Maxmize Spell: Reincarnate aka Best Worst Idea

[EyethatBinds]

The rules state that you can make any spell with variable numeric effects Maximized. By these rules you can do this to teleport spells to always have a teleport mishap, and more terrifyingly you can get reincarnate to be GM's choice every single time.

So, if you were insane you could use this to turn every person in the party into ridiculous creatures. All it requires is a lost level and a weird 13th level druid. Is this the best idea, worst idea, or yes?

[Corinath]

This shall be the true meaning of "Chaos Shuffle"

[MonochromeTiger]

The rules state that you can make any spell with variable numeric effects Maximized. By these rules you can do this to teleport spells to always have a teleport mishap, and more terrifyingly you can get reincarnate to be GM's choice every single time.

So, if you were insane you could use this to turn every person in the party into ridiculous creatures. All it requires is a lost level and a weird 13th level druid. Is this the best idea, worst idea, or yes?

it depends entirely on the players' relationship with the DM. for some, such as my usual group, if one of my druid characters uses reincarnate I have an agreement with the DM that he can choose the result regardless, he USUALLY avoids messing with people too much unless they agree (except the one time he brought a fighter back as a gnome who immediately got pounced and eaten by the group...gnomes are a delicacy in that setting stop looking at me like that.)

other times a DM might abuse it a bit to get out their frustration on a player without spiting the rest of the group. RPing a tough guy orc? well DM says you're now a female halfling. got a character whose combat abilities rely on multiple limbs or a tail or wings? NOT ANYMORE!

so yeah. it can be interesting (and is definitely a fun challenge for roleplayers) but you should check with your DM before giving them absolute power over your dead PC friends.

[zilonox]

So, an empowered, maximized reincarnate spell would result in ??? :smalleek:

[SethoMarkus]

I'm no RAW expert, but I believe "variable numeric effects" refers to numeric effects only, while the reincarnation %ile table only uses numbers for convenience (the Race is the result, not the number).

This discussion seems to agree: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4532.0

[EyethatBinds]

This discussion seems to agree: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4532.0

I've heard this argument, and it's pretty shaky reasoning. "The roll of the d% die is not an effect of the spell." Sure the table is just there for convenience, but the point of the spell is to randomly shuffle the creature's race, which means there must be an element of random chance represented by the dice.

It does fall to interpretation, but I'd say that you can maximize in the same regard you can max Awaken. It doesn't really break the game after all, it's GM's Choice.

Just somewhat funny to think about.

[Drachasor]

I've heard this argument, and it's pretty shaky reasoning. "The roll of the d% die is not an effect of the spell." Sure the table is just there for convenience, but the point of the spell is to randomly shuffle the creature's race, which means there must be an element of random chance represented by the dice.

It does fall to interpretation, but I'd say that you can maximize in the same regard you can max Awaken. It doesn't really break the game after all, it's GM's Choice.

Just somewhat funny to think about.

Maxing Awaken is rules-legal because the ability scores are an EFFECT of the spell. The percentage roll is NOT an effect of reincarnation. The effect is the race/species, and that effect is NOT numeric.

So if you don't like the "effect" reasoning, then you should at least recognize the end-result is a race, not a number.

It is funny to think about though.

[SethoMarkus]

Maxing Awaken is rules-legal because the ability scores are an EFFECT of the spell. The percentage roll is NOT an effect of reincarnation. The effect is the race/species, and that effect is NOT numeric.

So if you don't like the "effect" reasoning, then you should at least recognize the end-result is a race, not a number.

It is funny to think about though.

Exactly this.

The races could be represented by 100 little icons on a die; it has no numeric in-game mechanical effect. When you roll for damage with a Fireball spell, the numeric value has mechanical weight- it is how much damage the opponent takes. When you roll for a random effect, such as race with Reincarnate, mishap with Teleport, or elemental type/effect with Prismatic Spray, the number is just short hand so that you don't need to buy more funny dice.

Again, it is up to each DM how they want to rule it. Rule-of-Cool, I think it would be pretty nifty to run it this way. However, I don't believe this is how the metamagic feat was intended, and I don't believe that RAW supports this interpretation.

Anyway, that's my opinion. YMMV

[atomicwaffle]

if any players are being *TOO* annoying our DM turns them into Manta Rays until they learn their lesson.

[Mountain]

This is totally dependent upon your DM. My DM was always the kind that would twist every wish until your character was totally ruined, and everything with "DM's discretion" anywhere in the description always had the absolute worst possible result, or it just never worked.

Reincarnate was used in one of our campaigns when the DM said no raise dead/resurrection, and of course he always picked the new form. When the rogue died, the DM flipped through books until he found something with a big DEX penalty. When the party face died, he came back as a troglodyte.

We don't use that spell anymore.

[Reinkai]

This is totally dependent upon your DM. My DM was always the kind that would twist every wish until your character was totally ruined, and everything with "DM's discretion" anywhere in the description always had the absolute worst possible result, or it just never worked.

Reincarnate was used in one of our campaigns when the DM said no raise dead/resurrection, and of course he always picked the new form. When the rogue died, the DM flipped through books until he found something with a big DEX penalty. When the party face died, he came back as a troglodyte.

We don't use that spell anymore.

Sounds to me like you shouldn't use that DM anymore.

[MonochromeTiger]

This is totally dependent upon your DM. My DM was always the kind that would twist every wish until your character was totally ruined, and everything with "DM's discretion" anywhere in the description always had the absolute worst possible result, or it just never worked.

Reincarnate was used in one of our campaigns when the DM said no raise dead/resurrection, and of course he always picked the new form. When the rogue died, the DM flipped through books until he found something with a big DEX penalty. When the party face died, he came back as a troglodyte.

We don't use that spell anymore.

sounds like he really wanted to get back at you guys for finding a way to bring back dead characters without raise dead or resurrection...not the most graceful of defeats from him..

[Icewraith]

Wouldn't this mean that your new character is always the maximum height, weight, and age for their race?

[MonochromeTiger]

Wouldn't this mean that your new character is always the maximum height, weight, and age for their race?

not really maximum age, reincarnate (at least the pathfinder one) mentions that the body made for the dead character is always a young adult.

[afroakuma]

I've heard this argument, and it's pretty shaky reasoning.

No, it's solid reasoning. Maximize Spell, like Empower Spell, stipulates "variable, numeric effects" which means effects which 1) generate a non-fixed result and 2) have a result quantified in numbers.

Note that this is the same wording used by Intensify Spell, which under the other reading would prevent an Intensified prismatic spray from functioning at all (as it doubles the result).

The effect of reincarnate is variable, but it is not numeric - the output is not a numerical value.

[Chronos]

Right, you don't come back as a 72 or a 23 or whatever, you come back as an elf or a dwarf or whatever.

[Icewraith]

Still might work for that height and weight thing though...

[AstralFire]

Still might work for that height and weight thing though...

I'm envisioning a cross between Dragon Ball's Red Ribbon Army and Order of the Stick or 8-Bit Theater here.