RAW Portable Hole plasma cannon?

[Eaglejarl]

First off, roll with me on this one. This is an idea I'm kicking around for a story I'm writing; the world works under very strict RAW (3.5, primarily based on what's in http://www.d20srd.org/), but anything that magic / D&D rules don't explicitly cover works by real world physics.


I was thinking...unlike Enlarge, Shrink Item does not specify that the object will stop expanding if the container is too small. Therefore, under RAW, when you say the command word the thing regains full size and mass, period. Doesn't matter how big the space is, it's going back to full size.

Also, RAW says: "Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed." Note that it does not say anything about "the item needs to be within the sound of the person's voice" or anything like that. Per RAW, you speak the word and the item activates, period. It could be on a different plane and it would still work.


Ok, assume that we have an essentially unlimited source of Shrink Item (at will item, whatever). Take a vat of water, SI it. Throw it in a Portable Hole. Repeat until the Hole is full up, ensuring that all the items are using the same command word. Now pick up the Hole (causing the extradimensional space to seal itself) and speak the command word. Boom, all the water returns to full size and mass. Given enough water, the atoms will be forced so close together they will actually fuse, converting to nuclear plasma.

Now, put the Hole against a wall and stand back. All of that plasma comes blasting out as a one-shot Energy Strike Of Doom.

This doesn't actually work, however. Since SI shrinks an object to 1/4096th the volume, that means that the water comes back 4096 times denser than normal water...nowhere near enough to induce fusion. Not a problem.

Remember when we were shrinking those vats back in the beginning? Take the Shrunk vats and throw them in an empty vat. Repeat until the vat is full of Shrunken vats. Now Shrink the vat of Shrunken Vats (*). Call the resulting object a vat^2. Keep repeating this process until you have filled your Portable Hole with vat^2. When you speak the command word, all of the shrunken vat^2 and vat objects simultaneously unshrink. You now have water at (4096*4096=) 16,777,216 times the density. Hmm...that's probably enough to induce fusion, but I'm not sure. No problem, let's fill the hole with vat^3 objects. Ok, there we go. A density of 68 billion grams / cm^3 is definitely enough.

This would become a lot more feasible if you used one of the pockets in a Belt of Hidden Pouches instead of a Portable Hole -- the much smaller volume allows you to achieve the same density with far fewer shrunken vats. The THOOOOM! at the end would not be as satisfying, though.


Is there any reason why this wouldn't work under RAW? More to the important, does anyone here know enough physics to be able to say how much water you would actually need?

If you're interested the story is here: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9669819/1/The-Two-Year-Emperor

The first 15 chapters are up; so far the response is positive.


(*) Someone will surely point out that SI affects "a nonmagical object" and will therefore question if you can Shrink a Shrunk vat. Yes, you can: Shrunken vats are not magical items, they are simply under the influence of a spell.

[OldTrees1]

How much water can a portable hole hold before the pressure damage (Stormwrack?) tears the bag?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think you're breaking normal stacking rules there. The shrunken vats have already been, well, shrunk-- I don't think you can affect them with shrink item again.

[Chronos]

Multiple castings of Shrink Item don't stack.

[Eaglejarl]

Multiple castings of Shrink Item don't stack.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm

I don't see that in the spell description. Is it covered in a different rule somewhere?


As to the "how much before the Hole rips" question -- my understanding of a PH is that the phase-spider cloth, when activated, opens an entrance to an extradimensional space -- in other words, the cloth is not the container, simply the device which creates the opening to the container. When the cloth is folded up the opening does not exist; you have a completely sealed pocket universe; there is nowhere for heat to go and you can't rip the fabric of the universe just by adding mass. That's the interpretation I'm using, anyway, unless there is something in RAW that explicitly says it doesn't work that way.

[Eaglejarl]

Ah, here we go:


Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Different Bonus Names
The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant
Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.

Multiple Mental Control Effects
- not relevant -

You're right that RAI very clearly intends that Shrink Item should not stack. However, by a very strict reading of RAW....




Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Different Bonus Names
The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus.


SI is not a bonus or a penalty, so none of this applies.



Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths


It is the same effect, but it's not at different strengths. This doesn't apply.



Same Effect with Differing Results


The results don't differ, so this doesn't apply.



One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant
Multiple Mental Control Effects


This isn't mind control and these aren't different, mutually-canceling effects, so these don't apply.


So, yeah. Absolutely should not work according to RAI and any sensible DM would rule against it. By the strictest reading of the rules, however, it's legal as far as I can tell.

[BWR]

I don't see how you can use the command word on something that is sealed in another dimension.
Even if you could, wouldn't this ruin the PH rather than cause fusion?
Wouldn't using a command word be handled along the lines of magic items, meaning you could only dismiss the effect of one effect per round?

The only rules on stacking I could see in the SRD were about bonuses to rolls. So if you go by the idea that 'if it's not specifically forbidden, it's allowed', then yes, you can stack Shrink Item.

[(Un)Inspired]

I really like this idea. Really. A lot. This idea.

It appeals to the same part of my nature as the anti-osmium bomb.

The problem is see is time. Even if you have an at will item of Shrink Item how long will it take you to create vats^3?

Days?
Months?
Years?

It's a hullova lot of castings at 5 seconds a pop...

[Chronos]

If you want an explicit rule, Reduce Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm) says

Multiple magical effects that reduce size do not stack.
Yeah, it's from a different spell, but there aren't any qualifiers or restrictions on that.

[Eaglejarl]

I don't see how you can use the command word on something that is sealed in another dimension.
Even if you could, wouldn't this ruin the PH rather than cause fusion?
Wouldn't using a command word be handled along the lines of magic items, meaning you could only dismiss the effect of one effect per round?


I addressed these above:

According to the exact RAW that I can find on command words, nothing says that a command word needs to be within earshot of the thing it should activate. It doesn't even say it needs to be in the same dimension. So yes -- by RAI or any sane interpretation it shouldn't work. But going by the exact Rules As Written, it does.

Let's be precise: the magic item called a "Portable Hole" is not actually a hole. It is a piece of magical cloth made from phase spider silk. Under certain conditions it creates an opening to an extradimensional space. The space is NOT the same as the cloth. The cloth is NOT part of the extradimensional space. The cloth is not even the opening to the extradimension space, it is a magic item that creates the opening when used. The opening, and the space, are separate entities from the cloth. Therefore, the cloth is not affected by anything in the extradimensional space unless the rules explicitly say it is.

An extradimensional space is a pocket universe. Like any universe, it cannot be affected by anything you put inside it (*). So, yes, put as much mass (water) in as you want; it won't rupture the sides of the universe. Put as much heat (plasma) in as you want; it won't burn the sides of the universe.



(*) The exception to this is if the magic item description explicitly says it can. The only examples I can think of are: Bags of Holding can be pierced from the inside, and BoH / PH have bad effects if you nest them. These are not characteristics of extradimensional spaces, they are characteristics of Bags of Holding / Portable Holes. If they were characteristics of all extradimensional spaces then they would either be mentioned in the description of every ED space (Handy Haversack, Rope Trick, etc) or they would be lifted out into their own rule section that all ED spaces could refer to.

[Eaglejarl]

If you want an explicit rule, Reduce Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm) says

Yeah, it's from a different spell, but there aren't any qualifiers or restrictions on that.

Damnit.

Yep, I'm busted. Ok, thanks for pointing it out.

Rats, and it was going so well too. :smallfrown:

[Phelix-Mu]

I was thinking of a similar system, actually. Getting the total volume of water right would still be a problem, and we're probably going to need to use Xoriat or the like for time shenanigans. Or some planar bubble cheapness.

Elements:

- Hollow sphere at least 18" in diameter, made of riverine (Stormwrack)

- Ring gates item (DMG): Ring Gate A is in hand, Ring Gate B is inside the sphere

- Some kind of permanent dispelling field or AMF to effect the inside of the sphere (leaning towards a CL-pumped dispelling screen, which is in some book or other) positioned across the opening of Ring Gate B.

- Shrunken ice containers full of water, an arbitrarily large number of them.

- Enveloping pits.

So, here is how it works, at least if I can iron out some kinks.

1.) Take an arbitrarily large amount of water and compress it using shrink item.

2.) Store water in enveloping pits. When one pit is full, close it and stick it in another pit, which we now fill with shrunken water. Repeat until we meet whatever arbitrary benchmark we want to meet.

3.) Take the outermost enveloping pit and tie it to a stone weighing (100lbs-weight of enveloping pit plus rope).

4.) Shove stone through Ring Gate A.

5.) Stone + enveloping pit emerges through Ring Gate B and collides with dispelling/disjunction screen effect (I'm sure there's an effect like this somewhere).

6.) Broken/dispelled enveloping pit disgorges it's shrunken water and the other pits.

7.) Nothing inside the sphere can leave the sphere, because the ring gate has met it's daily max weight limit.

8.) Disgorged shrunken water and sundry enveloping pits are dispelled (right, this is the shaky part).

9.) Eventually, the 18" diameter sphere of riverine has an arbitrarily large amount of water in it, subject to arbitrarily large pressures.

10.) Next day, Ring Gate A can disgorge 100lbs of water....hmm, see this is where the plan is pretty much on life support.

Alright, so clearly I need some assistance here. I think some or all of this might work for some TO coolness, but suggestions are welcome. Maybe the OP has some ideas, so we can piggyback the parts of our two plans that aren't broken?

[Chronos]

Replace the riverine sphere with a Resilient Sphere spell, and just let the duration expire.

And the spell you want on the Ring Gate exit is Dispelling Screen, or its Greater version.

My only question remaining is whether a dispelled hole actually spews out its contents.

[BWR]

So yes -- by RAI or any sane interpretation it shouldn't work. But going by the exact Rules As Written, it does.

Strict RAW doesn't necessarily allow this interpretation. IIRC there are no exact rules on what happens when you are dead either, so once you hit -10 you can still act and talk and whatnot. Would you argue that is ok, even by strict RAW?
There are so many situations where the rules are silent, you will not be able to avoid making calls.
Will all characters in this game walk around in a fog, because you get a -1 /10 feet penalty to Spot checks? It becomes impossible to see a mountain on the horizon because the penalties are too great.

Edit: not to mention there are no rules about fusion and plasma in the srd, so that's right out.

[Phelix-Mu]

Replace the riverine sphere with a Resilient Sphere spell, and just let the duration expire.

And the spell you want on the Ring Gate exit is Dispelling Screen, or its Greater version.

My only question remaining is whether a dispelled hole actually spews out its contents.

Hmm. I suppose it might not empty out. But the spell should have some effect, right? Or maybe you just can't access the extradimensional space while the dispel lasts.

So, I guess with the resilient sphere, when the spell expires, the water, super-compressed, expands to fill it's normal volume, with potentially comical results.

[Mutazoia]

I addressed these above:

According to the exact RAW that I can find on command words, nothing says that a command word needs to be within earshot of the thing it should activate. It doesn't even say it needs to be in the same dimension. So yes -- by RAI or any sane interpretation it shouldn't work. But going by the exact Rules As Written, it does.

Let's be precise: the magic item called a "Portable Hole" is not actually a hole. It is a piece of magical cloth made from phase spider silk. Under certain conditions it creates an opening to an extradimensional space. The space is NOT the same as the cloth. The cloth is NOT part of the extradimensional space. The cloth is not even the opening to the extradimension space, it is a magic item that creates the opening when used. The opening, and the space, are separate entities from the cloth. Therefore, the cloth is not affected by anything in the extradimensional space unless the rules explicitly say it is.

An extradimensional space is a pocket universe. Like any universe, it cannot be affected by anything you put inside it (*). So, yes, put as much mass (water) in as you want; it won't rupture the sides of the universe. Put as much heat (plasma) in as you want; it won't burn the sides of the universe.



(*) The exception to this is if the magic item description explicitly says it can. The only examples I can think of are: Bags of Holding can be pierced from the inside, and BoH / PH have bad effects if you nest them. These are not characteristics of extradimensional spaces, they are characteristics of Bags of Holding / Portable Holes. If they were characteristics of all extradimensional spaces then they would either be mentioned in the description of every ED space (Handy Haversack, Rope Trick, etc) or they would be lifted out into their own rule section that all ED spaces could refer to.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeel...technically a PH is nondimensional space, not extradimensional which makes it a little tricker. A BoH is actually a gate, nesting the BoH inside a PH cuts it off from it's plane and things get very unstable. SO if a BoH can't maintain an interdimensional link inside a PH I should be hard pressed to think of how a simple command word could penetrate. Besides I'm pretty sure the item triggered and the triggeree both have to be on the same plane and most likely with in earshot....other wise just thing of all the magic items that would be firing of at the speed of light just from all the random conversation of the comsos. (If an infinite amount of monkeys with an infinite amount of typewrites can eventually bang out the script to Romeo and Juliet, with an infinite amount of people talking in an infinite amount of languages in an infinite amount of dimensions, every command word ever devised is going to get said every .3 seconds...on a slow day)

[Zweisteine]

There are a few things that I didn't see mentioned in the first few posts that would keep this from working.

1. You can't un-shrink the vats from outside of the hole, because they are in a different dimension. Solution: put someone inside with them, with suicide orders. Make a construct of some sort. Better solution: Shrink item wears off, and the water expands on its own. May require extending the spell, or persisting it.

3. A DM might rule that a portable hole would rupture like an overfilled bag of holding. This works in RAW, because Rule 0 appears in actual books.

2. This would not work under RAW for one clear reason: there are no rules for nuclear fusion. Don't consider this a breach of Suspension of Disbelief, consider it a continuation of Suspension of Physics. Of course, the basic premise of the idea is that D&D has nuclear fusion, so this might not turn out well. Just don't expect a DM to play along.

[Phelix-Mu]

I was mainly just trying to achieve some arbitrary level of super-compressed matter, because, well, man that sure would be nifty. Fusion clearly isn't a thing in-game cause, well, neither are atoms. There is a guideline that suggests that, unless the game says otherwise, things in-game function as in the real world. The problem is that there are lots of effects in-game that make it clear that matter and energy really can't work in a way resembling real life.

[Kioras]

Sure it could work, but i hope you are a construct or undead doing so.

From my rough calculation, shrinking it down 3 times and filling the portable hole with just water is equal to 145,346,311,309,581 gallons of water. Roughly 131 cubic miles of water.

Better start casting.

[malonkey1]

What I'd do is cast Time Stop and an arbitrary number of Implosion spells into a demiplane with a time trait that slows it enough for you to chuck an obscene amount of matter in (or find a way to make Time Stop last for an arbitrarily long amount of time) and let it stew. Exit the demiplane and wait. Open a portal when you need it, and use a Telkinesis or Telekinetic sphere to move the cluster of implosions out of the plane. The Implosions deal their obscene damage, plus igniting a brief thermonuclear fusion reaction in the mass you dropped in.

[Heliomance]

Strict RAW doesn't necessarily allow this interpretation. IIRC there are no exact rules on what happens when you are dead either, so once you hit -10 you can still act and talk and whatnot. Would you argue that is ok, even by strict RAW?

Common misconception. The rules about Death Attacks state:

In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points.

This means that your non-lethal damage (at least 0) exceeds your hit points (-10). This means this rule comes into effect:

when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

Now we need to go and look at the definition of unconscious:

Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

Definition of helpless:

A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier).

And then from the section on ability damage, we have this:

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

So being dead does in fact prevent you from acting. It does not, however, prevent you from taking purely mental actions - so it's only a bit of an inconvenience for psions.

[shaikujin]

Very interesting idea!
If it works, how much damage/range can it do?


I had a slightly different idea that uses enveloping pits that hopefully doesn't mix real life and D&D physics.

Build a small stronghold in the enveloping pits, Mount as many as possible, those magical fire/lightning cannons in one of the books (in stormwrack or explorer handbook I think). Should be similar enough to plasma cannons/energy weapons/PPCs.

Have constructs man these.

On a suit of armor, paste 1 of these on left & right shoulder, left & right chest, left & right knee etc.

Leave a small pinhole sized gap in the opening so that they can hear your commands.

On your command ("Alpha Strike!!"), have the constructs widen the openings just enough for the ballista/cannon sized bolts/projectiles to pass through (5 inches should be suffcient I think). Then fire them cannons.

Walking siege weapon :)

[Heliomance]

Been reading, got to chapter 13. You might be interested to know that there is actually a pretty much permanent way to get rid of someone in D&D. Flesh to Stone, Soften Earth and Stone, Purify Food and Drink. Soften Earth and Stone turns the statue into clay, add a little water or cast Soften Earth and Stone again to make mud, then Purify Food and Drink on the mud leaves you with pure water. If you drink that, or empty it into a river, no-one's ever managing to collect that water again to try and reverse the process. However, Flesh to Stone explicitly doesn't kill them, so they're not dead and so can't be resurrected.

Wish or Miracle might be able to bring them back, but it's certainly not in the defined uses of them.

[Legendxp]

If your argument contains this statement, or some variation of, then it has defaulted to "Rule 0" and is completely illegitimate.


"It doesn't say you can't do this"

EXAMPLE(1): It doesn't say you can't hide behind a tower shield to grant you and your equipment (and thus the shield) concealment.
EXAMPLE(2): It doesn't say you can't use a chicken infested commoner to cause nuclear fusion by creating 1,000,000,000,000 chickens in one second.
EXAMPLE(3): It doesn't say you can't take a free action to drop prone, when falling, to safely and immediately teleport to the ground.

REASON: It is impossible for a book to have planned contingencies for every possible fictional outcome in a game.

[TuggyNE]

If your argument contains this statement, or some variation of, then it has defaulted to "Rule 0" and is completely illegitimate.


"It doesn't say you can't do this"

EXAMPLE(1): It doesn't say you can't hide behind a tower shield to grant you and your equipment (and thus the shield) concealment.
EXAMPLE(2): It doesn't say you can't use a chicken infested commoner to cause nuclear fusion by creating 1,000,000,000,000 chickens in one second.
EXAMPLE(3): It doesn't say you can't take a free action to drop prone, when falling, to safely and immediately teleport to the ground.

Normally I would agree with that principle, but the first and third of those examples, and to a lesser extent the second, are bad, since there is not merely a lack of rules preventing those, but actual rules explicitly allowing them in combination. To wit, a tower shield explicitly can give total cover, and cover of any sort is explicitly sufficient to make a Hide check, which can explicitly prevent you and all your equipment from being seen or targeted; a spell component pouch explicitly allows you to draw from it as a free action, free actions can explicitly be taken an indefinite and rather large number of times per round, and Chicken Infested explicitly turns half of those attempts into chickens, giving an indefinite and moderately large number of chickens per round; and dropping prone is explicitly a free action that explicitly lands you on the ground with no mention of falling.

Not, indeed, that any of these should be allowed (least of all nuclear fusion), but the reason for their disallowal is not that they are attempting to exploit a lack of rules, per se, but that they are exploiting flawed rules that failed to consider combinations. And simply disallowing all combinations that are not explicitly called out as working is not the correct answer either, since there are gazillions of perfectly workable and unexceptionable combinations that would get the axe. Can a wizard know both acid breath and analyze dweomer? Well, they can learn either one of those spells alone, but is it stated somewhere that they can learn both of them? How about alarm and greater alarm? Mass bear's endurance and circle dance? For that matter, how many ways to qualify for prestige classes are there: just the ones the example characters use?

In short, everything interesting in D&D technically includes "it doesn't say I can't"; the problem really comes when you lack anything that says you can.

[Eaglejarl]

Please keep in mind what I said at the beginning:

This is for a story I'm writing. The goal is to let cool things happen so long as there is not a specific "not allowed" from the actual rules on the page. In this case, as Chronos pointed out, there is: Shrink Item doesn't stack, so you can't get the density needed.

The world of the story can be thought of like this: real life physics is the base case. D&D rules were layered on top of that; anything that the RAW addresses works by RAW. Anything that RAW doesn't mention works by physics. And I'm taking a very strict interpretation of RAW.

[Drachasor]

There are factors to consider here -- assuming your D&D world actually has atoms and real life physics.

1. The strength of the containment is a non-trivial factor. We KNOW portable holes can rupture (place a bag of holding in them). So you can't presume it can withstand an infinite amount of pressure/force.

2. We don't know how the walls of a portable hole react to energy. They are block, so presumably they absorb at least visible light. It's possible they absorb all such energy and it is released into the astral plane. I assume they don't just keep holding more and more energy, otherwise filling up the hole with continual light sources and closing it would result in energy build-up.

3. We don't know the amount of force unshrinking something generates. Enlarge Person hints that there are limits to the power of such magic. It is probably unreasonable to assume the immense energies needed for fusion are readily available. This magical force pushing the atoms together will be opposed by the electromagnetic force and their own kinetic energy keeping them apart. When those two forces equal, assuming no rupture, you'll reach a steady-state.

Of course, how dissipating magical energy handles such a steady state is an open question.

I'll do the calculations later, but I really doubt there'd be remotely enough energy available for fusion anyway.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

I do not know enough physics to do the math on this, but the scenario proposed (portable hole filled with 4096x its volume in shrunken water/buckets) makes me think of a few things:

If we are willing to (probably) destroy our portable hole:
As the fluid expands, what temperature will it reach?
At what temperature will it undergo hydrolysis, producing O2 and H2 gas?
At what temperature/pressure will those start to undergo fusion?
If the hole actually fills with plasma, what will keep the person opening the hole from being incinerated when the plasma comes out? Remember that portable holes only work when laid flat on the ground.

If we want to keep our hole:
Why not wait until the hole is open to expand the water, generating a 100 square ft cannon of almost 116,000 cubic meters of water?

[Eldan]

There are factors to consider here -- assuming your D&D world actually has atoms and real life physics.

Just what I wanted to say. The OP is taking some liberties here, namely assuming that some specific parts of real world physics, namely atoms, work the same in D&D. Who says they do? Who says there even are atoms? D&D physics by RAW are already very different from anything in the real world. There's no maximum speed or minimum temperature. There is energy that instantly heals all wounds. There are four elements that make up everything and you can go talk to them.

Water could just be compressible in D&D. Plasma may not exist in D&D. Fusion may not exist, since stars could just be portals to the elemental plane of radiance.

[Drachasor]

I do not know enough physics to do the math on this, but the scenario proposed (portable hole filled with 4096x its volume in shrunken water/buckets) makes me think of a few things:

If we are willing to (probably) destroy our portable hole:
As the fluid expands, what temperature will it reach?
At what temperature will it undergo hydrolysis, producing O2 and H2 gas?
At what temperature/pressure will those start to undergo fusion?
If the hole actually fills with plasma, what will keep the person opening the hole from being incinerated when the plasma comes out? Remember that portable holes only work when laid flat on the ground.

If we want to keep our hole:
Why not wait until the hole is open to expand the water, generating a 100 square ft cannon of almost 116,000 cubic meters of water?

Well, you run into weird problems, honestly. For instance, water is pretty darn resistant to being shrunk down. You'd need a pressure of about 21,500 bar (21,500 times atmospheric pressure at sea level) to get it that small.

That's A LOT. More than we can do with modern technology to a reasonable quantity by a factor of maybe 3 or 4, I believe.

However, it is far, far less than the internal pressure of a star. The Sun has about 340 BILLION times more pressure at its center than atmospheric.

Still, it is a lot. Hmm, portable holes work out kind if nice for the next bit a math. In pascals (100,000 PA = 1 bar), the weight you'd need over a portable hole to equal X pascals of pressure is ~X (technically ~1.07X) at Earth's surface (due to gravity). So you'd need over 2.15 billion kg of weight sitting on the portable hole to contain all that water. This is about 100 times more the largest modern skyscraper (and about 1000 times more than the Empire State building).

Frankly, in a realistic setting, I think something would break if you tried this.

[Drachasor]

Just what I wanted to say. The OP is taking some liberties here, namely assuming that some specific parts of real world physics, namely atoms, work the same in D&D. Who says they do? Who says there even are atoms? D&D physics by RAW are already very different from anything in the real world. There's no maximum speed or minimum temperature. There is energy that instantly heals all wounds. There are four elements that make up everything and you can go talk to them.

Water could just be compressible in D&D. Plasma may not exist in D&D. Fusion may not exist, since stars could just be portals to the elemental plane of radiance.

Well, in D&D we wouldn't know if there's a maximum speed. In game terms that speed is so far beyond what the rules imagine as even remotely possible that it wouldn't come up. Minimum temperature is a bit different, but I can't think of anything off-hand where evidence for that would come up.

Hmm, if we knew more about whether the magic that animates golems or undead also generated heat, we could begin to explore these questions via cold damage. If they DON'T have an internal heat source, then it is odd they don't ever reach equilibrium with the environment.

[Somensjev]

near the front of the DMG doesnt it say that the DnD worlds follow real world physics unless otherwise stated? because if so (on the off chance i'm remembering it correctly) wouldnt real world physics be the default for adventures?

[Drachasor]

near the front of the DMG doesnt it say that the DnD worlds follow real world physics unless otherwise stated? because if so (on the off chance i'm remembering it correctly) wouldnt real world physics be the default for adventures?

It talks about making sure the world is consistent and predictable, but doesn't talk about assuming it is like the real world unless otherwise noted. And I'm looking at the rules on adjudicating situations the rules don't over.

[molten_dragon]

Damnit.

Yep, I'm busted. Ok, thanks for pointing it out.

Rats, and it was going so well too. :smallfrown:

It wouldn't be as impressive, but just filling it with water compressed to 1/4096 it's normal volume then opening it would do some serious damage to anyone in front of it.

For example, the water cutting machines they use for certain industrial applications use water pressurized to around 90,000 PSI.

Compressing water to 1/4096 it's normal size requires something like 300,000 PSI.

[Dalebert]

... but anything that magic / D&D rules don't explicitly cover works by real world physics.

Magic is basically a fictional way to ignore the laws of physics in certain ways. Given that...
Translation: "Just think of all the cool things you could do with physics if you could ignore the laws of physics!"

But that's fine I guess. Half the humor in OotS is poking fun at silliness in the RAW. If it makes for a funny story, go for it.


Will all characters in this game walk around in a fog, because you get a -1 /10 feet penalty to Spot checks? It becomes impossible to see a mountain on the horizon because the penalties are too great.

Mountains get substantial minuses to hide checks both from racial penalties and from size modifiers. ;)



2.) Store water in enveloping pits. When one pit is full, close it and stick it in another pit, which we now fill with shrunken water.


I was going to say that bad things happen when you put a PH into another PH, but then I read the PH desc in the DMG and it's not actually covered. It only address BoH inside a PH and vice-versa. I could swear I'd read that any extra-dimensional space inside another was bad news.

So then I found this under rope trick:
"Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one."

The only precedent for what exactly that hazard is is described under portable holes and bags of holding and it appears to be one of two effects: a rift or a gate to the Astral plane. Either causes both items to be lost and one sucks everything in within 10 feet and sends it to the Astral plane.

On a sidenote, if you ever want to physically travel to the Astral plane without a high-level spell on hand, you can do so for the price of a handy hanversack and a casting of rope trick. Just tie the haversack to the end of the rope, up to 7 people climb up, then pull the rope in. :)




At what temperature will it undergo hydrolysis, producing O2 and H2 gas?
At what temperature/pressure will those start to undergo fusion?
If the hole actually fills with plasma, what will keep the person opening the hole from being incinerated when the plasma comes out? Remember that portable holes only work when laid flat on the ground.

I know this from the Fantastic Four movie so it must be reliable. <.< >.> <.<

I'm pretty sure that the temperature would be sufficient to ignite the atmosphere and destroy all life on the planet. Of course, in a D&D world that might leave behind some elemental creatures that are both immune to fire and don't need to breath, eat, etc.

And I guess as long as we're referencing the movie, you could cast a wall of force to trap the plasma inside it like the Invisible Girl's force field. She was able to trap all that pressure and heat that the Human Torch was generating somehow, and fuse Doctor Doom with his metal powers and... okay I have to stop now. Holy crap, that movie was so awful. I'm gonna be ill if I keep thinking about it.

[unseenmage]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeel...technically a PH is nondimensional space, not extradimensional which makes it a little tricker. A BoH is actually a gate, nesting the BoH inside a PH cuts it off from it's plane and things get very unstable. SO if a BoH can't maintain an interdimensional link inside a PH I should be hard pressed to think of how a simple command word could penetrate. Besides I'm pretty sure the item triggered and the triggeree both have to be on the same plane and most likely with in earshot....other wise just thing of all the magic items that would be firing of at the speed of light just from all the random conversation of the comsos. (If an infinite amount of monkeys with an infinite amount of typewrites can eventually bang out the script to Romeo and Juliet, with an infinite amount of people talking in an infinite amount of languages in an infinite amount of dimensions, every command word ever devised is going to get said every .3 seconds...on a slow day)

I have found no instance of the terms "nondimensional", "non-dimensional", or "non dimensional" in the Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, or the DMG.

I can only assume the term is a holdover from previous editions that didn't survive into 3.x.

Other than that yeah, totally agree. Command Words don't penetrate Planar boundaries.

Though I thought I remembered something about Command Word items only triggering when a character explicitly tries to activate them. Something about their not triggering when the words they're set to are spoken casually... Maybe a Cursed Item with that very effect? I can't remember.

[Zirconia]

Well, you run into weird problems, honestly. For instance, water is pretty darn resistant to being shrunk down. You'd need a pressure of about 21,500 bar (21,500 times atmospheric pressure at sea level) to get it that small.

That's A LOT. More than we can do with modern technology to a reasonable quantity by a factor of maybe 3 or 4, I believe.

I found this link to a recent experiment that achieved 50 million bar pressure, though it sounds like it was dynamic. At that pressure, diamond was shrunk by a factor of 3.7, reaching the density of lead.

http://www.princeton.edu/geosciences/news/archive/?id=6667

There is good theoretical reason to believe that very high pressures on anything make it a metallic type conductor (oxygen, for example, becomes a superconductor at 96 GPa). I'm not sure if that gets you anything interesting in your supercompressed water, trying to fire lightning out of it as it expands is probably gilding the lily, but there it is. . .

Something more exciting than doing this with water might be making thermite, iron oxide and zinc (aluminum is more common today, but would be problematic to get in a fantasy setting without using magic). Not only would the pressure cause it to react, but it provides its own oxygen.

[Dalebert]

I have found no instance of the terms "nondimensional", "non-dimensional", or "non dimensional" in the Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, or the DMG.

In this listing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm), they use both the terms extradimensional and nondimensional, presumably in order to be extra confusing.

[unseenmage]

In this listing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm), they use both the terms extradimensional and nondimensional, presumably in order to be extra confusing.

I stand corrected. It is in the DMG3.5. However, it's not in there anywhere as a game term, just a descriptor. Which is of course, just extra confusing.

Edit: And now I think about it, the term "nondimensional" appearing in the item descriptions but not the planar descriptions could be an instance of 'specific trumps general'.
But so far as I know the difference between calling it nondimensional and calling it extradimensional is nonexistent.
So, unless someone can show me an example of nondimensional having a mechanical game effect, I am going to continue to do my darndest to discourage use of the term. :smallamused:

[Drachasor]

I found this link to a recent experiment that achieved 50 million bar pressure, though it sounds like it was dynamic. At that pressure, diamond was shrunk by a factor of 3.7, reaching the density of lead.

http://www.princeton.edu/geosciences/news/archive/?id=6667

There is good theoretical reason to believe that very high pressures on anything make it a metallic type conductor (oxygen, for example, becomes a superconductor at 96 GPa). I'm not sure if that gets you anything interesting in your supercompressed water, trying to fire lightning out of it as it expands is probably gilding the lily, but there it is. . .

Something more exciting than doing this with water might be making thermite, iron oxide and zinc (aluminum is more common today, but would be problematic to get in a fantasy setting without using magic). Not only would the pressure cause it to react, but it provides its own oxygen.

Those sorts of experiments are done over very, very tiny areas.

I'm pretty sure the water would actually become ice, now that I think about it.....

actually it would require some more work to figure out. Seems like it would be just on the edge between liquid and solid. Definitely won't be a metallic conductor.

Water is pretty simple to work with. Other stuff would be more complicated, I think, especially if chemical reactions were going on.

[Mutazoia]

hmmm...another think to think about is the hole itself. The description states a PH will create a hole 10 feet deep...but says nothing about how wide it will be. One may assume that as the opening can be enlarged to 6 fee wide, that the hole will be 6 feet wide by 10 deep...or not. The fact that the item description fails to list any other internal dimensions apart from depth leave the interior space of a PH in perpetual limbo.

[Heliomance]

I'm pretty sure the water would actually become ice, now that I think about it.....

Nope. Ice is less dense than water, as it's a crystalline structure with relatively large gaps between molecules.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yay, so glad that people continued to post.

Some things I want opinions on:

1.) A poster expressed the concern that a portable hole in a portable hole will have the same effect as a portable hole in a bag of holding, or vice versa. While this may be variously implied in rope trick or by RAI, it's clearly not RAW as far as I can see. Do people think that the RAW supports PH in PH astral rifts/tears.

2.) What about when a portable hole is dispelled? What do you all think happens? I was assuming that the same thing happens as when a bag of holding rips, but now I'm seeing that doesn't seem to be well supported from what I recall. Any thoughts?

3.) Help me get the supercompressed water out of the riverine sphere/resilient sphere in a weaponized way. Ideally, I want a water cannon effect, but I need a way for only some of the water to come out at a time.

4.) Oh, alternately, we can have the water inside the sphere, heat the whole sphere to boiling, and then use it as a fire-damage weapon as we spray boiling water on people. Hmm. Also, air doesn't weigh anything, neither does steam, by RAW. Maybe that's a way to get around the weight limits on the ring gate.

Anyway, glad to see this interesting (and amusingly TO) conversation has continued. Only good things ever result from threads like this, so please contribute freely.:smallbiggrin:

[unseenmage]

1.) Do people think that the RAW supports PH in PH astral rifts/tears.

Nope, totally works. Much like building a stronghold inside a system of Enveloping Pits inside Enveloping Pits.


2.) What about when a portable hole is dispelled? What do you all think happens? I was assuming that the same thing happens as when a bag of holding rips, but now I'm seeing that doesn't seem to be well supported from what I recall. Any thoughts?

If the P. Hole is open I can see the "hole" ceasing to be and the items spilling forth. As they would otherwise materialize inside the ground (or wheatever the P. Hole was deployed on) and there's a lot of RAI for things that would Teleport/Plane Shift into solid matter being shunted aside.

If the P. Hole is closed when it's dispelled? Then i would say the access point to the demiplane the item creates is gone and you'd need to find another way in. But I could also see this being the answer to the P. Hole closed situation too.


3.) Help me get the supercompressed water out of the riverine sphere/resilient sphere in a weaponized way. Ideally, I want a water cannon effect, but I need a way for only some of the water to come out at a time.

The aforementioned infinite CL Hardening trick works on Magic items too so you could leave one Planar Ring Gate in the Sphere and leave the other in an Antimagic Field to suppress it until you want it to function again.


4.) Oh, alternately, we can have the water inside the sphere, heat the whole sphere to boiling, and then use it as a fire-damage weapon as we spray boiling water on people. Hmm. Also, air doesn't weigh anything, neither does steam, by RAW. Maybe that's a way to get around the weight limits on the ring gate.

Could always be immune to the water/steam/whatever and build yourself some Called Armor with the infinite CL Hardening and build it with a lot of water/steam/whatever holding pockets and summon it forth when you want it.

Other than that you might be able to Teleport object the superheated material to you.

Build an actual valve out of materials resistant to your water/steam/whatever.

Minor Servitor (SS) works on volumes of substances. Maybe make some of your superheated stuff into a sentient minion.

Edit: Quintessence! Quintessence doesn't care about heat or damage! use that to encapsulate little bits of your superheated stuff and then carry it around wherever.
Why didn't I think of that sooner!

[Phelix-Mu]

BRILLIANT! Is any TO discussion really complete without the beauteous QUINTESSENCE??!! I mean, honestly, that stuff is just a load of mind-bending, physics-breaking, wish-fulfilling fun. I read the Dream of Metal and just about died. Not sure it works, but man, it was a nice read.

[Heliomance]

So... what happens if you use this trick to pressurise quintessence to 4096x its normal density?

[unseenmage]

BRILLIANT! Is any TO discussion really complete without the beauteous QUINTESSENCE??!! I mean, honestly, that stuff is just a load of mind-bending, physics-breaking, wish-fulfilling fun. I read the Dream of Metal and just about died. Not sure it works, but man, it was a nice read.

Quintessence is even better than that. From what I've been able to gather, after it's made it's no more magical than a Wall of Stone spell's wall of stone. And as such is viable for animation via Minor Servitor.

Your ball of condensed timestuff could encapsulate your superheated material AND have feats and skills. Super Awesome build just got that much more super awesome. No, nevermind, that would give it an hp value and thus make it killable by the super heated stuff... crud.

For that matter one wonders if the container for your super heated stuff couldn't also be a Minor Servitor which could dispense the painful brew on command. Infinite CL Hardening shenanigans allowing of course.

Edit:
Y'know, an Incorporeal creature could Plane Shift in and out of your superheating extradimensional space as often as it pleased without being subject to the physical forces involved.

And it can carry spells in with it thanks to Transdimensional spell metamagic (I think) and the Craft Contingent Spell feat.

So yeah, if this works then you can do anything you want to the inhospitable interior of the sphere as though you were actually there. Sweet.

Edit again:

So... what happens if you use this trick to pressurise quintessence to 4096x its normal density?

By RAW? Exactly nothing.
By physics? I think black hole or wormhole (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHRtdyW9ong) or both or first one then the other. Or this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSqpmUQINE8)

[Drachasor]

Nope. Ice is less dense than water, as it's a crystalline structure with relatively large gaps between molecules.

Partly true. There are 12 or so different forms of water ice with different internal structures and different densities. Go to high pressures and you get Ice VI, VII, X, XI etc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice#Phases) It's a complex subject.