Why is Disciple of Dispater considered +2 tier?

[CyberThread]

Now I know the tier prc list is pretty subjective, but why is the Disciple of Dispater considered a +2 prc , am not seeing a build or thing that it specifically makes better in any extraordinary way.

[A_S]

Well, the PrC tiers are based on power compared to "expected entry," which as you say, is pretty subjective. Since DoD's only entry requirements are feats and BAB, it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider its expected entry something like Fighter 6, in which case the benefits it gets are a pretty huge power boost over just taking more fighter.

It gets:

Great crit-fishing abilities that stack with Improved Critical
Summons
Some rather nice gish SLA's
Miscellaneous minor combat boosts

That's pretty dang good compared to a few more Fighter bonus feats.

[Chronos]

Disciple of Dispater is the key ingredient in most builds that end up with a truly absurd crit chance, which can in turn end up meaning a truly absurd, or even infinite, number of attacks and damage. Even without going infinite, it can very easily triple or so the average damage output of a melee character.

[EugeneVoid]

Those Lightning maces, do.

[CyberThread]

Does Mighty wallop damage stack with crit, or just a flat bonus?

[herrhauptmann]

Mighty wallop changes weapon damage right? Then it multiplies on crits.

If it just adds bonus dice of damage, it shouldn't multiply unless it specifies it multiplies.

[CyberThread]

I had to look it up, it changes the weapons size, so it does stack .... :D :D :D


BAHWHWHWHAHAHW

[Brookshw]

Mighty wallop changes weapon damage right? Then it multiplies on crits.

If it just adds bonus dice of damage, it shouldn't multiply unless it specifies it multiplies.

Iirc it let's bludgeoning damage count as 4 times larger in size.

[Irk]

as many have said, DoD is a great class for any melee character due to SLAs, and provides the necessary component to any critfishing.

I mean, improved critical doubles it, DoD 8 triples it, and weapon master adds 2. So if you apply it right, you can get around 5-20. those are the only thins that stack, too.

[Amphetryon]

Note that Curmudgeon's reading of the RAW on DoD nerfs it considerably in most 3.5 games.

[Chronos]

Well, potentially weakens it, anyway. Just saying that the DM needs to make adjustments doesn't actually say what adjustments he needs to make.

And DoD and Weapon Master aren't actually the only stacking crit-expanders. The Arcane Duelist also gets a crit-expanding ability. That's a lot more inconvenient to qualify for, though.

[CyberThread]

Note that Curmudgeon's reading of the RAW on DoD nerfs it considerably in most 3.5 games.


good thing that curmudgeon isn't right on everything :P Folks like psyren disagree.

[herrhauptmann]

What does he say about it, specifically?

[CyberThread]

The 3.0 version stacked with improved crit feat, the 3.5 version does not stack with the updated feat, due to name change or rule change.

[TuggyNE]

The 3.0 version stacked with improved crit feat, the 3.5 version does not stack with the updated feat, due to name change or rule change.

Rule changes. Specifically, that the 3.0 version stacked with Improved Critical, just as every other crit-range-increasing effect in 3.0 did, and the 3.5 version therefore should not stack, any more than any other crit-range-increasing effect in 3.5 does.

For what it's worth, I agree with him on this.

[CyberThread]

Can you show any other 3.0 prc that specificity calls this out, as the Dispater prc does?

[Nettlekid]

Can you show any other 3.0 prc that specificity calls this out, as the Dispater prc does?

It's not quite the same, but it's similar to how in 3.0 all golems had Magic Immunity, which just blocked spells period, as opposed to the Magic Immunity that golems in 3.5 have which blocks all spells that allow SR. Since it's very much an "all of them have it" case, it stands to reason that 3.0 golems should have the 3.5 version of Magic Immunity.

[Dusk Eclipse]

In order to compromise I would houserule it to give a flat increase maybe +2, that way you can still get a better crit range than the guy who bought a fancy magic weapon, but not so ridiculous you can essentially auto-crit everything.

[Phelix-Mu]

I had an interesting idea a while back about using DoD as a chassis for an adaptation intended to allow a high crit rate archer. I love the mechanics in DoD, but the fluff is a little hard to swallow for most characters that I consider building. Good thing that stuff is so mutable.:smallsmile:

Normal crit-stacking isn't really super problematic, but Lightning Maces and similar cheese can really take it to the next level. Without ToB, it's really almost manageable to allow the stacking as it worked in 3.0 (although minotaur greathammer goes a long way to reestablishing dysfunction...as does kaorti resin and similar op for critting). I also like the theme of the class because it would be easy to strip out/substitute stuff for the obviously magical summoning and such, and leave it as a primarily mundane class for those devoted to chopping things into small pieces, of which there are surprisingly few.

[Fouredged Sword]

NOTE: kaorti resin won't work with this class. Your weapon must be metal.

[Necroticplague]

NOTE: kaorti resin won't work with this class. Your weapon must be metal.

Well, you can build part of it out of resin, and part of metal.

[Fouredged Sword]

3.5 does not support items made of mixed material. A weapon is considered ether material A or material B, regardless of the mixture of materials used to construct the object. An ax is a metal weapon despite the wooden handle. A quarterstaff is a wooden weapon despite the existence of metal support bands along the length.

[Chronos]

You could make a weapon out of kaorti resin and then give it the metalline special quality to make it count as (say) cold iron.

[Vortenger]

Chronos, that is a neat trick.

[herrhauptmann]

You could make a weapon out of kaorti resin and then give it the metalline special quality to make it count as (say) cold iron.

When you activate Metalline, it supersedes your standard properties. If your weapon is Metalline pandemonic silver, and you make it act like adamantine, it's no longer pandemonic silver; so you don't get your saves vs fear in a windstorm.

[Phelix-Mu]

Sorry, this just points out my ignorance of 3.5 crit op. Last time I even had a character with Improved Crit was...3.0 days. So no kaorti resin for the DoD. Moving onto trick #463.:smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

What you want is a pair of 18-20 aptitude light weapons and the blood in the water stance/lightning maces. Then you go a little crazy.

[gooddragon1]

Rule changes. Specifically, that the 3.0 version stacked with Improved Critical, just as every other crit-range-increasing effect in 3.0 did, and the 3.5 version therefore should not stack, any more than any other crit-range-increasing effect in 3.5 does.

For what it's worth, I agree with him on this.

That's common sense not RAW and as your signature says they're not on speaking terms.

[CyberThread]

Yay raw wooohoo

[Phelix-Mu]

Yay raw wooohoo

Just pictured RAW as some drunk frat boy out riding with his friends in a car, standing up through the sunroof with a red plastic cup in his hand.

I think the game actually makes more sense now.

[Amphetryon]

That's common sense not RAW and as your signature says they're not on speaking terms.

I'd argue it's (a fairly pedantic, restrictive reading of) RAW, rather than 'common sense.'

[CyberThread]

Is it to much to allow it

[JaronK]

That's common sense not RAW and as your signature says they're not on speaking terms.

Actually, RAW is that you're supposed to update al 3.0 material to 3.5 rules. So it is RAW that you do things like that. By the same logic, 3.0 classes that gave huge bonuses to skills (such as the Ninja Spy) should have their skill bonuses likewise reduced.

With that said I don't think the class is all that powerful, as it requires getting up close and full attacking to do anything.

JaronK

[Phelix-Mu]

Is it to much to allow it

One would be well-advised to not allow Lightning Maces DoD into any game that desires a quick-paced combat style. But that's more a thing with Lightning Maces than DoD. Crazy huge damage from melee attacks is probably not going to outpace wizard op anytime soon, or really get anywhere close to Tier 1. So, all in all, just a nifty way to bring lower tiers up a few pegs, and keep them competitive in combat with high Tiers that are aiming to kill/deal damage (ahahaha).

But, this all depends on the tenor/power level of the campaign. Also, this PrC may be too much to throw at the party, unless there are high tiers in the party. A BBEG DoD with some kind of free movement trick could be unreasonably devastating to any party that can't shut him/her down with BFCs or debuffs or the like.

[CyberThread]

Hmm how can you get around crit immunity

[gooddragon1]

Actually, RAW is that you're supposed to update al 3.0 material to 3.5 rules. So it is RAW that you do things like that. By the same logic, 3.0 classes that gave huge bonuses to skills (such as the Ninja Spy) should have their skill bonuses likewise reduced.

With that said I don't think the class is all that powerful, as it requires getting up close and full attacking to do anything.

JaronK

While it does say to update... it doesn't say how. Common sense would dictate that you convert it over to that way but conversion in itself unless specifically covered can go in either direction. There are even many examples of it being that way but it's still possibly ambiguous. There would have to be an actual conversion for each thing specifically for that to not be common sense. If you want to allow it you're either going to have to take it as is or use common sense for a conversion. Is this stance stupid and inflexible? Of course, but that's what RAW is. I took 1 level in rules lawyer for the ability to use that stance as an immediate rather than a swift action.

Also, hold RAW's beverage and watch as he breaks common sense to temporarily become a psionic sandwich.

[CyberThread]

Arnt there crystals that get around the immunized

[herrhauptmann]

Arnt there crystals that get around the immunized

Constructs and the undead.
I don't think there's one for plants, oozes, fortification. There is a spell: vinestrike though.

[CyberThread]

Doesn't fortification only make you resistant not actually immune? So a player could still trigger lighting maces, if was attacking another player/creature with fortification 100%

[Vizzerdrix]

I mean, improved critical doubles it, DoD 8 triples it, and weapon master adds 2. So if you apply it right, you can get around 5-20. those are the only thins that stack, too.

I don't understand how this works. if your light mace only crits on a 20 and you double it (19-20), then triple it (15-20) then add 2 (13-20) how are you getting 5-20? Is it the order you apply the crit bonuses? :smallconfused:

[AMFV]

I don't understand how this works. if your light mace only crits on a 20 and you double it (19-20), then triple it (15-20) then add 2 (13-20) how are you getting 5-20? Is it the order you apply the crit bonuses? :smallconfused:

You'd have to start with a different weapon to make that work, sadly.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161065

The trick is outlined there, I think it uses Lightning maces, or Aptitude Kukris as the source of it's critting range.

[Fouredged Sword]

You star with Kukris, (18-20), add 2 (16-20), then triple it (5-20), then apply aptitude to make them count as light maces for the lightning maces feat.

Then there is a paladin spell that auto confirms crits for a while. Get the party evil archivist to cast that on you.

[Killer Angel]

Disciple of Dispater is the key ingredient in most builds that end up with a truly absurd crit chance, which can in turn end up meaning a truly absurd, or even infinite, number of attacks and damage. Even without going infinite, it can very easily triple or so the average damage output of a melee character.

To merely improve the damage output, while very useful for a meleer, shouldn't advance you in the tier list.

I tend to see it as a mere +1 prc, considering that there are also other goodies that come with the class.

[Vizzerdrix]

So the order of application matters? Then what about this:

Sticking with light maces.
Add the +2 (20-18) then apply Imp. Crit (20-15) then triple it (20-2)

Beat sticks are confusing. I'm sticking with archers and casters. :smallfrown:

[hymer]

To merely improve the damage output, while very useful for a meleer, shouldn't advance you in the tier list.

I tend to see it as a mere +1 prc, considering that there are also other goodies that come with the class.

I'd argue that for tier 5 melee, it is a really good PrCl, and merits the +2. The battle enhancements are notable, both offensively and defensively. And the doubling of skill points, a much better skill list (and some trap finding), the ability to summon erinyeses (how do you plural that?) and rust metal do all add to the versatility as well. It may not be a 'real' tier 3 after that, but that is not quite what the PrC tier list is about, as far as I understand.


The goal is merely to make it clear that an "up two" is better than an "up one", and that both are only in reference to the starting point as given by the "logical entry". To repeat: the ranking is not literal. It's just a guideline to help novice or intermediate players know where to start looking.

[Chronos]

The Weapon Master's +2 to crit range explicitly states that it's calculated after all multipliers, so Disciple of Dispater (triple) plus Weapon Master (+2) on a kukri would only be a 10-20 range. Toss in Improved Critical (increase triple to x4), and it'd be 7-20. I don't think any more than that is possible, pre-epic in official sources.

[CyberThread]

So What Fighter 2/TOB Class/Disp 8/TOB?