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Zame Shadows
2013-12-10, 05:14 PM
ok so my dm just approved a mouthpick weapon for my animal cohort, was thinking longsword. And since it would be his primary attack it all makes sense but what if, now this is just an idea i toying with, my two weapon fighter were to use a double bladed mouthpick weapon, he's a werewolf so he does get the bite attack in hybrid form. What would the penalties involved be? Any ideas?

Zame Shadows
2013-12-10, 07:27 PM
Ok let me rephrase
my normal full attack is currently
Longsword,
To Hit: [[1d20+14]]
Damage: [[1d8+8]]
To Hit: [[1d20+9]]
Damage: [[1d8+8]]
Shield Spike
To Hit: [[1d20+14]]
Damage: [[1d6+4]]
To Hit: [[1d20+9]]
Damage: [[1d6+4]]
Bite,
To Hit: [[1d20+10]]
Damage: [[1d6+3]]

according to mouthpick weapon enhancement it replaces the bite attack, so would i just use the normal attack bonus from my bite attack? I have two weapon fighting but I don't think it should help in this situation.

from the srd on natural attacks with weapon attacks "These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon."

so in the instance of a single weapon I think I would follow this rule, but if i were to make it a double weapon how would it work in conjunction with this would I apply two weapon fighting penalties on top of the normal secondary penalties giving -7 to both secondary attacks?

Hanuman
2013-12-10, 09:02 PM
Natural attacks sidebar from the unpublished new edition of the Ozodrin:

Natural Attacks Sidebar


Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature.
A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach.
Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.
The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm).
Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.
When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon.
All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.
The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon.
An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus.
Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.
Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.


Bite:
The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.

Claw or Talon
The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.

Gore
The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.

Slap or Slam
The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

Sting
The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage.

Tentacle
The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.


Natural Attacks follow special rules for an Ozodrin:

An ozodrin cannot make more attacks with its natural attacks granted by features per round than half the sum of its class level + its Charisma modifier.
All of an ozodrin‘s natural attacks gained from features are considered primary attacks unless otherwise noted.
If the ozodrin has natural attacks from sources other than its class levels, such as its race, it may instead choose to use its racial natural primary attack(s) instead.
If an ozodrin makes natural attacks and attacks with a weapon, the natural attacks are considered secondary.


How Fighting With Natural Weapons Works By Solo



Main hand weapons are weapons you get your iterative attacks with. This is NOT required to be a single weapon. You could make main hand attacks with 3 different weapons, so long as you have enough BAB to make 3 attacks. Main hand attacks typically get 1x +str, unless you wield them in both hands. Note: You don't actually have to wield a weapon in any hands, provided its description allows it.

Offhand weapons are weapons who's attacks are derived from the two weapon fighting (henceforth to be referred to as TWFing) combat option, or through the higher tier TWFing feats. You don't need TWFing to TWF, but it helps reduce the penalties. You DO need Improved TWF and Greater TWF to make more than one offhand attack. All offhand attacks have to be with the same weapon, and it can't be with any weapon you used as part of your iterative attacks. Offhand attacks only ever recieve .5x +str damage, regardless of how many hands you wield them with. If you aren't TWFing, you don't have an offhand.

Primary natural attacks are a creature's main mode of attack. This is typically an attack with either the highest damage, or a combat ability such as Improved Grab. Its also typically the attack a creature makes AoOs and standard action attacks with. Primary natural attacks almost always get 1x Str, although some creatures, especially those with only a single natural weapon, may get 1.5x. There is no hard rule for this though, so consult a stat block for more details. In the presence of a weapon capable of making iteratives (manufactured weapon or UAS), all primary weapons are converted to secondary natural weapons. A natural attack that is full (such as carrying gear or a manufactured weapon) can not make attacks.

Secondary natural attacks are a creature's alternate modes of attack. During a full attack, each other natural weapon the creature possesses may make 1 attack at -5 from highest AB (-2 with Multiattack). Secondary natural weapons always only receive .5x+Str regardless of whether or not they dealt 1x or 1.5x as primary weapons. A natural attack that is full (such as carrying gear or a manufactured weapon) can not make attacks.