Low Dex two weapon fighting?

[Yogibear41]

Is it possible to make a two-weapon fighter while having a low(ish) dex? Working on a type of sorcerer based gish that I want to dual wield scimitars with is there any good way to do it? The build would heavily favor charisma so anything that has a synergy with that would be great.

[Flickerdart]

A 2-level Ranger dip gives you TWF even if you don't qualify. You can also take Agile Shield Fighter and TWF with a shield and weapon.

Remember that you need a free hand to cast spells with somatic components.

[Cog]

Dragon Compendium offers the Diopsid race, who among other benefits can ignore the Dex requirements of any feat with 'Two Weapon' in the name. LA +1, but worth it in a build that leverages it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well you can sorta do it with Factotum 8.

You just fluff your Cunning Surge multiple attacks as two weapon fighting (and you can keep a weapon in each hand and alternate strikes).

You might want to look at replacing Sorcerer with Psion. It has a lot of the same feel but synergizes a lot better and is generally more fun, in my experience, than the Sorcerer. It also lets you do Midnight Augmentation + Bestow Power to regain your PP outside of combat so that you don't have to worry about running low on spells.

[Andezzar]

The only way I know to forgo the minimum DEX requirement is to get TWF from the ranger combat style.

Snowflake Wardance synergizes well with CHA, slashing weapons and TWF, but requires bardic music. So maybe Bard/sublime chord instead of sorcerer.

Don't forget that you only have to fulfill the DEX requirement for TWF on level up and when you use it. So a natural DEX 13 and a +6 DEX item would allow you to take and use all TWF feats, unless you go epic and want to take Perfect Two Weapon Fighting.

[eggynack]

Well, if the primary goal here is to get TWF without the prerequisite dexterity, gloves of the balanced hand (MIC, 105) have you covered. Whether you have no dexterity, and want to get TWF, or 15, and want ITWF, gloves have you covered. As for things that would make a sorcerer good at TWF, I'm not as sure on that count, though you might want to give the scimitars the skillful property (CArc, 144), to give you an average BAB and the proficiency you need.

[Yogibear41]

Remember that you need a free hand to cast spells with somatic components.

Yeah, that would be a problem might just see if I can roll with a single scimitar instead, although I'm not sure if I could manage anything with it that I couldn't do better with a morning star and greater mighty wallop.

[SowZ]

You should wear the slippers of battledancing.

[Crake]

A 2-level Ranger dip gives you TWF even if you don't qualify. You can also take Agile Shield Fighter and TWF with a shield and weapon.

Remember that you need a free hand to cast spells with somatic components.

Somatic weaponry can cover that issue, and shielded casting (if you choose to use a shield) can make casting defensively a thing of the past.

[Andezzar]

Unless you are dead set on scimitars, think about either two kukris or at least a scimitar and a kukri, since you somehow acquired Martial Weapon Proficiency anyways. for a mere -1 on the average damage you get +2 to hit, or save a feat if you thought about taking oversized twf.

[Fouredged Sword]

Gloves of the balanced hand are your friend. In theory, one could use MIC rules to stack two of them into a single pair of gloves to get improved TWFing without even using feats.

[Spiryt]

There's also CW Samurai, isn't it?

Hehe.

[Ruethgar]

Martial Monk ignores prerequisites, a one level dip for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting is always good. Though a two level dip and actually going in order with TWF and Improved TWF would still be of great benefit.

If you can take third party, there is also the Temple Swordsman background for a monk, they lose all weapon proficiency they would have ever gained but can pick one weapon to be proficient with and use monk abilities with. There are feats that do similar for the monk, but those consume resources as opposed to just altering the class. Of course there are Dragon monk variants that add swords as monk weapons, but none of them add a scimitar that I know of.

It wouldn't work for scimitars, but City Brawler barbarians get the TWF line as bonus feats for use with unarmed strikes.

[Khatoblepas]

Martial Monk ignores prerequisites, a one level dip for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting is always good. Though a two level dip and actually going in order with TWF and Improved TWF would still be of great benefit.

Perfect Two Weapon Fighting isn't a fighter bonus feat. But TWF and ITWF is legit. And Ascetic Mage could give you Cha-to-AC as well. It's surprisingly fitting, though it does hurt your casting a lot.

A martial chaos monk/bard/Sublime Chord build might be just what you need. Add in Snowflake Wardance and the Slippers of Battledancing, and you'll be surprisingly effective without losing all that much in the way of spellcasting.

(Also dipping monk allows you to grab the Sparring Dummy of the Master, which in turn allows you to do a 10' step to activate the Slippers of Battledancing, which will up your Cha-synergy even more)

(Also choosing Bard allows you to cast Nixie's Grace, which can give you a +8 enchancement bonus to your Charisma!)

[Fax Celestis]

Don't forget that you only take penalties for fighting with two weapons when you gain extra attacks from using the two-weapon fighting special attack.

If you don't gain extra attacks and just alternate your weapons with your strikes, you're fine.



If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:


If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

[Andezzar]

this is true, but why would you alternate the hands? you would have to pay twice for the weapons but would not get any extra attack.

[Fax Celestis]

The only reason I can think of for wanting to do TWF without high Dex or a source of bonus damage would be for "flavor reasons", which are divorced from effectiveness in most people's eyes. As that is what I believe is going on here, objective effectiveness takes a back seat to subjective awesomeness: I'm only providing a means for that subjective awesomeness to not be as objectively ineffective.

[Darrin]

Is it possible to make a two-weapon fighter while having a low(ish) dex? Working on a type of sorcerer based gish that I want to dual wield scimitars with is there any good way to do it? The build would heavily favor charisma so anything that has a synergy with that would be great.

The basic Sorcadin chassis sorta works:

Ranger 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Getting enough ranks in Knowledge (the Planes) or Knowledge (Religion) could be tricky, but I think Spellsword gets those as class skills at some point.

You might be better off with a Sublime Chord gish, though:

Ranger 2/Bard 7/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8

This gives you a little more flexibility with feats, and you can throw Snowflake Wardance in there if you like (although I don't recommend it).

As far as getting a hand free for spellcasting... I'd recommend a two-handed weapon, greatsword or elvencraft bow/quarterstaff works nicely, but if you're dead set on TWFing with dual scimitars, Somatic Weaponry (Complete Mage) or EWP: Double Scimitar will work, but both will cost a feat. Ideally, you want a Glove of the Master Strategist (3600 GP, Ghostwalk) to swap out a scimitar as a free action, but that may interfere with Gloves of the Balanced Hand, unless the DM allows you to stack both item effects into one. There are other items/feats that might help there: multiple Least Crystals of Return (free Quickdraw for 300 GP), Dragon Tail/Prehensile Tail, maybe a Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)/unseen servant to pick up your dropped weapons and hand them back to you?

[infomatic]

Somebody said CW Samurai as a joke, but it works OK for this. (This is the only thing it works OK for.)

Take two levels and grab Gloves of the Balanced Hand for equivalent ITWF (with Katana/Wakazashi, but easily houseruled to scimitars). Pump Strength and Cha, wear best armor you can and pick up some sort of bonus damage. (Bard Song, Arcane Strike, Sneak Attack fighter, Incarnum, whatever).

I've pasted some old handbook stuff I wrote for the CW Sam (pretty outdated, but there's some OK stuff for sorcerers.)

Regarding Somatics spells — as compensation for going CW Samurai and getting lots of abuse from your partymates, maybe the DM will let you swap EWP/Two Swords as One for the equivalent abilities with the Double Scimitar.

Sam2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/RauthmanthariBattlemage4/EldritchKnight4
BAB 16, CL 17 (not enough for 9th level but you specified Sorcerer). If you're looking for more CHA tricks you could sub out those EK levels for something else — I'm out of optimization practice. Dumping some Battlemage levels for Sacred Exorcist (Battlemage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413c) is keyed to Bastard Sword, so going scimitars makes it less desireable) could also give some extra sources of damage.


Sam2/Pal2/BardX/SublimeChord, with Devoted Performer, could also work.




Four tricks that can make your Samurai better (DM Willing, of course):

Basically, the Samurai needs all the help it can get, because it’s very difficult to get any synergy out of the class. Of the following, only No. 1 qualifies as a true house rule; Nos. 2 and 3 are merely 3.0 carryovers that haven’t been updated and so should be legit by 3.5 rules. No. 4 is more of a exploitation of existing rules. But some D.M.s may have problems, so it’s best to ask for all of them.

1. Alternate Daisho. There’s little flavor reason not to allow, for example, a Dwarven Samurai to replace Katana/Wakazashi with Twin Battleaxes (for Clangeddin) or Waraxe/Warhammer, or WarAxe/Hand Axe. (You’d waste the EWP, but you might be able to replace that feat with something like Weapon Focus, or a limited TWF Versatility that works only with Daisho weapons, or something). But all of these can be mechanically superior to a traditional daisho.
a. Twin Battleaxes would allow you to go with Oversized TWF/Power Attack.
b. WarAxe/Warhammer opens up the Anvil of Thunder Feat, which gives you new options.
c. WarAxe/HandAxe qualifies you for Shielded Axe (Races of Stone) which is superior to Improved Buckler Defense. You’d still need a Fighter level to get shield Proficiency, though.
2. Allow heavy weapons from 3.0 Forgotten Realms rules. These used weapon-size rules that were changed in 3.5, but it seems that a Golden Wakazashi would be treated as a one-handed weapon, making it eligible for Power Attack. You’d still need EWP (and maybe OTWF) for this. Thanks to Khazra Reborn for this idea.
3. Use the Oriental Adventures rules for Dwarves (Samurai becomes a favored class as well as fighter) and Wakazashi (deals slashing, not piercing damage). The latter is especially valuable because it lets you take Flay Foe (Champions of Ruin) to gain extra damage with both your weapons.
4. Use your Katana two-handed while you’re attacking with it. I haven’t seen any rule that says you have to alternate your attacks between primary hand and off-hand weapons, and you’ve got Quick Draw. So make all your attacks with your Katana as a two-handed weapon first, then quick-draw your Wakazashi and finish your routine with that weapon. This won’t exempt you from TWF penalties, of course, but it gets you the 1.5 Strength damage with your katana (and remember, your strength is probably higher than your average two-weapon fighter). Note: Since quick draw doesn’t equal quick-sheath, expect to get only 1 use out of this per combat (unless you are a Samurai/Soulknife or pack several Wakazashis.)



Races/Stats:

Strength & Charisma are key Samurai stats, so in general pick races that help with this. Races that give bonuses to Dexterity are generally not as desireable, as you won’t need it for TWF and can’t use a high Dex to full effect in full armor.

Azurin: Probably the best race for Samurai if you’re using Magic of Incarnum – the Essentia pool and bonus feat really help.

Dwarves: By OA rules, Samurai is a favored class. No, they didn’t mean this Samurai, but I’m not the one who puts out different classes with the same name, so don’t yell at me. Use Dream or Gold Dwarf (-2 Dex, instead of Charisma)


Multiclassing:

Multiclassing with the Samurai is practically a requirement, because you need some form of bonus damage to make TWF work properly. But because the Samurai’s TWF skills progress so slowly, it’s tricky to pull off.

• Bard: While in theory beneficial for bonus damage through Inspire Courage, the alignment issue is thorny. It can still work, however, through a combination of Paladin and Devoted Performer. Complementary saves. Works best with Eberron, which allows you to swap a song (Inspire Competence, for example) for a feat like Song of the Heart, which improves damage.

• Cleric: A useful dip for the Turn Undead ability, which can power Divine Might and give you some Charisma synergy. Pick domains that give abilities that aren’t tied to your cleric level, such as War and Fate.


• Paladin — Can be very nice if you’re using the Half-Orc Substitution levels, which give morale bonus to damage and an Intimidate-enhancing quality. Even a 2 level dip gets you Cha to Saves.

• Rogue: An obvious source of TWF bonus damage, but Evasion doesn’t work in Heavy Armor.

• Sorceror — Useful in some Gish-type builds, though a TWF style will have some problems with Somatic spells.

• Wilder — Charisma to Touch AC, and has a handful of augmentable powers that can help a good bit. But you have to choose between ITWF (at Samurai11) and either Schism or Metamorphosis (at Wilder10), which kind of stinks. Gets shield proficiency.


Prestige Classes:

Arcane Duelist: Charisma to AC in armor. Nice. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a

Raumanthari Battlemage: If you’re going to be using Arcane Strike to boost damage, it’s worth looking at since you’ve got the EWP (Bastard Sword) already. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413c

Suel Arcanamach: Charisma-based casting in armor, with some nice benefits. Could be a good use of Arcane-Strike boosted damage, though it’d be a lot better if this PrC would work with Raumanthari Battlemage. It doesn’t, because it lacks evocation spells.


Feats:
Craven (champions of ruin): This feat, plus the +1d6 sneak attack it requires, yields the equivalent of nearly +7d6 effective sneak attacks over 20 levels.


Flay Foe (champions of ruin): +1d6 damage for each hit after the first with a slashing weapon.

[eggynack]

Why would you use a samurai for this purpose over a ranger? I don't quite see the point, if you're only looking for free TWF.

Edit: Also, samurai are bad at TWF. Have you looked at their progression/lack of precision damage? The only things they're better at are intimidation, and acting as a strictly better warrior for arguments regarding the dividing line between tiers five and six.

[Benthesquid]

The only reason I can think of for wanting to do TWF without high Dex or a source of bonus damage would be for "flavor reasons", which are divorced from effectiveness in most people's eyes. As that is what I believe is going on here, objective effectiveness takes a back seat to subjective awesomeness: I'm only providing a means for that subjective awesomeness to not be as objectively ineffective.

Offhand, there's also the possibility that they want to do two types of damage in one round (IE, be able to attack the Troll with fire, and the Fire Elemental with Cold without having to switch weapons).

[infomatic]

I'm quite aware of the Samurai's shortcomings. I have stared at them a long, long time. (And for that matter, they're not great at intimidation compared with Zhentarim Fighters and other fear-based types.)

But for a specific archetype — somebody who wants TWF and low-dexterity and will be going to a PRC within a few levels anyway — they're OK. Optimal? No. But the OP is going for TWF with a low-dexterity build. He's looking for flavor more than optimization.

And if you're dumping Dex, Samurai2 is better than Ranger2 for that purpose, because you'll be able to wear better armor (Ranger combat style requires light armor). And you'll have more points to put into strength, boosting damage that way. As for bonus damage — of course you'll need it. But there are ways of getting it.


Why would you use a samurai for this purpose over a ranger? I don't quite see the point, if you're only looking for free TWF.

Edit: Also, samurai are bad at TWF. Have you looked at their progression/lack of precision damage? The only things they're better at are intimidation, and acting as a strictly better warrior for arguments regarding the dividing line between tiers five and six.