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Ephraim
2007-01-15, 10:07 PM
I'm starting a game soon and I was looking through the DMG to figure out how much loot to reward my party and it seemed like an unreasonably large amount. It looks like the recommended reward for a CR 1 encounter is 300 GP and for a CR 2 encounter is 600 GP. That means if I run my players through a dungeon containing those two encounters and a simple trap, the expected loot is 900 GP. That's 225 GP each -- considerably more than their initial gold from a single, dinky adventure. Is there a reason why the DMG recommends so much? Does it turn out not to be such a bounty afterall or are the characters just richly compensated for their derring do?

Aximili
2007-01-15, 10:19 PM
Aren't you looking at the XP reward table?

oriong
2007-01-15, 10:24 PM
Well, for one thing it's typically an average, you don't have to just spew gold at the PCs every time they accomplish something, but over an entire level they should earn quite a bit.

First, that GP is in value: if the PCs find two cure light potions then that's 100 gp there, if they find a masterwork sword that's a whole 300+ gp.

Also, remember that this is not 300 per person, this is 300 gp in general, it's actually not that much compared to their starting gold.

A first level character starts with an average of around 75-150 gp each. For the whole party of 4 that's about 400-500 gp all together. So if they go through a dungeon and earn 900 gp that's only 225 gp each, a little more than double (or even less than double) their initial starting wealth, and since they probably had consumable items that got spent dealing with those encounters their net profit isn't that great, especially when you add in costs to get stuff identified and so on.

Ephraim
2007-01-15, 10:27 PM
Aren't you looking at the XP reward table?

Nope. Definitely looking at the treasure table. Page 51 in the DMG. A level 1 encounter is 300 GP and a level 2 encounter is 600 GP. The expectation is that the party will have acquired 4000 GP by the time it reaches level 2.

Huh. I did some more looking and I guess that it's the same as the experience table (page 38) at this level.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-15, 10:30 PM
It's a lot because the equipment a 2nd level character is supposed to have is darn expensive. CRs are set on the assumption that a 2nd level character has about 900 gp of equipment to help him or her out. Over the course of the level gain, the PC is expected to have a gross gain of about 1,000 gp, so that assumes about 100 gp in various expenditures (such as two potions of cure light wounds he or she downed and no longer possesses). You'll note this all works out quite well. 300 gp / 4 characters == 75 gp per character per "balanced encounter". 75 gp x 13.333 balanced encounters == 999.999 gp by level 2. Subtract the potions, and you're set.

It's all to keep the PCs up to expected wealth by level.

I'd give more examples, but that would stray into the realm of "too much non-OGC". Just compare the tables on pages 54 and 135 to see what I'm talking about.

CuthroatMcGee
2007-01-16, 03:13 AM
I often wondered about the wealth guidelines myself. It seems that a level two or three character could easily have highly overpowered items, especially when the most dangerous thing they'll likely be fighting at that level is a couple otygohs or a tribe of orcs.

oriong
2007-01-16, 03:27 AM
I think the big problem is that there are a few key differences between the wealth by level table (which you get when you just pop into existance at X level) and the actual progression from lower to higher level.

The primary difference is that the PCs who are getting the cash as it comes are not getting it in the form of a single massive sum of money, which works to help curb their spending on abusive items in the following ways:

A) They don't always get to choose the form of the money. The contents of an adventurer's pack may very well be worth 1,500 gp, but a significant amount of that might be in the form of found weapons and armor (which are sold back at half price), random potions and scrolls or half charged wands. Much of it might be useful, but it's not all cherry picked as the PCs please.

B) it's incremental so PCs must often choose between a lesser, immediate gain, and a greater gain later. Sure, the PC might wish he had a longsword +1, but right now he only has so much money...but he can afford that potion of cure moderate wounds which'll come in pretty handy and keep him alive. So he spends the money now on the potion, meaning he won't have the longsword later (although he will be alive later. an important issue). By X level he has gained just as much money as someone who went by the wealth/level guidelines, but he wasn't able to just hoard it until he leveled up.

These effects become even more pronounced when you think about non-item expenses like buying spells from a cleric or wizard, identifying magical items (something you don't have to worry about with the wbl rules) or even paying for things like feed for your mount. And of course consumable items like potions and scrolls is money burned away that doesn't come back (While you can sell back a masterwork longsword to offset the cost of the +1 longsword, or even get it enchanted straight out).

Matthew
2007-01-16, 07:38 AM
You are free to give you Player Characters as much or as little Experience and Wealth as you see fit. What you have to monitor in so doing is the relative power levels within the group and what kind of Monsters are going to be an appropriate challenge. Keep in mind that the guidelines are not perfect to begin with, but they are useful for approximating this sort of thing. Really, though, determining appropriate challenges and rewards is a matter of Dungeon Master experience and group play preference.
If you think the suggested gold is too much, don't give out that much, but keep an eye out for how this impacts your game. Spell Casters don't need wealth quite as much as Non Spell Casters to be effective and lowering wealth increases difficulty. Of course, if you lower experience and wealth at proportional rates, this should not be a problem. It will simply take longer for Characters to reach higher levels, by which time they will have the appropriate wealth, the only difference being the number of challenges they have faced.

Ethdred
2007-01-16, 08:28 AM
225 GP isn't a lot of money - yes it's more than they start with, but that's why they go adventuring!! But it doesn't even work out to a masterwork weapon. When you think of all the things characters are going to want to buy, that money will get used up pretty quickly - not including magic items, just better weapons and especially better armour, more gear, mounts and other animals, and then there's all the food and lodging etc. And as others have said, they won't be getting all that in cash, so there are losses involved with trading things in.

Ephraim
2007-01-16, 07:06 PM
You are free to give you Player Characters as much or as little Experience and Wealth as you see fit. What you have to monitor in so doing is the relative power levels within the group and what kind of Monsters are going to be an appropriate challenge. Keep in mind that the guidelines are not perfect to begin with, but they are useful for approximating this sort of thing.

Oh, absolutely. I know it's ultimately up to me. I suspected that there was a good explanation somewhere, though. It amazed me to find that an average L2 party should have equipment valued in the vicinity of 900 gp, though, just to be equal to typical CR2 encounters. Knowing why the DMG recommends so much loot, I won't be tampering with it too much (at least not in obvious ways.)

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-16, 07:13 PM
I'm extremely stingy on rewards with my players. In my current gestalt campaign, only three have magic weapons right now (and only +1's), there are only two pieces of masterwork equipment besides those, and most of what they "own" is actually part of an army that they've had to finance with a small pittance of funds. The wealthiest character has just over 1,000 gold.

The average party level is 6.

wormwood
2007-01-16, 11:37 PM
First, adventurers are supposed to get rich quickly. That's why most of them do it, after all. If there wasn't any profit in it, everyone would be farmers.

Also, if they don't get a good bit of loot by level 3 or so, they're gonna die horrible painful deaths. That isn't exactly fun.

Desaril
2007-01-16, 11:55 PM
I totally agree with Matthew that rewards are a GM call and the tables are only a guide. Consider that the tables has arbitrary value for magic items. Why is a masterwork weapon cost 300gp more? Why is a +1 sword worth 2000 gp? In your campaign, they may be more or less valuable.

The problem with straying from the tables is that we hope the designers created CR/EL consistently with these tables. Basically, a CR 4 creature assumes the PC party has four 4th level characters with the wealth provided on the table.

What throws it back off is Oriong's point. What if I provided the wealth in redundant items (another masterwork bastard sword!?). What if I provided mounts that later died. Even worse, what if I provided it all in GP, but there was no magic to buy?

End result- if you don't use the tables your encounters may not be balanced. If you stick to the tables, your encounters may not be balanced.

AmoDman
2007-01-17, 12:09 AM
I'm extremely stingy on rewards with my players. In my current gestalt campaign, only three have magic weapons right now (and only +1's), there are only two pieces of masterwork equipment besides those, and most of what they "own" is actually part of an army that they've had to finance with a small pittance of funds. The wealthiest character has just over 1,000 gold.

The average party level is 6.

And you're proud of this? Just sounds annoying to me. Like, I wish I'd played a cleric and taken Divine Metamagic annoying.

oriong
2007-01-17, 12:14 AM
Well to be fair, it's a gestalt game. That's gluttonously spoiling the PCs to begin with.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-01-17, 12:45 AM
What kills me is that the average commoner apparently earns 1 sp a week. If you earned 300 gp in a single haul, that should seriously be enough of an investment to, I don't know, set up a nice sword shop on the corner and live in relative peace.... which kind of kills the whole "get rich" motive for adventuring if you're rich enough to buy some acres and a quaint farm by 4th level.

axraelshelm
2007-01-17, 01:28 AM
well considering how expensive high level magic items are like 70 thousand for one? i say the pc's have alot of saving up to do if they want them custom made for them but random treasure you never get exactly what you want.

AmoDman
2007-01-17, 07:04 AM
What kills me is that the average commoner apparently earns 1 sp a week. If you earned 300 gp in a single haul, that should seriously be enough of an investment to, I don't know, set up a nice sword shop on the corner and live in relative peace.... which kind of kills the whole "get rich" motive for adventuring if you're rich enough to buy some acres and a quaint farm by 4th level.

I don't think so. PCs are supposed to be exceptional, thus living an "average" life with moderate wealth and lands isn't exactly something they'd be aiming for unless they were NPC material.

Awetugiw
2007-01-17, 07:53 AM
Don't forget that WBL guidelines are also important to keep the different classes in (something a bit like) balance.

The fighter really needs that +n sword, the sorcerer would like a cloak of charisma +n, but doesn't need it nearly as much.

NullAshton
2007-01-17, 08:10 AM
Don't forget that WBL guidelines are also important to keep the different classes in (something a bit like) balance.

The fighter really needs that +n sword, the sorcerer would like a cloak of charisma +n, but doesn't need it nearly as much.

And the wizard ESPECIALLY needs that spellbook, or he/she can't do a single thing.:smallsmile:

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-17, 08:51 AM
I'm extremely stingy on rewards with my players. In my current gestalt campaign, only three have magic weapons right now (and only +1's), there are only two pieces of masterwork equipment besides those, and most of what they "own" is actually part of an army that they've had to finance with a small pittance of funds. The wealthiest character has just over 1,000 gold.

The average party level is 6.

I usually do the same thing. In my Rokugan game we got to level 7 and every one had a single magic weapon each. Those weapons were actually made by a character with the Master Smith Prc so they're not reall that magic.

The problem is that dnd isn't designed to be like that. You're supposed to get lots of ph4t l3wt because you're adventuring. It just never makes sense in any campaign were the characters aren't tomb robbing money grubbers. But dnd just happens to be designed to simulate treasure robbers. If you don't give people enough magic items they won't be able to fight of oppenents with a CR near that level.

The problem I always had was the shear ammount of money involved. Once a DM expected us to carry 3000 copper pieces out of the dungeon. The Sutton Hoo burial only contained 12 odd gold coins. The idea that anyone would pay 10,000 for anything just seems stupid.