What's the most amount of LA you'd consider worth taking?

[Corinath]

Context: Gestalt Campaign. Everything is legal. Including Buyoff.

I've got an Artificer/Psychic Assassin centric build, very heavy stealth, and definitely am taking "Dark" (+1 LA), but am also considering "Shadow" (+2 LA) given it has five really appealing Special Abilities for my build (Fast Healing 2, +2 Luck to Saves, Evasion (which I won't actually have in the build), Plane Shift (Emergencies), DR 5/Magic). Fast Healing means I may Over Channel more often than not.

Some parts of it seem to blend nicely. I pretty much have an Ex/Su blend of HiPS right off the bat. Move Silently gets +12. Cold Resistance may or mat not stack, I'm not sure. Same with Base Land speed (Moving me from 30 to (30+10)*1.5, or (30*1.5)+10), which I always like, personally.

The question is more general because I'll be helping a friend of mine build their character this week (Caster type), and just want to know if anyone regrets stacking on 3 or more LA to a character. Even with Buyoff.

Would you consider +3 LA ridiculous, in general? Or in context?

[Coidzor]

Hoo... Is it on both sides of the gestalt or only one?

[Totema]

If buyoff is allowed, I might be convinced to try up to a LA+2 race. And if they're really liberal with it, shoot, I might go for something more. Why not? But if it's not allowed at all... I really couldn't see myself taking on any kind of LA. There's usually too much to lose by accepting and keeping that LA.

I'm not sure I can help out much for this particular situation (I'm not much familiar with the gestalt system) but there are always builds where having LA (and later buying it off of course) is outweighed by the extra racial goodies you get.

[Emperor Tippy]

If it's only one side then all the way up to +20 LA/HD, if it's both sides them only as much as I can fully buy off by the expected level range.

[icefractal]

Depends on the character. The most I would take (in non-Gestalt) is probably Ghost, at +5. That would be for a Rogue or similar though, not a caster, and only if starting at high-enough level.

For one side of a Gestalt, then potentially no limit, if it's good enough.

[Corinath]

Buyoff being on both sides or not was never really discussed, but I tend to err on the side of breaking the game with optimizing (I want to be able to do crazy things in case my team mates can't find a solution. I hate the idea of a total party wipe. So does my DM), and my DM probably isn't familiar with LA buy off, so I'm making it affect both sides instead of just one.

I figure it's only fair that if I make a powerful build (and don't screw up in the process), that I have to pay out a penalty worthwhile towards the build.

That being said, Buyoff is totally allowed. Otherwise I probably wouldn't be taking templates.

[TuggyNE]

Pixie's LA +4 is often worth considering, and it's not impossible to buy off some of it in campaigns with that variant.

[Waker]

It depends on the answer to two questions: Is buyoff allowed and is one or both sides being occupied by the LA?
Assuming the LA is limited to one side I could see me taking as high as a LA +5.
If the LA is on both sides and Buyoff is allowed, I could take as high as +3.
If on both sides and no Buyoff, +2 at the most.

[Corinath]

If it's only one side then all the way up to +20 LA/HD, if it's both sides them only as much as I can fully buy off by the expected level range.

The last campaign this DM ran lasted a year and a half, with Star Wars D20, and we ran all the way from level 1 to level 20. It was a heck of a lot of fun.

@IceFractal

I don't know Ghost. Gonna google that now.

@Tuggy

I'm thinking about Pixie also, except I'm Evil. So, uh, yeah. I think they have to be good iirc.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Only get more than a +2 if you can gain it gradually and buy it off gradually. You would ideally start with a +1, gain three levels, buy it off, take another +1 acquired template or a savage progression level, gain three more levels, then buy that one off, etc. I wouldn't start with more than a +2 if buying it off, and you really don't need Shadow Creature at all. There's a Ring of Evasion, there are plenty of means of escape that don't involve the unreliability and adventure delay of a 1/day Plane Shift, and you can use power combinations to avoid damage in general so Fast Healing isn't even that great.

For a Psychic Assassin, you can use the Share Pain + Psicrystal trick to significantly reduce any damage you take, and use Vigor to get an hp cushion so you don't even take any actual damage. Don't forget your Psicrystal's Hardness applies to Share Pain, and it can be kept in a compartment on your person so opponents can't attack it directly and it won't even get hit by area effects due to line of sight/effect. Use Midnight Augmentation + Bestow Power to recharge your powerpoints after buffing and between encounters.

[Werephilosopher]

Usually +4 is as high as I'd go. But in a gestalt game, I'd definitely consider much higher numbers.

[Emperor Tippy]

If it applies to both sides (effectively doubling the LA) then, at best, +2 LA. +1 more likely.

LA taking both sides is gestalt makes it all virtually totally worthless as LA in general is quite conservative (tending to, for most things, be too high to be worth it) and you have just effectively doubled all LA.

[Envyus]

+7 with Rakashasa and being a sorcerer. (Due to houserule were LA is the only thing that count for ECL for my groups.) Because of this being one has no flaws what so ever.

[OldTrees1]

I have taken Lich (+4) with no regrets in a non gestalt campaign.
In gestalt I think LA hits both sides, under that assumption I would probably limit myself to +4 LA or less. However very few things are worth +1LA in my book.

[lunar2]

+7 with Rakashasa and being a sorcerer. (Due to houserule were LA is the only thing that count for ECL for my groups.) Because of this being one has no flaws what so ever.

wait, so you get all the stuff the race gets, but you only have to deal with the LA? be an ak'chazar rakshasa (MM3). it's only LA +5, but it's way more powerful than a standard rakshasa. or be a black ethergaunt (fiend folio). +5 LA, 17th level wizard casting.

[Corinath]

If it applies to both sides (effectively doubling the LA) then, at best, +2 LA. +1 more likely.

LA taking both sides is gestalt makes it all virtually totally worthless as LA in general is quite conservative (tending to, for most things, be too high to be worth it) and you have just effectively doubled all LA.

This is interesting to me.

Cause in looking at Gestalt, my initial impression was that it didn't double the power a character had. More likely, by some significant, but smaller, fraction. Like 1.5, or 1.75. So when I thought about it it was hard to justify taking 2 LA for one level. It felt like I'd get a free ECL out of the combination, and one that the game didn't even call out anywhere in RAW.

But this implies that I'm now erring on the opposite side by making them worthless.

I wonder if there's a way to bridge that gap? (Walking into dangerous house rule territory)

[Emperor Tippy]

This is interesting to me.

Cause in looking at Gestalt, my initial impression was that it didn't double the power a character had. More likely, by some significant, but smaller, fraction. Like 1.5, or 1.75. So when I thought about it it was hard to justify taking 2 LA for one level. It felt like I'd get a free ECL out of the combination, and one that the game didn't even call out anywhere in RAW.

But this implies that I'm now erring on the opposite side by making them worthless.

I wonder if there's a way to bridge that gap? (Walking into dangerous house rule territory)
Gestalt is pretty much anywhere from a 10% power increase (or even smaller with some really bad combinations) to about a 300% power increase.

Factotum 11/ Fighter 8/ Monk 1// Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 4/ Mind Bender 1 is far more than twice as powerful as a straight Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 4/ Mind Bender 1.

Factotum has amped your Initiative by 12 to 13 points, provided a similar boost to a ton of skills, ups your attack roll on any spells you cast by the same amount, lets you totally ignore SR, and most importantly basically gives you all of the free quicken that you could ever want thanks to Cunning Surge,

Fighter 8 gets you 5 more feats to blow on either Metamagic or Font of Inspiration. Monk 1 (with KFG) nets you another feat and amps your AC by 12-13 points.

Or Factotum 11/ Swashbuckler 3/ Decisive Strike Martial Monk 1/ Exemplar 1/ Mindbender 1/ Ardent 1/ Swordsage 2// Psion 20. That is more than twice as powerful as either side of the gestalt (and is incidentally a very playable gestalt build that can contribute in all areas).

If you are only getting a 30-50% power increase out of a gestalt build then its generally an indication that you either aren't trying to optimize or are building pretty badly.

[OldTrees1]

I wonder if there's a way to bridge that gap? (Walking into dangerous house rule territory)

Gestalt barely increases character power.* Having LA count for both sides will have almost the same effect in Gestalt as LA has in normal builds. A few things that were barely worth the LA would stop being worth the LA. However for the most part, anything worth the LA is worth it by a safe margin.

For those few things that cease to be worth their LA, decrease the total LA by 1 per 2 of those things included (round the total LA down).

*At normal optimization levels. High OP to Tippy levels of OP would be different.

[Legendxp]

Please don't hate me for asking this but what is buyoff? I REALLY want to know the rulings for this.

[Envyus]

wait, so you get all the stuff the race gets, but you only have to deal with the LA? be an ak'chazar rakshasa (MM3). it's only LA +5, but it's way more powerful than a standard rakshasa. or be a black ethergaunt (fiend folio). +5 LA, 17th level wizard casting.

Well we don't want to totally kill the game. We generally stick with +2 LA at most if we feel like playing something with LA.

Added on we never played the Rakshasa we just noted that we could have a really good character by our rules. The highest LA we ever had in the game was +4

[Zanos]

Please don't hate me for asking this but what is buyoff? I REALLY want to know the rulings for this.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

[Corinath]

Gestalt is pretty much anywhere from a 10% power increase (or even smaller with some really bad combinations) to about a 300% power increase.

Factotum 11/ Fighter 8/ Monk 1// Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 4/ Mind Bender 1 is far more than twice as powerful as a straight Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 4/ Mind Bender 1.

Factotum has amped your Initiative by 12 to 13 points, provided a similar boost to a ton of skills, ups your attack roll on any spells you cast by the same amount, lets you totally ignore SR, and most importantly basically gives you all of the free quicken that you could ever want thanks to Cunning Surge,

Fighter 8 gets you 5 more feats to blow on either Metamagic or Font of Inspiration. Monk 1 (with KFG) nets you another feat and amps your AC by 12-13 points.

Or Factotum 11/ Swashbuckler 3/ Decisive Strike Martial Monk 1/ Exemplar 1/ Mindbender 1/ Ardent 1/ Swordsage 2// Psion 20. That is more than twice as powerful as either side of the gestalt (and is incidentally a very playable gestalt build that can contribute in all areas).

If you are only getting a 30-50% power increase out of a gestalt build then its generally an indication that you either aren't trying to optimize or are building pretty badly.

I admit to both of these things probably being the case. :D

Though that's actually a big part of why I included Artificer. For the ability to, if needed, abuse the Assassin aspect of the build in conjunction with all the buffs an artificer has, plus polymorph for Kelvzu (spelling?), adding another 8d6 Sneak Attack to everything that I do. If I combine that with Telekenetic Throw and Sniper's Eye, that's (Manifester Level)*(8d6+whatever Sneak Attack levels I have already). And that's assuming the Death Attack doesn't kill it (if I get lucky and stuff).

At level 15 (or earlier if Over Channeled) it's something like 15*14d6. Averaging 630 damage spread out over 15 attacks (So DR would take a big chunk out of it) as a standard(iirc?) action.

So, on the low end, if nothing exciting is happening, I sneak around and cause chaos because I love comedy and my DM is generally a pretty funny guy. If, suddenly, that's not the case, and my team hits a wall, I can amp up. (But would hesitate to unless left to nothing else.)

And that Midnight Augment + Bestow Power thing seems like it breaks Power Points at first glance. Could totally have it wrong. LoL.

[Emperor Tippy]

Gestalt barely increases character power.*
Even at lower op levels that really isn't true. You kinda have to actively try to screw yourself over into a barely existent power increase in gestalt.

I mean straight Fighter 20// Wizard 20 is a fairly significant power increase. Especially with Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos (11 sexy sexy metamagic feats are grand).

Or take pretty much any melee build and then throw Psion, Ardent, or Wilder (depending upon what your best mental ability score is) on the other side. Even with Wilder (the weakest of those options) and a good melee build you have probably doubled your power even if you pretty much play the same as you did before (i.e. don't switch to being a primary caster, just use the powers as self buffs and the like).

Or just dumping Monk 19/ Exemplar 1 onto the other side of any caster build and spend the feat to move the monk AC boost to your relevant stat. You just upped your power by probably around seventy to eighty percent. All good saves, 90 ft. movement speed, skill point increases, SR, +3 to every mental ability score (when you go Venerable after level 17), Evasion/Improved Evasion, AC boost. Your survivability and skill use just got a significant boost with now downsides. And this is a fairly weak option.

Or Fighter//Rogue, its more than twice as good as either of its parts as the two classes synergize to fill in many of the gaps and weaknesses in both classes. Especially if you throw on Assassin 9/ Exemplar 1 on the Rogue half.

[TuggyNE]

I'm thinking about Pixie also, except I'm Evil. So, uh, yeah. I think they have to be good iirc.

Close; the "always" marker (I'd thought they were Usually, but eh) means that the vast majority will be that alignment, but a few percent or so will be some other alignment. An Evil pixie would be truly exceptional, but could exist, and with considerably greater frequency than the canonical LG and LN Succubi.

It might not be worth it to come up with the backstory to justify that, though.


And that Midnight Augment + Bestow Power thing seems like it breaks Power Points at first glance. Could totally have it wrong. LoL.

It does, almost entirely; PP with any of the various recharge tricks is a number that's just there to limit how much you can get done in a single encounter, and one or two tricks can be done in the press of combat as a full-round action or less, which removes even that constraint. But this is Tippy here.

[Emperor Tippy]

It does, almost entirely; PP with any of the various recharge tricks is a number that's just there to limit how much you can get done in a single encounter, and one or two tricks can be done in the press of combat as a full-round action or less, which removes even that constraint. But this is Tippy here.

Hey, I rarely recommend that people do the really broken stuff that you can do. Infinite PP recharge out of combat, no problem. Infinite PP recharge every round in combat, a problem and something that Tippy does not recommend.

I also don't generally recommend any of the infinite action tricks, any of the infinite spell tricks, any of the infinite damage tricks, or most of TO. When I do use or recommend TO it is almost always to do something that is really pretty stupid.

[Legendxp]

Thanks for getting back to me so fast, I appreciate it. The rule seems kinda neat. As for the OP, I'd take no more than LA +2, or +4 if you take the LA -2 race (or was it template?) from dragon magazine.

[OldTrees1]

Even at lower op levels that really isn't true. You kinda have to actively try to screw yourself over into a barely existent power increase in gestalt.

I mean straight Fighter 20// Wizard 20 is a fairly significant power increase. Especially with Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos (11 sexy sexy metamagic feats are grand).

Yeah, adding those Fighter levels really strengthened the Wizard character by 50% or more
Dark Chaos Shuffle is High OP. I did mention that my comment did not apply to High OP.

[Corinath]

So, let's go with a hypothetical situation where each LA affected one side of the tree.

Let's say (not sold on doing anything yet) I wanted to do something crazy, and I took Pixie (+4), Shadow (+2), Dark (+1). That's a total of +7 (again, hypothetical)

How would you handle that? Would each +1 LA Buyoff actually buyoff +2 LA? What about that random odd numbered LA? Would you buy off "half" a level later on to account for it?

[OldTrees1]

IF LA affected only one side, then LA buyoff would alternate left and right removing 1 LA per buyoff. In its place you would level in a class. (every 2 buyoffs would complete the gestalt level)

[Corinath]

Alternate left and right?

You lost me there. In my mind the best I can do is see going from Artificer2Rogue2 with LA (X) to Artificer2Rogue2 with LA (X-2). What do you mean by alternate?

[OldTrees1]

Alternate left and right?

You lost me there. In my mind the best I can do is see going from Artificer2Rogue2 with LA (X) to Artificer2Rogue2 with LA (X-2). What do you mean by alternate?

Say you had +7 LA as an ECL 6 Artificer//Rogue because your DM allowed you to split your LA so it was put on both sides (for some crazy reason)

LA +4 Rogue 2 // LA +3 Artificer 3
Buyoff 1
LA +3 Rogue 3 // LA +3 Artificer 3
Take 3 more levels to get RAW permission to do another LA buyoff
LA +3 Rogue 6 // LA +3 Artificer 6
Buyoff 2
LA +3 Rogue 6 // LA +2 Artificer 7
Take 3 more levels to get RAW permission to do another LA buyoff
LA +3 Rogue 9 // LA +2 Artificer 10
Buyoff 3
LA +2 Rogue 10 // LA +2 Artificer 10

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, adding those Fighter levels really strengthened the Wizard character by 50% or more
At lower OP levels? Yeah, it does. Your BAB just doubled, your HP just jumped by 150%, your Fort save just jumped up to match your will save, and you just went from feat starved to satiated.

Oh yeah, and you just doubled or more your daily endurance. And lets not forget the little things like being able to do Contingent Wraitstrike+Quickened Teleport (or other teleport type spells that aren't DD) + Full Attack, end your turn, Greater Celerity + Full Attack.

For 3 expend spell slots you just dumped two full attacks onto your enemy, which means if you built a remotely decent fighter half, that you just dropped 500+ damage into your enemy.

A fighter's biggest weakness is being able to get himself within range of his enemy, a wizards biggest weakness (if he isn't built specifically to do it) is dumping a ton of damage into his enemy. Combined you use the Wizard half to get you within range and then dump out massive damage.


Dark Chaos Shuffle is High OP. I did mention that my comment did not apply to High OP.
No, Chaos Shuffling isn't high op. At best its moderate op. And at the optimization levels that it isn't a valid option at the Fighter boosts are still a similar power jump.

[Emperor Tippy]

Say you had +7 LA as an ECL 6 Artificer//Rogue because your DM allowed you to split your LA so it was put on both sides (for some crazy reason)

LA +4 Rogue 2 // LA +3 Artificer 3
Buyoff 1
LA +3 Rogue 3 // LA +3 Artificer 3
Take 3 more levels to get RAW permission to do another LA buyoff
LA +3 Rogue 6 // LA +3 Artificer 6
Buyoff 2
LA +3 Rogue 6 // LA +2 Artificer 7
Take 3 more levels to get RAW permission to do another LA buyoff
LA +3 Rogue 9 // LA +2 Artificer 10
Buyoff 3
LA +2 Rogue 10 // LA +2 Artificer 10
Except that isn't how LA on both sides works. You add full LA to each side.

The idea that you split it in half and then spread it over both sides is made up whole cloth without any rules support.

The two rules supported ways to handle LA in gestalt is to either dump it on one side or to dump its full cost on both sides. The idea of splitting it is not the norm or rules supported.

[Corinath]

Except that isn't how LA on both sides works. You add full LA to each side.

The idea that you split it in half and then spread it over both sides is made up whole cloth without any rules support.

The two rules supported ways to handle LA in gestalt is to either dump it on one side or to dump its full cost on both sides. The idea of splitting it is not the norm or rules supported.

Full cost on both sides is simple enough. But how would it work dumping it on one side? For some reason I can't visualize this thing.

Edit: To clarify. I mean, suppose I chose a ridiculous LA like that. How do I handle the character before I can even buy something off? How do I handle the buy off when I hit level 3, and, technically, have no rogue levels? When I do the buy off, does it halt both sides of the experience line, despite the LA being on only one side?

Artificer 8 / LA +(X) Rogue 1 becomes Artificer 8 / LA+(X-1) Rogue 2? Or does Artificer continue to progress?

[NotScaryBats]

Gravetouched Ghoul is an awesome +2 LA template.

Cleric 5 // Fighter 2 / Barbarian 1 / GTG LA 2
That would be a fifth level gestalt character with LA on only one side. Easier to visualize?

[OldTrees1]

Except that isn't how LA on both sides works. You add full LA to each side.

The idea that you split it in half and then spread it over both sides is made up whole cloth without any rules support.

The two rules supported ways to handle LA in gestalt is to either dump it on one side or to dump its full cost on both sides. The idea of splitting it is not the norm or rules supported.

Then I misunderstood your suggestion. It sounded like you thought it was ok to put Pixie LA on one side and Dark & Shadow LA on the other side. Since I do not see rules support for the one side RAW interpretation (probably my fault), I did not see a difference between you suggesting one houserule vs another.

[Pyromancer999]

Thanks for getting back to me so fast, I appreciate it. The rule seems kinda neat. As for the OP, I'd take no more than LA +2, or +4 if you take the LA -2 race (or was it template?) from dragon magazine.

What is this race/template you're talking about?

[Corinath]

Incarnate Construct (SS 120) LA –2 (minimum 0) – Any construct creature with a generally humanoid form – two arms, two legs, one head TC: Humanoid if medium-size or smaller, or Giant if it is Large or larger

Pulled from The Master Template Thread. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1117261)


Gravetouched Ghoul is an awesome +2 LA template.

Cleric 5 // Fighter 2 / Barbarian 1 / GTG LA 2
That would be a fifth level gestalt character with LA on only one side. Easier to visualize?

Eeeee Gravetouched doesn't work for my build. Looks cool though.

Difficulty. What happens when your Cleric reaches level 3? You'd be at, let's say Cleric 3 // Fighter 1 GTG LA 2, with an opportunity to buy off. You make the buy off. Does it become Cleric 3 // Fighter 2 / GTG LA 1?


Then I misunderstood your suggestion. It sounded like you thought it was ok to put Pixie LA on one side and Dark & Shadow LA on the other side. Since I do not see rules support for the one side RAW interpretation (probably my fault), I did not see a difference between you suggesting one houserule vs another.

On this note, is there RAW for Gestalt LA Buyoff at all? Where would it be?

[Emperor Tippy]

Full cost on both sides is simple enough. But how would it work dumping it on one side? For some reason I can't visualize this thing.

LA+5/Fighter 15//Wizard 20

The first five levels are, in regards to HD, Skill Points, Saves, etc. as if you were just a regular non gestalt, non LA wizard. If the LA comes with HD then you treat those HD as normal gestalt levels (take the better of the HP, skill points, saves, etc.).

LA buyoff is where it gets somewhat hazy. Rules wise its clear cut, you reduce your XP by the stated amount at the time and then recalculate your level based on that. So say after the LA buy off you have enough XP to be level 10, well then you are an X 10// Y 10.

The thing is that that can result in some fairly weird things.

[Zanos]

What is this race/template you're talking about?
Assuming Incarnate Construct(Savage Species, pg. 120.)

People like to argue about how the -2LA works in combination with other stuff.

[Corinath]

LA+5/Fighter 15//Wizard 20
LA buyoff is where it gets somewhat hazy. Rules wise its clear cut, you reduce your XP by the stated amount at the time and then recalculate your level based on that. So say after the LA buy off you have enough XP to be level 10, well then you are an X 10// Y 10.

The thing is that that can result in some fairly weird things.

In what way?

[Pyromancer999]

Assuming Incarnate Construct(Savage Species, pg. 120.)

People like to argue about how the -2LA works in combination with other stuff.

Ah, okay. Though it might be something different, seeing as it was being said to be from Dragon.

Overall, though the -2 LA doesn't necessarily reduce LA to 0, just makes it lower. So it would depend on what it's being applied to, and how much LA is acceptable.

[Emperor Tippy]

In what way?

LA 1/ Fighter 1// Wizard 2 reaches level 3, buys off his LA, and becomes a Fighter 2//Wizard 2. You gained a fighter level while doing the buyoff.

[Corinath]

LA 1/ Fighter 1// Wizard 2 reaches level 3, buys off his LA, and becomes a Fighter 2//Wizard 2. You gained a fighter level while doing the buyoff.

Yes! Ok. This was one of the other things that wasn't processing while I was trying to figure this out. This is making more sense to me now. Thanks. :)

[Optimator]

I'd say if I knew the campaign would go to level 19+ the 3 LA is worth it with buy-off. Your classes won't be hindered so much by the delay.

I dig LA buy-off a lot. I've bought off Half-Dragon in a campaign that went (or rather, is going) levels 16-19+ and I consider it worth it thus far.

[TuggyNE]

LA 1/ Fighter 1// Wizard 2 reaches level 3, buys off his LA, and becomes a Fighter 2//Wizard 2. You gained a fighter level while doing the buyoff.

You always gain a class level during buyoff anyway, gestalt or no gestalt, so I don't see the difference.

[OldTrees1]

You always gain a class level during buyoff anyway, gestalt or no gestalt, so I don't see the difference.

Normally you just lose an LA.

Dark Dwarf Rogue 3 (ECL 4, 6000xp)
LA Buyoff: Cost 3000xp
Dark Dwarf Rogue 3 (ECL 3, 3000xp)

[Cespenar]

VoP Monk 20//Half-Celestial/Half-Gold-Dragon/Dire Werelion then.

This is a good idea.

[TuggyNE]

Normally you just lose an LA.

Dark Dwarf Rogue 3 (ECL 4, 6000xp)
LA Buyoff: Cost 3000xp
Dark Dwarf Rogue 3 (ECL 3, 3000xp)

Not exactly.

Dark Dwarf Rogue 2/LA 1 reaches 6000 XP and chooses to buy off their LA. Now they are a Dark Dwarf Rogue 3. Leveling up and buyoff are not separable, since you can only buy off LA during the level-up process.

[bekeleven]

Not exactly.

Dark Dwarf Rogue 2/LA 1 reaches 6000 XP and chooses to buy off their LA. Now they are a Dark Dwarf Rogue 3. Leveling up and buyoff are not separable, since you can only buy off LA during the level-up process.

Yes, but the issue is that if you try to combine buyoff with 1-sided gestalt, you end up in a quantum state where you either rubberband class levels or end up different ECLs on each side.

[OldTrees1]

Not exactly.

Dark Dwarf Rogue 2/LA 1 reaches 6000 XP and chooses to buy off their LA. Now they are a Dark Dwarf Rogue 3. Leveling up and buyoff are not separable, since you can only buy off LA during the level-up process.

Not exactly.

Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

You have to level up first. Only then are you eligible for LA Buyoff.
Other than that we are vehemently agreeing.

[Gnaeus]

Then I misunderstood your suggestion. It sounded like you thought it was ok to put Pixie LA on one side and Dark & Shadow LA on the other side. Since I do not see rules support for the one side RAW interpretation (probably my fault), I did not see a difference between you suggesting one houserule vs another.

There isn't any rules support for Gestalt with LA at all. He isn't suggesting a houserule, any more than you are. You are both proposing interpretations on how a completely unaddressed rules area is supposed to work.

In a gestalt game where LA is on both sides, my maximum LA would be +0. Anything LA that would be worth it (unless it could be bought off before game) would be an extreme corner case. In most cases, Assuming LA is on one side only, Gestalt makes otherwise useless LA usable.

[Corinath]

The above discussion was actually one of the reasons I immediately thought that you could apply an LA to both sides at the same time.

As in, with my guy being a Pixie (LA+4) character…

Artificer 2 / LA +2 // Rogue 2 / LA +2; ECL Gestalt 4
becomes
Artificer 2 / LA +1 // Rogue 2 / LA +1; ECL Gestalt 3

It overpowers the template in the beginning, I feel. But there's no level rubber-banding, my DM sure won't kill us in the first month anyway, and part of me still feels that Gestalt EXP is weighted differently anyway (We ARE talking about taking two classes for the same "X" EXP)

It's a cleaner progression. And if we're talking about Optimization, I'm sure splitting LA +4 across both trees is less optimized than being able to pick up four levels of a chaos shuffled fighter, or two levels of a chaos shuffled fighter and two levels of an Invisible Way Martial Monk w/ Weapon Specialist and KungFu Genius (via another Chaos Shuffle).

One nets me two feats, Int (my core stat) to AC, 1 in 4 round Invisibility, and Weapon Specialist. The other nets me a Pixie class for a Rogue very quick, which really only means I can sneak around without fear until enemies start getting anti-invisibiltiy utilities. Plus the stats, and flight.

[Icewraith]

At lower OP levels? Yeah, it does. Your BAB just doubled, your HP just jumped by 150%, your Fort save just jumped up to match your will save, and you just went from feat starved to satiated.

Oh yeah, and you just doubled or more your daily endurance. And lets not forget the little things like being able to do Contingent Wraitstrike+Quickened Teleport (or other teleport type spells that aren't DD) + Full Attack, end your turn, Greater Celerity + Full Attack.

For 3 expend spell slots you just dumped two full attacks onto your enemy, which means if you built a remotely decent fighter half, that you just dropped 500+ damage into your enemy.

A fighter's biggest weakness is being able to get himself within range of his enemy, a wizards biggest weakness (if he isn't built specifically to do it) is dumping a ton of damage into his enemy. Combined you use the Wizard half to get you within range and then dump out massive damage.


No, Chaos Shuffling isn't high op. At best its moderate op. And at the optimization levels that it isn't a valid option at the Fighter boosts are still a similar power jump.

Most things Tippy considers "mid-op" are "high op" at most other tables in my experience, things he considers "high op" are "omgwtfbbq op" in the same fashion. It's still interesting and nice to know where all the tricks are.

Note that even if you don't chaos shuffle fighter feats, there are a bunch that are handy to have as a wizard.

Snag yourself improved initative,

feats up to improved precise shot to negate cover/firing into melee issue with ray spells,

dodge and mobility (mobility armor won't work in an antimagic field and you want that for the next bit), combat expertise (prereq and can be useful),

elusive target tactical feat (benefit 1: negate the power attack damage bonus of your dodge target, incredibly useful against things like gestalted cleric 2-hand power attacking giants packing antimagic fields or raging pouncing barbarians with pierce magical concealment),

martial study (wall of blades is an immediate action and you can parry ranged touch attacks with it, for you non-abrupt jaunt conjurer types), martial stance (although if TOB is allowed you should strongly consider just taking Warblade instead of Fighter, even better HD and int to reflex saves),

combat reflexes, karmic strike/robilar's (combine with mirror image or other miss chance effects to strongly discourage things from trying to melee you), the feat that lets you take a 5-foot step instead of an AoO (even more useful with the 10-foot step from Sparing Dummy of the Master)...

improved unarmed strike, deflect arrows (if your dm read the fireball thread and likes archers)...

These are all mostly defensive tricks (preserving your actions for spellcasting), if you want to go offensive there's always gish tricks like power attack + haste + arcane strike + wraithstrike (use a wand, they're cheap!) + 2h weapon full attacks.

anyways...

With gestalt when people take about taking the LA on one "side" it ends up looking like this:

wizard 4//template 3 (for +3 LA)/other class 1

By the normal understanding of the rules having a LA would make gestalt even worse for characters, since you'd be

LA +3 wizard 1/other class 1 at ECL 4.

edit: I just ran face-first into one of those "your group didn't read the rules quite right ten years ago and you've technically been houseruling it the whole time" things. Someone may have responded to the post in the time it took me to edit it.

double edit: Of course they did.

[OldTrees1]

I have my players buy off LA in gestalt after they attain the level necessary for buyoff and gain enough additional XP such that buying off LA will not drop them down a level (the buyoff is 1000 xp less than the xp required to attain the next level iirc).

Since their ECL decreases when their LA decreases, they have enough xp for the buy off immediately after leveling up.

ECL 4 (3HD, +1LA) = 6000xp
Buyoff costs 3000xp
ECL 3 (3HD) = 3000xp

[bekeleven]

Since their ECL decreases when their LA decreases, they have enough xp for the buy off immediately after leveling up.

ECL 4 (3HD, +1LA) = 6000xp
Buyoff costs 3000xp
ECL 3 (3HD) = 3000xp


The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL -1) × 1,000. This amount is immediately deducted from the character's XP total. The deduction should reduce the character's effective character level (ECL) by 1.

The problem is that buying off LA means you spend some of your XP to reduce your ECL. Normally XP is spend increasing your ECL.

So by spending XP, you go from a Wizard 4 // Fighter 3 to a Wizard 4 //Fighter 3. Pop quiz, your ECL is still 4 if wizard levels have anything to say about it. Buying off LA doesn't make sense in one-track gestalt.

Hence, you have two choices: Either your tracks get desynched (well, I have ECL 3 on my fighter side, so it levels 1000 XP before my wizard side!) Or you just decide to keep them leveling together (in which case you either spent XP for nothing because your fighter still levels with your wizard, or you just effectively sped up your wizard leveling by taking LA on your fighter side).

Some people in this thread seem to be suggesting that you can take a free fighter level when your buy off level adjustment. If that's the case, then buying off LA is free, since 1000(ECL-1) is how much it costs to level in the first place.

Then there are other problems. If you come up with some homebrew solution that ends up matching your wizard and fighter levels, do you get the first-level skill and HP bump of your fighter side? If you're buying off the first of +3 LA at level 9, it can cause some of your base saves to drop if you use common-sense approaches. Etc...

TLDR: If you buy off 1-track LA, you have created a rules black hole. Tread carefully.

[prufock]

Not really familiar with gestalt. I know the basic rules, but have never played one.

That said, LA limit for me depends on the character. For a martial character, I could see going as high as +4. You still get all your iterative attacks by 20 that way. There are other ways you can get more attacks, and often the stat bumps are worth it for martial types. Really this is the highest I could see going.

For full casters: I'd stop at 1 for wizards (and other "odd-level" spell level progressions), delaying the spell progression to the same as sorcerers. For sorcerers (and other "even-level" spell level progressions) I would stop at 2, just barely getting 9ths. Both of these assume I'm not losing any significant class features, though.

Others would have to be on a case-by-case basis. Rogues can easily sacrifice at least 1 level, since 20 is dead. Of course you'd prestige out before that, so it's a bit of a wash. Dark or Shadow (or both) are decent on a rogue.

Monk... hm, might consider a +18 LA on that one.

[Corinath]

+18 LA monk. LoL.

Now I want to build this and see what happens. Just because.

@Bekeleven

Right, this is the conundrum. And in-so-far as I can figure out, there's got to be a math way to home-brew this that doesn't cop people out of LA one way or another. So, let's look at Gestalt, which has no RAW with LA (or someone may have mentioned it by now).

In a Gestalt campaign, a character is so exceptional with EXP that they take an additional class. Ergo, the basis of EXP in a Gestalt game is different. An ECL Gestalt 4 is different than a "non-Gestalt" ECL 4, by virtue of having a set of class bonuses for the same amount of experience.

Level Adjustment is meant to accommodate a power discrepancy a template can create when applied to a character or enemy, thus increasing it's relative difficulty level in terms of it's ECL. Right? Following so far?

So the easy way to adapt for "Gestalt EXP" is to say that if it's an even-numbered LA, it's split across both templates. While other characters gain two class levels, you work off two class levels, in the same way that in a "Non Gestalt EXP" game, when you other characters gain a single class level, you work off a single class level.

So what about odd-numbered LA then?

What if you apply the remainder to one side of the template. When that side of the template comes up, pay a fraction of the cost associated (or the full cost if we're being brutal). Ergo Gestalt LA+1 EXP buy off = ((ECL-1)*1000*(.5/.75/1 or whatever))

There's no RAW, I just want to figure something out here that makes sense. Applying LA +1 to both sides of the template makes them all totally unappealing. Applying it to one side seems to have flaws. So breaking it down into it's components seems to work, relative to your party members' abilities.

Right?

Can anyone poke holes in this, other than saying it isn't RAW? Does it seem mis-aligned?

[bekeleven]

My thought was always:

Take LA on both sides. Sucks, but you can buy it off. Good for higher-level campaigns.

Or, take it on one side. Sucks that you can't buy it off, but it's the best kind of LA: The kind that still comes with class levels.

Your solution works all right. I just don't think Gestalt is a game mode that needs power boosts.

[Icewraith]

No, what should happen is as soon as you hit the XP for the next level, you immediately spend the XP and decrease your LA by 1.

All you do is replace one level adjustment with one class of your choice on one side of the gestalt, without increasing your total ECL.

Single class:

wiz 5/la3, ecl 8 attains 9th level xp
immediately spend xp, putting your total under the amount required for 9th
become wiz 6/la 2, ecl 8

gestalt:
wiz 8//otherclass 5 /la 3, ecl 8 attains 9th level xp
immediately spend xp, dropping you back under 9th level xp
become wiz 8//otherclass 6/la 2, ecl 8

[Corinath]

My thought was always:

Take LA on both sides. Sucks, but you can buy it off. Good for higher-level campaigns.

Or, take it on one side. Sucks that you can't buy it off, but it's the best kind of LA: The kind that still comes with class levels.

Your solution works all right. I just don't think Gestalt is a game mode that needs power boosts.

I could build Pun-Pun. Or break Action Economy. Or Spell economy. And that's in a regular, non-Gestalt game, as an extreme example. This is absolutely no-where near that. (Unless someone builds a Gestalt LA hybrid that, well, is.)

I'm not totally sure how I see that system as providing an unfair and inherent boost, particularly if I take the full EXP hit on the odd numbered LA (if there is one). If anything, in that instance, I'm weaker per total party EXP than the rest of the group, which took two levels while I took one.

If someone wants to break the game, they don't need Gestalt to do it. Which is why it feels odd to think that splitting LA in this manner is somehow breaking the game unfairly?

Or I could have just read into "Boost" incorrectly. LoL.

@Icewraith

As with above, while everyone else gained two class levels, in your instance Wizard literally did nothing for that entire level, meaning everyone in your party gained two levels to blend, while you gained one (via the buy off). It means LA has to be so much more incredibly worth it to begin with, as holding up both sides of a tree for +1 LA should be for a template that is absolutely outstanding. But holding up both sides of the tree every single time, multiple times, for +2? +3? +4?

I think that method would make LA worthless for a Gestalt game in terms of optimization, or even fairness (not flavor).

[bekeleven]

So your argument is that the game has infinite has infinite power loops, so why bother trying to balance anything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy#Perfect_solution_fallacy)?

[Icewraith]

I could build Pun-Pun. Or break Action Economy. Or Spell economy. And that's in a regular, non-Gestalt game, as an extreme example. This is absolutely no-where near that. (Unless someone builds a Gestalt LA hybrid that, well, is.)

I'm not totally sure how I see that system as providing an unfair and inherent boost, particularly if I take the full EXP hit on the odd numbered LA (if there is one). If anything, in that instance, I'm weaker per total party EXP than the rest of the group, which took two levels while I took one.

If someone wants to break the game, they don't need Gestalt to do it. Which is why it feels odd to think that splitting LA in this manner is somehow breaking the game unfairly?

Or I could have just read into "Boost" incorrectly. LoL.

@Icewraith

As with above, while everyone else gained two class levels, in your instance Wizard literally did nothing for that entire level, meaning everyone in your party gained two levels to blend, while you gained one (via the buy off). It means LA has to be so much more incredibly worth it to begin with, as holding up both sides of a tree for +1 LA should be for a template that is absolutely outstanding. But holding up both sides of the tree every single time, multiple times, for +2? +3? +4?

I think that method would make LA worthless for a Gestalt game in terms of optimization, or even fairness (not flavor).

My prior post, as far as I can tell, fulfills the LA buyoff rules for a character that takes the LA on one side of the gestalt progression.

That the character temporarily falls behind compared to the rest of the party is of little consequence, since XP is a river. It's of especially little consequence compared to the considerable drawbacks a character with LA faces in a non-gestalt campaign. I started houseruling that level adjustment grants 1+con hp, bad base attack and save progression for each level. It makes playing a single-classed character with a higher level adjustment a bit more tolerable.

While yes, the other players do get to advance two class levels, you still advance one (although your ECL does not increase), and immediately start getting bonus xp per encounter until you catch up with the party. The bonus xp rate is significant, to the point that you can actually end up jumping ahead of the rest of your party under the right conditions (you are mostly caught up but on the wrong side of the level the party just hit and the DM throws a big encounter).

[Zweisteine]

I didn't actually read the thread; I just skipped to post, so I could say one thing:

Paragonparagonparagonparagon!

Of course, if you're lower level, you can't do this, unless your DM says you can get the bonuses incrementally.

I can't tell if it's a horrible idea or if it's great.

[Corinath]

So your argument is that the game has infinite has infinite power loops, so why bother trying to balance anything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy#Perfect_solution_fallacy)?

LoL. This is far from the Fallacy you linked. If that was actually my stance, I wouldn't even have started this thread. :)

The point of what I said was that splitting LA off in the manner described is not a "boost", as the ceiling on exploitable game rules is so insanely high above it that it's hardly relative. It was a semantical discourse over the word boost.

(This is just observation)

In Non-Gestalt;
If LA +1 = ECL 1
And a Class Level = ECL 1
Then LA +1 = A Class Level
In Gestalt TWO Class Levels = ECL 1
By Extension of above logic, whereby LA +1 = A Class Level;
In Gestalt, LA +2 = ECL 1

It doesn't provide any more of an imbalance than the very nature of Gestalt does, which was the whole discourse regarding taking LA +4 vs Chaos Shuffled Martial Monk 2 / Fighter 2. Ergo, I didn't see a "boost"

But, again, it was purely semantical. I apologize for that. :)

@Icewraith

Thanks for that. The Bonus EXP thing is something that I'm not used to. That house rule is interesting too. :)

[Ansem]

LA+2 is the max I would take (buyoff at lvl 6 and 9). Otherwise it has to be something extremely good to be worth it and I wouldn't be playing anything thats fully class dependant (Casters etc)