[3.5] Build challenge: non-caster VOP

[Thurbane]

I just thought I'd throw a build challenge out there.

It's widely accepted that VoP is garbage, and that the only builds that can succeed in spite of VoP are full casters (Druids, mainly).

My build challenge is this - can you make a VoP build that is a somewhat viable character, and that isn't a caster?

For this challenge, following guidelines apply:

Caster includes psionics, binding, soul melding, invocations, shadow casting, true speaking etc. You get what I mean, in case I have forgotten any specifics. Factotum is borderline, but should probably also be excluded.
Race/template combo should be no more than LA +2, and preferably no RHD. (i.e. no VoP dragons or rakshasa please!)
Build should be competent at melee and able to deal respectable damage. Ability in skillmonkeying is a bonus.
Build should be able to achieve those things normally left lacking by VoP - primarily flight and some form of effective ranged or area attack.


What can you fine people throw at me?

Cheers - T

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5), but throw on Dragonborn of Bahamut with the Wings aspect and replace two Half-Orc Paragon levels with Swordsage. He should use a piercing weapon such as a spear for making dive attacks, and can throw javelins when necessary. Alternatively you can get the Heart aspect from Dragonborn for a breath attack, and pick up Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a Dire Eagle (RoS) at 'level -3' to use as a flying mount.

[A_S]

Mulhorandi Divine Minion Human Swordsage 1/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5/Swordsage +3

*edit* I'll see if I can come up with something less cheesy and flesh it out a little more than this.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mulhorandi Divine Minion Human Swordsage 1/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5/Swordsage +3

*edit* I'll see if I can come up with something less cheesy and flesh it out a little more than this.
Heck, just the ol' Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5 (or MoMF 3/Warshape 5/MoMF+7) ought to do just fine. Giant Octopus + Touch of Golden Ice would be hilarious.

If that's too much like magic, a straight Raptoran or Dragonborn (or both!) Swordsage might do OK.

[Gnome Alone]

Would optimizing a bard (ignoring their spells entirely, of course) for Inspire Courage work? Dragonfire Inspiration and all that jazz? And maybe with Knowledge Devotion. Seems like it would only be sort of awful. I know you couldn't get a Badge of Valor, but I think you could still get Words of Creation and Song of the Heart. I don't know though, I've never been even kind of interested in VoP. Play D&D and not get any fun weird magic toys ever? Go vegan in the land of milk and honey? Pass.

[ranagrande]

Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Knight 2/Samurai 1/Beastmaster 1/Moonsea Sentinel 1/Skylord 1/Knight of the Iron Glacier 1/Beloved of Valarian 1/Beast Heart Adept 10

You and your little army should be able reasonably effective.

[Emperor Tippy]

Necropolitan Gray Elf Factotum 8/ Decisive Strike Invisible Fist Martial Monk 2/ Swordsage 10

Use the Ritual of Shadow Walking.

Flight is covered by Balance on the Sky. Sure you only get it at ECL 20, color=blue] and that is absolutely not a problem[/color], but its about the best VoP "flight" around on a non caster.

If LA Buyoff is allowed then throw on the Shadow Creature template at +2 LA to grab the fast healing 2 and movement boost.

Max Int, make Dex secondary with Str as your third stat. You want your standard sneaky feats.

Oh yeah, make sure that you just happen to be friends with a caster who will Chaos Shuffle all of your stupid exalted feats for you free of charge and get you your Inherent stat boosts.

Your damage is alright as you are getting Int, Dex, and Str to it along with the Burning Blade line for another +15 and potentially craven for another +20 before it is all doubled thanks to Decisive Strike and then you hit your foe half a dozen times.

It's not perfect and the build isn't fully fleshed out but its certainly playable.

For the lulz I would even have the character insist that he is a Monk with the Factotum and Swordsage bits all being his "secret monk skills".

[AMFV]

Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Knight 2/Samurai 1/Beastmaster 1/Moonsea Sentinel 1/Skylord 1/Knight of the Iron Glacier 1/Beloved of Valarian 1/Beast Heart Adept 10

You and your little army should be able reasonably effective.

Not really since most of those levels don't stack for their respective companion types.

[Tommy2255]

I've heard of a "Jesus" build in Pathfinder that used a monk with most of the vows that was able to manage pretty well as a diplomancer. I don't know if it's really playable in 3.5, though. The vows are a lot harsher. Especially with the Vow of Nonviolence, you start running into the Paladin problem of "my abilities are dependent on the actions of my party members", only more so. I'm pretty sure it only ever had novelty value.

[ranagrande]

Not really since most of those levels don't stack for their respective companion types.
Right, but all of them should be able to benefit from Monstrous Team Up and all of them except the unicorn are easily replaceable.

[Talya]

Raptoran (for faster flight) Dragonborn (Mind Aspect for the senses) Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage X/Shadow Sun Ninja X.

[Thurbane]

So, ToB seems to be the common answer, or MoMF.

Are these covering the original criteria for the challenge? Specifically ranged/area attacks?


Caster includes psionics, binding, soul melding, invocations, shadow casting, true speaking etc. You get what I mean, in case I have forgotten any specifics. Factotum is borderline, but should probably also be excluded.
Race/template combo should be no more than LA +2, and preferably no RHD. (i.e. no VoP dragons or rakshasa please!)
Build should be competent at melee and able to deal respectable damage. Ability in skillmonkeying is a bonus.
Build should be able to achieve those things normally left lacking by VoP - primarily flight and some form of effective ranged or area attack.

ToB also feels a little close to casting, with maneuvers and such...but I suppose it slips through my initial criteria.

[Kennisiou]

Wildshape Ranger 16/Scout 4 is also pretty viable with VoP. Turn into a fleshrender and skirmish on a billion hits. One level dip in MoMF to get shifter's speech in exchange for the final favored enemy if you like.

[AMFV]

You could definitely hit all of that with a Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Legacy Champion 4.

You'd be a Strongheart Halfling, take the spellless paladin variant from complete champion (probably picking up mounted combat or one of those feats). Then you'd take Dragonsteed, which would give you a mount with a breath weapon (which would do area damage), and the ability to fly (using your mount).

You could even have your mount also take vow of poverty, if you felt like it, and have double poverty vows. Which would actually work better than you might imagine, it's not a perfect solution, but I believe it hits all of your criteria, and it's pretty cool. Even if it is a build that's been built before.

[Thurbane]

While rangers and paladins are not primary casters, they are casters.

Unless you take the CW or CC options to swap out casting for feats.

[AMFV]

While rangers and paladins are not primary casters, they are casters.

Unless you take the CW or CC options to swap out casting for feats.

I did that in mine, not even one level of silly spellcasting.

[Gwendol]

I just thought I'd throw a build challenge out there.

It's widely accepted that VoP is garbage, and that the only builds that can succeed in spite of VoP are full casters (Druids, mainly).

My build challenge is this - can you make a VoP build that is a somewhat viable character, and that isn't a caster?

For this challenge, following guidelines apply:

Caster includes psionics, binding, soul melding, invocations, shadow casting, true speaking etc. You get what I mean, in case I have forgotten any specifics. Factotum is borderline, but should probably also be excluded.
Race/template combo should be no more than LA +2, and preferably no RHD. (i.e. no VoP dragons or rakshasa please!)
Build should be competent at melee and able to deal respectable damage. Ability in skillmonkeying is a bonus.
Build should be able to achieve those things normally left lacking by VoP - primarily flight and some form of effective ranged or area attack.


What can you fine people throw at me?

Cheers - T

Dragonborn goliath barbarian (Bear totem) 4/FotF 3/Bear warrior 1/Warshaper 4/Bear warrior X

CON to AC, and eventually quite a lot of NA, uses IUS or a club or similar weapon at first, but can eventually get whatever natural weapon through warshaper. Some required feats gained as bonus, but not all, so flaws are likely required, and even having to switch to human. At some point a fifth level of barbarian could be considered to get the +4 bonus to grapple checks.

EDIT: As for area attack I forgot about it but both War Hulk and Hulking Hurler should be available at the endgame and provide means for area attacks.

[Talya]

So, ToB seems to be the common answer, or MoMF.

Are these covering the original criteria for the challenge? Specifically ranged/area attacks?



Swordsages have crossbow proficiency and VOP allows crossbows (Simple Weapons.)

I'm fairly sure there are a few area-effect strikes, too. Or at least multi-target strikes.

Maneuvers may feel like casting, but that's kinda the point here - the things you NEED that make VOP a bad idea are basically spellcasting from items. Anything capable of overcoming this issue needs access to that spellcasting from a non-item source. Since you've specifically ruled out spellcasting, that leaves us scrounging around for "things that are replicating the same spells that the items we've lost are, that are not spellcasting."

Of necessity, those will feel a little bit like spellcasting.

[Gwendol]

Does the runescarred berserker qualify as a caster?

[tricktroller]

would a soulknife soulbow be considered a caster? They don't really use spells of any sort they just have psionic focus and weapons. Granted it isn't a great class but getting a bunch of bonuses for free probably helps them more than hurts them.

[Thurbane]

Does the runescarred berserker qualify as a caster?
Having a quick look, I would say it falls into much the same category as the Factotum - borderline as to whether it would qualify as a caster for this challenge.

would a soulknife soulbow be considered a caster? They don't really use spells of any sort they just have psionic focus and weapons. Granted it isn't a great class but getting a bunch of bonuses for free probably helps them more than hurts them.
I'm not that familiar with the psionic classes, but a quick look seems like Soulknife/Soulbow should be fine, as they don't seem to manifest powers as such.

Maneuvers may feel like casting, but that's kinda the point here - the things you NEED that make VOP a bad idea are basically spellcasting from items. Anything capable of overcoming this issue needs access to that spellcasting from a non-item source. Since you've specifically ruled out spellcasting, that leaves us scrounging around for "things that are replicating the same spells that the items we've lost are, that are not spellcasting."

Of necessity, those will feel a little bit like spellcasting.
That makes sense.

I guess the big one is flying - once you can fly up to a flying opponent to melee it, ranged/area attacks aren't as vital.

Still, for this challenge, a viable ranged or area attack is a definite bonus.

[nedz]

I take it Warlock and DFA are out ?

Half Fey (2) / Ranger 3 / Horizon Walker 10 /
(Half Fey from Savage Progressions)
Focus on Unarmed combat (TWF)
You have Flight, Dim Door, Skills and lots of SLAs
You do need to up your damage via feats and probably exit into Rogue.
Half Fey (2) / Ranger 3 / Horizon Walker 8 / Wilderness Rogue 7

[Thurbane]

I take it Warlock and DFA are out ?
Yes, invocation using classes are considered casters for this challenge.

[JeminiZero]

My analysis: The main things magic provides that VoP misses out on are:
1) Flight (many ways to get this)
2) Senses (until level 18 when he suddenly gets true seeing)
3) Protection against certain exotic effects (ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, mind control, stunning)
4) Healing (technically, can be outsourced to the party healbot)

If you can stack all of these onto a strong melee character, you should have a viable character.

My take: Immunities and healing can be done by Evolved Undead Necropolitan, in the following steps
1) Do the Necropolitan ritual to start with a level 1 undead that is 3000 XP short
2) Later, on level 3, gain the evolved template, and buy it off immediately for another 3000 XP (obviously this needs DM permission but is *possible* by RAW)
3) This leaves you with a 0 LA character that is 6000 XP short, immune to most exotic effects, and can fast heal between/during fights. Also has Darkvision, which takes care of *some* sensory problems.

How about race/class?

Going undead has the huge drawback of removing con bonus, and leaving you with a d12 HD. To optimize this you should pick a class with low-ish HD (e.g. d8). Two tier 3 classes stand out: Swordsage (unarmed or otherwise) and Wildshape Ranger. Both have enough skill points to double up as skill monkeys of some sort.

For swordsage, while you can get Flight by Balance in the Sky, it is IMHO better get Natural flight (Raptoran or Dragon Wings feat. Dragonborn probably does not work since you are undead) and then abuse Fly-by-attack to make your standard action maneuvers and then ending your turn some distance away to prevent enemy full attack. If you want to skill monkey as well, start as Changeling or Silverbrow Human to qualify for Able Learner.

Changeling is incredibly flavorful, since you can use it to disguise your undead nature, and walk around looking normal. Take a flaw, to start off with Able Dragontouched and Dragon Wings. You walk around looking normal. But when the fight starts, you suddenly transform into some sort of undead angel (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/JeminiZero/media/AngelOfDecaySmall.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0).

If you want to skill monkey on a Changeling chassis, then take a 2nd flaw to start with Able Learner, and splash a level in trap-finding Ranger for a Search-Disable Changeling Undead Angel (or some other class for other skill focus).

Edit: Although all this feat consumption does delay when you take VoP.

Wildshape Ranger/MoMF is similar, but since it can disguise itself as a squirrel or something, relying on Changeling to get around without being recognized as an undead abomination is less necessary. Really, wildshape takes care of many things including flight. Again, if you want to skill monkey, start off as Human for Able Learner, to keep your class skills cheap when taking MoMF.

[Emperor Tippy]

How about race/class?

Going undead has the huge drawback of removing con bonus, and leaving you with a d12 HD. To optimize this you should pick a class with low-ish HD (e.g. d8). Two tier 3 classes stand out: Swordsage (unarmed or otherwise) and Wildshape Ranger. Both have enough skill points to double up as skill monkeys of some sort.
That's not a drawback, its a feature. Gray Elf with Faerie Mysteries Initiate and you are effectively picking up +2 Dex, +2 Int, 3 feats, and Int to HP all for the low cost of -2 Str. So very much superior to human (the Int bonus negates the excess skill point gain, Chaos Shuffle negates the excess feat, and the attribute bonuses exceed the penalty significantly).


For swordsage, while you can get Flight by Balance in the Sky, it is IMHO better get Natural flight (Raptoran or Dragon Wings feat. Dragonborn probably does not work since you are undead) and then abuse Fly-by-attack to make your standard action maneuvers and then ending your turn some distance away to prevent enemy full attack. If you want to skill monkey as well, start as Changeling or Silverbrow Human to qualify for Able Learner.
Natural Flight is only superior to Balance on the Sky in that you get it at a far earlier level and that it functions in AMF's.

[JeminiZero]

Natural Flight is only superior to Balance on the Sky in that you get it at a far earlier level and that it functions in AMF's.

IIRC Balance in the sky provides air walk rather than flight. So might not qualify for flyby attack. You also get pseudo flight on level 3 as described here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16588085&postcount=20
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16589662&postcount=29

[Kraklen88]

I would do something a little different. I am thinking:

Raptoran Monk X/Warblade X/Bloodstorm Blade

Add a 2 level dip of Paladin for plus to saves and you are in business. You get flight, "magical abilities" from Warblade, better AC, and ranged attacks from Bloodstorm Blade.

Now if you can convince a DM of Powerful Build qualifying you for Size: Large requirements on PrC's, I would try a Half-Ogre, Goliath, or Half-Giant with levels in Ranger (wildshape) and Hulking Hurler/War Hulk.

None of these are optimized at the moment but they are ideas.

[Emperor Tippy]

IIRC Balance in the sky provides air walk rather than flight. So might not qualify for flyby attack.

You also don't count as flying for a number of effects that target or specifying flight. You also have no concerns with your carrying capacity or movement type.

Frankly, continuous airwalk tends to be better than regular flight for most characters. Especially if the flight option only gives you average maneuverability. Good is about a wash in regards to maneuverability while perfect is better.

---
Hmm, another method to gain flight. Have a Psion buy a Shadesteel Golem, turn it human temporarily, true mind switch with it, true mindswitch with your VoP character, and then true mindswitch with its original body.

You now get a 90 ft. perfect fly speed and all kinds of other nifty bonuses without breaking your vow.

[Thaxton 76]

VoP Monk /Paladin with Ghostwalker and you have great AC, great damage, and it is a lot of fun. You will be the ultimate good guy and the best undead slayer ever. When you can wear a halo and radiate sunlight from every pore of your body, oh yeah its a bad day to be undead. The best part is none of it can be taken from you. Oh and as for the flight thing take the feat that gives you the advanced paladin mount that flies. So in closing 20/ Monk 10/ Paladin 10/ Ghostwalker and you will be doing just fine.

Some of the Ghostwalker abilities are spell like, but they are abilities not actual casting. Hope that still fits.

[Talya]

Oh and as for the flight thing take the feat that gives you the advanced paladin mount that flies.

You need a enough levels of Paladin to be safe in the air, a paladin 10 has a fragile mount.

Anyway, it's a valid point, and it doesn't even need a feat. The alternate paladin mounts is a DMG suggestion at DM discretion.

I'm not sure two horrible classes that aren't viable to start with (Paladin and Monk) suddenly become viable when stuck together with the even worse Vow of Poverty. But I don't know the Ghostwalk thing...

[cakellene]

Stonechild

Wild Monk 8/ Swordsage 4/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Warshaper 5.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm not sure two horrible classes that aren't viable to start with (Paladin and Monk) suddenly become viable when stuck together with the even worse Vow of Poverty.

What are you talking about? Everyone knows that Monk is a great two level class. All claims that it has more than two levels are baseless lies made up by its detractors.

[Kaje]

Dwarf Wild Shape Trapfinding Ranger 1 / Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Monk 2 / Fist of the Forest 2 / Deepwarden 2 / Bear Warrior 10 / Pious Templar 1


Feats (without VoP feats worked in)
1 - Endurance
1 - Great Fortitude [Flaw)
1 - Vow of Poverty [Flaw]
3 - Steadfast Determination
3 - Power Attack [Fighter]
4 - Improved Unarmed Strike [Monk]
4 - Improved Grapple [Monk]
5 - Combat Reflexes [Monk]
6 - Extra Rage
8 - Track [Deepwarden]
9 - Instantaneous Rage
12 - Multiattack
15 - Weapon Focus (Claw)
18- True Believer

[Sheogoroth]

I once made a Dragonborn-Arctic-Proto-Mongrelfolk Fighter 1 Forsaker 9 with VOP.
262 health and 46 AC with Full Mechanus Gear + Tower Shield at level 10.

Pretty heavy cheese, but it was for a highly optimized campaign rendition of 3.5-ified Barrier Peaks.

He did have 1 cha and 5 int, but it did make for hilarious Role-play opportunities, went by the name of "DERP", the DM allowed me to add an additional language that he would drop into when fearful called "Derpish" that consisted of loud babbling, squeaking, and gurgling.

[cakellene]

I once made a Dragonborn-Arctic-Proto-Mongrelfolk Fighter 1 Forsaker 9 with VOP.
262 health and 46 AC with Full Mechanus Gear + Tower Shield at level 10.

Pretty heavy cheese, but it was for a highly optimized campaign rendition of 3.5-ified Barrier Peaks.

He did have 1 cha and 5 int, but it did make for hilarious Role-play opportunities, went by the name of "DERP", the DM allowed me to add an additional language that he would drop into when fearful called "Derpish" that consisted of loud babbling, squeaking, and gurgling.

Wouldn't wearing armor violate vow?

[Talya]

Dwarf Wild Shape Trapfinding Ranger 1 / Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Monk 2 / Fist of the Forest 2 / Deepwarden 2 / Bear Warrior 10 / Pious Templar 1


Feats (without VoP feats worked in)
1 - Endurance
1 - Great Fortitude [Flaw)
1 - Vow of Poverty [Flaw]
3 - Steadfast Determination
3 - Power Attack [Fighter]
4 - Improved Unarmed Strike [Monk]
4 - Improved Grapple [Monk]
5 - Combat Reflexes [Monk]
6 - Extra Rage
8 - Track [Deepwarden]
9 - Instantaneous Rage
12 - Multiattack
15 - Weapon Focus (Claw)
18- True Believer

you're missing the pereq feat for VoP, sacred vow. (was sacred cow until I overruled damnyouautocorrect.)

[Gwendol]

Dragonborn Goliath bear totem barbarian 4/FotF 3/Bear warrior 1/Warshaper 4/Hulking hurler 3/Bear Warrior 4, Dragon Wing aspect


1. Imp Unarmed Strike, Sacred Vow (Flaw), Vow of Poverty (Flaw), Toughness (Bonus)
2. Imp Grapple (Bonus)
3. Power Attack, Great Fortitude (Bonus)
4.
5. FotF 1
6. PBS
7.
8. Bear Warrior 1
9. Warshaper 1, Weapon Focus (javelin)
10.
11.
12. Extra rage
13. Hulking Hurler 1
14. Area attack
15. Combat reflexes, Overburdened heave
16. Bear Warrior 2
17.
18. Multiattack


He can fly, and while raging qualify for the hulking hurler. Got a little hulk thing going with Goliath Mountain rage. Hurling rocks should be possible also in bear form, and offers both ranged and area attack options besides the extended range from Warshaper.

[JeminiZero]

you're missing the pereq feat for VoP, sacred vow. (was sacred cow until I overruled damnyouautocorrect.)
Annddd I realize that I forgot to account for both Sacred Vow and VoP when planning my Evolved Necropolitan Changeling Swordsage with Dragon Wings. Taking all those flight feats will likely delay VoP until level 12...

That said, the challenge apparently does not specify WHEN you have to take VoP.

[zilonox]

2 levels of Eidolon (from the Ghostwalk book) will net you 2 bonus feats which can be used to take Ghost Glide and Ghost Flight. This gives a fly speed at your land speed with good maneuverability - even when fully manifested. Not to mention you are now a non-undead ghost. Mix with your favorite melee types that have already been mentioned. Use the "No Calling" variant and you can be as ghostly as you like (possessing people or dead bodies, scaring people with moans/visage, move stuff around, make things out of ectoplasm, etc). :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

Dragonborn Goliath bear totem barbarian 4/FotF 3/Bear warrior 1/Warshaper 4/Hulking hurler 3/Bear Warrior 4, Dragon Wing aspect


1. Imp Unarmed Strike, Sacred Vow (Flaw), Vow of Poverty (Flaw), Toughness (Bonus)
2. Imp Grapple (Bonus)
3. Power Attack, Great Fortitude (Bonus)
4.
5. FotF 1
6. PBS
7.
8. Bear Warrior 1
9. Warshaper 1, Weapon Focus (javelin)
10.
11.
12. Extra rage
13. Hulking Hurler 1
14. Area attack
15. Combat reflexes, Overburdened heave
16. Bear Warrior 2
17.
18. Multiattack


He can fly, and while raging qualify for the hulking hurler. Got a little hulk thing going with Goliath Mountain rage. Hurling rocks should be possible also in bear form, and offers both ranged and area attack options besides the extended range from Warshaper.
This is one of my favorites so far!

[danzibr]

For the lulz I would even have the character insist that he is a Monk with the Factotum and Swordsage bits all being his "secret monk skills".
This actually did make me lol. Literally. Thanks Tippy.

[Gwendol]

This is one of my favorites so far!

Thanks! I was contemplating Warhulk but felt No Time To Think might impact FotF (can't use Survival reliably to actually live off the land), and so took the bullet and went for Hulking Hurler instead. There is some room to pick up another class, or feats, for customization at the end, and I haven't added the bonus exalted feats from VoP.

[Emperor Tippy]

This actually did make me lol. Literally. Thanks Tippy.

You're welcome.