I like the idea of a negative LA race.

[G.Cube]

What would happen if there was a race with a -1LA? How about -2LA or -3LA?

I like the idea of this if only for the idea of such a race letting me mess with cool and interesting templates and not losing class levels.

What does the Playground think of this idea?

[Silva Stormrage]

It could be massively overpowered or worthless depending on what the stats of the race are. Considering some templates are better than others (Phrenric, Draconic, Half Fey, Half-Minotaur, Lolth Touched, White Dragonspawn, Etc) it would be difficult to balance

[herrhauptmann]

I believe there's an 'awakened construct' that is negative LA. But it has limits like no running, no full round actions (like full attacks). You're severely handicapping your character

[Mountain]

If used to give a character a free template by giving it crap statistics to start with, it could theoretically be balanced, but would end up just being one more way to min/max.

If used straight up to give free levels, every spellcaster in the game would jump on it, and everyone else probably would too, unless it completely crippled the character, like as in taking away actions.

[D4rkh0rus]

Incarnate construct, I am not sure if it does pose those negative modifiers, but it basically makes your character a clean slate, except for attributes and gives you a -2 La.

[Legendxp]

The Xvart (DR339 p64) has an LA of -2. It has +2 dex but -2 str and -2 con.

[Karnith]

The Xvart (DR339 p64) has an LA of -2. It has +2 dex but -2 str and -2 con.
That's not true about the LA, actually; Xvarts are LA +0.

It's been listed incorrectly on Crystal Keep as having LA -2 because someone confused its CR adjustment (like Goblins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm), Xvarts with levels in NPC classes have CR equal to their character level -2) with the LA, and other sources have perpetuated the error.

[Xerlith]

What would happen if there was a race with a -1LA? How about -2LA or -3LA?

I like the idea of this if only for the idea of such a race letting me mess with cool and interesting templates and not losing class levels.

What does the Playground think of this idea?

Wizard. A wizard with three free caster levels.

No, thanks. :smallwink:

[Joe the Rat]

Free levels is asking for trouble. It should only work in template math, or maybe racial hit dice. Take an uber-craptastic race, get a free 1-2 LA worth of templates.

If your race/template stack has -LA when finished, it becomes LA0 before character levels are added.

[unseenmage]

An actual play example of in game LA -1 might be a cursed item (or just an oppositely aligned item) that gives a negative level while worn but has a benefit the player feels is 'worth it'.

[AstralFire]

LA does not work, negative LA works even less.

[bekeleven]

An actual play example of in game LA -1 might be a cursed item (or just an oppositely aligned item) that gives a negative level while worn but has a benefit the player feels is 'worth it'.

Like the cursed sword iaijutsu focus build?

[unseenmage]

Like the cursed sword iaijutsu focus build?

Likely, I am not familiar with said build but that's probably an example of virtual negative Level Adjustment.

[Suddo]

Free levels is asking for trouble. It should only work in template math, or maybe racial hit dice. Take an uber-craptastic race, get a free 1-2 LA worth of templates.

If your race/template stack has -LA when finished, it becomes LA0 before character levels are added.

Yeah I think templates that reduce LA but not below 0 would be cool. So you could have a Crippled Half-Dragon Fighter 1 be ECL 1 but a Crippled Wizard 1 would be ECL 1.

[herrhauptmann]

Yeah I think templates that reduce LA but not below 0 would be cool. So you could have a Crippled Half-Dragon Fighter 1 be ECL 1 but a Crippled Wizard 1 would be ECL 1.

Check the back of Players Guide to Faerun.
They already hae suggestions on how to reduce your LA for powerful races. Same section that includes Lesser Planetouched, but it works on all races.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Likely, I am not familiar with said build but that's probably an example of virtual negative Level Adjustment.

Actually, it abuses the hell out of the following:

Ijatsu Focus
-2 Cursed Sword
Quick Draw
A sheathed weapon.


Basically, it works thusly:

Step 1: I draw my -2 Cursed Sword as a Free Action and attack with Ijatsu Focus (as part of the Drawing).

Step 2: After the Ijatsu attack, I drop my -2 Cursed Sword as a Free Action.

Step 3: I draw my other weapon as a Free Action, but draw my -2 Cursed Sword (The same one you just dropped, it's part of the "curse") as a free action and Ijastu again.

Step 4: Repeat steps 1-3 ad-infinitum until enemy is dead.

[No brains]

Here's a similar idea for you: no base race, just templates.

The blank character has 0, possibly 1, or 3 in all ability scores, no type, and no HD. Templates are piled on to fill out every digit of the character's abilities until they get to a suitable range from 3 to 18. It would be fun to mess with even if it doesn't make good characters.

[unseenmage]

Actually, it abuses the hell out of the following:

Ijatsu Focus
-2 Cursed Sword
Quick Draw
A sheathed weapon.


Basically, it works thusly:

Step 1: I draw my -2 Cursed Sword as a Free Action and attack with Ijatsu Focus (as part of the Drawing).

Step 2: After the Ijatsu attack, I drop my -2 Cursed Sword as a Free Action.

Step 3: I draw my other weapon as a Free Action, but draw my -2 Cursed Sword (The same one you just dropped, it's part of the "curse") as a free action and Ijastu again.

Step 4: Repeat steps 1-3 ad-infinitum until enemy is dead.

Ah, so it's exactly like it in that it's not at all like it. Got it.
And a serious thanks for the clarification.

[CockroachTeaParty]

This made me think: what would the ramifications of a negative adjustment metamagic feat be?

Let's say something like Minimize Spell: all variable numeric effects of the spell you cast are treated as if you rolled a '1' on all dice, or the minimum possible value.

-1 spell level?

Why would you ever do such a thing? How can an Incantatrix or whatever abuse this to hell?

[AstralFire]

This made me think: what would the ramifications of a negative adjustment metamagic feat be?

Let's say something like Minimize Spell: all variable numeric effects of the spell you cast are treated as if you rolled a '1' on all dice, or the minimum possible value.

-1 spell level?

Why would you ever do such a thing? How can an Incantatrix or whatever abuse this to hell?

Arcane Thesis already abuses this by turning +0 metamagics into -1s. The result is what makes Metamagic actually usable, albeit a horrifying frankenstein that definitely does not resemble anything like what they intended.

[(Un)Inspired]

Hmmmm the race would have to be bad. Really bad... You're talking about half-elves right?

[lsfreak]

Why would you ever do such a thing? How can an Incantatrix or whatever abuse this to hell?

Fairly easily. You apply it to something with no variable numeric effects. If you actually want to try, you do it to things that have variable numeric effects but you don't care about them; wall of fire comes to mind, as the difference between 2d6+CL damage and 2+CL damage isn't all that outstanding, certainly worth the drop of a spell level since you're probably not using it for its damage output in the first place. The prismatics may be the same way since they're likely dead, insane, turned to stone, and/or plane shifted anyways, the damage is overkill and not worth the extra spell level. Dispel magic out of second level slot sounds great to me, who cares if items are suppressed for one round instead of 1d4 if you're not using it to suppress items (or if turning them off for one round is enough for your party to turn them into XP).

[Totema]

To me, this smells an awful lot like the Flaws system. Seems balanced on paper, but in practice it opens up all kinds of optimization options.

[TuggyNE]

To me, this smells an awful lot like the Flaws system. Seems balanced on paper, but in practice it opens up all kinds of optimization options.

That's always the case for any sort of benefit-for-penalty pair with a penalty that can be negated, mitigated, or avoided in practice, especially those with a choice of benefit: competent optimizers minimize the penalty and maximize the benefit, and usually manage to turn it into a nearly-free power boost. (Genuinely free power boosts, also known as strictly superior options, are considerably rarer, but do exist.) 'S why it's called "min-maxing".

[AlltheBooks]

Of course you do.