[3.5] Sublime Chord - Clearing up some details

[Cyperphobe]

So I've recently been trying to help my friend build a bard, and I remembered seeing the sublime chord class awhile back and how broken it was. After digging it up and reading the description of how you determine caster level, I'm left more confused than anything else.

Emphasis mine:
A Sublime Chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose which to class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord caster level.

So I read this as a very good type of deal for the SC. The big perk is that it basically makes your caster level in all casting classes equal to your sublime chord casting level, as well as giving access to the Sorc/Wiz casting list.
The SC casting level is in turn is picked by selecting a casting class when you take your first level and adding it's level to your current SC level.

The other nice thing that level 2 of SC gives you is the Song of Arcane Power, which lets you take a move action, make a perform check, and depending on the results get a CL bonus to your next spell. At this level, getting 20 on a Perform check for +2 CL is pretty much a given, and munchkining that up to 30+ for +4 CL wouldn't be hard. Cool. I like that. I'll assume you're only able to reliably get the +2 bonus from here on.

So now I just want to run some cases by you, partially so I take the time to figure it all out and for you guys to confirm that I have this correct:


A Bard 10/Sublime Chord 4
Would have CL 14 and access to 6th level spell slots and both the Bard and Sorc/Wiz spell lists. In addition, it also has Bard casting at CL 14. This is pretty clear to me.
With Song of Arcane Power, you get a very respectable CL 16.
I am aware that most optimizations say don't take more than two levels of SC, but work with me for now.

A Bard 3/Sorcerer 7/Sublime Chord 4
Would have CL 11 across the board, and access to 6th level spell slots on both lists from SC. It would also have Sorcerer 7 casting, but that only allows up to 3rd level spells. However, the character casts those 3rd level spells as a CL 11, so more dice/duration/whatever. Throw in Song of Arcane Power for CL 13 when you need it.

This also seems pretty clear, but not quite as good, since if you went straight bard, you would have more damage dice, just no access to Sorc/Wiz spells under level 4.

Bard 3/Sorcerer 7/Sublime Chord 4 [+ Practiced Spellcaster(Sorcerer)]
This seems to get trickier if you add the practiced spellcaster feat into the mix. Assume you pick it up and apply it to Sorcerer in the build above. The SC CL would still be 11, as the text in the SC section (quoted above) states specifically that you add class levels, not caster levels. So both SC and Bard spell would be cast at CL 11.

Now it gets tricky. According to my reading, your CL for spells cast from your Sorcerer pool is now 15, since PracSp gives up to +4 CL, but no more than your HD. This means that you get 7 CL from Sorc levels, 4 CL from SC levels, and 4 CL from PracSp.

However, according to the text of PracSp: "This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice." I initially assumed this means that your CL is capped at 14 from this combo.

If this is true, would caster level boosting items like an orange ioun stone also count in this way in a normal PracSp build, leaving you again at your HD in CL until you managed to rack up +5 CL? How does Song of Arcane Power factor in??
Having a feat that boosts your CL that makes it harder to boost your CL in other ways seems mildly moronic to me, so I would have to say that this combo allows is essentially giving you untyped bonuses to your CL, allowing you to cast spells from your Sorc pool at CL 15 (ioun stone is just an example in my rationale, not actually included in this calculation). Song of Arcane Power boosts that to a pretty high 17 when needed.

Bard 10 / Sublime Chord 4 [+Practiced Spellcaster(Bard)]
Okay, it's gotten mildly silly at this point. Since SC isn't giving "+1 level of existing Spellcasting class" and relying on my above assumptions, that means you're sitting on an SC CL of 14, and a Bard CL of 18. Before Song of Arcane Power. Which brings you to 20.

Now CL 20 at level 14 seems IMBA, but remember, you aren't getting that on SC spells which are your highest level spells, only your Bard spells. Still, CL 20 on things like Summon Monster IV, Haste, Dominate Person, Hallucinatory Terrain, etc., puts their durations into the crazy long category. There isn't really a way for you to do straight burst damage with that CL 20 as a Bard, but if you can't figure something out, then you're doing it wrong.

It's good, it just seems more confusing than anything else.




So those are the various combinations I can think up without getting too crazy. The other sort of option is to start taking prestige classes that give +1 level of existing spellcasting class and boosting SC for the access to the high level slots.

Now as far as optimization goes, I don't see why this class is THAT crazy. Sure, you can boost your effective CL really high, but only if you go straight Bard and play around with Practiced Spellcaster. And even with that really high CL, if you started splashing a bunch of other casting classes, you'd only be getting the spell slots/spells known of the first level of them. I don't know about you, but I'm not afraid of a bard who can cast a few CL20 magic missiles at me at that level.
You begin suffering from MAD if you branch out too much, and a straight Sorcerer/Wizard has better spell progression anyway. You can't get dual arcane/divine progression, since SC is very clear about only boosting arcane casting, and your boosted CL suffers normally if you start just picking a single level of this class and that. It seems better to simply progress Sublime Chord for it's casting and be on your merry way.

I guess my question is, unless you really want that bard flavor, why wouldn't I just build a sorcerer in the first place? What does this class do except give Bards an option to access the high level arcane magic?

[Gwendol]

I think the trick is to go Bard/SC/Virtuoso in order to advance both spellcasting and bardic music.

[AMFV]

So I've recently been trying to help my friend build a bard, and I remembered seeing the sublime chord class awhile back and how broken it was. After digging it up and reading the description of how you determine caster level, I'm left more confused than anything else.

Emphasis mine:
A Sublime Chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose which to class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord caster level.

So I read this as a very good type of deal for the SC. The big perk is that it basically makes your caster level in all casting classes equal to your sublime chord casting level, as well as giving access to the Sorc/Wiz casting list.
The SC casting level is in turn is picked by selecting a casting class when you take your first level and adding it's level to your current SC level.

The other nice thing that level 2 of SC gives you is the Song of Arcane Power, which lets you take a move action, make a perform check, and depending on the results get a CL bonus to your next spell. At this level, getting 20 on a Perform check for +2 CL is pretty much a given, and munchkining that up to 30+ for +4 CL wouldn't be hard. Cool. I like that. I'll assume you're only able to reliably get the +2 bonus from here on.

So now I just want to run some cases by you, partially so I take the time to figure it all out and for you guys to confirm that I have this correct:


A Bard 10/Sublime Chord 4
Would have CL 14 and access to 6th level spell slots and both the Bard and Sorc/Wiz spell lists. In addition, it also has Bard casting at CL 14. This is pretty clear to me.
With Song of Arcane Power, you get a very respectable CL 16.
I am aware that most optimizations say don't take more than two levels of SC, but work with me for now.

A Bard 3/Sorcerer 7/Sublime Chord 4
Would have CL 11 across the board, and access to 6th level spell slots on both lists from SC. It would also have Sorcerer 7 casting, but that only allows up to 3rd level spells. However, the character casts those 3rd level spells as a CL 11, so more dice/duration/whatever. Throw in Song of Arcane Power for CL 13 when you need it.

This also seems pretty clear, but not quite as good, since if you went straight bard, you would have more damage dice, just no access to Sorc/Wiz spells under level 4.

Bard 3/Sorcerer 7/Sublime Chord 4 [+ Practiced Spellcaster(Sorcerer)]
This seems to get trickier if you add the practiced spellcaster feat into the mix. Assume you pick it up and apply it to Sorcerer in the build above. The SC CL would still be 11, as the text in the SC section (quoted above) states specifically that you add class levels, not caster levels. So both SC and Bard spell would be cast at CL 11.

Now it gets tricky. According to my reading, your CL for spells cast from your Sorcerer pool is now 15, since PracSp gives up to +4 CL, but no more than your HD. This means that you get 7 CL from Sorc levels, 4 CL from SC levels, and 4 CL from PracSp.

However, according to the text of PracSp: "This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice." I initially assumed this means that your CL is capped at 14 from this combo.

If this is true, would caster level boosting items like an orange ioun stone also count in this way in a normal PracSp build, leaving you again at your HD in CL until you managed to rack up +5 CL? How does Song of Arcane Power factor in??
Having a feat that boosts your CL that makes it harder to boost your CL in other ways seems mildly moronic to me, so I would have to say that this combo allows is essentially giving you untyped bonuses to your CL, allowing you to cast spells from your Sorc pool at CL 15 (ioun stone is just an example in my rationale, not actually included in this calculation). Song of Arcane Power boosts that to a pretty high 17 when needed.

Bard 10 / Sublime Chord 4 [+Practiced Spellcaster(Bard)]
Okay, it's gotten mildly silly at this point. Since SC isn't giving "+1 level of existing Spellcasting class" and relying on my above assumptions, that means you're sitting on an SC CL of 14, and a Bard CL of 18. Before Song of Arcane Power. Which brings you to 20.

Now CL 20 at level 14 seems IMBA, but remember, you aren't getting that on SC spells which are your highest level spells, only your Bard spells. Still, CL 20 on things like Summon Monster IV, Haste, Dominate Person, Hallucinatory Terrain, etc., puts their durations into the crazy long category. There isn't really a way for you to do straight burst damage with that CL 20 as a Bard, but if you can't figure something out, then you're doing it wrong.

It's good, it just seems more confusing than anything else.




So those are the various combinations I can think up without getting too crazy. The other sort of option is to start taking prestige classes that give +1 level of existing spellcasting class and boosting SC for the access to the high level slots.

Now as far as optimization goes, I don't see why this class is THAT crazy. Sure, you can boost your effective CL really high, but only if you go straight Bard and play around with Practiced Spellcaster. And even with that really high CL, if you started splashing a bunch of other casting classes, you'd only be getting the spell slots/spells known of the first level of them. I don't know about you, but I'm not afraid of a bard who can cast a few CL20 magic missiles at me at that level.
You begin suffering from MAD if you branch out too much, and a straight Sorcerer/Wizard has better spell progression anyway. You can't get dual arcane/divine progression, since SC is very clear about only boosting arcane casting, and your boosted CL suffers normally if you start just picking a single level of this class and that. It seems better to simply progress Sublime Chord for it's casting and be on your merry way.

I guess my question is, unless you really want that bard flavor, why wouldn't I just build a sorcerer in the first place? What does this class do except give Bards an option to access the high level arcane magic?

As for practiced spellcaster remember that caster boosts stack in the way most beneficial to the player. So the Practiced Spellcaster would apply first, then the other boosts.

[eggynack]

There are two main uses I can think of, apart from the basic use of having sorcerer spell casting attached to a bard's chassis and abilities. First, sublime chord basically replaces whatever you were doing before sublime chord, so you can put dead levels before sublime chord, advance them afterwards, and never lose a caster level. As an example I've been known to use, you can go bard 7/uncanny trickster 1/virtuoso 1/war weaver 1/sublime chord 1/war weaver 4/ uncanny trickster 2/virtuoso 3, and you get to advance war weaver out to putting seventh level spells in the weave, without losing the two caster levels you ordinarily would. Second, sublime chord has a faster casting progression than normal, which makes it pretty ideal for a theurge build that uses ur-priest for the other side. I don't have a build memorized for that, but it's a thing.

[Jeff the Green]

What you really need to take advantage of this is Master Spellthief. Trickster Spellthief 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 10. Practiced Caster (Spellthief). That will, I believe, put your Spellthief CL at 33 (9 [levels] + 4 [practiced caster] + 10 [Master Spellthief] + 10 [Sublime Chord]). Sublime Chord would be the same (10 [levels] + 13 [Spellthief] + 10 [Master Spellthief]).

[Heliomance]

The standard build is Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. This gets you 9th level Sorc/Wiz spells, 6th level Bard spells, and a few goodies earlier than you would normally get them - like Otto's Irresistible Dance as a 6th level spell. It also gets you full Bardic Music progression, and as casters don't require much in the way of feats, this means you can still pull stupid Inspire Courage shenanigans and grant the entire party +12d6 sonic damage on all attacks.

[macdaddy]

The standard build is Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. This gets you 9th level Sorc/Wiz spells, 6th level Bard spells, and a few goodies earlier than you would normally get them - like Otto's Irresistible Dance as a 6th level spell. It also gets you full Bardic Music progression, and as casters don't require much in the way of feats, this means you can still pull stupid Inspire Courage shenanigans and grant the entire party +12d6 sonic damage on all attacks.

You only get 3rd level bard spells with that build. Then you get 4th-9th level Sorc/Wizard spells. Virtuoso only increases SC caster progression, not both SC and Bard.

[Draz74]

OP: your question boils down to, "Does your DM allow you to add caster level boosts in whatever order you want, even if you end up with the ridiculous result of higher caster level than your character level?" Which is a question none of us can satisfactorally answer, since we're not your DM.


You only get 3rd level bard spells with that build. Then you get 4th-9th level Sorc/Wizard spells. Virtuoso only increases SC caster progression, not both SC and Bard.

SC can pick its spells known from the Wiz/Sorc list or the Bard list. So while you're right that your bardic casting progression would only go up to L3 spells, you could still have L4-6 bard spells thru your SC progression.

[A_S]

By my reading, the Sublime Chord caster level text isn't a bonus, it's a "set caster level to X." That makes a few of your examples not work quite the way you're saying. For instance, if a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 4 takes Practiced Spellcaster (Bard), it doesn't do anything, because the order of operations either goes:
Bard levels: 10
Sublime Chord: Sets caster level to Bard levels (10) + Sublime Chord levels (4) = 14
Practiced Spellcaster: Adds 4, but hits Hit Dice cap, so remains at 14

...or...
Bard levels: 10
Practiced Spellcaster: Adds 4, 10 + 4 = 14
Sublime Chord: Sets caster level to Bard levels (10, because as you say, it's class levels, not caster level) + Sublime Chord levels (4) = 14


Note that there are still plenty of broken ways to abuse Sublime Chord for caster level under this interpretation, but it does mean the specific ones cited in the OP don't work.

-----

*edit* Something that's less clear to me: If your character is a Bard 7/Abjurant Champion 3/Sublime Chord 1, is their caster level 11 or 8?

[Heliomance]

You only get 3rd level bard spells with that build. Then you get 4th-9th level Sorc/Wizard spells. Virtuoso only increases SC caster progression, not both SC and Bard.


A sublime chord can choose
spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list or the bard spell
list; if a spell appears on both lists at different levels, she
uses the bard version of the spell.

The last bit is why you can get Otto's Irresistible Dance as a 6th level spell, significantly before wizards get it, and you get 6th level spells significantly before pure bards do.

Basically, being a Sublime Chord gets you all the best bits of being a sorcerer and a bard at the same time.

[Talya]

You only get 3rd level bard spells with that build. Then you get 4th-9th level Sorc/Wizard spells. Virtuoso only increases SC caster progression, not both SC and Bard.


SC can pick its spells known from the Wiz/Sorc list or the Bard list. So while you're right that your bardic casting progression would only go up to L3 spells, you could still have L4-6 bard spells thru your SC progression.


Minor nitpick: With Bard 10 spellcasting (which bard 9/virtuoso 1/sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8 gets you), you can cast 0+charisma bonus level 4 bard spells per day. Since any Bard going sublime chord definitely has 18+ charisma by level 10, that means you get a double set of level 4 spells as a sublime chord.

If, like you should, you actually capped charisma at level 1, and used a class that gives you a +2 bonus, and put both of your levelling points into charisma, and already have a +6 cloak of charisma (all quite reasonable at 10), that means you are rocking a 28 charisma, which nets you +2 level 4 spells as a bonus, so you're getting 2 level 4 bard spells per day, and 4 level 4 sublime chord spells per day. By 20, when you're likely at 36 charisma, you've got 3 level 4 bard spells per day, and 8 level 4 sublime chord spells per day.

11 spells per day sounds like a lot, but they couldn't come at a better level. Level 4 has the slots you're going to burn through the most of as immediate/swift actions in tandem with other spells (assay spell resistance, ruin delver's fortune). It's actually a non-trivial thing that you get so many level 4 spells where it counts.

[eggynack]

Minor nitpick: With Bard 10 spellcasting (which bard 9/virtuoso 1/sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8 gets you), you can cast 0+charisma bonus level 4 bard spells per day. Since any Bard going sublime chord definitely has 18+ charisma by level 10, that means you get a double set of level 4 spells as a sublime chord.
Minorer nitpick: The first level of virtuoso doesn't advance spellcasting. Thus, bard 9/virtuoso 1 gets you bard 9 spellcasting. That's why you stick virtuoso before sublime chord, so you can skip the dead casting level for the purposes of your main progression.

[Talya]

Minorer nitpick: The first level of virtuoso doesn't advance spellcasting. Thus, bard 9/virtuoso 1 gets you bard 9 spellcasting. That's why you stick virtuoso before sublime chord, so you can skip the dead casting level for the purposes of your main progression.

Ah, and this is what I get for despising the virtuoso class. I didn't even realize it's less appealing than I already hated it for.

I actually prefer bard 10/sublime chord 10, even if it's just so that one can stack two Bardic Knowledge classes on each other for bardic Knack. If you're going for full casting, inspire courage isn't really something you are focusing on, anyway. Besides, with Chaos Music and a Vest of Legends, you can still get inspire courage to +3 at the same point where where you normally would get it, and it's rare games get to 20 for that +4, anyway.


I generally feel if you're going to be all bardly, bard 20 is perfect. If you're going for a bardly-feeling spellcaster, just stick with Sublime Chord.

[Gabe the Bard]

As mentioned earlier, sublime chord is great for getting early access to certain spells than a wizard, like Irresistible Dance, Mass Suggestion, and Legend Lore. Keep in mind that getting Irresistible Dance as a 6th level spell also gives it a lower DC, which is obviously bad for save-or-die spells. However, you will get access to it earlier and may be able to use it on monsters with lower CR and saves than when you have access to 8th level spells.

I've tried bard 10/sublime chord 10+ all the way to epic levels. It does require a bit of bookkeeping since by the time you quality for SC as a straight bard, you already have 4th level bard spells, so you basically get two different sets of spells with different caster levels. The best thing to do is choose 4th level bard spells for which caster level isn't very important, like Freedom of Movement, and choose 4th level SC spells that rely more on CL, like Break Enchantment (which incidentally is a 5th level wizard spell).

In my opinion, SC makes a much better mystic theurge than the mystic theurge prestige class, since bards already have a lot of divine spells on their spell list and the higher level spells can be accessed through feats like Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine) and scrolls with UMD. More importantly, they can get 9th level spells earlier AND cast them spontaneously compared to a mystic theurge, who may have more spells per day but has to prepare them and will still be lagging behind at least one level (more if they have favored soul or sorcerer as one of their base classes). The spells per day can be boosted with rings of wizardry, and at higher levels you may not use all of your spells anyway.

What makes SC particularly powerful is that you can get all this plus bardic music. Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness can be boosted with feats from various splat books. With the spell Greater Harmonize (Races of Stone), you can Inspire Courage as a move action, and then cast a spell as a standard action. The only thing you're really giving up is Inspire Heroics (which only affects one ally at a time anyway) and the extra +2 to Inspire Courage. Song of Freedom and Mass Suggestion can both be duplicated through spells. In return you get Song of Arcane Power, which as mentioned before is a nice boost to CL, but I prefer Song of Timelessness which is basically a resilient sphere whose DC can be boosted incredibly high since it is dependent on a Perform check. The song can also be maintained with Greater Harmonize or a Harmonizing Rapier, freeing you up to sing other songs or cast a spell.

[A_S]

Keep in mind that getting Irresistible Dance as a 6th level spell also gives it a lower DC, which is obviously bad for save-or-die spells.
Irresistable Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm) doesn't have a save. That's what makes it so good.

[eggynack]

I generally feel if you're going to be all bardly, bard 20 is perfect. If you're going for a bardly-feeling spellcaster, just stick with Sublime Chord.
I dunno. I think my crazy hyper-dip prior to sublime chord build is pretty neat. It's like you get to ask what you'd do if you could take as many dead caster levels as you want, or more accurately, maybe two or three. You're getting 9th's at 19, pretty much no matter what you do, and that's a freeing thing. You end up getting those 9th's at the exact same time that a wizard would, were he to advance war weaver to the fullest, and you get them a level earlier than a sorcerer doing the same thing. I don't know if this stuff is necessarily good, but it's certainly rather cool.

[Talya]

Bardic Knack is my favorite ACF in the game.

Since it replaces Bardic Knowledge, and Sublime Chords get bardic knowledge stacking with bard, nothing prevents you from getting +10 to all skills you've taken no ranks in even with Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10. Couple that with the feat Chaos Music and a Vest of Legend, and you're still 95% the bard that you would have been with Bard 20, albeit less martially focused with that slightly lower BAB. Of course, you don't care about those any more, because you're a bloody tier 2 spellcasting goddess now, and melee types are nothing more than gnats buzzing around your head.


Virtuoso costs you some spells per day and spells known.
It costs you 5 ranks in every skill you're not keeping maxed out.
And in return you get...uh, +1 BAB and I suppose at 20 you get +1 to inspire courage that you don't get if you just go Bard 10/SC 10.

[eggynack]

I think it's at least partially about the extra songs. They seem reasonably useful. Anyways, the war weaver option is better than both. Ya can't doubt the effectiveness of that class, given that it's one of the few classes in the entire game that gets taken in high op scenarios despite ditching caster levels. It also fits the whole buffing shtick of the bard.

[Talya]

I think it's at least partially about the extra songs. They seem reasonably useful. Anyways, the war weaver option is better than both. Ya can't doubt the effectiveness of that class, given that it's one of the few classes in the entire game that gets taken in high op scenarios despite ditching caster levels. It also fits the whole buffing shtick of the bard.

While true, i'm not entirely sure the benefit of using Bard/Sublime Chord entry for it. I believe you're better off simply using Wizard. I'm not seeing a synergy there.

Sure, the level of bardic spellcasting you lose doesn't slow down your spell progression much, but you'd still get the spells faster if you just took Wizard/War Weaver (18th level for 9s instead of 19th.)

[eggynack]

While true, i'm not entirely sure the benefit of using Bard/Sublime Chord entry for it. I believe you're better off simply using Wizard. I'm not seeing a synergy there.

Sure, the level of bardic spellcasting you lose doesn't slow down your spell progression much, but you'd still get the spells faster if you just took Wizard/War Weaver (18th level for 9s instead of 19th.)
Well, as I noted in the build above, it's actually a fair sight better than that. In addition to the level of war weaver, you also take a level of uncanny trickster, which allows you to advance war weaver advancing sublime chord. You're still at par with a wizard's progression at that point, which has the benefit of the wizard's prepared casting, so you might be right that wizard is a better entry point. The bard chassis certainly has advantages though, and you get access to lower leveled bard spells, which is nice. Also, I think I just remembered the reason you go virtuoso. Sublime chord doesn't advance inspire courage, while virtuoso does.

[Talya]

Also, I think I just remembered the reason you go virtuoso. Sublime chord doesn't advance inspire courage, while virtuoso does.

I accounted for that.

Chaos Music (feat) gives you +4 levels of Inspire Courage (but it works like Practiced Spellcaster - it can't exceed your hit dice).
A Vest of Legend gives you +5 more levels.

That means you don't start falling behind on Inspire Courage progression until level 20. (although at 21, you'd start taking bard again anyway...why only gain Epic CL when you could keep gaining more spells?)

[Draz74]

I think a lot of the appeal of using Virtuoso to advance Sublime Chord comes from:

Getting 6+INT skill points per level, as if you hadn't left Bard.
Getting more music uses per day than the Sublime Chord gets.


Virtuoso definitely has some downsides, like the lack of Bardic Knowledge progression. But it's also got a lot of strengths.

Also, my inner pedant demands that I point out that using Sublime Chord (or anything else that advances Bardic Knowledge) to advance Bardic Knack technically requires a houserule, although it's a pretty reasonable one.

[Heliomance]

If you're going for full casting, inspire courage isn't really something you are focusing on, anyway.

Whyever not? Casting doesn't require any of your feats or WBL, which are what you use to buff IC. My example of 12d6 sonic damage on all the party's attacks was not hyperbole.

[Talya]

Whyever not? Casting doesn't require any of your feats or WBL, which are what you use to buff IC. My example of 12d6 sonic damage on all the party's attacks was not hyperbole.

Melodic casting is damn near a Feat Tax. However, if you're focusing on inspire courage, you're best off meleeing yourself, as there's likely no more than one other party member who is inclined to do so. Inspire courage optimization requires at least three feats (though one you may be able to get through an ACF). Melee requires four more. Without flaws, it gets tight.


I think a lot of the appeal of using Virtuoso to advance Sublime Chord comes from:

Getting 6+INT skill points per level, as if you hadn't left Bard.
Getting more music uses per day than the Sublime Chord gets.


Bardic Knack amounts to far more skill ranks, and the wording of Chaos Music and the Vest of Legends both add more music uses per day. (Of course, a virtuoso can wear a vest of legends, too, but do you really need 25 bardic music uses a day at 20?)



Virtuoso definitely has some downsides, like the lack of Bardic Knowledge progression. But it's also got a lot of strengths.

Oh, I can see it's strengths, I know why people use it. However, I don't think it gives enough back for what you're getting. Most of its advantages are either replicable through other means or are costing you more than you're getting.

Of course, my opinion on the matter is biased -- I believe that the best bard is Bard 20 (though not mechanically the best, per se). Even Sublime Chord, which is a massive upgrade in power for the Bard, and definitely good from an optimization perspective, isn't my ideal of a bard build. You sacrifice too much from the Bard that I love. The difference between Sublime Chord and Virtuoso, is with Sublime Chord it's clear that the advantages outweigh the costs, from a mechanical perspective. With Virtuoso, that is, at best, debatable. Since I don't like multiclassing a bard to start with, Virtuoso needs to be a lot better than it is to win me over.

Whether or not I'd use Sublime Chord ultimately depends on the party makeup. If We've got a wizard or sorcerer already in the party, my bard doesn't get multiclassed. If we don't, Sublime Chord can let you play a bard while filling the role of primary arcane spellcaster.


Also, my inner pedant demands that I point out that using Sublime Chord (or anything else that advances Bardic Knowledge) to advance Bardic Knack technically requires a houserule, although it's a pretty reasonable one.

Meh...I think that's a matter of interpretation. I'm inclined to say if you're allowing Bardic Knowledge to be traded for Bardic Knack to begin with (ACFs have an odd relationship with RAW to start with, being an "alternate" RAW, rather than part of the same set of rules to which the game defaults), and don't say otherwise, you've already granted it by agreeing that the two features are equivalent and interchangeable.