What would a layman expect from a wizard?

[Chronos]

I know all about what a wizard can actually do (mostly, whatever she wants), but what sorts of things would a layman (that is, someone with no ranks in Spellcraft, no spellcasting ability, and no other particular knowledge of wizardry) expect a wizard to be able to do? I'm looking here for general descriptions, not specific spells. For instance, a layman might expect a wizard to be able to blast things with fire, but wouldn't specifically expect the Fireball spell, since they probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Fireball, Flame Strike, or maybe even Produce Flame or Orb of Fire.

So far, what I'm thinking is:
Blast things with fire, cold, or electricity
Turn into monsters
Turn other creatures into things
Summon things
Fly
Teleport

EDIT:
Create constructs/animate objects
Have beards, robes, magic books, staff
Petrification
Paralysis/coma
Put genies into lamps
Bring people back to life
Predict the future
Brew potions
Magical love
Find things
Weather control
Scaring people
Curses (more detail, here?)
Read mysterious languages
Magical locks
Instant cleaning
Conjure objects
Make magic items

[herrhauptmann]

You've got it right there.
It starts to change a bit depending on national/religious bias.

I can give real world examples, but that might violate forum rules.

So instead look at wizards from the Saga of Conan.
Some served demon gods, others sold their souls for power (Thoth Amon). Others were benevolent.
Many could construct vast towers and palaces overnight. To intrude on their territory was to enter a garden of wonders and horrors. (Tower of the Elephant)

[Zanos]

Having strange associates/servants is one. I consider trafficking with outsiders via planar binding and creating constructs to be very "wizardy."

[Slipperychicken]

Wizards have beards and robes . Sometimes they have magic books or a staff.

Wizards can turn you into stone or freeze you in place.

Wizards can make broomsticks and other objects dance, act on their own (like make a violin play itself), and do manual labor like carry buckets of water for them. They can even make the objects talk, or stuff your soul into one.

Wizards can put magic genies into bottles and lamps.

Wizards can bring people back to life.

Wizards can predict the future.

Wizards can see stuff remotely through a crystal ball.

Wizards can brew magic potions.

Wizards can make your crush love you back (until the magic is broken, of course).

Wizards can put you into a magical coma.

Wizards can sometimes talk to animals or turn into animals themselves.

Wizards can give you a brain, heart, and courage.

Wizards can take you back to Kansas.

If a wizard turns you into something, getting kissed by royalty will usually tirn you back.

[Red Fel]

Consider this. The average layman - the true average, by whom I mean the average commoner, the salt of the earth, the common clay of Faerun/Greyhawk/Ravenloft/etc. You know, morons. I look at them and I think, "What do they think a Wizard can do?" And the answer that comes to me is, "Look at these people. They farm dirt. They don't think big. Big for them means having an exceptionally large dirt farm, or maybe a house with four or five rooms. Their families have lived in Tinyville for seven generations, and they aren't going to leave. They don't have imagination. If they were disposed to do anything else with their lives, they would be adventurers. So what do they want in life?"

And I think of Harry Dresden, the only Professional Wizard in the phone book. And I think, "What do people usually hire Dresden to do?" And I have my answer.

"Oi, Wizzy, my Fluffy's gone missing. Can you find 'er?" "Hey, my crops are dying. Can you make it rain or something?" "Tim from down the dirt road's been a royal prig for a month. Can you conjure up somethin'll scare him outta his wits?" "Yo, can you make me a love potion?"And so forth. These people aren't going to be asking for big things, like teleportation or towers or time travel. A particularly clever one might ask for flight. They would expect that a Wizard can "do stuff," without much regard for what a Wizard is actually able to do, and would make requests according to what they want or perceive as valuable.

[Uncle Pine]

It really depends on the setting you are playing in. In a very low-magic setting the average Joe could be unaware that magic even exist. However, in a setting like Ravenloft ordinary people tend to expect all sorts of nastyness from magic users: fireballs, magical bursts, diabolical summonings etcetera. Do note that without Spellcraft ranks, if you see someone hurling a fireball you still see the fireball: you just don't know that he casted a fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) spell. Similarly, a meteor swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm) would simply be "four big fireballs". In a high-magic setting, you can expect people to know that powerful wizards can do pretty much whatever they feel like.
Anyway, people which had an (un)fortunate encounter with a wizard may have their own ideas about what a wizard can and can't do even if they don't have any Spellcraft rank.

[Eldariel]

Do fairy tales exist in this settings? If so, and assuming Wizards are actually really rare and most people never either meet one, or realize they've met one, I'd assume pretty much that; changing people into stuff, changing themselves into stuff (that's what like 50% of Grimm's witches/wizards/warlocks/whatever do), curse things, know things no human should know (of course, they don't know whether this knowledge is gained through magic or is intrinsic to magic-users; indeed, they probably don't even know whether magic-users are actually members of the race they appear or somethign totally different), and sometimes fly/teleport/the like.

Most prototypical spells I can think of from fairy tales are shapechanging targeted to self or others & curses/changing other magic (anti-curses and the like). I can't say I've ever read of somebody evoking energies; summon a storm and a lightning bolt from a stormcloud, perhaps, but evocation is a foreign concept to me outside D&D fiction. Gandalf did it like twice (once in the Battle of the Five Armies and once when he fired the ray of light at a Nazgûl), but even he is just changing stuff most of the time (acorns into burning acorns, the great goblin nonsense, etc.) and he even goes on-record to say he cannot make a blaze out of nothing to melt the snows of Caradhras. Polymorph Any Object is pretty much the one thing in D&D that does like 90% of what magic does in fairy tales.

[Drachasor]

Basically this revolves around what a successful untrained knowledge(arcana) check provides. So whatever qualifies as answering "really easy questions" in the given setting.

That might cover something as advanced as the 8 schools of magic and what they cover. I doubt anything more advanced than that.

[Zombulian]

Consider this. The average layman - the true average, by whom I mean the average commoner, the salt of the earth, the common clay of Faerun/Greyhawk/Ravenloft/etc. You know, morons. I look at them and I think, "What do they think a Wizard can do?" And the answer that comes to me is, "Look at these people. They farm dirt. They don't think big. Big for them means having an exceptionally large dirt farm, or maybe a house with four or five rooms. Their families have lived in Tinyville for seven generations, and they aren't going to leave. They don't have imagination. If they were disposed to do anything else with their lives, they would be adventurers. So what do they want in life?"

And I think of Harry Dresden, the only Professional Wizard in the phone book. And I think, "What do people usually hire Dresden to do?" And I have my answer.

"Oi, Wizzy, my Fluffy's gone missing. Can you find 'er?" "Hey, my crops are dying. Can you make it rain or something?" "Tim from down the dirt road's been a royal prig for a month. Can you conjure up somethin'll scare him outta his wits?" "Yo, can you make me a love potion?"And so forth. These people aren't going to be asking for big things, like teleportation or towers or time travel. A particularly clever one might ask for flight. They would expect that a Wizard can "do stuff," without much regard for what a Wizard is actually able to do, and would make requests according to what they want or perceive as valuable.

This one. An expert may have more imagination, but Commoner tends to imply some seriously unimaginative, unintelligent, hillfolk.

[Emperor Tippy]

"They can do things man."
"Like what?"
"Who's knows? Just things. Remember when those three adventurers passed through town a few months back?"
"Yeah man. What about it?"
"Well Bobby Joe over at the bar said that one of them dudes was a wizard and he did all kinds of things."
"Yeah? Like what?"
"Well know that book that the Sheriff found on that goblin that tried to attack the town about a year back, the one that no one, even the Elders, could read? Well one of the Elders asked the wizard if he could read it and after waving his hand and mumbling a few words he just picked it up and read it."
"That's kinda cool but not really all that impressive, what else did he do?"
"Well he made the door of the room that they rented have some giant glowing symbol on it and no one could open it while it was there. And when Jana accidentally spilled ale on Mike the wizard just waved a hand and Mike was clean again, he said it was actually the cleanest he had ever felt. And then there was the barfight that started, a little waving and chanting and he had the whole bar passed out cold. So things man."

----
To answer your question OP, pretty much whatever you as the DM need/want/think would be funny at the time.

[Phelix-Mu]

Consider this. The average layman - the true average, by whom I mean the average commoner, the salt of the earth, the common clay of Faerun/Greyhawk/Ravenloft/etc. You know, morons. I look at them and I think, "What do they think a Wizard can do?" And the answer that comes to me is, "Look at these people. They farm dirt. They don't think big. Big for them means having an exceptionally large dirt farm, or maybe a house with four or five rooms. Their families have lived in Tinyville for seven generations, and they aren't going to leave. They don't have imagination. If they were disposed to do anything else with their lives, they would be adventurers. So what do they want in life?"

And I think of Harry Dresden, the only Professional Wizard in the phone book. And I think, "What do people usually hire Dresden to do?" And I have my answer.

"Oi, Wizzy, my Fluffy's gone missing. Can you find 'er?" "Hey, my crops are dying. Can you make it rain or something?" "Tim from down the dirt road's been a royal prig for a month. Can you conjure up somethin'll scare him outta his wits?" "Yo, can you make me a love potion?"And so forth. These people aren't going to be asking for big things, like teleportation or towers or time travel. A particularly clever one might ask for flight. They would expect that a Wizard can "do stuff," without much regard for what a Wizard is actually able to do, and would make requests according to what they want or perceive as valuable.


This one. An expert may have more imagination, but Commoner tends to imply some seriously unimaginative, unintelligent, hillfolk.

I appreciate the sentiment, and actually think that these answers are probably fairly accurate on a population-wide scale.

The part that miffs me a bit is that no where does it say

a.) Commoners can't have imagination.
b.) There are no smart Commoners.
c.) Commoners conform to some kind of stereotype any more than the unnamed masses of any major race all fall into some kind of comical paradigm.

So, if normal people in your world really are just Farmer Jo and his cousins, that's fine; or maybe you just have a lot more Experts. But, in the descriptions of the races given in the PHB, they seem to indicate rather more variety among the unskilled populace.

And, even if I'm not at all supported by the rules, I find it rather elitist to frame a campaign as "the party, the named npcs, and all those red shirts over there." The PCs are special. But they aren't the monopoly on special.

No offense meant, of course. I may sound confrontational on this point, but only because it rubbed me the wrong way. I'm sure there's room for friendly disagreement on how much color to add to the extras in a campaign.

[Slipperychicken]

Basically this revolves around what a successful untrained knowledge(arcana) check provides. So whatever qualifies as answering "really easy questions" in the given setting.

That might cover something as advanced as the 8 schools of magic and what they cover. I doubt anything more advanced than that.

I'd say that "What sort of things can a Wizard do?" would qualify as "really easy" (DC 10, can be done untrained), as would knowing the absolute bare minimum about a given school of magic (conjuration = make stuff?, Evocation = burn stuff, etc). Failing the check would probably make you confuse one school for the other ("Wait... Evocation is the one which summons stuff, right?"), misname a school (transmogrification, burnination, reanimation, etc), or assume that wizards can do things which are downright ludicrous like conjure mountains of gold and kill whole cities with a snap of their fingers.

Of course, normal people would have ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft, just like they have ranks in Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), and Knowledge (Religion). Everyone wouldn't be an expert in magic, but enough people would have ranks that if a town needed to get everyone together to figure something out, they could reliably get the right answer.

[Eldest]

I'd say that "What sort of things can a Wizard do?" would qualify as "really easy" (DC 10, can be done untrained), as would knowing the absolute bare minimum about a given school of magic (conjuration = make stuff?, Evocation = burn stuff, etc). Failing the check would probably make you confuse one school for the other ("Wait... Evocation is the one which summons stuff, right?"), misname a school (transmogrification, burnination, reanimation, etc), or assume that wizards can do things which are downright ludicrous like conjure mountains of gold and kill whole cities with a snap of their fingers.

But... they *can* do that.

[Slipperychicken]

But... they *can* do that.

I mean without preparation or even thinking about it. Not some multi-step TO trick, or 24 hour casting-time spell, or horde of wish-granting angels. Like a wizard could just be sitting there all alone and say "ABRA KADABRA GOLD MOUNTAIN B****ES WOOO" and suddenly a literal mountain of gold appears.

[Red Fel]

I appreciate the sentiment, and actually think that these answers are probably fairly accurate on a population-wide scale.

The part that miffs me a bit is that no where does it say

a.) Commoners can't have imagination.
b.) There are no smart Commoners.
c.) Commoners conform to some kind of stereotype any more than the unnamed masses of any major race all fall into some kind of comical paradigm.

So, if normal people in your world really are just Farmer Jo and his cousins, that's fine; or maybe you just have a lot more Experts. But, in the descriptions of the races given in the PHB, they seem to indicate rather more variety among the unskilled populace.

And, even if I'm not at all supported by the rules, I find it rather elitist to frame a campaign as "the party, the named npcs, and all those red shirts over there." The PCs are special. But they aren't the monopoly on special.

No offense meant, of course. I may sound confrontational on this point, but only because it rubbed me the wrong way. I'm sure there's room for friendly disagreement on how much color to add to the extras in a campaign.

First off, I readily acknowledge that different campaigns play their villagers differently. I don't mean to say that every townsman is a dumb-as-dirt hick with no greater dream than marrying the girl he grew up next door from, farming his cabbages, and building a nice two-room house for their seventeen kids. In fact, my original post was intended to be mildly satirical in its tone (hence the Blazing Saddles quote).

But here's the thing. Even ignoring the pseudo-scientific arguments about people perceiving the world through a cultural lens which in turn is framed by personal experience, a Commoner with imagination and drive almost immediately ceases to be a Commoner. A Commoner with creativity, intelligence, or a desire to do things starts taking NPC classes, like Warrior or Expert. He starts learning and growing. By definition, a Commoner has none of this - he simply wakes up, works, eats, and sleeps. His most substantive thought in life is how he will wake up, work, eat, and sleep next year. As soon as he starts thinking bigger things, he stops being a Commoner.

It's almost automatic. Say a Commoner starts wondering about colors and images. He saves up some money from his farm, buys a canvas and some paint, and gets to work painting. He is now an Expert. Commoner no more. Alternatively, say he starts admiring the stars in the sky, and wants to learn more about the shapes they make. Bam, Expert. Say he sees some adventurers pass through town, and in inspired to practice his skills with his hatchet. Bam, Warrior. And so forth. As soon as the Commoner decides to do more with his life, he ceases to be one. Commoners are practically defined by their utter lack of ambition.

I'm not saying all NPCs are dumb as bricks. Far from it. Nor am I saying that no NPCs can have class levels, since that is demonstrably false. Rather, I'm suggesting that a Commoner specifically, as opposed to any other layman, would lack the desire or ability to give great thought to great thoughts. This isn't a result of them being Commoners, but rather a cause.

[MonochromeTiger]

I mean without preparation or even thinking about it. Not some multi-step TO trick, or 24 hour casting-time spell, or horde of wish-granting angels. Like a wizard could just be sitting there all alone and say "ABRA KADABRA GOLD MOUNTAIN B****ES WOOO" and suddenly a literal mountain of gold appears.

gotta agree with slipperychicken here, well, depending on the area you're in and how common magic is anyway. if there isn't much in the way of widespread understanding of magic (example: maybe 1% of population is magically gifted or trained) then those without will quite often overestimate it and its wielders, they will think them capable of ANYTHING because they don't know that it's not true...then again sometimes it is true if you get the wizard up to epic levels.

that said in a setting where magic is more common the misunderstanding may still be there but it would be toned down a bit unless the magic users went out of their way to keep that level of fear/respect alive.

[Phelix-Mu]

From the DMG under "Commoner":

The common folk farm the fields, staff the shops, build the homes,
and produce the goods in the world around the adventurers. Commoners
usually have no desire to live the dangerous life of an
adventurer and none of the skills needed to undertake the challenges
adventurers must face. Commoners are skilled in their own
vocations and make up the majority of the population.
Commoners make poor adventurers. This class should be
reserved for everyone who does not qualify for any other class.

I just disagree with the fact that most people are somehow doomed to do nothing productive with their lives, which sounded like what was being said. They lack the ambition to be adventurers and do dangerous stuff. Not the ambition to do anything.

Anyway, this is veering off-topic. I think that most people, unless they actually know or have seen a spellcaster, will probably rely on rumour and legend for their knowledge of what they can do. This will end up being significantly worse, I think, than an untrained Knowledge(arcana) check.

Apologies for missing the implied satirical tone.

[NotScaryBats]

I think making magical items is a really important part of "what can a wizard do" that the people in a D&D world would know / expect.

After all, most modules and stuff have magical things as loot given to the players from thankful villagers, so, the mayor might have a Longsword +1 as a family heirloom, passed down for generations, and I think it would be common knowledge that a long time ago, a wizard was the one who made that.

We should also define if "a wizard" means even "an arcane spellcaster" "a spellcaster" or "a wizard class" or what. Is the local Adept 1 "a wizard?" What about the strange druid in the woods? Clerics? Depending on the setting, the answer may be different, but it is certainly something to consider.

[Emperor Tippy]

I mean without preparation or even thinking about it. Not some multi-step TO trick, or 24 hour casting-time spell, or horde of wish-granting angels. Like a wizard could just be sitting there all alone and say "ABRA KADABRA GOLD MOUNTAIN B****ES WOOO" and suddenly a literal mountain of gold appears.

They can do that. Total time elapsed from a standing start to do it is twelve to eighteen seconds and uses only one non core source and costs only a single spell slot.

And instead of a mountain of gold (which you can get if you want), you can get an entire moon sized, floating in geosynchronous orbit, city of diamond. Or turn the moon into Coruscant.

[Ansem]

See if it's possible to create an AMF grenade (throwable bottle that activates on impact?), as magic is not rare in most worlds I'd say a good layman has knowledge of it and knows how to counter it. Same way it could blind a ranged fighter with a flash or entangle a melee fighter.

[herrhauptmann]

See if it's possible to create an AMF grenade (throwable bottle that activates on impact?), as magic is not rare in most worlds I'd say a good layman has knowledge of it and knows how to counter it. Same way it could blind a ranged fighter with a flash or entangle a melee fighter.

Well the AMF arrow requires a specific prc to craft/imbue.

[Emperor Tippy]

See if it's possible to create an AMF grenade (throwable bottle that activates on impact?), as magic is not rare in most worlds I'd say a good layman has knowledge of it and knows how to counter it. Same way it could blind a ranged fighter with a flash or entangle a melee fighter.

To create an AMF "grenade" under the rules as written involves multiple 9th level spells and multiple tricks that generally get people screaming TO at you.

At least to make a remotely decent one.

Even the crappiest ones require multiple feats, access to 6th level spells, a CL of 14, and well in excess of 3,000 XP. These are also mostly one use items, each with a price tag of in excess of 20,000 GP.

[Eldariel]

Grenades detonate on impact. AMF grenade would just suppress magic for a fraction of a second and restore it. Dispel Magic would be much more efficient but of course quite likely to fail to do anything. Now, AMF arrows or permanent AMF emanation off an item or such could work but it's really not easy anymore.

[Slipperychicken]

They can do that. Total time elapsed from a standing start to do it is twelve to eighteen seconds and uses only one non core source and costs only a single spell slot.


Feel like telling me how that one goes? I'm not in the mood for puzzles today.

[Emperor Tippy]

Feel like telling me how that one goes? I'm not in the mood for puzzles today.

Shapechange to Zodar, Wish up a scroll of Wish which includes the material component for Fabricate for whatever it is you want (in this case a mountain of gold) and at a CL high enough to get get you what you want, if the CL is too high for you to cast then Shapechange to Lilitu form and use Item Use to activate your scroll.

My bad, it takes two non core books if you want a "mountain" larger than 20 or so cubic feet.

[Chronos]

Wow, this thread took off faster than I expected. To be clear, I mean in a standard D&D world, where wizards, including high-level ones, exist, but where most folks aren't too clear on the differences between them and other magical classes. And I'm not concerned with the source of their power, or what people think that source is, just what they can do with it.

[Chronos]

OK, looking through the replies, I'm adding the following to the list (some things are lumped together):

Create constructs/animate objects
Have beards, robes, magic books, staff
Petrification
Paralysis/coma
Put genies into lamps
Bring people back to life
Predict the future
Brew potions
Magical love
Find things
Weather control
Scaring people
Curses (more detail, here?)
Read mysterious languages
Magical locks
Instant cleaning
Conjure objects
Make magic items

Any I've missed so far?

[Eldariel]

Curses; well, I was talking about fairy tales (under the assumption that whatever fantasy world we're talking about also has fairy tales much like our own with the exception that they're even more-so based on actual events). Curse somebody to eternal slumber, curse somebody to die if a condition is met, curse somebody to lose a sense/whatever, curse somebody to become hideous unless/when a condition is met, curse somebody to be forced to come to some place over and over again, cause someone to have bad luck at a specific point/for a duration/until something happens, etc.

Curses are all over fairy tales (and folklore) in varied guises. Usually, what they have in common is that they're done with malicious intent (or to make somebody pay for what they have committed) to cause something to either happen (think e.g. Sleeping Beauty) or end with a specific trigger (think e.g. Frog Prince). Some curses also include guarantee that the trigger will be met (and some triggers, such as coming of certain age, are of course more or less unavoidable outside the final solution).

[Emperor Tippy]

Wow, this thread took off faster than I expected. To be clear, I mean in a standard D&D world, where wizards, including high-level ones, exist, but where most folks aren't too clear on the differences between them and other magical classes. And I'm not concerned with the source of their power, or what people think that source is, just what they can do with it.

Pretty much what I said, things.

Magic users are scary, mysterious, individuals who can do stuff. What all that stuff is, is pretty much a crapshoot as far as the common people are concerned.

Maybe he can fly all day and shoot acidballs all day that are so powerful they instantly liqueify those that they hit (a warlock), maybe he can know everything within a day or so at worst (a divination focused caster), maybe he can bend the will of anyone he meets (enchantment focused Sorcerer), maybe he can call up and bind entire demonic legions, maybe he can turn into a bear/bird/elemental/dragon/giant robot and rip your face off, maybe he can make it snow across your entire nation for the next year straight.

Now whether or not any given wizard can do any, all, some, most, or none of that is a total unknown to the common person. One wizard might always run around with persistent detect thoughts up with the save DC boosted to the point where only a natural 20 will work and just know what people are thinking, or be a mindbender with Mindsight and be able to know when anyone is around, talk in their minds, and tell you how intelligent they are. Another one might really be a Factotum 11/ Focused Specalist Evoker Wizard 9 who does nothing but shoot fireballs and can pretty much blow up an entire army in six seconds.

So as far as the common people are concerned it's "things". Unpredictable, incredibly powerful (even a CL 5 Fireball will, most of the time, kill every commoner within the AoE), unknowable, things.

Limits might or might not actually exist but what they are (even in general terms) is the province of learned scholars and sages (how many commoners do you think can tell the difference between a cleric, bard, wizard, sorcerer, Truenamer, Psion, and Warlock with anything approaching reliability).

[Phelix-Mu]

So, I figure it's time that I actually try to be helpful.:smallwink:

My take on this is that you can gauge it largely by the source of info that Mr. Layman has.

1.) Religion: Well, religions vary, don't they, but many religions proscribe dabbling in magic for the common man, because many religions recognize that it is a very dangerous influence/resource if used unwisely. Game mechanics don't necessarily back this up (there is no way to be "bad at magic..." you either are smart/wise enough to use it or you aren't, and using it for evil is another matter entirely). But it's a classic divine v arcane thing that is largely just ported in from irl historical rivalries between organized religions (divine) and folk religions (which were largely portrayed as being more like witchcraft...even though that was also tied to religion). The porting of this irl stuff is incomplete and largely nonsensical, but it continues to show up in the fluff.

2.) Rumour/Myth: Some places will rely largely on folklore and rumour. These are likely distorted by passage of time and exaggeration, but there are arbitrarily accurate bits here and there that survive the retelling. I'd advise things like
a.) Can talk to animals.
b.) Can see in the dark.
c.) Knows the future.
d.) Can charm/addle the mind with silver words.
These aren't based in accurate observation, but are definitely things that stand out in the common mind. The first is simply a perversion of the observation of the interaction between the wizard and the familiar, the others are largely just the kinds of things that make for good storytelling and are icons of the supernatural. Some other good suggestions in this vein were given above.

3.) Actual Witness/Knowledge of Arcanists: Again, likely down to observations and prone to misconceptions.
a.) At will command of the elements.
b.) Able to rob others of free will or twist their minds.
c.) Ability to appear suddenly and leave suddenly.
d.) Ability to cloak themselves in the shapes of animals and beasts.
e.) Unnatural congress with demons/angels (most people, even those that understand the concept of summoning, will still find iconic outsiders to represent the extremes of reality, and thus will tend to have a poor opinion of those interacting with them).
f.) The ability to see the future and alter it's outcome. This may easily be misconstrued as the ability to travel through time.

At extreme disparities of contact/knowledge and level, Laymen may well view wizards as gods. Certainly, some of the things Tippy comes up with blow my mind, and I'm a wizard/druid/AH. Think of what some islander from the hinterland would believe!

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Fireworks
Punctuality
The Conjuring of Cheap Tricks
Turning People into Unnatural Things

[Chronos]

Let me rephrase: What I'm looking for is things of which someone might say "Wait, what do you mean you can't do X? You're a wizard!".

And I'm not necessarily just talking about common-clay-of-the-new-west commoners-- I'm also thinking of mundane adventurers and the like.

[Duke of Urrel]

The part that miffs me a bit is that no where does it say

a.) Commoners can't have imagination.
b.) There are no smart Commoners.
c.) Commoners conform to some kind of stereotype any more than the unnamed masses of any major race all fall into some kind of comical paradigm.


But here's the thing. Even ignoring the pseudo-scientific arguments about people perceiving the world through a cultural lens which in turn is framed by personal experience, a Commoner with imagination and drive almost immediately ceases to be a Commoner. A Commoner with creativity, intelligence, or a desire to do things starts taking NPC classes, like Warrior or Expert.

I treat the commoner class in much the same way as Red Fel does. In fact, in worlds that I govern as a DM, all commoners have average abilities. I don't treat all rural folk as commoners and all urban folk as experts; rather, I consider most people in both places to be commoners, but the few who are born with elite abilities become experts – or PCs. (Since experts sometimes move out of the rural areas where they are born to seek their fortune in urban areas, more of them can be found here than out in the country.) This doesn't mean that all commoners are dumb, but since I give them only average abilities, a mentally bright commoner will have weaker physical abilities, whereas a physically strong commoner will be duller mentally.

Consequently, and because their small allotment of skill points requires them to do so, commoners will tend to specialize as much as they can to make a good living. Commoners might be extremely good at their specialty (packing lots of skill ranks in a single Profession or Craft), but apart from a few rare exceptions, they won't go dabbling in Knowledge of Arcana just for the heck of it. Most commoners don't have the leisure time for that, anyway. Moreover, Knowledge of Arcana is a cross-class skill for commoners (though no skill is a cross-class skill for experts). So we can confidently conclude that most commoners know very little about wizards, and they may imagine they know things that are simply mistaken.

I also believe commoners know more about divine magic than arcane magic, because I think them more likely to be religious and more likely to interact with clerics and druids, particularly if the latter are Good and feel it is their duty to help the less fortunate. A few nature-oriented clerics, and surely most druids, favor rural areas over urban ones, and the farming or pastoral landfolk who live nearby are likely to be familiar with them.

Wizards, in contrast (and in contrast to more gregarious arcane spellcasters, such as bards), keep more to themselves, because even Good ones don't necessarily feel that they have a duty to interact much with the masses. On the contrary, wizards are more likely to immerse themselves in private research, well hidden from the public eye – even if what they do is for the common good (or if they imagine that it is). Wizards also generally require more wealth (i.e., more expensive material components) to sustain their activities than divine spellcasters do (because the latter can often just gesture with their divine symbols instead). So wizards will tend to reside in richer, more populous urban areas with well-stocked libraries and magic shops, which will make them less well known in the surrounding countryside. Because of this, the urban poor – who in my understanding are all commoners, while the wealthier burghers are experts – probably know quite a bit more about wizards than the rural poor do.

One more point. Ignorance breeds fear and distrust, which in turn sustains or even deepens ignorance. I think many commoners have a strong fear of wizards and other arcane spellcasters. They may believe that most wizards are Evil necromancers, a threat to the common good, and best avoided as much as possible. Commoners may prefer to place their trust in their local non-magical aristocrats and warriors, as well as in practitioners of divine magic, simply because they are more familiar with them and therefore less fearful. Consider this, too: Clerics nearly always advertise their alignment, and Good ones are generally well-known and well-liked, especially among the poor. Wizards are more secretive, about their alignment and everything else; therefore, they are less trusted and more feared.

At best, the commonfolk may know about a local wizard who they think is okay, but fear all the foreign ones. For example, if the local wizard is an abjurer, people may think that all Good wizards are abjurers. On the other hand, if a rumor circulates about some enchanter doing great harm somewhere, the locals may imagine that all enchanters are Evil. There are many kinds of ignorance, and they will change from place to place.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm preeeeeetty sure that the average commoner sees wizards as either talented pinball players or autistic video game savants.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm preeeeeetty sure that the average commoner sees wizards as either talented pinball players or autistic video game savants.

Now, this I like.

[MonochromeTiger]

I'm preeeeeetty sure that the average commoner sees wizards as either talented pinball players or autistic video game savants.

now we just need someone to stat up an arcane power glove (it really was bad, just not the way they meant).

[Red Fel]

I'm preeeeeetty sure that the average commoner sees wizards as either talented pinball players or autistic video game savants.

There has to be a twist!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I honestly wouldn't expect lay people to expect much of anything out of wizards except strange and mysterious behavior and -maybe- that they would have dealings with strange creatures. The rest would be a subjective mish-mash of the things they can but don't necessarily do that would vary wildly depending on who you ask.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm preeeeeetty sure that the average commoner sees wizards as either talented pinball players or autistic video game savants.

Except that autistic kids can't shoot fire out of their hands. Or mind-control people.

[Malroth]

You obviously don't know the same autistic people i do

[AMFV]

Except that autistic kids can't shoot fire out of their hands. Or mind-control people.

Dude, don't make us explain the joke... That would probably ruin it. But in any case since I'm nice here is the spoilered explanation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wizard_%28film%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinball_wizard

[(Un)Inspired]

I was about to post links for those but I'm busy stating up a power glove.

[Angelalex242]

I'd say the average commoner can tell a wizard from a cleric.

The guy with stars and moons on his hat and robes looks a whole lot different then the guy in full plate armor with a warhammer strapped to his belt and a holy symbol around his neck shouting 'prepare ye the way of my god!' Also, even the village idiot knows that if he goes to the local temple, he'll probably find a cleric.

They'd have significantly more trouble telling Paladins from Clerics, unless they happen to know paladins have swords and clerics have hammers. Unless the cleric's got the war domain, then all bets are off.

It's easy to figure out who the Druid is too. He's the guy running around in leathers or hide with a scimitar and a bunch of animals following him around telling people to hug trees and be kind to animals.

[AMFV]

I'd say the average commoner can tell a wizard from a cleric.

The guy with stars and moons on his hat and robes looks a whole lot different then the guy in full plate armor with a warhammer strapped to his belt and a holy symbol around his neck shouting 'prepare ye the way of my god!' Also, even the village idiot knows that if he goes to the local temple, he'll probably find a cleric.

Which is why wizards take pains to not look like Wizards, it's kind of a liability to be targeted first in combat if you have d4 hit dice.


They'd have significantly more trouble telling Paladins from Clerics, unless they happen to know paladins have swords and clerics have hammers. Unless the cleric's got the war domain, then all bets are off.

Or the Cleric is an Elf, or the Sword is Ceremonial. Or the Paladin wields a greathammer, or a mace. If they have knowledge religion they might be able to identify by religious order, but otherwise it'd be hard.


It's easy to figure out who the Druid is too. He's the guy running around in leathers or hide with a scimitar and a bunch of animals following him around telling people to hug trees and be kind to animals.

Druids can be evil... Very very evil, so I would say that's not always true, also it behooves the druid to spend most of his time in town as a small animal, good for hiding or escaping, which is extremely convenient.

[Angelalex242]

That's why most people in towns who have a druid in the area are VERY kind to animals. Ya never know when the animal you were nice to was the druid, who might bless your crops if he's having a good day.

On the other hand, if you kick the dog, and the dog was the druid, or the druid sees you kick the dog, well, hope your will's filled out...

"Yeah, the last guy who kicked a dog ended up entangled in a forest with honey dumped all over him, naked, next to a fire ant hill..."

[Slipperychicken]

Druids can be evil... Very very evil, so I would say that's not always true, also it behooves the druid to spend most of his time in town as a small animal, good for hiding or escaping, which is extremely convenient.

Evil druids are the ones who turn into bears and maul people when they don't stop forest fires.

[Angelalex242]

Druid in bear form:Only YOU can prevent forest fires.

Idiot Kid starts Forest Fire anyway.

Druid in bear form with natural spell feat: Creatures unfit to live must be removed from the gene pool.

RIP Idiot Kid

[awa]

okay i have to ask why bother shape changing into a zodar? It can cast wish but if you can shape-change so can you. Is it just to bypass xp costs?

[Emperor Tippy]

okay i have to ask why bother shape changing into a zodar? It can cast wish but if you can shape-change so can you. Is it just to bypass xp costs?

Bypasses the XP cost for a scroll expensive enough that even spending all the XP from level 20 to level 21 on it isn't enough. And then lets you cast your CL one hundred trillion scroll.

The only other way to manage it is as a wizard is with a Cosmic Descryer 7 casting a normal wish at whatever CL he wants, although you better cast Hide Life first if you want to survive the experience.

The best way to do it for smaller stuff is with a Psion who has Soul Crystal and Fabricate (the spell, not Psionic Fabricate) as powers known. You spend 2 PP more to ignore the material component and use the Soul Crystal to drop the manifesting time down to a standard action regardless of how big an object you are fabricating. This does, however, limit you to your ML cubic feet of gold (or other minerals) per use.

[awa]

i had forgotten you needed to pay the xp cost of upgraded magic items. Okay now it make sense