Optimize the D&D Iconics

[Ziegander]

The goal here is to throw WotC original builds for their Iconic Characters out the window and rebuild them all from scratch. All base class levels must be in their original base class (so Paladin for Alhandra and Fighter for Regdar, etc), but beyond that, the characters can take any PrCs, substitution levels, Bloodlines, whatever, you want them to. Change their races even if you want. Optimize the characters as much as possible!

Characters to stat up: Alhandra (Paladin), Devis (Bard), Ember (Monk), Gimble (Bard), Hennet (Sorcerer), Jozan (Cleric), Kerwyn (Rogue), Krusk (Barbarian), Lidda (Rogue), Mialee (Wizard), Regdar (Fighter), Soveliss (Ranger), Tordek (Fighter), and Vadania (Druid).

EDIT: Oh, and, I'm sorry, use 30 point buy to generate stats.

[prufock]

Regdar (Dwarf)

Bwuh? I think you mean Regdar (Fighter), since all the others are listed by class and Regdar is a human!

[Gwendol]

Maybe he's a relic from BECMI? :smallsmile:

[Greenish]

Hmm, making Redgar into Jack B. Quick style character with dip into Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow with dwarven waraxe might be interesting. There aren't that many good non-caster PrCs to round it up, though. Maybe Singh Rager?


[Edit]: Ki Shout requires Cha. Getting a bit MAD.

[Ziegander]

Bwuh? I think you mean Regdar (Fighter), since all the others are listed by class and Regdar is a human!

lol, yes, that's what I meant.

[prufock]

Krusk is a pouncing whirling frenzy barbarian.

Jozan has Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell coming out the wazoo.

Vadania... is a druid. Do you need more? Planar Shepherd?

Tordek is a dungeoncrashing shock trooping juggernaut with martial study for stone dragon maneuvers.

Soveliss is a wildshaping mystic shooting star sword of the arcane order ranger.

Regdar ditches the sword for a reach weapon and becomes a "I dare you to hit me" combat reflexes AoO build.

Ember goes into Psionic Fist so she can actually be useful.

Devis/Gimble optimize Inspire Courage, one of them takes Dragonfire Inspiration and Dragon Heritage (to get sonic damage type). Devis' secondary focus is on diplomancy, while Gimble's is Jack of All Trades and Bardic Knack.

Alhandra of course has Battle Blessing and some Divine X feats to spend her turn undead uses on. She'll probably optimize her special mount somehow.

Hennett goes for a Mailman-type build.

Mialee is a freaking wizard. She does whatever the heck she wants.

Lidda takes a level in something that casts spells and PrCs to advance that. Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster, etc. She gets as many PrC dips with both sneak attack and spellcasting as she can, probably with a bloodline.

[(Un)Inspired]

Well this is probably a bad idea but what about using Regdar's bonus human and fighter feats to get into master of the nine? It would take a silly amount of feats but he would have good maneuver access...

[Eldariel]

Honestly, more interesting to optimize them with an eye for optimal class comboes since Fighter-types have ****ty base classes and no PRCs in 3.5. Which leaves Tordek, Regdar, Ember, Soveliss & Lidda kinda lacking (Soveliss and Lidda a bit less so, since you can actually do stuff with Rogue & Ranger). Tordek screams "Crusader" to me and Redgar would make for a solid Warblade. Ember would obviously become Unarmed Swordsage (tho I could see a Tashalatora build for her too). Soveliss would be a Ranger/Warblade multiclass and Lidda would be a Rogue/Swordsage. Kursk can be Barbarian or Barbarian/Warblade, that just makes a difference with whether he has one or more ways to hit people in the face.

[Gwendol]

Alhandra is an Illumian paladin of Mystra. She takes the divine spirit ACF and gets rid of her mount, furthermore she should take the Mystic Fire Knight sub levels instead of turn undead. Since there are two bards already, she can keep smite evil.
Still a bit MAD, but less so, and quite the powerhouse thanks to SotAO, Battle Blessing, and the divine spirit (see Dungeonscape). If a mount is needed she can cast Phantom Steed!

[Psyren]

As a servant of the Burning Hate, Jozan should have Dark Speech and craft his items using souls reaped from his nonhuman comrades. Factor in roughly a 33% increase in his WBL.

[Greenish]

Alhandra is an Illumian paladin of Mystra. She takes the divine spirit ACF and gets rid of her mount, furthermore she should take the Mystic Fire Knight sub levels instead of turn undead. Since there are two bards already, she can keep smite evil.
Still a bit MAD, but less so, and quite the powerhouse thanks to SotAO, Battle Blessing, and the divine spirit (see Dungeonscape). If a mount is needed she can cast Phantom Steed!Serenity (Dr.Comp.) should help with the MAD.

Of course, she could also ditch paladin beyond level 4 for a full-on Sir Wisdom the SAD.

Third option is an arcane gish with Mystic Fire Knight Paladin/Suel Arcanamach/Abjurant Champion.

[Chronos]

Wouldn't it be in the spirit of the thing to restrict this to core only? The iconic characters were all unveiled in the PHB, when most of these options weren't available.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Wouldn't it be in the spirit of the thing to restrict this to core only? The iconic characters were all unveiled in the PHB, when most of these options weren't available.

But the iconics have been depicted utilizing lots of non-core material in various books.

[Prime32]

Hey, there's a Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_iconic_characters


Mialee looks kind of nature-y (because ELF), so maybe levels in Wild Soul or Ruathar? Might as well set her race to something like gray elf while you're at it.


Serenity (Dr.Comp.) should help with the MAD.

Of course, she could also ditch paladin beyond level 4 for a full-on Sir Wisdom the SAD.

Third option is an arcane gish with Mystic Fire Knight Paladin/Suel Arcanamach/Abjurant Champion.She's got a tattoo of Heironeous's holy symbol, so what about putting most of her levels in Ardent (with Practiced Manifester) and making it a psionic tattoo?

[Ziegander]

Honestly, more interesting to optimize them with an eye for optimal class comboes since Fighter-types have ****ty base classes and no PRCs in 3.5. Which leaves Tordek, Regdar, Ember, Soveliss & Lidda kinda lacking (Soveliss and Lidda a bit less so, since you can actually do stuff with Rogue & Ranger). Tordek screams "Crusader" to me and Redgar would make for a solid Warblade. Ember would obviously become Unarmed Swordsage (tho I could see a Tashalatora build for her too). Soveliss would be a Ranger/Warblade multiclass and Lidda would be a Rogue/Swordsage. Kursk can be Barbarian or Barbarian/Warblade, that just makes a difference with whether he has one or more ways to hit people in the face.

More interesting possibly, but these characters are only Iconic because they are representative of the Core classes from the PHB. Removing the only thing that makes them Iconic goes against the spirit of the thread don't you think?


Wouldn't it be in the spirit of the thing to restrict this to core only? The iconic characters were all unveiled in the PHB, when most of these options weren't available.

However, going outside of Core is part of the point and part of the charm of this exercise. I want to see what people can do with the concepts and characters with full access to all of D&D's wonderful material with the only restriction being that the characters' base class levels must all be of their original class.

[Eldariel]

More interesting possibly, but these characters are only Iconic because they are representative of the Core classes from the PHB. Removing the only thing that makes them goes against the spirit of the thread don't you think?

I don't think so. Tordek's a prototypical dwarf; axe and shield, no magic, a hardy, cumbrous, tough-to-harm bruiser. I don't really think such a stereotype is really tied to any class. Amusingly, Enemies and Allies gives him a Composite Longbow and Point Blank Shot, Far Shot & Shot on the Run; guess they ran outta feats to take.

Regdar on the other hand is basically a Human Warrior; more nimble and versatile than Tordek but still relies on brawn more than agility. Adept at both Greatsword and Composite Longbow, you could actually make an argument for using spelless Ranger-levels on him. Either way, the principal difference between him and Tordek is that while Tordek has a defensive setup with Dwarven Waraxe + Large Shield, Regdar is more aggressive with a Greatsword, and Regdar also has more Dex to make a better use outta his bow. He also eventually picks up Combat Expertise (when he conjures up a Headband of Intellect +4 on level 15).

Krusk is a step forward from Regdar with only Point Blank Shot for ranged combat and most of the focus on his Greataxe (interestingly, he has Combat Reflexes with a non-reach weapon). He still has a bow but he barely knows which way to use it.

Soveliss is weird in that he's setup for both, TWF and archery. He has the TWF combat style and then picks Archery-feats. Either way, he's the prototypical "dexterous fighter"; TWF was envisioned as the dexterous style after all (see the Dex prerequisites on the feat). Everybody has a bow but he's actually good with his.

Ember is, of course, the unarmed type with, strangely enough, Javelins for ranged combat. She's more dexterous than strong so you'd think she'd be the one to burn a feat for a Bow but naa, she'd rather just take that 30' range increment.


Anyways, I think you don't need class to make the distinction in their combat style here:
Tordek: Dwarf Warrior with Axe & Shield, low Dex, high Strength. Defensive. Secondary focus on Con.
Redgar: Human Warrior with Greatsword & bow, medium Dex, high Strength. Offensive. Secondary focus on Int, including feat paths.
Krusk: (Half-)Orc Warrior with a Greataxe (& bow), v. high Strength, medium Dex, decent Wisdom. Offensive. Secondary focus on Con.
Soveliss: Elf Warrior with a Bow, a Longsword & Shortsword. V. high Dex, medium Strength. Knows some magic. Even split. Secondary focus on Wis.
Ember: Human Warrior with unarmed strikes & javelins. V. high Dex, medium Strength. Secondary focus on Wis.


Basically, they all have Dex and Strength as primary stats in some order, then a secondary focus. They all have different weapon choices & combat preferences, and they all fit their racial stereotype (and only ones from the same race are two Humans).

As such, I don't think it'd be hard to convey the contents of their ability through a medium other than their chosen class. Hell, like I said, Redgar could be a Spell-less Ranger easily enough and a casual viewer couldn't tell.

[Draz74]

Guys, I think we should respect the OP's request of keeping the original base class. If we want to re-build the iconics with more interesting base classes (which would be more interesting to me, too), we should probably do it in a separate thread so Zieg doesn't get hijacked.

[Ziegander]

I don't think so. Tordek's a prototypical dwarf; axe and shield, no magic, a hardy, cumbrous, tough-to-harm bruiser. I don't really think such a stereotype is really tied to any class. Amusingly, Enemies and Allies gives him a Composite Longbow and Point Blank Shot, Far Shot & Shot on the Run; guess they ran outta feats to take.

Regdar on the other hand is basically a Human Warrior; more nimble and versatile than Tordek but still relies on brawn more than agility. Adept at both Greatsword and Composite Longbow, you could actually make an argument for using spelless Ranger-levels on him. Either way, the principal difference between him and Tordek is that while Tordek has a defensive setup with Dwarven Waraxe + Large Shield, Regdar is more aggressive with a Greatsword, and Regdar also has more Dex to make a better use outta his bow. He also eventually picks up Combat Expertise (when he conjures up a Headband of Intellect +4 on level 15).

Krusk is a step forward from Regdar with only Point Blank Shot for ranged combat and most of the focus on his Greataxe (interestingly, he has Combat Reflexes with a non-reach weapon). He still has a bow but he barely knows which way to use it.

Soveliss is weird in that he's setup for both, TWF and archery. He has the TWF combat style and then picks Archery-feats. Either way, he's the prototypical "dexterous fighter"; TWF was envisioned as the dexterous style after all (see the Dex prerequisites on the feat). Everybody has a bow but he's actually good with his.

Ember is, of course, the unarmed type with, strangely enough, Javelins for ranged combat. She's more dexterous than strong so you'd think she'd be the one to burn a feat for a Bow but naa, she'd rather just take that 30' range increment.


Anyways, I think you don't need class to make the distinction in their combat style here:
Tordek: Dwarf Warrior with Axe & Shield, low Dex, high Strength. Defensive. Secondary focus on Con.
Redgar: Human Warrior with Greatsword & bow, medium Dex, high Strength. Offensive. Secondary focus on Int, including feat paths.
Krusk: (Half-)Orc Warrior with a Greataxe (& bow), v. high Strength, medium Dex, decent Wisdom. Offensive. Secondary focus on Con.
Soveliss: Elf Warrior with a Bow, a Longsword & Shortsword. V. high Dex, medium Strength. Knows some magic. Even split. Secondary focus on Wis.
Ember: Human Warrior with unarmed strikes & javelins. V. high Dex, medium Strength. Secondary focus on Wis.


Basically, they all have Dex and Strength as primary stats in some order, then a secondary focus. They all have different weapon choices & combat preferences, and they all fit their racial stereotype (and only ones from the same race are two Humans).

As such, I don't think it'd be hard to convey the contents of their ability through a medium other than their chosen class. Hell, like I said, Redgar could be a Spell-less Ranger easily enough and a casual viewer couldn't tell.

But that undercuts the entire reason the Iconics existed in the first place. They aren't Iconic because of their choice of combat style, or their theme of spells. They are Iconic because they are iconic members of the respective core classes.


Guys, I think we should respect the OP's request of keeping the original base class. If we want to re-build the iconics with more interesting base classes (which would be more interesting to me, too), we should probably do it in a separate thread so Zieg doesn't get hijacked.

Thank you. Yes, that would be an interesting exercise too. It has, however, already been done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122403) (though not very extensively). Building new Iconics could be interesting as well. I for one think a Human Barbarian a la Conan is what most new players would expect (or would have at 3.5's launch) as the Iconic example of a Barbarian. But, for this thread, I think my one limitation is pretty reasonable. They are Iconic representatives of their respective base classes, so I feel they should retain levels in that base class and not take any other base class levels. Everything else is up for grabs.

[Greenish]

But how Iconic is a paladin that prepares wizard spells from a spellbook to toss around? Or one that learns to use meditation and mental powers to enhance herself? (To use examples already offered in this thread.)

To optimize most Core classes (especially non-casters), you want to get out of the class as soon as possible, and often (especially for non-casters) into something quite unlike your base class.

[Psyren]

To optimize most Core classes (especially non-casters), you want to get out of the class as soon as possible, and often (especially for non-casters) into something quite unlike your base class.

Tsk, tsk. Poor 3.5 :smalltongue:

[Kaje]

Well this is probably a bad idea but what about using Regdar's bonus human and fighter feats to get into master of the nine? It would take a silly amount of feats but he would have good maneuver access...

You can only take martial study 3 times.

[Greenish]

Tsk, tsk. Poor 3.5 :smalltongue:Heh, well, they do have places to go, and non-core occasionally does better.

[T.G. Oskar]

Krusk is pretty straight-forward: Spirit Lion Totem (for Pounce) and build him up for Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. From there, the options are varied: Frenzied Berserker makes him a threat to his allies but maximizes his Strength bonus and Power Attack damage potential so you can reach upwards of 5 points of damage per every point of BAB/AC sacrificed; Bear Warrior to turn him into a raging, pouncing dire bear (the Strength bonus should be far, far enough to make Shock Trooper pretty much irrelevant, but you lose on the weapon damage bonus and the iteratives), perhaps the first 5 levels of Eye of Gruumsh for Swing Blindly (+4 to Strength, -4 to AC while Raging) and the short-range Blindsight (combine with some sort of blindsense and you get a decent chance of facing any kind of invisible or concealed creature with no chance of failure). He's pretty much straightforward.

Devis...he's meant to be a half-elf bard, right? He could be refluffed into a Forestlord Half-Elf and thus get acid-based Dragonfire Inspiration, but then he'd be a poor Diplomancer (no racial bonuses to Diplomacy and Gather Info). The Half-Elf Bard racial substitution level is also rather poor, lacking nice abilities (you lose countersong for an ability that's pretty much another form of Fascinate, Suggestion for Command, and a 4th level spell for three spells, one of them being...Command). If he's to be salvaged, with the caveat of remaining his actual race, he'd need to make some big changes; namely, being the one that maximizes Inspire Courage (Inspirational Boost, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation), with a clear focus on Diplomacy. He'd be the more "traditional" bard.

Gimble, on the other hand, probably is the one better-inclined towards magic, so he'd be the Sublime Chord (with a bit of Virtuoso on the line). He'd still retain the boosts to Inspire Courage, but he'd be the one who'd gain Dragonfire Inspiration (to reinforce his Sorcerer heritage). If it's even possible, adding a few levels of Lyric Thaumaturge early on could also work, to pad up his earlier Bard spellcasting. He'd probably have to be a Chaos Gnome (LA buy-off) Bardic Sage 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +7. Since he gets Fascinate twice, he could replace it for Healing Hymn, and Countersong for Spellbreaker Song (Devis already gets those), but he'd keep Inspire Competence (as Devis needs all the help he can muster). He'd be the more "eccentric" Bard, being great at many things, but specifically on magic (getting Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration and potentially even Draconic Legacy, to have access to a wide variety of spells).

Jozan acts like the classic Clericzilla, but doesn't really feel like one. Probably RSoP and a heal focus, but making healing spells worthwhile (such as the Complete Champion feat that allows you to add buffs while you heal, Touch of Healing, and Complete Divine's Sacred Healing for fast healing), Replace the ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells with Spontaneous Domain Casting, netting Sun and Healing. Tempted to turn him into a Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion, leave him only with the Sun domain until he gets into RSoP, then net the Healing domain at RSoP 5th to worry as little about healing as possible. He could do well as a caster-inclined cleric, leaving his actual slots for spells such as Blade Barrier, Holy Smite, Fire Storm, Earthquake, Implosion and whatnot. Replace "holy" with "unholy" if you're serious about the Blinding Light of Pelor.
Eberk, on the other hand (you do remember the dwarven cleric, no?)...he fits the idea of the Clericzilla, on the other hand; Cleric of Moradin, has a somewhat decent martial weapon, Dwarves get more Constitution... Even with the loss of Charisma, Eberk could easily get the required uses of Turn Undead to fuel his spells. Likewise, if you're not too hung up for 2nd level spells, you can sacrifice one slot for free proficiency with Warhammers and additional damage with them.

Also agreeing with prufrock regarding Vadania; she's a druid, what else can be said? Get a bear (the bigger, the better), turn her into a bear, Natural Spell, summon multiple bears, go to town. If you feel bearly complete, add Sentinel of Bharrai to the list, so that you may get a Cavalry of Dire Bears (if only once per week). Alternatively, she can turn into a Dire Lion, get a Dire Lion as an animal companion, and get into the Lion of Talisid PrC for tasty feline goodness. Else, she can become a Planar Shepherd.

Regarding Regdar, he'd overlap a lot with Krusk in terms of damage potential, but he could pull off a sorta-Roy, get some decent Int and go for a Tripper build, with hints of Power Attack and crit-fishing with Blood in the Water. The best weapon for him would be a Drow scorpion chain, from Secrets of Xen'drik, for its favorable critical threat range. With Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Drow Scorpion Chain), Martial Study (any Tiger Claw maneuver), Martial Stance (Blood in the Water), Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Knockdown, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes and either Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit, that's 12 out of the 18 possible feats Regdar can choose, which leaves him free to choose Archery feats, specialize in the chain (6 feats lets you end up with WF, WS, GWF, GWS, Melee Weapon Mastery and either Slashing Flurry or Weapon Supremacy (whichever takes your fancy); alternatively, he could dip 2-3 levels in Exotic Weapon Master and take EW Stunts (such as Trip Attack, Flurry of Strikes and maybe Exotic Reach). To add twice the fun, the weapon could be made of Kaorti Resin and improved by means of the Ancestral Relic feat. To top it off, perhaps make him a Zhentarim Fighter? With Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered, he'll end up with solid CC.

Tordek, on the other hand, could easily try to make Sword & Board useful, though I see him getting Combat Form feats. Between Imp. Shield Bash, Shield Specialization (heavy), Shield Ward, Shield Sling, Shield Charge, Shield Slam and Agile Shield Fighting, alongside a way to pounce, he could work something decent (Pounce + Shield Slam = dazed opponent on a failed save). If he can justify being from Eberron, he could get Mror Stalwart to apply the benefits of certain feats (the WF line and Imp. Critical) to four weapons (battleaxe, warhammer, dwarven waraxe, dwarven urgrosh) and apply the bonus from any used action point to his damage rolls (on a single attack, though). If he gets good Wis, then the best Combat Form feats would involve Combat Awareness and Combat Vigor, for blindsense and decent fast healing for up to 1 minute. Perhaps top it off with Dungeon Crasher and the needed set-up, perhaps with Combat Brute for its Domino Bull Rush ability.

Ember would be hard to optimize, but it'd involve primarily buffing her unarmed strike damage. The first few levels would involve getting her Imp. Natural Attack, keep Stunning Fist, net her Hidden Talent, and replacing Evasion with Invisible Fist. From there, it's either Psionic Fist (of Zuoken), or somehow getting Tashalatora to apply to War Mind (and thus, net that juicy Sweeping Strike). From there, make her a "Queen" of Smack, but getting Fiery Fist and perhaps Fiery Ki Defense/Ki Blast; sure, you get to deal only 1d6 fire damage per use of Stunning Fist, but it applies for all attacks done during the round. If she can get enough Monk levels to matter, Decisive Strike can replace Flurry of Blows and perhaps would set her up for a nice AoO build (with Sweeping Strike, that means you can deal AoO's that affect two adjacent opponents and deal double ALL damage). Since Regdar's the tripper (and fearmonger), she could top it all off with Stand Still and make them unable to move from her pummeling.

Alhandra could easily be an "A-Game Paladin", but she could also easily be an Ubercharger and that'd be it. Ubercharger is pretty easy (Spirited Charge, mostly, and add a Valorous Lance with a wand of Rhino's Rush for quintuple damage on a charge), and a mount that's worthwhile (Griffon?). The "A-Game" Paladin would remove the From Smite to Song feat (Devis already covers, though she can be decent if necessary), and probably shift her allegiance to Mystra or Azuth to become a Mystic Fire Knight (with Sword of the Arcane Order) with...Battle Blessing. Pretty standard fare, though the latter would replace the mount for Divine Spirit. If she can nudge them, she could add one or two Combat Form feats (she has the Wisdom for it, after all) in addition to her Divine feats.

Soveliss...he's going full archer. The iconic dual-wielder is Drizzt, after all, so it's best to focus on what he should be good at. I'd say...Justice of Weald and Woe would be decent, even if its spellcasting is limited; they get the nice arrow-based spells, bonus feats, sneak attack and even Death Attack tacked on for free, and they still get Hide in Plain Sight and the ability to fire in melee without provoking AoO. Since their Ranger spellcasting will be weak, it's fair for them to replace them for the bonus feats, even if it's for the best that they keep one; ditto for the Animal Companion, as Distracting Attack makes for an interesting technique to use. Just for fun, I'd add two levels of Stalker of Kharash and Highland Stalker; the former would add all Evil creatures as favored enemies and the latter would add Skirmish, which with Swift Hunter can be artificially inflated. With so many feats, and qualifying as a 15th level Fighter for purposes of feats (5 from Ranger, since you can't get to any of the PrCs before 5th level, then 10 from Justice of Weald and Woe), you can even afford to spend some points on the WF line for longbows. Top it off with Greater Manyshot and go to town.

Lidda could make for a fun Grenadier build: specialize in splash weapons, high Sneak Attack, a method to bypass the immunity to SA for most creatures (most likely with Use Magic Device), TWF line and the Grenadier feat. Find a way to be invisible for most of the time (or hang with Soveliss!) and net as many dice of Sneak Attack with touch attacks. She could make for an odd Trapmaster build (using the actual Trapmaster class from Dungeonscape) despite the loss of SA damage dice. Her key ability would be to play the environment in her favor, never relying on attacking directly.

Kerwyn, on the other hand...it's hard not to think of Daring Outlaw for him; it fits his character design. Duelist is a trap, Invisible Blade doesn't allow him to use any weapons other than (punching) daggers, and he lacks spellcasting to make an effective Swiftblade. Perhaps if he gets some spellcasting ability and a way to cast Haste as a 3rd level spell without relying on Trapsmith, he could end up going straight into Swiftblade and maybe some Arcane Duelist on the side (or thinking it properly, maybe not). If the requirements could be waived for him, he could make a pretty nice Daring Outlaw. The feat was almost thought for him. Maybe top it off with loads of Luck feats; after all, isn't he one of the exemplars of "a little luck can go a long way"?

Hennet is a pretty bare-bones Sorcerer, and thus he should focus on what Sorcerers do best; much like prufrock mentioned, a Mailman build could be on the works. Focus on a few spells, rather than specialize in many. If it weren't because of the big loss of spellcasting ability, Hennet could make a decent Master Transmogrifist; focus on a few favored forms, and exploit Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange. Aside from that, he might probably draw some benefit from Draconic feats, replace his familiar for a Divine Companion (Complete Champion), think seriously of Domain Access (also from Complete Champion) and maybe a Dragonpact or two (through Pact-Bound Adept).

Mialee has it easy; Elven generalist Wizard, straight into Incantatrix. She can ramp up her flexibility with Wizard of Sun and Moon, thus refusing her 2nd racial substitution level (the one that replaces Wizard 3rd). Oh yeah: did I forget to mention Archmage?

Nebin is our signature Illusionist, so he'll probably be a Gnome Illusionist/Master Specialist (Illusionist)/Shadowcraft Mage. Another pretty simple one. He obviously replaces his familiar for Immediate Magic.

That leaves Naull (what's she supposed to be, anyways?), Ialdabode (the Iconic Psion), Morthos (the Iconic Warlock), Ferno (the Iconic Warmage), and all the other Iconics. The post is becoming uncomfortably long for you (and tedious for me; yes, long posts CAN be tedious!), so I'll cut it for now.

[Greenish]

I hadn't even realized they had duplicate iconics for classes other than fighter.

[AstralFire]

Devis was in the 3.0 PHB, Gimble replaced him in 3.5.

I won't lie, the change in art alone gave me intense new respect for the Bard class. Gimble was cool, Devis...

I must confess to not knowing Kerwyn or Eberk though.

[MeeposFire]

Devis was in the 3.0 PHB, Gimble replaced him in 3.5.

I won't lie, the change in art alone gave me intense new respect for the Bard class. Gimble was cool, Devis...

I must confess to not knowing Kerwyn or Eberk though.

They used them in the initial introduction to 3e D&D box sets. They always come with premade characters and they usually like having two of each basic type (fighter, cleric, wizard, and thief) which is why we have two fighters, two wizards, two clerics, and two thieves.

The non most basic character classes were not in that set so they only have one for each of those classes (exception being bard when they made sure to have a gnome being the iconic bard with the favored class change despite the history of bards and half elves).

[Ziegander]

Krusk is pretty straight-forward: Spirit Lion Totem (for Pounce) and build him up for Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. From there, the options are varied: Frenzied Berserker makes him a threat to his allies but maximizes his Strength bonus and Power Attack damage potential so you can reach upwards of 5 points of damage per every point of BAB/AC sacrificed; Bear Warrior to turn him into a raging, pouncing dire bear (the Strength bonus should be far, far enough to make Shock Trooper pretty much irrelevant, but you lose on the weapon damage bonus and the iteratives), perhaps the first 5 levels of Eye of Gruumsh for Swing Blindly (+4 to Strength, -4 to AC while Raging) and the short-range Blindsight (combine with some sort of blindsense and you get a decent chance of facing any kind of invisible or concealed creature with no chance of failure). He's pretty much straightforward.

Devis...he's meant to be a half-elf bard, right? He could be refluffed into a Forestlord Half-Elf and thus get acid-based Dragonfire Inspiration, but then he'd be a poor Diplomancer (no racial bonuses to Diplomacy and Gather Info). The Half-Elf Bard racial substitution level is also rather poor, lacking nice abilities (you lose countersong for an ability that's pretty much another form of Fascinate, Suggestion for Command, and a 4th level spell for three spells, one of them being...Command). If he's to be salvaged, with the caveat of remaining his actual race, he'd need to make some big changes; namely, being the one that maximizes Inspire Courage (Inspirational Boost, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation), with a clear focus on Diplomacy. He'd be the more "traditional" bard.

Gimble, on the other hand, probably is the one better-inclined towards magic, so he'd be the Sublime Chord (with a bit of Virtuoso on the line). He'd still retain the boosts to Inspire Courage, but he'd be the one who'd gain Dragonfire Inspiration (to reinforce his Sorcerer heritage). If it's even possible, adding a few levels of Lyric Thaumaturge early on could also work, to pad up his earlier Bard spellcasting. He'd probably have to be a Chaos Gnome (LA buy-off) Bardic Sage 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +7. Since he gets Fascinate twice, he could replace it for Healing Hymn, and Countersong for Spellbreaker Song (Devis already gets those), but he'd keep Inspire Competence (as Devis needs all the help he can muster). He'd be the more "eccentric" Bard, being great at many things, but specifically on magic (getting Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration and potentially even Draconic Legacy, to have access to a wide variety of spells).

Jozan acts like the classic Clericzilla, but doesn't really feel like one. Probably RSoP and a heal focus, but making healing spells worthwhile (such as the Complete Champion feat that allows you to add buffs while you heal, Touch of Healing, and Complete Divine's Sacred Healing for fast healing), Replace the ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells with Spontaneous Domain Casting, netting Sun and Healing. Tempted to turn him into a Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion, leave him only with the Sun domain until he gets into RSoP, then net the Healing domain at RSoP 5th to worry as little about healing as possible. He could do well as a caster-inclined cleric, leaving his actual slots for spells such as Blade Barrier, Holy Smite, Fire Storm, Earthquake, Implosion and whatnot. Replace "holy" with "unholy" if you're serious about the Blinding Light of Pelor.
Eberk, on the other hand (you do remember the dwarven cleric, no?)...he fits the idea of the Clericzilla, on the other hand; Cleric of Moradin, has a somewhat decent martial weapon, Dwarves get more Constitution... Even with the loss of Charisma, Eberk could easily get the required uses of Turn Undead to fuel his spells. Likewise, if you're not too hung up for 2nd level spells, you can sacrifice one slot for free proficiency with Warhammers and additional damage with them.

Also agreeing with prufrock regarding Vadania; she's a druid, what else can be said? Get a bear (the bigger, the better), turn her into a bear, Natural Spell, summon multiple bears, go to town. If you feel bearly complete, add Sentinel of Bharrai to the list, so that you may get a Cavalry of Dire Bears (if only once per week). Alternatively, she can turn into a Dire Lion, get a Dire Lion as an animal companion, and get into the Lion of Talisid PrC for tasty feline goodness. Else, she can become a Planar Shepherd.

Regarding Regdar, he'd overlap a lot with Krusk in terms of damage potential, but he could pull off a sorta-Roy, get some decent Int and go for a Tripper build, with hints of Power Attack and crit-fishing with Blood in the Water. The best weapon for him would be a Drow scorpion chain, from Secrets of Xen'drik, for its favorable critical threat range. With Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Drow Scorpion Chain), Martial Study (any Tiger Claw maneuver), Martial Stance (Blood in the Water), Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Knockdown, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes and either Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit, that's 12 out of the 18 possible feats Regdar can choose, which leaves him free to choose Archery feats, specialize in the chain (6 feats lets you end up with WF, WS, GWF, GWS, Melee Weapon Mastery and either Slashing Flurry or Weapon Supremacy (whichever takes your fancy); alternatively, he could dip 2-3 levels in Exotic Weapon Master and take EW Stunts (such as Trip Attack, Flurry of Strikes and maybe Exotic Reach). To add twice the fun, the weapon could be made of Kaorti Resin and improved by means of the Ancestral Relic feat. To top it off, perhaps make him a Zhentarim Fighter? With Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered, he'll end up with solid CC.

Tordek, on the other hand, could easily try to make Sword & Board useful, though I see him getting Combat Form feats. Between Imp. Shield Bash, Shield Specialization (heavy), Shield Ward, Shield Sling, Shield Charge, Shield Slam and Agile Shield Fighting, alongside a way to pounce, he could work something decent (Pounce + Shield Slam = dazed opponent on a failed save). If he can justify being from Eberron, he could get Mror Stalwart to apply the benefits of certain feats (the WF line and Imp. Critical) to four weapons (battleaxe, warhammer, dwarven waraxe, dwarven urgrosh) and apply the bonus from any used action point to his damage rolls (on a single attack, though). If he gets good Wis, then the best Combat Form feats would involve Combat Awareness and Combat Vigor, for blindsense and decent fast healing for up to 1 minute. Perhaps top it off with Dungeon Crasher and the needed set-up, perhaps with Combat Brute for its Domino Bull Rush ability.

Ember would be hard to optimize, but it'd involve primarily buffing her unarmed strike damage. The first few levels would involve getting her Imp. Natural Attack, keep Stunning Fist, net her Hidden Talent, and replacing Evasion with Invisible Fist. From there, it's either Psionic Fist (of Zuoken), or somehow getting Tashalatora to apply to War Mind (and thus, net that juicy Sweeping Strike). From there, make her a "Queen" of Smack, but getting Fiery Fist and perhaps Fiery Ki Defense/Ki Blast; sure, you get to deal only 1d6 fire damage per use of Stunning Fist, but it applies for all attacks done during the round. If she can get enough Monk levels to matter, Decisive Strike can replace Flurry of Blows and perhaps would set her up for a nice AoO build (with Sweeping Strike, that means you can deal AoO's that affect two adjacent opponents and deal double ALL damage). Since Regdar's the tripper (and fearmonger), she could top it all off with Stand Still and make them unable to move from her pummeling.

Alhandra could easily be an "A-Game Paladin", but she could also easily be an Ubercharger and that'd be it. Ubercharger is pretty easy (Spirited Charge, mostly, and add a Valorous Lance with a wand of Rhino's Rush for quintuple damage on a charge), and a mount that's worthwhile (Griffon?). The "A-Game" Paladin would remove the From Smite to Song feat (Devis already covers, though she can be decent if necessary), and probably shift her allegiance to Mystra or Azuth to become a Mystic Fire Knight (with Sword of the Arcane Order) with...Battle Blessing. Pretty standard fare, though the latter would replace the mount for Divine Spirit. If she can nudge them, she could add one or two Combat Form feats (she has the Wisdom for it, after all) in addition to her Divine feats.

Soveliss...he's going full archer. The iconic dual-wielder is Drizzt, after all, so it's best to focus on what he should be good at. I'd say...Justice of Weald and Woe would be decent, even if its spellcasting is limited; they get the nice arrow-based spells, bonus feats, sneak attack and even Death Attack tacked on for free, and they still get Hide in Plain Sight and the ability to fire in melee without provoking AoO. Since their Ranger spellcasting will be weak, it's fair for them to replace them for the bonus feats, even if it's for the best that they keep one; ditto for the Animal Companion, as Distracting Attack makes for an interesting technique to use. Just for fun, I'd add two levels of Stalker of Kharash and Highland Stalker; the former would add all Evil creatures as favored enemies and the latter would add Skirmish, which with Swift Hunter can be artificially inflated. With so many feats, and qualifying as a 15th level Fighter for purposes of feats (5 from Ranger, since you can't get to any of the PrCs before 5th level, then 10 from Justice of Weald and Woe), you can even afford to spend some points on the WF line for longbows. Top it off with Greater Manyshot and go to town.

Lidda could make for a fun Grenadier build: specialize in splash weapons, high Sneak Attack, a method to bypass the immunity to SA for most creatures (most likely with Use Magic Device), TWF line and the Grenadier feat. Find a way to be invisible for most of the time (or hang with Soveliss!) and net as many dice of Sneak Attack with touch attacks. She could make for an odd Trapmaster build (using the actual Trapmaster class from Dungeonscape) despite the loss of SA damage dice. Her key ability would be to play the environment in her favor, never relying on attacking directly.

Kerwyn, on the other hand...it's hard not to think of Daring Outlaw for him; it fits his character design. Duelist is a trap, Invisible Blade doesn't allow him to use any weapons other than (punching) daggers, and he lacks spellcasting to make an effective Swiftblade. Perhaps if he gets some spellcasting ability and a way to cast Haste as a 3rd level spell without relying on Trapsmith, he could end up going straight into Swiftblade and maybe some Arcane Duelist on the side (or thinking it properly, maybe not). If the requirements could be waived for him, he could make a pretty nice Daring Outlaw. The feat was almost thought for him. Maybe top it off with loads of Luck feats; after all, isn't he one of the exemplars of "a little luck can go a long way"?

Hennet is a pretty bare-bones Sorcerer, and thus he should focus on what Sorcerers do best; much like prufrock mentioned, a Mailman build could be on the works. Focus on a few spells, rather than specialize in many. If it weren't because of the big loss of spellcasting ability, Hennet could make a decent Master Transmogrifist; focus on a few favored forms, and exploit Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange. Aside from that, he might probably draw some benefit from Draconic feats, replace his familiar for a Divine Companion (Complete Champion), think seriously of Domain Access (also from Complete Champion) and maybe a Dragonpact or two (through Pact-Bound Adept).

Mialee has it easy; Elven generalist Wizard, straight into Incantatrix. She can ramp up her flexibility with Wizard of Sun and Moon, thus refusing her 2nd racial substitution level (the one that replaces Wizard 3rd). Oh yeah: did I forget to mention Archmage?

Nebin is our signature Illusionist, so he'll probably be a Gnome Illusionist/Master Specialist (Illusionist)/Shadowcraft Mage. Another pretty simple one. He obviously replaces his familiar for Immediate Magic.

That leaves Naull (what's she supposed to be, anyways?), Ialdabode (the Iconic Psion), Morthos (the Iconic Warlock), Ferno (the Iconic Warmage), and all the other Iconics. The post is becoming uncomfortably long for you (and tedious for me; yes, long posts CAN be tedious!), so I'll cut it for now.

There's a lot of really good ideas in here. I'll try to translate some of them into statblocks complete with possessions sometime in the coming week. THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR AWESOME!

[T.G. Oskar]

Devis was in the 3.0 PHB, Gimble replaced him in 3.5.

I won't lie, the change in art alone gave me intense new respect for the Bard class. Gimble was cool, Devis...

I must confess to not knowing Kerwyn or Eberk though.


They used them in the initial introduction to 3e D&D box sets. They always come with premade characters and they usually like having two of each basic type (fighter, cleric, wizard, and thief) which is why we have two fighters, two wizards, two clerics, and two thieves.

The non most basic character classes were not in that set so they only have one for each of those classes (exception being bard when they made sure to have a gnome being the iconic bard with the favored class change despite the history of bards and half elves).

Kerwyn is located in the section of the PHB containing the deities, the random age, height and weight tables. He's Lidda's male Rogue counterpart, and IIRC, a Human. Eberk is Jozan's dwarven counterpart: a LG cleric of Moradin.

Speaking of Box Sets: how about Dothal, Lanin, Aramil and Carn? Dothal is another Dwarven Cleric of Moradin, and pretty much a repaint of Eberk; Lanin is another Elf Wizard and a (blonde) repaint of Mialee (and oddly enough, doesn't look so bad). Aramil is an Elf Sorcerer, of all people. And Carn is a Human Rogue, but with a frickin' Longbow (better suited as a Ranger, IMO).

If we're to speak of other Iconics, we'd take a lot of time, but Psion also gets two Iconics, both of them oddly Human (Ialdabode as a Telepath and Mitra as a Shaper). PsyWars get two, IIRC; Sandharrow the Half-Giant is one, and a dreadlocks woman with a crystal sword is the other (I think the 3.0 Psionics Handbook has her name, and so does the Epic Level Handbook). Rurik (the Dwarf with the grafted weapon, wielding a shortspear, a crossbow and a weird ponytail alongside a goatee) is either a PsyWar who took Concussion Blast for his Expanded Knowledge, or a Psion who took the Graft Weapon power through Expanded Knowledge; I have no clue whatsoever. Crusaders get Daresa (the Crusader of Pelor) and Miros Xavt (the Crusader of Erythnul that maskerades as one of Heironeous), both human; Swordsages get the halfling Eskelior Deftfoot and Crimson Mask, which is IIRC a half-elf; Warblades get the elf Arzimon and the dwarf Vardalak. While you could chalk up the multiple iconics per class on the XPH as remnants of the old Psionics Handbook, the ones I mention later are from a latter book (Tome of Battle). The Player's Handbook II has also two Iconics for its classes: Beguilers Anastria Nailo (half-elf) and Korrin (gnome); Dragon Shamans Thane (human) and Iskara (dwarf, though she seems to be a ghost); Duskblades Yele (elf) and Hallia Yelebane (half-elf) and Knights Agravail and Sorra (both humans, but of differing moral alignments).

...Did I mention about half of these names I recall from memory? That's just how much work you have placed on you.

P.S.: Fun fact. Have you noticed the Paladin Iconics for both D&D 3.x and Pathfinder seemingly are from Middle Eastern/Egyptian descent? Alhandra definitely seems like an Arab name, and Seelah could easily pass for an Ethiopian or Egyptian in a heartbeat... Just curious, considering that the Paladin is a strictly European concept, but I've seen several instances of Middle Eastern Paladin flavor...

[ngilop]

Here is my thoery on why the paladins look middle eastern

Alhandra is the spanish version of alexandra

And seelah is a form of Sheila

The at one point the spanish pennisula was conqured by muslims and Spain has a big muslim influence on architecture names, and well.. that ked tot eh spanish inquisition. and the name means 'defender' so there youhave a religous tie-in

now seelah im guessing is a play on Selah which is a word used in the hebrew bible (that means rock, or stop and think and is used similar to teh term Amen) and well just take a look at the paladin/cleric spells and i bet you cna see some similarites between some fo the miralces performed there and the spells.


so both of these words are of semi-middle eastern ( probably aramaic) hence why the paladin representations look somewhat middle eastern.

the word paladin is strictly european.. but the concept.. im not too sure about.

[T.G. Oskar]

Here is my thoery on why the paladins look middle eastern

Alhandra is the spanish version of alexandra

And seelah is a form of Sheila

The at one point the spanish pennisula was conqured by muslims and Spain has a big muslim influence on architecture names, and well.. that ked tot eh spanish inquisition. and the name means 'defender' so there youhave a religous tie-in

now seelah im guessing is a play on Selah which is a word used in the hebrew bible (that means rock, or stop and think and is used similar to teh term Amen) and well just take a look at the paladin/cleric spells and i bet you cna see some similarites between some fo the miralces performed there and the spells.


so both of these words are of semi-middle eastern ( probably aramaic) hence why the paladin representations look somewhat middle eastern.

the word paladin is strictly european.. but the concept.. im not too sure about.

Actually...

The Spanish version of Alexandra is...Alejandra. Considering early Spanish and how X can be pronounced as J in specific occasions (note: Mexico/Mejico, Ximena/Jimena, Xerez/Jerez; the latter is the name for brandy IIRC).

Also: you're referring to the Caliphate of Granada, which indeed had strong influence in early Spanish culture. The Spanish Inquisition had little to nothing to do with it: the kingdoms of Castilla, León, Aragón and Navarra, of mostly Iberian, Celt, Frankish and Gaul descent, faced as Christians the Caliphate, who was mostly Islamic (there were some Jews around, though, but they remained on the sidelines). This is the basis of the Reconquista (Reconquest), which ended shortly after the reign of Isabel and Fernando, the Catholic Kings, with the unification of all the Hispanic Peninsula (though Portugal was already well formed). The Inquisition was the result of purging Jewish and Muslim influence.

I mention this because one thing does not lead to the other. You see, the concept of Paladin comes from various sources, but mostly from the Francs and specifically Charlemagne; the Twelve Peers were known as Paladins, as they protected the palace (which is the root of the original word; a paladin was essentially a palace, or palatine guard). The original conception of the Paladin was that of the knight-errant, while the concept of the Cleric was that of the warrior-priest, though some of their fluff was taken from the Templars.

The strange thing is that it's only recently that the perception of the Paladin as less of a "knight-errant" and more of a "champion of the faith", a perception akin to the Crusaders and the military-religious orders of the era (the Knights Templar, the Knights Hospitaller, the Teutonic Order, the Order of St. James, etc.) Thus, I find it ironic.

My suspicion is actually the way the name is written, and the similarities to one of the most famous Muslim military generals and leaders of the era: Salah ad-Din, Sultan of Egypt (also known as Saladin). Considering that Saladin was an exemplar of the chivalric ideal, the very same that's at the core of the Paladin class... That might make slightly more sense. That doesn't mean it's still strange, though.

And, since this deviated the topic a bit: it's too bad that the Dwarven Samurai Iconic never got a name. The Human Hexblade and the Human Swashbuckler got names in the PHB II (Athain and Meara Swiftblade, respectively), but after the build-disguised-as-class attempt with the Samurai, they apparently pulled off a damnatio memoriae on it. It's almost a miracle they remembered the Marshal (though not that much: only an ACF and the ability to advance auras through the Mythic Exemplar, and a few mentions in Dragon Magic regarding how they could get Draconic auras). It's a shame they forgot about the Marshal and, to a lesser extent, the Sohei.