities and connections, and 2) as a son, who fit poorly into the narrative that Tarquin was constructing for himself, but but might yet fall into the right place. When Tarquin finally realized that Nale would not fit, he eliminated him and put the issue behind him.

As such, I must disagree with you that Tarquin has lost everything. He has been temporarily pushed out of his comfort zone by a sequence of several events in a row not working out the way he preferred, but given even a short while to recover, he'll easily be back to normal after having reinterpreted the events in a way that leaves him in charge of the situation and convinced that he has learned from any mistakes he might have made.

Assuming my assumption about deep egotism on Tarquin's part is somewhat close to the Giant's idea of Tarquin (a dangerous assumption if ever there was one), at this point in time Tarquin doesn't have a death wish and doesn't feel that he has lost everything - he has been temporarily inconvenienced. His behaviour may seem extreme, but he is nowhere near the breaking point yet, nor anywhere near to considering himself to have failed, nor is he subconsciously seeking death. Because he is the amazing Tarquin who through his own skill have imposed order on the narrative world, and he doesn't lose, and he knows this in his bones. He needs to be pushed much further out of his comfort zone.

And while that could happen in the current story arc, and is bound to be spectacular if it does, I find it more likely that he'll be left behind alive as the OOTS makes for the last gate, with Tarquin surviving to return as a villain in a few books when the OOTS takes time to address the evil Fatherland problem. (Possibly post-Snarl).

I don't think a man actively trying to murder Haley can be left behind. Something is going to happen.

[Nilan8888]

Agreed. Narratively speaking, Tarquin must be dealt with before the Snarl. I've thought about this being a "scouring of the shire" scenario, but I don't think that works.

Tarquin MAY be left behind. But if he is, he will follow, trying to do the exact thing he's doing right now.

[Deliverance]

I don't think a man actively trying to murder Haley can be left behind. Something is going to happen.
Why not?

There's certainly no pattern in OOTS of named villains trying to kill Haley being killed or dealt with rather than left behind when she moves on, if anything, it is the opposite.

Crystal? Her rival, murdered in bath before leaving.
Sabine? Left behind.
Tsukiko? Left behind. Later dead at Redcloak's hands due to stupidity.
Bozzok? Left behind. Reached accomodation. (Though how well that holds up given Haley's murder of Crystal is a good question).
Hank, his rogue friend, and his friend from the fighter outreach program? Left behind. Reached accomodation.
Bandit Queen? Left behind. Later dead at Miko's hands due to stupidity.

I can easily see Tarquin's arc end here, though I find that less likely than it continuing, but if ends, it'll not be because the Giant isn't fine with leaving villains behind, that have actively attempted to kill Haley.

Consider instead the possibility that the OOTS make good their escape and, focusing on their mission, continue to the next gate while Tarquin remains alive. The benefits from this are substantial:

1) The Ian Starshine plot/Geezers on the Run remains relevant and doesn't require resolution anytime soon.

3) Laurin, Miron, Jacinda, and Shoulderpad guy can be left behind without requiring resolution anytime soon.

4) The OOTS can leave the Fatherland behind to focus on their mission with a clean conscience, knowing that while it is still ruled by tyranny, they are not throwing it into civil war before running.

5) It gives the Giant room to demonstrate just how much farther Tarquin has to go before breaking, running him as a background villain preparing his next move in the next book (the way Xykon & Co. were in this); I don't know if it is the Giant's goal to go that far in the story with Tarquin, but it would be a most interesting deconstruction if he did.

6) It gives Elan time to brood over his father; Something that both he and Tarquin think is necessary.

7) It allows Elan to grow as a person; Tarquin's actions have already helped Elan grow significantly. Elan grows every time he contrasts his own wishes and beliefs with Tarquin's and sees the similarities and the differences, but I'd wager there's more potential growth left.

[Shining Wrath]

Why not?

There's certainly no pattern in OOTS of named villains trying to kill Haley being killed or dealt with rather than left behind when she moves on, if anything, it is the opposite.

Crystal? Her rival, murdered in bath before leaving.
Sabine? Left behind.
Tsukiko? Left behind. Later dead at Redcloak's hands due to stupidity.
Bozzok? Left behind. Reached accomodation. (Though how well that holds up given Haley's murder of Crystal is a good question).
Hank, his rogue friend, and his friend from the fighter outreach program? Left behind. Reached accomodation.
Bandit Queen? Left behind. Later dead at Miko's hands due to stupidity.

I can easily see Tarquin's arc end here, though I find that less likely than it continuing, but if ends, it'll not be because the Giant isn't fine with leaving villains behind, that have actively attempted to kill Haley.

Consider instead the possibility that the OOTS make good their escape and, focusing on their mission, continue to the next gate while Tarquin remains alive. The benefits from this are substantial:

1) The Ian Starshine plot/Geezers on the Run remains relevant and doesn't require resolution anytime soon.

3) Laurin, Miron, Jacinda, and Shoulderpad guy can be left behind without requiring resolution anytime soon.

4) The OOTS can leave the Fatherland behind to focus on their mission with a clean conscience, knowing that while it is still ruled by tyranny, they are not throwing it into civil war before running.

5) It gives the Giant room to demonstrate just how much farther Tarquin has to go before breaking, running him as a background villain preparing his next move in the next book (the way Xykon & Co. were in this); I don't know if it is the Giant's goal to go that far in the story with Tarquin, but it would be a most interesting deconstruction if he did.

6) It gives Elan time to brood over his father; Something that both he and Tarquin think is necessary.

7) It allows Elan to grow as a person; Tarquin's actions have already helped Elan grow significantly. Elan grows every time he contrasts his own wishes and beliefs with Tarquin's and sees the similarities and the differences, but I'd wager there's more potential growth left.

It's not the trying to kill Haley that is key; it's the "My main goal in life now includes killing Haley" that's the key.

Crystal is the only one who approaches that level of threat to Haley - and, remember, I'm discussing Elan's motivations, not Rich Burlew's.

[eras10]

I have no idea what will happen, and Rich is good enough to make this "work" in many ways, but I agree that Tarquin's continued recurrence and re-escalation makes leaving him behind much harder. OOTS has consistently signaled that they don't have the resources to kill him, but now maybe they do. The only problem is that this is in some ways what he wants.


I think that to leave him behind now, it's neccessary to either

a) deprive him of the means to chase OOTS

b) provide him a motivation not to chase OOTS

c) allow him to chase OOTS and work this into later books (maybe getting waxed by Xykon, but he's said verbally he doesn't intend to risk that)

d) kill him. It's worth noting that one of the reasons killing him was futile before in OOTS' own words, was Malack. And Malack is gone. Resurrection-level clerics are rare. While his team might be able to raise him eventually, it might take even them a while to find one. And what if they don't want to? What if this episode convinces them that Tarquin has lost his mind and is no longer an asset?

EDIT: for the record, it would be fascinating to see the recurrence of some kind of accomodation between T and OOTS - OOTS somehow forcing him to temporarily admit that he lacks the means to control or beat them, and he accepts biding his time (maybe Elan promises to try and kill him later?)
DOUBLE EDIT: not that killing him off wouldn't also be immensely satisfying.

[Lamech]

I think this makes sense. He wants to play an important role. He wants the world to revolve around him. And quite frankly it doesn't. The smart thing to do would be to get the band back together and help Roy and co. stop Xykon. But then in all honesty he's going to be playing second fiddle to Roy, and and probably most of the casters.

So now he's trying to get the epic story of Elan to revolve around him, but Elan simply isn't having it. I don't think Elan even really understands the concept. He agreed to fight his father to protect Haley, but that doesn't give Tarquin what he wants. That's the equivalent of a thug robbing someone.

So we got this. Tarquin has been important for so long, able to get his way for so long, and now he can't. Everything is falling apart.

[Deliverance]

It's not the trying to kill Haley that is key; it's the "My main goal in life now includes killing Haley" that's the key.

Crystal is the only one who approaches that level of threat to Haley - and, remember, I'm discussing Elan's motivations, not Rich Burlew's.
Elan isn't the leader of the OOTS. Roy is. And the OOTS knows that Xykon is on his way to the next gate. The first goal is survival, then getting on with the quest to save the world. Resolving Elan's daddy-issues and other emotional conflicts? That can wait.

And even if Roy wasn't the leader, I guess I don't see any problem for Elan in terms of either motivations or story in leaving this scene with Tarquin left behind and fuming (and plotting to bring the narrative back on track while having to deal with his remaining friends, who don't have any good reason at that point to go along with anything he suggests that distracts him from what they are already doing) and with the whole Tarquin-issue unresolved until a later date - it will give him time to brood over protecting Haley from his father and on how to defeat his father.

I'm not insisting on Tarquin surviving this, it is just that I can see great stories both in the order escaping with Tarquin left behind and still a threat and in Tarquin eliminated as a threat now. On balance I expect the former, because the latter would leave the most untidy unfinished business when the story moved on (unless even more time was spent on resolving it before moving to the next gate, that is).

[Xzenu]

One minor quibble: Tarquin didn't regard Nale as his favourite son. In fact, it is pretty clear that Nale has been a disappointment for several years.

Yeah, and Elan is his only son... "Starting two minutes ago, try to keep up".

I mean, sure, we have seen Tarquin downplaying Nale and upplaying Elan ever since Elan entered the empire. But that's a very recent event. And as you indirectly point out, it is probably more with his disappointment in Nale than it is about the qualities of Elan.

With Nale finally getting away from his dad, Tarquin lost his long-term fatherhood project and one of the greatest stories of his life ending in a pathetic anticlimax. Killing Nale was such a Phyrric Victory.


I am not enough of a psychologist to say whether or not "narcissist" fits. Diagnosing real-world people from afar is typically regarded as not useful, even for trained psychologists, and how much less so when it's a comic strip character?

I agree with you about real life people, but not comic book characters. Fictional characters are simple enough creatures to stereotype like that. Trying to squeeze the complexity of a real person into one diagnosis or another, that is far more problematic.


While Tarquin displays all the hallmarks of the narcissitic parent when dealing with his children, in general he appears to be suffering from egotism rather than narcissism.

Everybody use concepts slightly differently. I guess you consider egotism and high-functioning narcissism to be different things? To me, it is synonymous or at least have a very big overlap.

Your description of egotist Tarquin is consistent with a high functioning narcissist Tarquin.

Refusing to accept defeat is part of the pattern. And you are right that Tarquin won't ADMIT to having lost everything. He won't even admit that a future of having Malack build statues to his honor is important to him. He will never admit that it is all about him, personally. He will keep insisting that it is all about the narrative and the world, which both just happens to revolve around him.

[ReaderAt2046]

Elan isn't the leader of the OOTS. Roy is. And the OOTS knows that Xykon is on his way to the next gate. The first goal is survival, then getting on with the quest to save the world. Resolving Elan's daddy-issues and other emotional conflicts? That can wait.

And even if Roy wasn't the leader, I guess I don't see any problem for Elan in terms of either motivations or story in leaving this scene with Tarquin left behind and fuming (and plotting to bring the narrative back on track while having to deal with his remaining friends, who don't have any good reason at that point to go along with anything he suggests that distracts him from what they are already doing) and with the whole Tarquin-issue unresolved until a later date - it will give him time to brood over protecting Haley from his father and on how to defeat his father.

I'm not insisting on Tarquin surviving this, it is just that I can see great stories both in the order escaping with Tarquin left behind and still a threat and in Tarquin eliminated as a threat now. On balance I expect the former, because the latter would leave the most untidy unfinished business when the story moved on (unless even more time was spent on resolving it before moving to the next gate, that is).

The only problem is that they can't leave Tarquin behind. As he has just demonstrated, he will absolutely never, ever, give up until everyone but Elan is dead. Even if they want to, the Order physically can't run away, because Tarquin won't let them.

[Mike Havran]

I don't think Tarquin ever cared about Malack's plans. As he sees it, The Grand Story of All Time starts with Tarquin's Birth and ends with Tarquin's Death. Everything else is irrelevant. Tarquin promised that to Malack because a content Malack is better than rejected Malack.

[Deliverance]

The only problem is that they can't leave Tarquin behind. As he has just demonstrated, he will absolutely never, ever, give up until everyone but Elan is dead. Even if they want to, the Order physically can't run away, because Tarquin won't let them.
"Tarquin won't let them"... Tarquin isn't omnipotent.

What you probably mean to say is that Tarquin will pursue them if they run away, which is something completely different from claiming that they physically cannot run away. Tarquin's ability to pursue them swiftly is at this point in time limited entirely by Laurin's good will, power points, and knowledge of where to go.

Given Laurin's earlier comments on Tarquin's current obsession, I'm wondering as to why, exactly, she'd agree to abandon Team Tarquin's current scheme in order to go haring off on a longer excursion rather than remaining behind to keep their scheme going, should the OOTS for whatever reason manage to escape presently. This is Tarquin's obsession and not one that she shares.

No, if the order manages to break with Tarquin now, there is no doubt that they'll meet up again sooner or later, but that's not an argument in favour of it being impossible for them to escape at this point in time with the overarching issue unresolved.

Heck, you could even call it consistent with the rest of the story: The OOTS has a history of leaving hostiles behind that will come back to haunt them later. See Dungeon of Durokan, Dragon Cave, Azure City. Why not add the Fatherland to the mix? :smallbiggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

The only problem is that they can't leave Tarquin behind. As he has just demonstrated, he will absolutely never, ever, give up until everyone but Elan is dead. Even if they want to, the Order physically can't run away, because Tarquin won't let them.

Indeed. To paraphrase Erfworld, the Order's goal up to this point hasn't been victory over Tarquin, it is to render Tarquin unable or unwilling to pursue them. This is beyond their remit at this stage, so they may be forced to seek victory after all.

[Mike Havran]

Heck, you could even call it consistent with the rest of the story: The OOTS has a history of leaving hostiles behind that will come back to haunt them later. See Dungeon of Durokan, Dragon Cave, Azure City. Why not add the Fatherland to the mix? :smallbiggrin:
Maybe they end up cutting his hand off and leaving him behind, brooding and healing for the inevitable final clash. :smallwink:

[Deliverance]

Perhaps premature, but I think not: I called it. They could leave Tarquin behind, no doubt to reappear in the future, and Tarquin hasn't lost everything: He's been temporarily inconvenienced.

Congratulations to the Giant for making a most spectacular use of one of the many outrageous D&D damage mechanics: falling damage and high level characters. Tarquin neither needed a Cleric's feather fall, nor did he break his bones. :smallbiggrin: