Elven Fighter with improved weapon familiarity

[tricktroller]

Ok folks of the playground,
I was thinking an elven fighter who uses all the elven weapons would be cool. The roleplay style of the character would be such that he is elven nobility.

Prince Carrtherien Ephrenothith, Lord of the Blackwood, Wielder of the Hearth Blade, High Seat of House Ephrenothith, Keeper of the Sigiled Seal, Guardian of the Westgate

Fighter 1-20 (possibly taking prcs or soemthing maybe Kensai or Exotic weapon master)

Feats
1st Improved Weapon Familiarity
F1 Nobleman - AEG feat adds 350 gp to starting gold, adds ride, diplomacy, and all knowledge as class skills, plus fits the theme.
F2 TWF (just because I think it would be cool for him to use a thinblade and lightblade with a courtblade as backup)
3rd ?
F4 ?
6th Leadership
F6 ?

stats are
str 18
dex 20
con 14
int 14
wis 12
cha 16

He will have one of each of the elven blades and at later levels will probably pick up an Elven Double bow just for the halibut. Hope there isn't anything too fishy about this guy so far.

He does need to be able to kill things but doesn't need to be hyper optimized, this guy is very much going for rule of cool. I plan to play him as self effacing amongst friends, aka the party, but arrogant as a runway model when faced by enemies.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would use gloves of the balanced hand and shadow blade for dex to damage, maybe paired with swashbuckler for int to damage.

Grey elf with Fairy mystery initiate for Int to HP, dump con, high dex and int swashbuckler 3 / fighter X / exotic weapon master X with just enough TOB feats to get a shadow hand stance (iles of blades sounds good) and shadow blade.

[Callin]

Shadow Blade wont work here.

I see this guy as more of a Warblade. Basking in the Glory that they crave. I would lower Str and get Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. Then go to town with his main weapon the Court Blade. Use the Lightblade as his in court weapon. Something smaller and stylish; a bit more refined. With Warblade adaptability you dont need seperate feats for different weapons (also a plus since you want to use different ones).

Then after all that take the PrC Eternal Blade.

[tricktroller]

Didn't even think about swashbuckler but one issue is I won't have access to any elven weapons until 3rd level like that because Nobleman has to be taken at 1st level.

[Callin]

Try to work it past your DM to retrain either the Longsword or Rapier feat from Elf into Weapon Familiarity. You trained with those weapons not the regular weapons of your people.

Its still a 50g and a time sink right off the bat so its not like its free.

Remind him its Starting Equipment. Its stuff that was handed down to you, or given as a gift. You might have gone out and purchased a trinket or two but probably not the higher priced stuff. Its all fluff and background stuff, but it can explain weird mechanics or things you wanna do with your character.

[Greenish]

Have you considered Champion of Corellon Larethian? It's elfy, it gets Dex to damage, and it needs a bunch of feats to enter (if you insist being a fighter).


Of course, I recommend Warblade, too. Dip fighter 2 after 1st level for Imp. Weapon Familiarity and Weapon Finesse.

[tricktroller]

How does
Fighter 1-2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 5-6/ Eternal Blade/ Champion of Correllan

Why can;t I use Shadowblade?

[Callin]

the Elven Blades are not part of the Shadow Hand special weapons

[tricktroller]

Gotcha. Now what about aptitude? or would that rule them out for champion of Correllan?

[Greenish]

I'd start with something that actually gets skill points (since they get multiplied at 1st level).


Shadow Blade only works with Shadow Hand weapons.

[tricktroller]

Ok so what would you guys suggest for something like this?

[Fouredged Sword]

I remember a thinblade counting as a rapier, which is a shadowhand weapon. I may be completely off base though, so check the books.

[tricktroller]

also how does taking levels in like warblade and swordsage work if you have levels of other classes, for instance 3 swashbuckler 2 fighter 1 swordsage would be what for initiator level?

[tricktroller]

actually its the lightblade that counts as a shortsword or a rapier that would qualify, not the thinblade.

[Seerow]

also how does taking levels in like warblade and swordsage work if you have levels of other classes, for instance 3 swashbuckler 2 fighter 1 swordsage would be what for initiator level?

All non-initiator levels count as half. So Fighter+Swashbuckler give you IL2, so when you take Swordsage you'd be IL3, qualifying for 2nd level maneuvers.

[Fouredged Sword]

Non-swordsage levels count for half, round down, so you have 5/2 +1, so 3.

[Greenish]

I remember a thinblade counting as a rapier, which is a shadowhand weapon. I may be completely off base though, so check the books.Rapier is a Diamond Mind weapon. Shadow Hand weapons are dagger, short sword, spiked chain, unarmed strike, and a couple of bad monk weapons.

[Icewraith]

Thinblade counts as rapier or longsword for feats at least.

The biggest advantage I am aware of with the elven racial weapons is that you can power attack with the thinblade, unlike a rapier, and you qualify for the uncanny blow exotic weapon master ability that treats one-handed exotic weapons as two-handed for the purpose of power attack. The intuitive thing to do with your off-hand is to then dual wield them, but you're already at -4 to hit as you don't have a light weapon in your off hand.

Edit: Also, bastard sword/lesser sunblade does it better, since the lesser sunblade counts as a bastard sword AND a short sword, so you're only at -2 to hit.

[tricktroller]

could always use oversized twf. Then again this guy mostly has TWF so he CAN dual wield if he feels the need. This guy is all about style and being very very Elfy with a capital E.

[Raezeman]

maybe 2 levels of wildrunner?

[Seerow]

Thinblade counts as rapier or longsword for feats at least.

The biggest advantage I am aware of with the elven racial weapons is that you can power attack with the thinblade, unlike a rapier, and you qualify for the uncanny blow exotic weapon master ability that treats one-handed exotic weapons as two-handed for the purpose of power attack. The intuitive thing to do with your off-hand is to then dual wield them, but you're already at -4 to hit as you don't have a light weapon in your off hand.

Edit: Also, bastard sword/lesser sunblade does it better, since the lesser sunblade counts as a bastard sword AND a short sword, so you're only at -2 to hit.

So new goal: Optimize the to-hit bonus of a EWM/CoCL so that the -4 to hit doesn't matter, even while power attacking for lots.

[Icewraith]

Right, but most of the TWF feats are terrible, and there are a bunch of them.

You could see if your Dm would allow you to do the lesser sunblade thing, only replace "bastard sword" with "elven thinblade" and pay the same cost for the weapon. Take TWF, maybe I TWF, and stop there.

You could also try the Blood in the Water crit-fisher build, only with Aptitude Elven Thinblades instead of Kukris, but you're getting more and more gear dependant. Also, the crit-fisher build requires your DM have enough cheese tolerance for aptitude weapon and lightning maces to work together.

Edit: going back to the power attacking build, wand chamber thinblades and a wand of wraithstrike will benefit you greatly. You'll want to pick up something with use magic device as a class skill or at least a couple levels in a spellcasting class. The only downer is that you can't raging mongoose and cast wraithstrike in the same round, and persistent wraithstrike requires a DM with a fairly strong cheese tolerance AND makes you dependant on buffs from other characters.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by tricktroller
I was thinking an elven fighter who uses all the elven weapons would be cool. The roleplay style of the character would be such that he is elven nobility.

This concept is perfect for Elven Pride of Arms, one of the racial flaws from Dragon #328. The character uses traditional elven weapons normally, and takes a hefty penalty if he uses anything else, even weapons in which his class would ordinarily be proficient.

[tricktroller]

Ok how about this. The AEG feat book has a feat called Superior finesse. requires int and dex 13+ combat expertise and weapon finesse, it lets you add dex instead of strength. So

Swashbuckler 1/Fighter1/Swashbuckler 2

at 4th level I do dex and int to damage with all finessable weapons. I will have a courtblade lightblade and thinblade like I wanted and all of them will do some pretty decent damage. By taking two flaws(was trying to do without but they help so damn much) I can take the feats, nobleman, Imp. weapon familiarity, combat expertise, weapon finesse, superior finesse, and twf by 3rd level. giving me everything I want in the character by 3rd. someone who is fun as well as can deal decent damage in multiple different styles. The idea of using smarts and grace to deal damage rather than brute force really appeals to me for this character.

Stats are for a gray elf

str 12
dex 20
con 14
int 20
wis 12
cha 16

[tricktroller]

Ok so how does that ACF work?

[Greenish]

So new goal: Optimize the to-hit bonus of a EWM/CoCL so that the -4 to hit doesn't matter, even while power attacking for lots.OTWF is (functionally) +2. Knowledge Devotion (he has a feat that makes all knowledges class skills, I note) is +1 to +5, and same to damage. Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization & Melee Weapon Mastery is three feats, requires at least four levels of fighter (warblade helps), and gives +3 to attack and +4 to damage, though only applies to one weapon type (though warblade could switch it around).

[tricktroller]

palanan doesn;t this feat not allow the "elven type" weapons? like the thinblade and lightblade?

[tricktroller]

Yeah Greenish but I bet at the level I can take both of those OTWF would be better statically and I could take knowledge devotion later for even more damage and buffing. Then again I really think the idea of him dual wielding one thinblade and one lightblade fits him stylistically better. What's the point in taking the feat if I only ever use one of the weapons on the list of "elven" weapons. I would love it if I could find even more "elven" weapons. He would carry one of each if there were more lol

[Icewraith]

If you go dual thinblade/lightblade (negating a large chunk of the power attack schtick), why not go daring outlaw? Four rogue levels to get the ACF that gets you half sneak attack damage on crit-immune targets you flank, swashbuckler the rest of the way, full sneak attack progression.

[tricktroller]

well I was going to go with exotic weapon master at some point. Also I am thinking he will dual wield elven lightblades for the second level twin exotic weapon fighting making his twf penalties only -1. This also opens him up for shadwblade I suppose since they are shortswords. The more I look at it the more I want to have a pair of lightblades that eventually magically combine into a courtblade for no reason other than fluff and so I get more use out of my weapon familiarity....

[Greenish]

Yeah Greenish but I bet at the level I can take both of those OTWF would be better staticallyI wasn't suggesting you take any specific ones out of those, I was just spitballing stuff that increases attack.

[Icewraith]

The thing is, Exotic Weapon Master doesn't get you a whole lot unless you're going to be using the trick as your main schtick. Also, uncanny blow and maybe the flurry of strikes (and there aren't any elven racial double weapons) abilities are far and away the best of the bunch, iirc. I think you can also turn any exotic weapon into a tripping weapon, but that's only good if you're already planning to trip.

[tricktroller]

well with that build I would be able to. I could take improved trip as my 9th level feat and as one of the abilities from ewm. That could be disgusting.....


Ok so I want to circle back to what I originally posted and see what we can do about him, but I also wrote up what we have morphed out of my original concept.

So original post was about an elven fighter who used all of the elven styled weapons and was Elfy with a capital E.

The new idea from all of your input looks like
Human
swashbuckler 3/rogue 3/swashbuckler 1/Exotic Weapon Master 3/ Swashbuckler 10

Feats
Flaw1 EWP Elven Light blade
Flaw2 combat expertise
human superior finesse
1st twf
sb1 weapon finesse
3rd weapon focus elven lightblade
6th daring outlaw
9th improved trip


no idea for the rest of his feats but this ends up with 9d6 sneak attack, +2 Grace, +3 dodge, int and dex to damage, short swords that can trip, that deal double damage on power attacks and that have twf penalties reduced by 1.

Maybe Elfy with a capital E will use all of the weapons but prefers his courtblade with knowledge devotion. Let's explore that route maybe?

[Icewraith]

Uncanny blow only works with the Thinblade, which is a one-handed exotic weapon. The lightblade is a LIGHT exotic weapon and you can't power attack with it at all. However, the point of the daring outlaw build is to get your sneak attack damage as an alternative damage source to power attack.

I believe you want 4 rogue levels for the penetrating strike ACF (gives you half your sneak attack damage to normally immune creatures if you can flank them). You also want to start at 1st level with rogue for skillpoints.

Double edit: swashbuckler has an ACF that reduces your dodge bonus by 1 but lets you apply it to everyone when you attack with two light weapons.

[tricktroller]

Well that's fine, I'm less interested in that character and more interested in Prince Elfy of Elfdom.

[Callin]

Well that's fine, I'm less interested in that character and more interested in Prince Elfy of Elfdom.

Then he would have levels in Elf Paragon and Ruathar.

[tricktroller]

Are those better than a straight fighter? I was thinking not an uber charger build but something that does a lot of damage anyways.

Fighter 6/ EWM 1 Trip/ Champ of Corellon 10/ Fighter 2/ 1 ?

use a courtblade, use knowledge devotion, and be an incredibly smart fighter.

[Red Fel]

In my opinion, the best way to be a smart Fighter is not to be a Fighter - as previously mentioned in the thread, go Warblade. Warblade gets you access to martial maneuvers, and has class features that key off of Int.

Additionally, Warblade gains you access to the Eternal Blade PrC, also mentioned earlier in the thread, which is extremely capital-E Elfy. In fact, Elf race is a prereq. You're basically a destined champion of elvenkind, served and guided by an incorporeal spirit of an ancient Elven warrior. Again, you gain Int-based class abilities, Uncanny Dodge, full BAB...

Oh, and did I mention that your capstone permits you to take an entire turn as an immediate action once per encounter? Why yes, please, enjoy a free turn, on the house. Whenever you want it - even during someone else's turn.

You aren't just Captain Elfy McElvenpants. You're Captain Elfy McElvenpants, Resident BadElf of Elfheim.

[tricktroller]

alrighty well can you get me dex to damage as well as strength along with knowledge devotion with that setup? I think it would be cool to be a champion of corellon and an eternal blade and have my blade guide thingy be Corellon or an avatar of his. Just for fluff reasons.

[tricktroller]

maybe two level dip in fighter for prereqs for ChampoCL and then go warblade 4 exotic weapon master 1 Champ whatever I need to get dex to damage then eternal blade finish off champ?

[tricktroller]

or should I go with the elven thin blade for 1 point of damage less on average but the ability to wield a shield if need be and the the uncanny blow ability from exotic weapon master which would lead to a lot more damage potential

[Callin]

Warblade 7/Champ Cor 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Eternal Blade 10


Mix in the PrC's where you want.

(why do you want EWM? just use the Court Blade)

[tricktroller]

ewm for trip or uncanny blow if I used the thin blade.

[Fouredged Sword]

You need two levels of champ to get dex to damage, but there is nothing preventing you from ALSO picking up shadow blade.

I would go Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 / Warblade 2 / Champion of Corellon Larethian 2 / Warblade 1 / Eternal Blade 10

Pick up martial study, martial stance, and shadow blade - Fairy magic initiate

You get Int to Hp in place of Con

Weapon + Str + dex2 + int to all damage

I suggest assassin's stance so you can also pick up craven, for +20 damage on some hits.

[tricktroller]

Hey FOuredged that doesnt get enough feats to get everything you need with the three feats you are suggesting adding in even with two flaws. ALso lets worry less about adding int to damage and just use in for knowledge devotion. easier that way probably. or might be easier to ignore shadow blade.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, shadow blade is eating feats there. You may find better results from simply going

Fighter 2 / Warblade 5 / CCL 2 / Warblade 1 / Eternal Blade 10

FMI is near vital, as it allows you to grab grey elf and laugh all the way to silly HP totals.

Get a vest of steady spellcasting and use it to supercharge the concentration as damage strikes from diamond mind. Use a court blade with power attack for damage (you can get touch attacks as a strike).

[tricktroller]

but if I use a thinblade and take one level in ewm with uncanny blow I deal double strength damage and I deal double damage with power attack right? Wouldn't that be a useful reason to dip plus I already have the prereqs so that I can take eternal blade (one being weapon focus)

[Callin]

not double with Power Attack. Just treat it as if it was a 2 handed weapon.

and thats fine if you want to go that route. Use the Court Blade for your early career then with warblade switch it all to Thinblade once you get into EWM. That could work

[tricktroller]

well I mean honestly isnt using punishing stance with a heavy shiled and the thin blade more effective than the courtblade? chance of 1-6 as opposed to only +2 damage no reduction on two hit and ability to boost ac?

[Fouredged Sword]

Looking at it, that may be a good way to go.

Fighter 2 / Warblade 4 / EWM 1 / CCL 2 / Warblade 1 / Eternal Blade 10

Use a thinblade two handed once you hit level 7, before that go heavy shield / thin blade. Don't dump strength and you are getting 2X str + dex to damage and deal 2X penalty for power attack damage.

[Callin]

Looking at it, that may be a good way to go.

Fighter 2 / Warblade 4 / EWM 1 / CCL 2 / Warblade 1 / Eternal Blade 10

Use a thinblade two handed once you hit level 7, before that go heavy shield / thin blade. Don't dump strength and you are getting 2X str + dex to damage and deal 2X penalty for power attack damage.

This way also gets you 9th level Maneuvers.

[Icewraith]

If you're going with an initiator class, tacking on other stats to your melee weapon isn't as big a deal. Those kinds of bonus damage are more valuable when you're planning to dual-wield, which it sounds like we've eliminated?

You could for instance dump the three levels of swashbuckler and go straight warblade into CoCL/eternal blade, assuming you can pick up all the feats you want without adding a fighter dip.

If we're going courtblade with this guy, shadow blade won't work IIRC, it's dex to damage only with shadow hand weapons. If we're going dual-wield, instead of assassin's stance and blowing a feat on craven (that's three feats for 2d6+cl damage, blocked by crit immunity and immune to flanking and no craven if you become immune to fear, and you bravely run away whenever you fight a dragon) why not just pick up the white raven stance that adds initator level to damage when flanking (and you still get if it's a golem or undead or something uncrittable)? The main draw here is a solid per-hit damage bonus as long as you can flank reliably and take martial adept classes, and you pick it up from warblade levels instead of three feats.

Also, consider stormguard warrior, which is a tactical feat that gives you some interesting alternative options with your attacks of opportunity and iterative attacks that can add a ton of damage.

Note that if you want to power attack, you still need 13 STR.

edit: mostly ninja'd

[tricktroller]

Ok I like where you guys are going but I have some thoughts.

Warblade 1/Fighter 4/ Warblade 1/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Champion of Corellon 2/ Warblade 1/ Eternal blade 10

This way I spread out my initiator levels amongst my non iniator levels to take advantage of the higher maneuvers.

at 1st level I get sapphire nightmare blade, steel wind, stone bones, and punishing stance, at 6th I pick up emerald Razor and at 10th I pick up Bonecrusher. ending up as a 16th level initiator which means I don't get 9th level maneuvers but oh well.

Feats are as follows

Flaw1 Weapon Familiarity
Flaw2 Nobleman (needed to get all skills)
1st Weapon Focus Elven Thinblade (might swap this and knowledge devotion if starting at level 1)
F1 Dodge
F2 Expertise
3rd Knowledge Devotion
F4 Power Attack
6th Mounted Combat
9th ?


This is the only way I can see to get everything I want by 10th level. This guy should be tossing out mad amounts of damage even at low levels and only get nastier as he levels. I wish there was a way to get all the feats I need for this without losing initiator levels but I just don;t see it happening.

[Callin]

Tack on the Drow Fighter ACF (since you dont HAVE to be Drow to use it). With the Dex you got now no reason to wear heavy armor anyways.

[Icewraith]

No 9th level maneuvers is kind of a big deal if you get that far. Any way you can drop those last two levels of fighter? Fighter 3 really isn't doing you any good, and warblade 5 gets you a bonus feat that may or may not be useful to you.

[tricktroller]

do you lose heavy armor prof? also would it really matter if I did since I get it form the warblade too? Otherwise I won;t be able to take champion of corellon.

Unfortunately the bonus feat isnt one of the ones I have listed and so isnt one of the ones I need. I could do it without fighter 3-4 if I didn't take nobleman but then I would lose all knowledges as class skills and my RP feat.

[Callin]

Ok I like where you guys are going but I have some thoughts.

Warblade 1/Fighter 4/ Warblade 1/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Champion of Corellon 2/ Warblade 1/ Eternal blade 10

This way I spread out my initiator levels amongst my non iniator levels to take advantage of the higher maneuvers.

at 1st level I get sapphire nightmare blade, steel wind, stone bones, and punishing stance, at 6th I pick up emerald Razor and at 10th I pick up Bonecrusher. ending up as a 16th level initiator which means I don't get 9th level maneuvers but oh well.

Feats are as follows

Flaw1 Weapon Familiarity
Flaw2 Nobleman (needed to get all skills)
1st Weapon Focus Elven Thinblade (might swap this and knowledge devotion if starting at level 1)
F1 Dodge
F2 Expertise
3rd Knowledge Devotion
F4 Power Attack
6th Mounted Combat
9th ?

Not bad, I would SERIOUSLY try to talk to the DM about retraining your elf weapon profs Rapier and or Longsword for Weapon Familiarity. Fits the background and will save you a feat! As Tippy would say Chaos Shuffle the rest around so you have more feats to play with. (Do it, you need em lol)

Edit.. yea then dont take the ACF. I didnt look at that

[Icewraith]

Aside from dex to damage, what is CoCl doing for you that eternal blade won't do better?

Edit: and by that I mean it's getting you a reasonable damage bonus, but at the cost of at least one feat (mounted combat) if not more (dodge), lost initiator level, and even fewer martial maneuvers.

[tricktroller]

Flavor? Honesty the lay on hands will be next to useless the bonus feat will be alright but eh Champion's dex to damage and the fluff are what I like. Like I said I think it would be cool to have ole Corellon himself as my blade guide.

[tricktroller]

I understand that mechanically two levels and 3 feats for at max a +7 to damage isn't optimized especially for non twfing (pronounced twiffing)

[Icewraith]

It makes a bit more sense if you're sword-and boarding, so you've got a good chunk of damage even when you don't power attack. Also the class sort of gives a feat back, but I'm not sure what you'd want to spend it on.

Improved trip would be the way to go if you were going courtblade all the way up and getting the trip ability from exotic weapon master... wait...

Y'know, if you HAVE to take dodge, if you can get mobility from armor or one of the other ways to get mobility (there's a list somewhere) you could pick up the elusive target tactical feat with that CoCL level.

[Fouredged Sword]

Honestly, I would think that you should be able to hit +10 to damage from dex to damage. Dex to damage is good enough that it would then be practical to buy a tome, and you are likely to put a high score and your level points into it, so 22 natural, +6 item, and +4 tome, so 34, or a +12 mod.

+12 damage isn't great, but not horrid ether. I would look into some of the dodge replacement feats though, like desert wind dodge. Dodge is horrid, some of the others are less bad.

[Icewraith]

The thing with desert wind dodge is that it will require either another feat or items to power it, and the other dodge variants are IIRC better suited to skirmish or spring attack builds.

If you can find a way to get mobility, elusive target is hilarious and comes up often enough, especially for an elven blademaster who presumably spends some of his time fighting orc barbarian hordes (most of whom will have and use power attack, and most certainly their champions will).

[tricktroller]

why not mobility at 8th and then elusive target at 9th? That should qualify me for everything right? ALso +12 to damage sounds just fine ot me plus that will bump up my ac. and doing 1d8+1d6+10str +4 dex at 9th level to two targets or for each of two attacks ins;t too shabby before power attack. Plus on powerattack I can do up to -9 to get +18 to damage :D

[Icewraith]

Because you're feat starved as it is, there's a few ways to get mobility for free, and I cringe enough whenever someone has to burn a feat slot on it that I usually houserule dodge and mobility together as one feat.

Edit: If you can get your dm to let you retrain your racial proficiencies into weapon familiarity and give you dodge and mobility as a two-for-one deal, you will have freed up your later feat slots and your character will come together much more quickly. If you can make it happen, or your DM is willing to allow chaos shuffling (you also have those bow proficiencies to shuffle away), you'll be doing yourself a big favor.

[tricktroller]

is there a better feat to take for the build at 8th level? I can't think of one that is. If there isn't a better feat from the dodge, mounted combat, or combat expertise tree to take then I see no reason not to.

also in the AEG feat book I can take lightning reflexes and then I can take improved dodge which bumps it to +3 and works against all opponents. If i take superior dodge it adds a cumulative +4 bonus for a total of +7 dodge bonus against all enemies.

[tricktroller]

You aren't just Captain Elfy McElvenpants. You're Captain Elfy McElvenpants, Resident BadElf of Elfheim.

@Red Fel - Mind if I use this in my Sig?

[Fouredged Sword]

I would also consider seeing if you can get your DM to allow you to combine gloves of dex, gloves of the master strategist, and gloves of the balanced hand.

It would be really cool to switch between 2 handed fighting for strikes and TWFing for full attacks. IE: A light blade switching out for a thinblade for TWFing. You wouldn't even have to pick up TWFing feats unless you wanted that second iterative with your second weapon.

[tricktroller]

That will have to be something later on lol, more important to have the character done first

[Icewraith]

Well for starters, there's elusive target :smalltongue:

There might be something that keys off combat expertise that you like, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

With that dex mod, combat reflexes/karmic strike/robilar's might be a good option for later feats, assuming you get that far. If you had reach it would be a no-brainer, spend feats or dip a level in crusader to get thicket of blades and pick up improved trip with your CoCL bonus feat. Stormguard warrior gets ridiculous with karmic strike/robilar's, but you only have so many feats to work with.

[Red Fel]

@Red Fel - Mind if I use this in my Sig?

Quote away, my friend, quote away.

My issues with CoCL follow. As much as I love the class - and I do - it kind of stinks. Here's why.

First, it has massive feat taxes. Unreasonably massive. Not to mention that, technically, Improved Weapon Familiarity does not qualify you for EWP (thinblade or courtblade), which in my opinion is stupid. You might be able to negotiate that with a DM.

Second, what does the class actually get you? You get Dex-to-damage at second level. I see only... Thirteen ways to get Dex-to-damage on the X Stat to Y Bonus list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). That's nice. You also get Lay on Hands, which is meh, and a Dex and movement bonus in heavy armor, which frankly you shouldn't be using. And you can magic-charge your weapon, which is cute. And you get some bonus feats, which I'll acknowledge are nice, until you realize the severe limitations on those feats.

In short, I love the flavor, but I hate the outcome. Heck, Prestige Paladin gets you more, and it's a freaking Paladin. The only thing in this class that you seem to want, apart from the flavor, is the Dex-to-damage. Heck, are you even going to use Mounted Combat? Or Dodge, really?

You'll notice I mentioned you not wanting heavy armor. Why? Well, think about heavy armor. You take a bunch of penalties, including Dex penalty and encumbrance, for a minor AC boost. Once you're enhancing your armor, taking mithral and using maneuvers and the like, that numerical difference in AC becomes meaningless - but the penalties remain. Why do you want to take levels in a class to decrease those penalties, when you can simply pay extra for a different material that solves the problem?

Further, how does it even make sense to say, "Look at my character, he is a dexterous, light-footed dancing swordsman in heavy plate mail?" That way lies madness, friend.

Now, if you want CoCL for flavor, I understand completely. A month or so ago, I wrestled with this very issue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311120). (Shameless plug.) I realized then that the boosts I got from CoCL simply were not worth the price, in terms of lost class levels and feat tax. If you come to a different conclusion, that's your play style.

But I advise you to think about all the other ways you could be reaching your goal. Check out the X Stat to Y Bonus list I linked above. See if there's a more practical way to get what you want.

Stay Elven, my friend.

[Icewraith]

I was going to make similar points regarding armor, but he doesn't take enough levels of CoCL to get the armor bonuses anyways. We got him down to a 2-level dip, which gets dex to damage, gives him a (limited choice) bonus feat to repay part of the feat tax, and gives him the flavor he seems to really want.

[tricktroller]

So is there a better way to do what I am going for? In all honesty I am already sacrificing some power for style points with this guy, but that is what I want. Having mounted combat makes sense for the character as a Noble especially a prince.

I mean really the way it is built at the moment is pretty cool, I was pretty happy with it being a fighter 6/ewm1/CoCL 10/ Fighter 2/ 1?

It did some things that this build will not be able to do, like combat instincts which is an awesome feat from AEG that lets you hit opponents if they miss your ac by a margin of your dex plus base attack bonus.

However this guy will do somethings that the fighter won't. So either iteration of this guy will be pretty sweet. The eternal blade getting to take an extra turn once an encounter is pretty spiffy though I doubt this guy will ever get to that level. I doubt I will ever see much beyond level 15 if I ever see him that far.

[tricktroller]

I mean really the style of the guy and being online as soon as possible is what I would like. Being a melee badass using a sword and board would be fun, being able to crush enemies when necessary is awesome.

However, this guy should be the epitome of Elf as I have said before, and I will probably be playing him from 3rd level up.

[Icewraith]

Well, thanks to the flaws you've got most of your character stuff online by third level. You'll be a know-it-all, knowledge devotion elf swordmaster with weird elven swords and some neat tricks in combat from the warblade levels. Once you go EWM you can sword and board with the thinblade (although you could do it from the start without giving up too much, thinblade rolls a d8 instead of a d10 Courtblade and until you up your strength bonus to +2 (score of 14) or higher you get no benefit from two-handing until you get power attack in the first place).

Just remember that to qualify for Power Attack you need 13 strength, and the last set of stats I saw yours was 12- you'll need to bump it up at 4th or shuffle your stats to qualify for Power Attack.

Edit: If it was me I'd drop the last 2 fighter levels and champion of CL for more Warblade levels. If you don't have to spend feats to qualify for CoCl you can have power attack and knowledge devotion at third level. You'd even have a free feat slot with that second fighter level to spend on something like two-weapon fighting (assuming you won't be able to get glove of the master strategist AND balanced hand from your DM). If you have the skill points to spare, a wand chamber in your sword, a wand of Wraithstrike, and cross-class skill ranks in use magic device will (usually) make the dual Thinblades + EWM + full power attack + TWF work.

[Scow2]

I'm not sure if it's brought up, but you can't go Exotic Weapon Master through Weapon Familiarity (Improved or otherwise), because Exotic Weapon Master requires proficiency in an exotic weapon. Weapon Familiarity merely increases the number of Martial weapons you're proficient with.

And, if Elven Fighter is your concept, might as well go Champion of Corellon (See if you can get the mounted combat requirement waived)

[Icewraith]

Either he already got it houseruled, or it's a fine enough point that we were pretty sure he could get it houseruled.

Also, to correct a couple points I missed...

1: EWM has specific language allowing weapon familiarity (the specific example is dwarves and urgroshes/waraxes) to qualify as Exotic Weapon Proficiency for taking the class.

2: the way uncanny blow is written is a tad confusing.

When you wield a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, you double your strength bonus instead of multiplying by 1.5. If you have power attack, you treat the weapon as two handed for determining the damage bonus.

I paraphrase slightly, but the point is that there are two statements and two separate sentances, the benefits of which have no bearing on each other. Note that you can already get -1:+2 power attack by two-handing a one handed (but not light) melee weapon. The second statement lets you one-hand a one-handed exotic melee weapon and still get -1:+2 power attack.

Probably your best option is sword-and-buckler, so you can two-hand your thinblade if you want and lose your shield bonus or keep your shield bonus and lose your extra damage. Before EWM, if your strength score is still 13 or below you probably want to buckler and thinblade anyways, because a +1 str bonus x 1.5 is 1.5, rounding back down to 1.

Edit: all things being the same, taking punishing stance into consideration, I'd rather roll 1d8+1d6 +mods for a -1 net AC with a buckler than roll 1d10+1d6+mods for a -2 net AC, especially at lower levels.

Double Edit: The thing is that if he takes mostly warblade levels, his character will (most likely) be capable of far more butt-kicking than if he took fighter levels and two levels of CoCL, and the changes will be most noticeable in the levels he's about to go through (assuming they start at level three and he starts as war 1/ftr 2). If they only get to level once, would you rather tack on fighter three or another warblade level, and additionally be stuck with dodge (instead of Power Attack) and have mounted combat locked in for your 6th level feat instead of something more useful?

Wow... thinking about it like that, war 1/ftr 2/war 2/ewm1/war 4/eternal blade 10 is going to be way more fun in the combats you're most likely to get to than war 1/ftr 4/ewm1/war 2/CoCL2/eternal blade 10, and you're not stuck with dodge, combat expertise, and mounted combat for feats.

[Heliomance]

Ok how about this. The AEG feat book has a feat called Superior finesse. requires int and dex 13+ combat expertise and weapon finesse, it lets you add dex instead of strength.

That book is unbelievably broken. IIRC, there's a feat in there, attainable at around 15th level, that reads, approximately, "any enemy damaged by your sneak attack dies." No save, no nothing. You sneak attack someone, they die. End of story.

[tricktroller]

you cant get it until you have 12 BAB so you would need to be 16th level if you were straight rogue and it takes 6 feats. By that level almost everything is immune to SA anyways..... However, I agree some of the things in the book are completely borked and I don't use those.

Ok so go with these stats
Str 18
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 12
Cha 16

Con is a little low but warblade HP should make up for that.

With the thinblade and punishing stance with a buckler I can do as you, swap to two handed if I need the extra damage or keep the ac and do 2 points less. Most likely I will not be using it two handed so I am thinking I will be using a heavy shield.

With no levels in champion of corellon I could take more levels in either class and end up with 9th level maneuvers.

Also without CoCL I can take the drow fighter ACF

However, I was thinking about making him into a total dex character, using dex for damage instead of strength through superior finesse and doing it that way. Maybe take shadowblade if I ever have room for it.

[Heliomance]

By that level almost everything is immune to SA anyways.....

Rubbish. Undead and constructs are the only immune things you fight with any regularity. Making anything else immune requires giving them heavy fort on their gear, and if the DM's taking enemies straight out of the MonMan, he's not going to bother to gear them up in most cases.

[Scow2]

Rubbish. Undead and constructs are the only immune things you fight with any regularity. Making anything else immune requires giving them heavy fort on their gear, and if the DM's taking enemies straight out of the MonMan, he's not going to bother to gear them up in most cases.There are other ways to gain immunity to Sneak Attack. There are no monsters of consequence that aren't immune to it or capable of mitigating it in some way.

It requires an attack roll, 15-18 levels, and all your feats. By the time a rogue can use it, the wizard has plenty of "No Save Just Die" spells (Or worse)

[tricktroller]

There are other ways to gain immunity to Sneak Attack. There are no monsters of consequence that aren't immune to it or capable of mitigating it in some way.

It requires an attack roll, 15-18 levels, and all your feats. By the time a rogue can use it, the wizard has plenty of "No Save Just Die" spells (Or worse)

Yup, this.


However, that is not the point of this thread.

[Icewraith]

Keep in mind, if you go thinblade/buckler and pick up gloves of the balanced hand or the two-weapon fighting feat, you have the option of pulling out a second thinblade (or lightblade, but no power attack bonuses, or morningstar or something that you should carry for opponents with DR) for nasty full attacks vs low-ac targets.

Also, if you pick up dancing or raging mongoose, you can make the free attacks with each weapon without paying two-weapon fighting penalties (as long as you intiate the boost before your regular attack(s) for the round), due to the way the boosts are written.

You also have a hand free to swing on ropes, use items, climb ladders, stop yourself from falling off cliffs without losing your weapon, and fight while maintaining your shield bonus to AC and carrying a portable macguffin, weapon, statue, jewelry, or other weapon-sized magical item or treasure.

It really depends on the sort of campaign your DM runs, but having a hand free at the cost of 1 AC can be invaluable (or it can never come up).

[tricktroller]

I suppose you do make a very serious point there. plus I can always take the shield focus spec mastery feats from the feat book to bump that from +1 to +7 for 3 feats. Then take shield ward and apply it to my touch ac as well.

[Icewraith]

Generally speaking, feats that add flat numerical bonuses to things aren't so hot... Usually you want to look for feats that add capability rather than just numbers. Or if they add numbers, let it be big numbers for minimal investment (knowledge devotion) instead of every feat you get from 9 to 18 for +7 to ac... combat expertise gets you up to +5 (granted there is a downside) for 1 feat and opens up some more options for you to take other feats with.

Furthermore, optimizing AC or to-hit generally doesn't do a whole lot more than make things harder on your party members. (Experienced) DMs usually design monsters from the perspective of "this hits the hardest to hit character on X roll and gets hit by the hardest hitting character on Y roll" and go backwards from there to figure out how much attack bonus and STR it needs and how much AC it should have.

Combat reflexes/Robilar's/Karmic Strike, tactical feats (Stormguard Warrior!), maybe leap attack to double your power attack damage on a charge if you make a fairly trivial jump check (there's a Tiger Claw maneuver that lets you full attack on a charge)... even two-weapon fighting at least gives you the option of making extra attacks with an off-hand weapon (technically it just significantly reduces the penalty, but it reduces the penalty to the point of making the action semi-usable instead of worthless). There's also martial study/stance if you find a maneuver you really want but can't get at a particular level.

Edit: for instance...

combat reflexes gives you extra AoOs equal to your dex mod, which is significant
karmic strike and robilar's penalize your AC or give enemies bonuses to hit you, but whenever someone swings on you (Robilar's) or hits you (Karmic Strike), you get an AoO against them. If they swing on you and connect you get 2 AoOs.
Stormguard warrior lets you forego making AoOs for a cumulative +4 to hit and damage against the target that provoked on the next round
There is a high level setting sun stance that gives you an aoO if an opponent misses you due to a miss chance.
There are a number of magic items, buff spells, and class abilities that grant miss chances.
There is a feat (Riposte) that gives you an AoO 1/round against somone who misses you when you're using Combat Expertise

Now it's very difficult to get all of these options on one build, but it's entirely possible to get some of them, especially Combat reflexes, Robilar's and Stormguard Warrior (there's a prerequisite feat for Stormguard Warrior but you can take it with the level 5 Warblade bonus feat, it's on the very limited list).

So if you know an enemy will full attack you on the next round, you could do something like this with the full combo....

Combat Expertise gives you +5 to AC and -5 to hit
You take an effective -8 to AC to use Robilar's and Karmic Strike (-3 effective if using combat expertise, -1 if fighting defensively)
You have Stormguard Warrior
You have your miss chance going and are in that Setting Sun stance


If the enemy swings on you, "you can forego the AoO and get +4 stacking to hit and damage on your next turn"
If the enemy hits your AC, " "
If the enemy misses your ac and you have riposte, you gain an additional " " the first time he misses
If the enemy hits your AC but misses due to your miss chance, " "

So the first time he misses you, +8, +4 after that
Any time he hits you, +8
Any time he beats your ac but fails your miss chance, +8

The point is, you've probably got some pretty hefty bonuses to attack and damage no matter what the result of the enemy's attacks are. If he swings on you three times you get +12 from robilar's alone. So, on your next turn, you power attack for full, full attack, maybe initiate a maneuver that gives you extra attacks (Combat Rhythm is Diamond Mind 7 and lets you attack until you miss), maybe attack with two thinblades that get -1:+2 power attack, and turn the enemy into swiss cheese.

That's going pretty extreme with the concept though. You can end up with the core of that at least with the feats available to you at 9th and later, assuming the game goes on for a very long time. If it doesn't? You've already got your baseline concept online at third.

[Tysis]

I definitely recommend using a valenar double scimitar and taking all 5 levels of Revenant Blade from Eberron Campaign setting if you just want to use elf weapons and aren't dead set on just the ones from RoW.