Pathfinder - Made an Oradin build, would appreciate some advice

[Chezha]

Hey guys,

Sort of new to pathfinder. Played a campaign that I really enjoyed last year. I was a straight up Oracle and love healing at any given game really. On my first/last campaign I really enjoyed watching our tank (main dps) and his awesome attack power. It was silly to be honest with you which is why I probably really enjoyed watching him play his character.

He was using his combat abilities really well. Personally I don't like doing a lot of damage. I decided to make a healer that can stick by the front lines and use trip as her specialty and be awesome at touch healing in the front lines and so I made an Oradin build.

Her name is Chezha. She is a level 6, LG Aasimar of the Angel-kin. +2 Charisma, +2 Strength. She is 2 levels Paladin and 4 levels Oracle. I am thinking of not advancing her Paladinship but focusing on her Oracleness... if that makes sense. Her background is still in the making unfortunately. So far she is a minor noble (Aasmiars are nobility in the campaign), she is trying to support an orphanage (I would love to have some help on her background as well. I am very unclear on how to own or help operate an orphanage... what the costs are and so on. I am not trying to profit from the building at all.) I am using the orphanage to make excuses for why I would ever go adventuring with a mostly Chaotic group of characters... Originally Chezha was supposed to accept quests in exchange for support towards the orphanage. It hasn't really come up yet actually. I thought maybe I can accept quests if they would take on an apprentice if the quest giver was skilled or if they had money then a monthly contribution to the orphanage or something... I really need to finish her background. It's not really going anywhere. Moving along from all this she is a Wonkaneer. She brews potions in the form of hard candies. The children at the orphanage take advantage of the non-magical candies as well of course :)

Anyway she ended up being a:

Strength 14
Dexterity 12
Constitution 13
Intelligence 13
Wisdom 13
Charisma 20 (+1 from her level and +2 from Alluring headband of Charisma)

She has 63 health (all abilities went toward +1 hit points from Oracle as the favored class)

Acrobatics 0
Appraise 1
Bluff 0
Climb 0
Diplomacy 6 + 3 (from race)
Disable Device 0
Disguise 0
Escape Artist 0
Fly 0
Handle Animal 0
Heal 6 + 3
Intimidate 0
Knowledge planes 2 + 3
Knowledge religion 2 + 3
Linguistics 0
Perception 1
Profession Wonkaneer (candy maker, role-playing brew potion feat as candy maker)
Ride 0
Sense Motive 1 + 3
Sleight of Hand 0
Stealth 0
Survival 0
Spell craft 6 +3
Swim 0
Use Magic Device* 0

Feats:
Magical Knack (Oracle) [Magic Trait] - Makes me a lvl 6 Oracle caster
Sacred Touch [Faith Trait] - Auto Stabilize on touch
Armour proficiency (light, medium, heavy)
Brew potion (next level to get Magic Arms and Armour but that might change...)
Combat Expertise +/- 2
Improved Trip (I was joking to the DM that this will be a very "trippy" campaign and it's actually going really good so far :D )
Martial Weapon Proficiency (all)
Shield Proficiency
Simple Weapon Proficiency (all)

Special abilities are

Damage Resistance, Acid, Cold, Electricity and rolled Sonic (5) on Aasimar ability
Dark-vision (60 feet)
My curse is Tongues (Abyssal and Infernal) - hey imagine a LG Paladin speaking like a demon...
Oracle channel positive energy (SU)
Smite Evil (SU)
Detect Evil (SP)
Aura of Good (EX)
Lay on Hands (SU)
Picked Safe Curing (SU) from the Life lore of the Oracle, this way my heals don't provoke attacks

Now that you have a general idea of what my character is like, I can finally ask for advice :) I would appreciate current level advice as well as future level advice as well.

Magic Items I currently have are

Headband of Alluring Charisma +2 Charisma
Handy Haversack

What I am thinking of getting so far
Folding Plate - normal form looks like steel brooch or a cloak clasp, on command surrounds the wearer in + 1 Full plate Armour. (I thought this might be handy to have since full plate takes inconveniently long to don.) But the problem that arises is when in full plate I am 10 feet slower...

So to solve this issue I already grabbed boots of Sprinting and Striding (which makes me 10 feet faster)

What else should an Oradin have do you think at this point?
I was thinking of upgrading my headband to a +4 later and +2 Wisdom maybe?
+ 2 Dex item... also should probably get natural Armour necklace...

Non magical Items

+ 1 Chain shirt - AC bonus + 5 (usually wear it in the city)
+ 1 Light shield - AC bonus + 2
+ 1 Light flail (Mithiral)
+ 1 Composite Long Bow (Strength + 2)
+ 4 Javelins

There is a long list of handy items like rope and snow goggles and such but I won't list them

What I am thinking of getting

+ 1 Mithiral Gladius for P/S damage just in case


I am also not very happy convinced that I picked the right spells... I am really limited but fortunate at the same time.

Being a life Oracle I know all healing spells automatically. (Cure light, moderate, mass heals and so on)

0 level spells 7/6 (DC 15)
- Detect Magic, Poison
- Guidance
- Mending
- Purify Food/Drink
- Read Magic
* Auto Stabilize

1st level Spells 5/3 (DC 16)
- Summon Monster 1
- Shield of Faith
- Divine Favor
* Cure light wounds (Oracle)
* Detect Undead (Paladin)

2nd level spells 3/1 (DC 17)
- Aid
* Cure Moderate Wounds (oracle)
* Lesser Restoration (oracle)


I am really not sold on Command since I speak either Abyssal or Infernal in stressed situations like when I am in Combat but it is too late to change that right now. I wish I had taken Summon Monster 1... sounds more helpful...

Sigh, sorry I feel like I rambled for too long but I am kind of lost as to how I can improve my character. If you can provide any advice for this character as she is presently or maybe make me think about what I should think about in the future about her I would really appreciate it.

[Snowbluff]

Angel Kin? Is that PF speak for Tiefling Racial Bonus to Lay on Hands? :smalltongue:

The ideal move on an Oracle build would be to focus more oracle levels.

As for spells, I am partial to sound burst. If you continue to focus on buffs and support, your 2 lost oracle levels will hurt less.

[Chezha]

Aasimars have different heritages that they can be from.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar it will be mid page when you see the list of heritages available.

The sonic resistance was due to a roll that I have made while creating this character, which comes from their Aasimar abilities. It is a table also available from the link.

I am sure it will come in handy... if it doesn't I can just role-play it up and say that she gained this resistance due to the orphans being loud. Being kids, it is natural for them to be lively and loud.

[Zubrowka74]

I assume you already read the Oradin Mini-guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365)?

[Xerlith]

Okay. After a quick read I think that for now you can probably fare pretty well as a ranged DPS with your bow + smite
What is the rest of your team?
I think that now it's better (if you have other casters in your team) to focus on your Paladin levels, which will bring you more LoH, Mercy bonuses, as well as improve your out-of-the-box damage with more Smites and Smite damage.

...WAITAMINUTE.

Do you NOT have the Life Link revelation? This... Kinda... Defeats the Oradin purpose. :smallbiggrin:
I see you have not listed your 3rd level Revelation at all. Is this the Link one?

A few more things: You gain paladin spells when you get 4th PALADIN, not CHARACTER level. This is true also for Oracle.
As well as you do not get all th cure spells for free. ONly those:

Bonus Spells: detect undead (2nd), lesser restoration (4th), neutralize poison (6th), restoration (8th), breath of life (10th), heal (12th), greater restoration (14th), mass heal (16th), true resurrection (18th).

This might be a houserule, that I do not know though.

Finally I think you're mistaken about the way Oracle spellcasting works. You're a spontaneous caster. You do not prepare spells, you may cast any of those known to you.
(I'm figuring from the asterisks that you're doing it some other way).

[Snowbluff]

Do you NOT have the Life Link revelation? This... Kinda... Defeats the Oradin purpose. :smallbiggrin: Yeah. For posterity, oradins are paladins with the life link revelation from an oracle dip. Since they can heal themselves as a swift action, they suck up their party's damage and heal it on themselves really quickly. Tieflings (+1/level to Lay on Hands when healing themselves) with the Fey Foundling (+2/die of self healing) feat are the best for this, followed by halfings (1/2 level to LoH, and are small).


Aasimars have different heritages that they can be from.


Ahaha, celestial lies and slander. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) :smalltongue:

[Chezha]

I assume you already read the Oradin Mini-guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365)?


I had heard of such a post but it was after I created my Chezha. I just skimmed it really quickly and it seems I made the Oradin totally wrong. Oh well I can't change it now. I guess I will be trying to improve this character as much as I can.



Okay. After a quick read I think that for now you can probably fare pretty well as a ranged DPS with your bow + smite
What is the rest of your team?
I think that now it's better (if you have other casters in your team) to focus on your Paladin levels, which will bring you more LoH, Mercy bonuses, as well as improve your out-of-the-box damage with more Smites and Smite damage.

...WAITAMINUTE.

Do you NOT have the Life Link revelation? This... Kinda... Defeats the Oradin purpose. :smallbiggrin:
I see you have not listed your 3rd level Revelation at all. Is this the Link one?

A few more things: You gain paladin spells when you get 4th PALADIN, not CHARACTER level. This is true also for Oracle.
As well as you do not get all th cure spells for free. ONly those:

Bonus Spells: detect undead (2nd), lesser restoration (4th), neutralize poison (6th), restoration (8th), breath of life (10th), heal (12th), greater restoration (14th), mass heal (16th), true resurrection (18th).

This might be a houserule, that I do not know though.

Finally I think you're mistaken about the way Oracle spellcasting works. You're a spontaneous caster. You do not prepare spells, you may cast any of those known to you.
(I'm figuring from the asterisks that you're doing it some other way).

Starting from the top, I am actually more interested in close combat. We have 2 casters. One being fire sorcerer and the other being a conjurer. We have a rouge as our skills specialist, a melee ranger with claws... she is pretty badass actually and has a small cat as her companion. We also have a main close combat barbarian character using a 2 handed weapon. I think that's everyone anyway. So far we only had 2 sessions and barely any of them needed healing in combat. Heals were done after combat, except I got really injured last session and it was easy healing myself.

My 1st revelation was Safe Curing, second was Channel Positive energy. Also if you read this information it says that I know all the healing spells.
"In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them. This choice is made when the oracle gains her first level and cannot be changed." - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle

You are right about preparing spells. Oracles don't need to prepare spells. They know so many spells and they can cast them as much as they are allowed in combination with their available spells per day and their Charisma modifier. Because I had already selected the mentioned spells on my first post on this thread I cannot actually change them. This character is already created. :smallsmile:

Going back to lifelink discussion both in the Oradin guide and from you Xerlith, I could have done the Life link, someone had mentioned it but added that it was a bit too powerful. I am not actually in search of an amazing character however this might sound a bit ignorant? Please don't take it that way. I just had really liked what I saw a friend of mine play like in close combat and got inspired by that I guess.

The advice I am looking for is more on how to improve this character items I should have or think about getting, future feats, future armour and so on.

I will read the Oradin guide that Zubrowka74 mentioned. Just from the looks of it, it is more geared towards a life link build. I have already found a couple of things that might be helpful for Chezha :smallsmile:.

If I missed anything let me know and I will clarify in more detail.

*** Edited *** Knew I forgot something. When I was talking about levels, I am only level 2 paladin and so I do not have any mercies. I am not sure how I feel about them actually. It seems I might be more useful in the group if i were to go more Oracle levels from now on as I am the healer of the party. Plus I think I will enjoy the Oracle more then I would enjoy Paladin. Like I mentioned earlier I am not much into fighting. Tripping enemies and make them prone so my party can get them is much more appealing for me :smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

I had heard of such a post but it was after I created my Chezha. I just skimmed it really quickly and it seems I made the Oradin totally wrong. Oh well I can't change it now. I guess I will be trying to improve this character as much as I can.

It's salvageable, but I think at this point more paladin levels won't help much.

As for tripping, it's too bad this isn't 3.5. Either way, grab Combat Expertise and take advantage of your martial weapon proficiency to use a glaive.

[Xerlith]

Starting from the top, I am actually more interested in close combat. We have 2 casters. One being fire sorcerer and the other being a conjurer. We have a rouge as our skills specialist, a melee ranger with claws... she is pretty badass actually and has a small cat as her companion. We also have a main close combat barbarian character using a 2 handed weapon. I think that's everyone anyway. So far we only had 2 sessions and barely any of them needed healing in combat. Heals were done after combat, except I got really injured last session and it was easy healing myself.

This is probably why you don't see the importance of Life Link yet. The further you go, the more useful it is. (And then, much, much later, it drops again. But it's really far away from now).


My 1st revelation was Safe Curing, second was Channel Positive energy. Also if you read this information it says that I know all the healing spells. - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle


Okay. Always missed this part, I guess. Had only one Oracle player this far. Well, that's nice to know.



You are right about preparing spells. Oracles don't need to prepare spells. They know so many spells and they can cast them as much as they are allowed in combination with their available spells per day and their Charisma modifier. Because I had already selected the mentioned spells on my first post on this thread I cannot actually change them. This character is already created. :smallsmile:

Well, good thing you know then. But you have NO paladin spells, since you are a 2nd level paladin.


Going back to lifelink discussion both in the Oradin guide and from you Xerlith, I could have done the Life link, someone had mentioned it but added that it was a bit too powerful. I am not actually in search of an amazing character however this might sound a bit ignorant? Please don't take it that way. I just had really liked what I saw a friend of mine play like in close combat and got inspired by that I guess.

Uh... Bit too powerful? Not even close. It's a minor help for someone that wants to heal in combat and still contribute meaningfully to the fight (Because in-combat healing is completely pointless - you're better off finishing the enemies and healing afterwards).

The best way to help your team is by buffing them prior to combat and disabling the opponents through it. Healing is something you do afterwards. That's why the Life-Link Oradin is such a big thing.



the two most important rules of healing:

Rule one: Unless you absolutely, positively need to save someone from certain death right now, healing is best done after combat ends.

Rule two: The most important function of a healer is not restoring lost HP, but removing detrimental effects - ability damage, blindness, insanity, curses, death and so on.

This sums it up nicely. The Status removal you'll get from either the Oracle bonus spells or the Paladin mercies - here it's a tie.



The advice I am looking for is more on how to improve this character items I should have or think about getting, future feats, future armour and so on.

I will read the Oradin guide that Zubrowka74 mentioned. Just from the looks of it, it is more geared towards a life link build. I have already found a couple of things that might be helpful for Chezha :smallsmile:.

If I missed anything let me know and I will clarify in more detail.

*** Edited *** Knew I forgot something. When I was talking about levels, I am only level 2 paladin and so I do not have any mercies. I am not sure how I feel about them actually. It seems I might be more useful in the group if i were to go more Oracle levels from now on as I am the healer of the party. Plus I think I will enjoy the Oracle more then I would enjoy Paladin. Like I mentioned earlier I am not much into fighting. Tripping enemies and make them prone so my party can get them is much more appealing for me :smallsmile:

Yes. It seems to me that you're quite unsure as of what you REALLY want from the character. I see the cool concept - and it's okay to work from there - but you must first understand that D&D/PF is a system that punishes being the jack of all trades severely.

I see you want to focus on melee fighting (meaning you're better off taking more Paladin levels) and in-combat healing (meaning you're better off... Uh... taking life link and more Paladin levels?), but you also want to be a better caster by taking more Oracle levels.

I think it'd be helpful if you shortly described what you want your character to be able to do. One time you say you want to focus on melee, then you say you're not much into fighting. The first thing you have to do is to make up your mind.

*looks up* :smallsigh: Again I came off more harsh than I intended.

Okay, to sum up quickly:

If you want Life Link, you may just ask your DM if he'd allow you to swap your Channel for it, then proceed to take Paladin Levels.

And ask the DM if you're allowed to use 3.5ed Prestige Classes - it might be just what you need.

Oh, and you may want to read this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0). Not much changed in PF.

[Chezha]

It's salvageable, but I think at this point more paladin levels won't help much.

As for tripping, it's too bad this isn't 3.5. Either way, grab Combat Expertise and take advantage of your martial weapon proficiency to use a glaive.

Hmmm, I would be spending an action to put away the shield or drop it to use this weapon but I'll keep it in mind. Thank you Snowbluff.

Xerlith :)

First of all, you did come a bit harsh but not as much as you think. I think the problem is with my wording. I just wasn't clear about what I want to do exactly and to be honest I don't know a 100% myself.

To clear things up a bit, I don't actually like doing damage unless I have nothing else to do and the enemy is already tripped and prone on the ground.

I wanted this character to be able to take a hit or 2 up on the front lines. I wanted Chezha to be armoured and shielded, hence the light shield and light flail. I could have made a more damage causing paladin but I am wanting to heal more then do damage. I hope I made myself clear on the "I don't want to be a damage heavy paladin, just enough to keep the attention on me and keep the enemy in combat with myself"

I will stick with the shield and one handed weapon though. When it comes to life link I will definitely consider it. I would need to have 3 more Oracle levels though before I can get it.

So I am not trying to be a jack of all trades. Just a combat healer and I realize there could have been a better way of being that. So from all of your inputs it gave me a general idea to take 3 more levels in Oracle to get Life link. After level 7 Oracle I will need to look at getting a couple more paladin levels too.

Also since I took so long to post a reply, I see you made some additions. I really like those 2 rules you quoted. I will take that to heart for sure. Also reading the healing guide you've added right away. :smallsmile:

[Xerlith]

Stuff

If you can, do not take more Oracle levels. Ask your DM to allow you to switch one of the revelations you currently possess.

Snowbluff said something I myself wanted to suggest - go with the Glaive. You don't need to worry about the shield - you can grab one with the Animated property (+2 price) to just float around you leaving both your hands free.
Trip people like nobody's business. And because you've got reach, you'll be able to stay out of the harm's way yourself.

Oh, and you may want to grab the fullplate while we're at it.


About Life Link - there's two ways you can go about it:

1. The Frontline Bruiser
You are heavily armored, melee-attacking with Smite (or without it), swift-action healing with LoH, Lifelinked to your two-three most vital (heh) frontlien buddies. Paladin-heavy build that benefits most from about three-four Oracle levels tops. More and it begins to hurt you a bit.

This lets you use your Glaive and Improved Trip to the very best -you have the feats, don't let them go to waste.

2. The Backline Support
Mobile, archery-focused (Again, smite helps) build that runs around the battlefield and shoots people while staying out of the harm's way themselves - you can heal yourself without being harassed then - you can swap the Safe Curing revelation for Life Link (you must stay 30ft from your Lifelinked allies though -that's a problem).

A random idea - get a bunch of spell-storing arrows (if the DM allows) and fill them with Cure and status removal spells. Then just... Shoot your friends.

Sadly, you don't have the stats (12 dex :smalleek:) to run with an archery build without smite optimization (which you don't want).

If your DM allows 3.5 stuff, it'd be easier.

EDIT: Added some explanations and straightened my thought flow. A bit.

[Chezha]

I'll keep your advice in mind.

[Snowbluff]

Hmmm, I would be spending an action to put away the shield or drop it to use this weapon but I'll keep it in mind. Thank you Snowbluff.

You're welcome. :smallsmile:

I think the standard advice for using a polearm is to wear armor spikes or a spiked gauntlets for hitting people within 5 feet. If you want a shield and don't want to pay for animated, I would wear a buckler. Personally, I feel like their should be a better option to improve your AC.

[Xerlith]

Okay, one last thing...

I had a Warblade Spiked Chain Tripper in my game. It worked like that:

- The enemy closes in
- Attack of Opportunity to trip
- enemy trying to get up provokes an AoO...
- Trip on AoO
And so on. Annoying? A bit. But damn efficient.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-reflexes-combat
You may want to take this feat, it benefits from a high dexterity though- you might consider grabbing a +2 Dex item if you go the lockdown path.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stand-still-combat---final Another feat worth considering.

Your job with those would be basically being the Wall - preventing the melee enemies from closing in on your casters/archers.

Items - you'd need a spiked gauntlet (to threaten adjacent squares) and the Glaive (Reach!) + maybe a Mithral Fullplate.

Remember that your CMB (which you need high for this to work) is calculated off your BAB, meaning you profit from full-bab classes twice as much.
A build like Paladin2/Oracle8/Paladin+10 might work out just well for trip-optimizing.

Paladin2/Oracle18 suffers a bit more, but gets 9th level spells instead.

[grarrrg]

Just popping in to say:


I...don't have much to do here.

[phlidwsn]

As well as you do not get all th cure spells for free. ONly those:

Bonus Spells: detect undead (2nd), lesser restoration (4th), neutralize poison (6th), restoration (8th), breath of life (10th), heal (12th), greater restoration (14th), mass heal (16th), true resurrection (18th).

This might be a houserule, that I do not know though.



A small correction: You do get the listed bonus spells known based on picking Life as listed above. However, all Oracles get all Cure x or Inflict x spells no matter the Mystery chosen. Its listed under the 4th paragraph of the Spells class entry for Oracle.

In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them. This choice is made when the oracle gains her first level and cannot be changed.

[Xerlith]

Yes, we addressed that already. :smallbiggrin: