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View Full Version : Hey, can i get some input from a third party on my problem?



Zellous
2013-12-10, 10:12 PM
Hey Guys, in my Group of Friends we have these two guys, their nice people, and i don't want to offend them, but One Person Doesn't want to do any of the work, do none of the role playing if its to hard and rely on "my character would know so ill roll" to get things done. And does not pay attention to the story if its not centered around him, he also does not play characters with any depth or creativity because he does not wish to be railroaded or have the DM use his back story against him. He is also a player that wants all of the power from a social station, with none of the responsibility that comes with it, and he always plays himself with powers and abilities. And the other person wants to play over powered, unbalanced characters, stat's on a page, and roll with that for every instance.

They both are nice people and i do not wish to offend them, but its beginning to grate on another player's, and my own mind that we always try to build people, before characters and they do not do any of the work towards characters, yet want all of the same respect as players. in one instance the other player that shares my issues was running a Game, and requested we write out a minimum one paragraph worth of history for our character's, Both other players wrote a single paragraph and handed it in.
i wrote a full eight paragraphs, i had more than four times the amount of information on my character. I felt a little insulted not only for myself, but for the guy running the game, that hey did not care enough to write out enough information for their characters. yes in the end i was given a lot more breathing room and role playing opportunity than them, but it almost feels like they do not want to play role playing games so much as they want to play pen and paper Diablo 3.

Now i want to know what it is i can do about them, we have tried talking to both players on more than half a dozen different Occasions but to no avail.

TuggyNE
2013-12-10, 11:52 PM
Hey Guys, in my Group of Friends we have these two guys, their nice people, and i don't want to offend them, but One Person Doesn't want to do any of the work, do none of the role playing if its to hard and rely on "my character would know so ill roll" to get things done.

But if the character does know, how is that not roleplaying? They are acting on in-character knowledge/abilities, after all.

That said, it's probably best if they put some effort into writing down things their character should remember; synchronicity between character and player is ideal.


And does not pay attention to the story if its not centered around him, he also does not play characters with any depth or creativity because he does not wish to be railroaded or have the DM use his back story against him.

Sounds like someone who's had bad experiences in the past. What does your current DM do with backstories, in general?


He is also a player that wants all of the power from a social station, with none of the responsibility that comes with it, and he always plays himself with powers and abilities.

Self-inserts can get annoying, and social munchkinry still more so. But it should not be difficult to apply the usual in-game consequences for neglecting one's duties in such cases, so one of those at least can be solved appropriately.

And, strictly speaking, there's nothing wrong with someone playing a spoiled lazy noble who abuses their power, since such nobles undeniably have existed, and their experiences and career can be interesting to follow, in moderation.


And the other person wants to play over powered, unbalanced characters, stat's on a page, and roll with that for every instance.

Hard to tell if they're being careless with optimization or if they're just unwilling to tone things down, but this is something that should be talked out. Preferably the whole group should go through something like the Same Page Tool (http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/same-page-tool-examples/) beforehand.


They both are nice people and i do not wish to offend them, but its beginning to grate on another player's, and my own mind that we always try to build people, before characters and they do not do any of the work towards characters, yet want all of the same respect as players.

I'm afraid I'm a little slow here; what sort of respect are we talking about, and what ways did they indicate they expect, demand, or want this respect?


in one instance the other player that shares my issues was running a Game, and requested we write out a minimum one paragraph worth of history for our character's, Both other players wrote a single paragraph and handed it in.
i wrote a full eight paragraphs, i had more than four times the amount of information on my character. I felt a little insulted not only for myself, but for the guy running the game, that hey did not care enough to write out enough information for their characters. yes in the end i was given a lot more breathing room and role playing opportunity than them

So they did what they were asked and no more, you did considerably more and got somewhat more in return, yet you were unsatisfied with what they did. Beware envy, my friend, if I may call you that. If they should have done more to be "proper" players, then by all means your like-minded friend should have set the minimum higher, but to require so much, and then look down on them for only doing as much as requested, is unfair.

(There is also the fact that, strictly speaking, written quantity is a poor measure of the quality of a backstory; it's possible to have dozens of pages of irrelevant or redundant information that will never be referred to, and equally it is possible to have a paragraph or two, or perhaps even just a sentence, that can drive a story arc on its own. But it's a common shorthand among many groups to require minimum backstory length, so that's by no means a unique error.)


but it almost feels like they do not want to play role playing games so much as they want to play pen and paper Diablo 3.

That may well be the case, and it's possible that their desired playstyle(s) and yours do not overlap sufficiently to play well in the same group*, but is wanting to play P&P Diablo a crime or somehow wrong? In any case, Diablo III is (according to Blizzard and Wikipedia) considered a role-playing game as well, so perhaps these styles are not so different.

*That is, it might be impractical to simultaneously satisfy both sets of players with the same game. Or it might not be; it depends on how flexible you all are and how close on the spectrum your various preferences are.


Now i want to know what it is i can do about them, we have tried talking to both players on more than half a dozen different Occasions but to no avail.

Hopefully these suggestions, along with whatever others appear, will help you focus the discussion more to uncover things they want that neither you nor they may be fully aware of.

Hmm, on reviewing this post, it occurs to me that the Gentlemen's Agreement might help with some few of these problems.

Airk
2013-12-10, 11:55 PM
Sounds like you've already tried the nice approach (talking to them). Now it's time for the 'good of the group approach'. By which we mean another talk. It goes like this:

"Guys; We've had this talk like 5 times now. The rest of the group wants to do some serious roleplaying, and you've shown you're not interested in that. As a result, we'll be starting a new game without you. This doesn't mean we're not friends anymore, but you wouldn't have any fun playing this one with us, so it's best for all involved if you don't. We can still go out for pizza on Saturday though, it's cool."

Basically, tell them the facts. They're not interested in playing the same game that everyone else is playing. This doesn't mean you can't be friends. It just means you're not inviting the guy who doesn't like poker to poker night. Plan some other social activities to hang out with these guys.

tahu88810
2013-12-11, 04:53 AM
I think it's important to remember that people can enjoy many different aspects of any given game. Some people seriously enjoy the math and statistics that come with a roleplaying game. Some people not so much.

My advice to you, as a fellow player, would be to try and find some middle ground. Discuss combat tactics and the like with them, but make it clear that some of the crazier things would need a bit of roleplay before your character would be willing to take part in it.
As far as the GM being unhappy with things goes, perhaps suggest that he see what they're looking for mechanically. It could be an item, a prestige class, a rise in political station, whatever. Have them spend a little more time roleplaying and working to get those things. Don't press them, or expect them to go over the top for it, but reward roleplay with a more interesting, mechanically and strategically, path to whatever they're working towards.

And in the future, maybe request a sentence or two for every detail of the character sheet. If it's D&D 3.5 - Have them explain where that second class comes from. How did they learn the mageslayer feat? Why? Things like that.
You, as a fellow player, can also, politely, ask them things along those lines.

I've found, in the past, that often a short backstory or little roleplay isn't a lack of motivation or interest. Some people take a little time to get into their characters, some people don't want to pidgeonhole themselves with lengthy backgrounds, and some people are just uncomfortable with theatrics on their end.
The world takes all types, if you enjoy playing with them otherwise, it's better to accommodate and find a middle ground.

EDIT: It might also help to ask them what THEY want. What are THEY looking for in the game? You might be surprised. Maybe they enjoy watching the rest of you roleplay, and are content with remaining in the background-- If they are, that shouldn't mean the GM should ignore them, and said GM should still endeavor to give them the spotlight now and then all the same, but maybe in a way that they'll enjoy.

Mastikator
2013-12-11, 05:10 AM
You are right to not be happy with how they play, they may be nice people but they are clearly inadequate as players.

First step is that they need to know and agree that they are not living up to the groups expectations. I fear that it may not be easy for them to accept that they are in the wrong. How you get them into the mindset that they need to change is something I'm unfortunately not good with. In my previous group we had success using peer pressure though.
One player was always very late (an hour or two) and this greatly annoyed everyone, so one time one player told everyone to tell this player that they were not OK with him being always late when he arrived. He arrived late as usual and we all told him that he should make an effort to be on time and that we were unhappy with his behavior. We all did this, we we civilized about it and his behavior changed.
Maybe you can get the group to "gang up" on these two players, make sure to do it to each individually.

Or you could take some time off from playing to discuss what each player expects from the GM and all the other players and go through their likes and dislikes. We also did this from time to time and it helped with the quality of everyone's performance immensely. It takes a certain base level of maturity though.

Frenth Alunril
2013-12-11, 09:35 AM
Cut them out.

That's the end of my advice.

Airk
2013-12-11, 10:12 AM
I think it's important to remember that people can enjoy many different aspects of any given game. Some people seriously enjoy the math and statistics that come with a roleplaying game. Some people not so much.

This is fine. However...



My advice to you, as a fellow player, would be to try and find some middle ground.

In my experience, trying to find a middle ground between people who only like to do one thing, and people who want to do something else is like trying to find a middle ground between playing chess and playing checkers. You either end up with something that nobody likes, or you gravitate to whichever side pulls harder and the other side ends up unhappy. If you have two powergamer/muchkins and three heavy roleplayers, you're not finding a happy middle, and trying to look for it is a fallacy.


EDIT: It might also help to ask them what THEY want. What are THEY looking for in the game? You might be surprised. Maybe they enjoy watching the rest of you roleplay, and are content with remaining in the background-- If they are, that shouldn't mean the GM should ignore them, and said GM should still endeavor to give them the spotlight now and then all the same, but maybe in a way that they'll enjoy.

This is a legitimate possibility, but seems very unlikely based on the info in the OP.

tahu88810
2013-12-11, 11:28 AM
This is fine. However...
In my experience, trying to find a middle ground between people who only like to do one thing, and people who want to do something else is like trying to find a middle ground between playing chess and playing checkers. You either end up with something that nobody likes, or you gravitate to whichever side pulls harder and the other side ends up unhappy. If you have two powergamer/muchkins and three heavy roleplayers, you're not finding a happy middle, and trying to look for it is a fallacy.


Not wanting to start an argument here, but I would like to say that part of finding a middleground is finding a situation which both sides can find agreeable. In lieu of that, you're right, sometimes it's best to cut your losses. It's (nearly) always better to seek a more amenable solution, though, and actually cutting people out might be a worst case scenario. I can think of no reason why a munchkins and roleplayers can't enjoy a game equally, but it requires that both sides be willing to give a little.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-12-11, 11:46 AM
Roleplaying games, D&D in particular, have many different aspects that can be enjoyed. The problem is, as you press along the paths of any given aspect, you often wind up diverging wildly from the other paths.

Getting deep into the narrative details of a character is one part of D&D. It's great, but when one player dives deep into it and the others don't, the player who revels in backstory and character detail will feel a need to bring the other players onto their path, because they feel like they're diminishing the grand story that they want. They develop the expectation that everyone will engage in character backstories and development.

Getting deep into character build and optimization is another part of D&D. It's actually very enjoyable, a valid way to play the game, but when one player constantly dives into CharOp and makes a character much more powerful than the rest, the others get left behind, and the optimizer may resent the other players for dragging them down with poorly-optimized characters. They develop the expectation that everyone will engage in some level of powergaming.

Playing the game to get some personal satisfaction (i.e. in-game power) is another part of D&D. It's a fantasy, after all, and some players play it as escapism, as a way of being someone who they can't be in real life. The problem is, when one player makes it into their personal wish fulfillment fantasy, it grates against the other players. The fantasy player will develop the expectation that everyone go along with their escapism.

Most D&D players do these three things in lesser amounts. The more you focus on one, however, the harder it is to keep up the other two. You can optimize and get into character details, but that makes it harder to optimize qua optimization. I don't know the group, and I'm no expert, but it seems to me that you have three players who wildly diverge in their playstyle because they embrace it so much.

Try drifting back to the center. Try getting everyone to do that. Learn about build tactics, and get some suggestions. See if you can get the fantasy player to incorporate some character building. Also, talk to the GM, and see what their perspective is. They may see the group dynamic in a totally different light.

I think it can be important to talk these things out, but don't blame other people for messing up your game, because it's not your game. :smallsmile: It's the entire group coming together and learning how to work with their preferences. Communication will help that, and it'll help you enjoy things about D&D that you didn't think of enjoying before.

Remember--you can always learn something from a player whose style is massively different from yours, if you have the humility to do so.

Airk
2013-12-11, 01:45 PM
I think it can be important to talk these things out, but don't blame other people for messing up your game, because it's not your game. :smallsmile: It's the entire group coming together and learning how to work with their preferences. Communication will help that, and it'll help you enjoy things about D&D that you didn't think of enjoying before.

I'm sorry, but if you're the GM and no one else is stepping up to do that, it IS your game, because without you, it would not be happening. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't listen to your players, but it DOES mean that if a subset of them don't like your game (especially when it's a minority subset) the best alternative is probably to find some new players.


Remember--you can always learn something from a player whose style is massively different from yours, if you have the humility to do so.

Yes, but sometimes that something is "Boy, I really hate the way this guy plays". :P

Anyway, all this nice-nice talk about finding middle ground is all well and good, but the whole reason I'm addressing this thread the way I am is because it seems to clear to me, from the OP, that those attempts have already been made, and that one side isn't willing to budge. Remember. It takes TWO to compromise. You're not "finding middle ground" if you say "Okay, okay, we'll tone down the roleplaying" without the other side saying "Alright, we'll try to munchkin less." You're just sacrificing to keep people with incompatible play styles in the game.

Maybe that's something you want to do, but it's not a good way to have a fun game.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-12-11, 04:12 PM
I'm sorry, but if you're the GM and no one else is stepping up to do that, it IS your game, because without you, it would not be happening. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't listen to your players, but it DOES mean that if a subset of them don't like your game (especially when it's a minority subset) the best alternative is probably to find some new players.

...the OP didn't seem like they were the GM of their particular game.

Airk
2013-12-11, 04:20 PM
...the OP didn't seem like they were the GM of their particular game.

True, but this thread seems like it is straying into the realm of 'general advice'.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-12-11, 04:40 PM
Well, I was definitely offering advice to the OP specifically, as the thread's topic indicates. :smallsmile:

Airk
2013-12-12, 12:31 PM
Well, I was definitely offering advice to the OP specifically, as the thread's topic indicates. :smallsmile:

Fair enough, I guess I was straying offtopic and/or conflating this thread with one of the other 'help I need help with my players' threads. :)

NickChaisson
2013-12-17, 12:55 AM
Not everyone is perfect. I would say, try to work on them. Help them improve and be better players. Just be clear that you would like more roleplaying or whatever but let them go at their own pace(you probably shouldnt tell them that you plan on improving them though). Encourage them when they improve but dont punish them when they dont.

Im against cutting people out though, unless they are being mean/cruel you should try to work on things. They obviously want to play with you and you said they are nice people. I'm sure some nice solution can be reached.

Hope that helped ^_^